Atheism shattered in one second
- Thread starter Steyn
- Start date
Zuburdust i agree. V good comments dost
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Thats like a real estate agent telling me to invest all my life savings plus borrow money to buy a house that I cant see only until after I sign the contract and pay him the money.
Sorry buddy but sounds like a fraud.
Sorry buddy but sounds like a fraud.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I wonder if you feel any shame at all when you lie so blatantly. What good is a belief when you have to knowingly lie and act dishonest to make your point. I wonder if you have just become so dheet from dishonesty that you have become numb to shame.
I never said Greeks knew about embryology that we know today. I said the embryology that is mentioned in the Quran is the same as the Embryology that the Greeks taught in schools in Persia and Arabia during the time of Muhammad. The 4 steps of embryology in Quran was word for word copy of Galen's 4 steps of Embryology, only that Galen put more details that the Quran.
Since Greeks were wrong in most of their information, that means, Quran, which simply copied the Greeks, also copied the wrong parts. Thats why they say naqal k liye bhi aqal chahiye.
1. In stage 1: Galen and Quran says Semen fluid (Nufta) transforms into a blood clot (Alaqa).
We now know this is scientifically false as its not the semen but rather a single sperm cell that triggers the female egg.
2. Greeks and Quran say Bones came first and then were later clothed in "flesh"
From modern embryology we know this is false as bones and muscle are formed simultaneously.
3. No mention of Sperm cell or female Egg that is main part and start of embryonic process in Galen's books. Not surprisingly it is not mentioned in Quran either.
4. Quran claims humans were created from a clot of congealed blood.
This is wrong as we know blood clots cannot be transformed into sperm, it is just dead tissue. (this is probably a misconception coming from observation of women's period blood and miscarriage by physicians during time of Muhammad).
Now that it was obvious to modern scholars the blunders in the Quran regarding Embryology, they changed the translation in the new versions from clot of congealed blood, to hanging clot or leech clot. These words do not exist in the older translation therefore are a forgery. But even if we accept this, it will not make any linguistic sense.
Also we know that not all embryos are hanging from the inside walls. All embryos in the initial stage are not connected to the mother, they are a floating amniotic fluid.
I never said Greeks knew about embryology that we know today. I said the embryology that is mentioned in the Quran is the same as the Embryology that the Greeks taught in schools in Persia and Arabia during the time of Muhammad. The 4 steps of embryology in Quran was word for word copy of Galen's 4 steps of Embryology, only that Galen put more details that the Quran.
Since Greeks were wrong in most of their information, that means, Quran, which simply copied the Greeks, also copied the wrong parts. Thats why they say naqal k liye bhi aqal chahiye.
1. In stage 1: Galen and Quran says Semen fluid (Nufta) transforms into a blood clot (Alaqa).
We now know this is scientifically false as its not the semen but rather a single sperm cell that triggers the female egg.
2. Greeks and Quran say Bones came first and then were later clothed in "flesh"
From modern embryology we know this is false as bones and muscle are formed simultaneously.
3. No mention of Sperm cell or female Egg that is main part and start of embryonic process in Galen's books. Not surprisingly it is not mentioned in Quran either.
4. Quran claims humans were created from a clot of congealed blood.
This is wrong as we know blood clots cannot be transformed into sperm, it is just dead tissue. (this is probably a misconception coming from observation of women's period blood and miscarriage by physicians during time of Muhammad).
Now that it was obvious to modern scholars the blunders in the Quran regarding Embryology, they changed the translation in the new versions from clot of congealed blood, to hanging clot or leech clot. These words do not exist in the older translation therefore are a forgery. But even if we accept this, it will not make any linguistic sense.
Also we know that not all embryos are hanging from the inside walls. All embryos in the initial stage are not connected to the mother, they are a floating amniotic fluid.
Bc fraud kae buchae aetheist stfup now. Please dont reply munhoose aetheist
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am sorry if i refuse to take you serious after the blunders you did with uhm uhm "redundant genetic diseases" and living amino acids.
But i have gone through this with you before. And there's no point to this. The word Alaqah has three meanings all which befit the stages of embryonic development, the muscle and bone i have explained or the videos i have linked to you explained. You reject what i say or link to you and insist on Galenic embryology. It's also quite funny how you have to stretch the reality to connect Islam to Greeks heh.
Mountain pegs, pharaoh's preservation, big bang, the barrier between water, water cycle, the Holy Quran challenge etc etc. everything was copied from Greeks or ancient civilizations huh ?. Rejecting everything wrong with those civilizations and copying only the correct knowledge. That's miraculous in itself if we were to believe that.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Well the only meaning that I came accross is a congealed clot of blood, now we all now blood is not involved anywhere in the embreyonic process, and a clot of blood is just dead cells. Dead cells or blood cannot be used to make sperm. So one of the three js obviously wrong.
Can you show me any original tafsirs which show other two meanings?
Can you show me any original tafsirs which show other two meanings?
NasNY
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Just checking don't need to get all huff and puff about it.
Also stop using the word 'WE' you haven't done anything, you only have faith in what was told to you. you haven't even read an article on wi-fi.
therefore, believe what you like and accept others in whatever they believe in , isn't that a definition of enlightenment.
Atheist have the biggest Holier than Thou attitude than any religion in the world.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
By "We" I mean the human race. Science is just knowledge accumulated by humans.
Its not based on faith, anyone can study computer networks and verify that wifi is real and its effects are real.
Actually you don't need to do that, you probably use wifi on a daily basis and know that it works based on experience with it. This is not faith, its based on independently verifiable evidence that can be measured and recreated and it works.
None of this applies to "God", you cannot verify it independently, you cannot measure its effects or its absence.
Atheism is not a religion. You are also atheistic about Lord Krishna... Doesn't mean disbelief in Lord Krishna is a religion of its own. Atheism is simply rejection of a belief, usually on the grounds that there is no reason or evidence to believe in it.
Its not based on faith, anyone can study computer networks and verify that wifi is real and its effects are real.
Actually you don't need to do that, you probably use wifi on a daily basis and know that it works based on experience with it. This is not faith, its based on independently verifiable evidence that can be measured and recreated and it works.
None of this applies to "God", you cannot verify it independently, you cannot measure its effects or its absence.
Atheism is not a religion. You are also atheistic about Lord Krishna... Doesn't mean disbelief in Lord Krishna is a religion of its own. Atheism is simply rejection of a belief, usually on the grounds that there is no reason or evidence to believe in it.
NasNY
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Quran answers your questions about measurable proof of the existence of Allah, I can post the quotes, but an intelligent and inquisitive mind like yours will not be satisfied ignoring the the knowledge in the Quran, let me know when you find your answers.
Modern Atheism have developed their arguments against Christianity, these arguments fail miserably when they go against Islam. Once again I can tell you but a person like you who is a seeker of knowledge will have to find the answers for yourself,
In my teens i had a few questions as well, as i created doubt for myself, i dove into Islam (intellectually) I found all my answers and them some.
Islam is a way of life not a religion, nowhere in Islam it says you devote your life to Islam like a monk, there is no conflict between Islam and Science,
Do not judge Islam with the followers of different cultures, Islam is not a group religion, it is a way of life for each individual.
I can go on an on, but seek answers for yourselves. Or Just ignore the knowledge and stay at your level.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You know the funny thing is he's actually the person that brought me even closer to Islam and increased my knowledge about the miracles of Holy Quran. A few months ago, he posted a bunch of lies about Holy Prophet Muhammad (saww) tried to show the buddies of Abu jahl especially Uqba ibn Abu Muayt among others as some innocent souls who were geniuses of his time and murdered because they posed some threat.
I didn't know who these people were but i couldn't believe it to be true. When i researched, my God, these people were Satan in human form. They threw excrement on the blessed body of Prophet Muhammad (saww) while he was praying! All ganged up!.
Then his lies about Holy Quran. Man, oh man. He's not someone who is ignorant but he's here on a mission to deface Islam and challenge the faith of weak Muslims. The proof of this i saw when he tried to make those satan appear to be angels, i have only seen abu jahl and uqba shown that way in anti Islamic propaganda books which surprise, surprise, he quoted verbatim from.
Then another thing was when he said proudly he's a friend of a guy who has a youtube channel dedicated to spreading lies about Islam. The classic misquotation of kill the infidels where you see them, sun setting into muddy water and forcefully associating ISIS to Muslims. The channel makes mocking videos of every religious scholar, islam and spreads hatred and guess what, this Vitamin_C guy proudly claims to be his friend. Any sane person would distance themselves from an obvious channel dedicated to hate and lies.
SubhanAllah, Allah has made even the enemies of Islam useful. If it wasn't for his lies, i would've never known about Islam and my faith stronger like it is now. May Allah make my faith even stronger.
So brother, don't consider him your average normal person, he's here to spread lies and has an agenda. And he has more knowledge against Islam than your average Muslim has about Islam. That's what he tried to do with me, posted like a book in a post attacking Islam when i first met him and i was like Ya Allah, what is he saying about Prophet Muhammad (saww). He knew Uqba was a Shaytaan but he lied to my face about him being an innocent. Shows you his intentions right away.
NasNY
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am aware of these Planners, i am on this forum since 2013, they only fool themselves.
Most of them ran away.
My response is directed towards other minds and minerals who may be reading my response, not necessary to a single Vitamin.
People like him create more defenders of Islam on this forum, so its good to tolerate them.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Quran only contains things that you would expect from 7th century Arabs...
Vague claims, threats of inhumane punishment after turning ever page,
Knowledge only limited to what was known in 7th century Arabia. Slavery is not haram but eating pork is haram. Inhumane and barbaric punishment for petty crimes such as theft (even Islamic Republic of Pakistan doesn't want to enforce them).
Books are not an evidence to the truth about nature around you, unless those books are pointing towards an evidence. An evidence is something in the world that we can study and it leads us in the direction of a conclusion.
The difference between how rational people think and how irrational people think is this:
Rational people study the evidence and follow the evidence to reach a conclusion.
Irrational people reach a conclusion first and then twist information or try to use vagueness to their favour to twist evidence to support the conclusion they have already decided on. This is not how you reach the truth.
I understand that you were born in a Muslim family and grow up being indoctrinated about your particular religion since you were child, so was I. But you have to understand that this is not the way truth works. Just because by sheer chance you were born in a Muslim family, does not make Islam true. And you have to be open to the possibility that you are wrong, just like over 600,000 other Gods that have been worshipped at some point in history.
I was arguing with another post on this thread about Embryology and he could not give an answer when I told him about mistakes in Quran about embryology. He said there are 3 meaning of the word Alaqa, when the original tafsirs only show 1, which was blood clot. It is common knowledge that at no point in the embryonic process is an embryo a blood clot.
So I searched online and see what Muslims say about this mistake in Quran... I saw a video of Zakir Naik and he is saying that you have to take all the meanings of the word Alaqa, since revelation of Quran until 21st century because Quran is revealed for all times... Can you honestly tell me as a intelligent person that this makes any sense? So every-time science makes a discovery, you can simply change the meaning of the Arabic words in the Quran to make it seem that Quran is correct and then fool people and say who would have known 1400 years ago? Obviously not the Quran if you changed the translation in 20th Century.
Then someone here told me that Quran talks about big bang and the universe is expanding... I looked up orignal tafsirs and they all said the verse says the world is an expanse (vaste) just like it says in other religions.
Then I checked one version of the Quran which instead of expanse it said in a bracket " (expanding it). And people are using that translation to say look Quran says universe is expanding... Who would have known 1400 years ago?
The expanding universe model was made public sometime after 1920s... I look at the date of the translation and it says the translation was published after 1929 by a British man living in Indian subcontinent (A time when expanding universe was a very hot topic in the UK and US)
Almost every where I look in Quran and find blunders, there is also a cover up that I find... Changing the translation of Arabic words in Quran, rejecting Sahih Hadith, and then trying to claim that this was known 1400 years ago which is a blantant lie, all you need to do is open sahih hadith, old translations/tafsirs or just ask a friend who can speak fluent Arabic to tell you what the verse is actually saying.
These mistake are expected given the limited knowledge of the Arabs in 7th century Arabia, but I do not like the dishonesty of Modern so called Scholars, who use dishonesty and lies to get away from these mistakes.
Vague claims, threats of inhumane punishment after turning ever page,
Knowledge only limited to what was known in 7th century Arabia. Slavery is not haram but eating pork is haram. Inhumane and barbaric punishment for petty crimes such as theft (even Islamic Republic of Pakistan doesn't want to enforce them).
Books are not an evidence to the truth about nature around you, unless those books are pointing towards an evidence. An evidence is something in the world that we can study and it leads us in the direction of a conclusion.
The difference between how rational people think and how irrational people think is this:
Rational people study the evidence and follow the evidence to reach a conclusion.
Irrational people reach a conclusion first and then twist information or try to use vagueness to their favour to twist evidence to support the conclusion they have already decided on. This is not how you reach the truth.
I understand that you were born in a Muslim family and grow up being indoctrinated about your particular religion since you were child, so was I. But you have to understand that this is not the way truth works. Just because by sheer chance you were born in a Muslim family, does not make Islam true. And you have to be open to the possibility that you are wrong, just like over 600,000 other Gods that have been worshipped at some point in history.
I was arguing with another post on this thread about Embryology and he could not give an answer when I told him about mistakes in Quran about embryology. He said there are 3 meaning of the word Alaqa, when the original tafsirs only show 1, which was blood clot. It is common knowledge that at no point in the embryonic process is an embryo a blood clot.
So I searched online and see what Muslims say about this mistake in Quran... I saw a video of Zakir Naik and he is saying that you have to take all the meanings of the word Alaqa, since revelation of Quran until 21st century because Quran is revealed for all times... Can you honestly tell me as a intelligent person that this makes any sense? So every-time science makes a discovery, you can simply change the meaning of the Arabic words in the Quran to make it seem that Quran is correct and then fool people and say who would have known 1400 years ago? Obviously not the Quran if you changed the translation in 20th Century.
Then someone here told me that Quran talks about big bang and the universe is expanding... I looked up orignal tafsirs and they all said the verse says the world is an expanse (vaste) just like it says in other religions.
Then I checked one version of the Quran which instead of expanse it said in a bracket " (expanding it). And people are using that translation to say look Quran says universe is expanding... Who would have known 1400 years ago?
The expanding universe model was made public sometime after 1920s... I look at the date of the translation and it says the translation was published after 1929 by a British man living in Indian subcontinent (A time when expanding universe was a very hot topic in the UK and US)
Almost every where I look in Quran and find blunders, there is also a cover up that I find... Changing the translation of Arabic words in Quran, rejecting Sahih Hadith, and then trying to claim that this was known 1400 years ago which is a blantant lie, all you need to do is open sahih hadith, old translations/tafsirs or just ask a friend who can speak fluent Arabic to tell you what the verse is actually saying.
These mistake are expected given the limited knowledge of the Arabs in 7th century Arabia, but I do not like the dishonesty of Modern so called Scholars, who use dishonesty and lies to get away from these mistakes.
Last edited:
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Why do you ignore the Holy Quran challenge then? Why couldn't the Arabs at the time beat it and why haven't anyone beaten all these centuries later.
You keep saying evidence, evidence but evidence is useless when you reject it.
Also you keep mentioning this 6000 gods to support your argument but it's a fallacy. There is only one God and every major religion points to that, even pegan Hindus say they worship one God but these million idols of theirs are just so they can physically see god when they're worshipping. Zakir Naik has shown how every religion points to Muhammad (saww) and one God.
So this doesn't hold much weight because it's obvious no matter which religion you follow, they all have one God.
Again, this is a fallacy spread by that friend of yours or maybe it is your channel, who knows.
You will never see any enemy of Islam attack the Quranic challenge. Interesting huh? The book has fallacies according to these dum dums but they can't face its challenge.
PS: I have responded to your embryology comments but it's not much use if you reject everything.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Why do you ignore the Holy Quran challenge then? Why couldn't the Arabs at the time beat it and why haven't anyone beaten all these centuries later.
You keep saying evidence, evidence but evidence is useless when you reject it.
Also you keep mentioning this 6000 gods to support your argument but it's a fallacy. There is only one God and every major religion points to that, even pegan Hindus say they worship one God but these million idols of theirs are just so they can physically see god when they're worshipping. Zakir Naik has shown how every religion points to Muhammad (saww) and one God.
So this doesn't hold much weight because it's obvious no matter which religion you follow, they all have one God.
Again, this is a fallacy spread by that friend of yours or maybe it is your channel, who knows.
You will never see any enemy of Islam attack the Quranic challenge. Interesting huh? The book has fallacies according to these dum dums but they can't face its challenge.
PS: I have responded to your embryology comments but it's not much use if you reject everything.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The Holy Quran Challenge is not a challenge. You can call a Zebra a horse all you want doesn't make it a horse.
A challenge has to be specific and there has to be objective criteria that when met would mean that the challenge has been completed. You need to have an independent judge who can verify that the criteria has been met. With the so called Quran Challenge, you have none of that.
Saying can you make any book as good as Quran or find a wife as good as mine or find a dog as loyal as mine are subjective and you cannot call that a challenge. Its just rhetoric.
A challenge has to be specific and there has to be objective criteria that when met would mean that the challenge has been completed. You need to have an independent judge who can verify that the criteria has been met. With the so called Quran Challenge, you have none of that.
Saying can you make any book as good as Quran or find a wife as good as mine or find a dog as loyal as mine are subjective and you cannot call that a challenge. Its just rhetoric.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
No you haven't... I asked you to send me original Tafsirs that say that there 3 meanings of the word Alaqa... I am still waiting for your response...
You cannot take a translation from 21st century and then claim that this is what the Quran was saying 1400 years ago... Its blatantly dishonest.
You cannot take a translation from 21st century and then claim that this is what the Quran was saying 1400 years ago... Its blatantly dishonest.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You have provided none... Claims in a book or prophesies are not evidence. Evidence is something in the outside world that you can use to support the claims in the Quran. The Quran on its own is not evidence but a claim.
Vitamin_C
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It's not subjective. See, when you close your ears and yell la la la then how would you understand anything. It's very simple and very objectively measurable. Do what the Holy Quran has done ie imitate it or copy it if you can. In today's age, it should be easy right.
Several Arab and Persian poets of repute are recorded in authentic tradition to have tried to imitate Quran in prose or poetry
I will give you only two examples representing extreme ends of the spectrum of Quran Imitators
TOMFOOLERY : One Arab poet shortly after Prophet conquered Makkah or after his passing claimed he had made ten verses like the holy Quran. Not only that, that he received divine revelations like the Quran. This is translation of only two of his verses. He tried to fulfill the linguistic bars and this is the meaning he got: 1- “O he frog! And O she frog! 2- Neither are you completely aquatic, nor dweller of land…!”
HARDWORD : The latest attempt is in form of “Al Furqan” mentioned in answer before mine. Al Furqan is unable to meet even 10% of the criteria that Quran poses and is full of historic fallacies.
I will start with a list of linguistic criteria that any spoken or written word needs to meet, merely to come close to the Noble Quran:
It must not be from the sixteen Al-Bihar (literally "Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): At-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Waafir, al-Kaamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafeef, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madeed, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook
It must not contain contradiction which is one of the criteria God has given us Himself: “Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.” (Quran 4:82)
It must contain information about the future i.e. Prophesies
It must contain scientific information which is unknown to us today and which will only be verified in the future sometime
It must literary be perfect
It must be powerfull like the Quran. (i.e. The Quran was so powerful that even when the pagans use to hear it they would stop in their way to listen to it. I have shown you examples of that above here are a few more: “At one occasion the Prophet (pbuh) was reciting the Chapter An-Najm in the Holy Kaaba. While reciting he came to a verse and prostrated and with him prostrated all the muslims and even all the non-believers, who were hiding and listening to the recitation, could not stop themselves from prostrating.” It has to have the sort of effect on people like the Quran had and has and will have forever on people.)
It must have the power to move people to tears on a regular basis
It must be such that people would never get bored of reading it even if they read it again and again. They must not get tired and fed up of it. (This is from my personal experience. This is the uniqueness of the Quran. I have heard of songs that really sound very sweet and beautifull. I use to hear them again and again on occasions and I remember coming to the point where I totally got disgusted with the song and bored of it. So much so that I would hate hearing it again. With the Quran it is not so at all. I have myself heard Surah Yasin recited by Qari Abdul Basit everyday, for months and not once have I got bored of it ever! Even now I feel like listening to it again and again. My thirst for it increases not decreases.)
It has to have the Power of giving mental and spiritual peace to whoever reads or listens to it
It must have the power of not only awe striking the listner or reader but also must be able to bring a change within the people individually and socially, just like the Quran brought change and a revolution
Three furthur criteria’s have been stated in the following verses by God Almighty himself: “.We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (God).” (Quran 24:34) i.e it must make things clear, must illustrate stories about the people passed away, and be an admonition for those who fear God
Must be historically accurate
Must be accurate with scientifically proven facts
Allah says also "….It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!" (Quran 41 44). So it must be a guide to those that believe
“This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God; 3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;” (Quran 2:2). It must guide those who fear God, believe in the unseen, are steadfast in prayer, spend out of what is provided for them. Anyone can guide the Fools!!!understand
It's amazing to me that people still reject it despite the obvious divine nature of it.
Oh i almost forgot, it must also have mathematically coordinated verses that if one word is misplaced, the whole book and surah lose its mathematical coordination. You didn't know that, did you? Alter one word of Holy Quran and all the mathematical counting and balance shatters which gives proof to it being unedited and uncorruptable.
