Javed Ahmad Ghamdi Threads - Collection

[butshikan]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

"How many rikaats do we have to offer in 5 prayers or how many Sijdaa or rikoh etc?????

[quote:3t2mukm1]Rest Allah Almighty is best aware what is going to happen so recourse is towards Him only.

If u can read in between the lines? I can give you a "befitting" answer! But this is not the concerned board. Only Allah knows what will happen?

I am just saying, can we not apply the same logic to read in between the lines of Quran (what we do to seek some thing from His resources in mentioned issues)?

"In between the lines of Quran" no such thing has been mentioned. So what is there to read. Now your query about rikaats and rikoh etc. You please keep one basic thing in your mind, that "Salaat" as an institution is oft-mentioned in Quran, whereas the "Return of Issa" (which no doubt is such a big event or going to be a big event), no such thing is mentioned. People resort to Hadiths for such things, unfortunately that "Source" is "disputed" and no one can deny that. Anyhow again, ONLY Allah knows the best, nothing in Quran of this incident. I think it is clear now.[/quote:3t2mukm1]
I think Bret Hawk has Pointed out clearly, what I was trying to say [hmmm]

@ Bret Hawk: JazakAllah brother!

 

[taul]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

@ bret hawk



--Jazak-Allah khair brother :) as there should never ever be a slightest doubt in the hearts and minds of any muslim whatsoever regarding the coming of Hazrat Eesa Alaihis-Salaam.

 

[Bret Hawk]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Brs Taul & Butshikan many thanks for your appreciation and kind words. [pk flag]

 

[babadeena]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Finally in the end I would like to mention one Ayaa here from Al Zukhruf, Chapter 43 Ayya 61;

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment) therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me this is a Straight Way.

@ Bret Hawk,
Salaam,
I do not wish to question the authenticity of Hadith Source and nor would like to be seeing as their rejecter or accepter with blind eyes. but I do wish to take on you the very much aya mentioned above. This is the only and one aya on which the advocates of Jesus coming second time build there thesis. Please show me in where in Quran the arabic word "Elim" has been translated as "sign". This intentional distorted translation of this arabic word "elim" itself is the proof that the same notion followers have no ground to stand. May I remind u that almost everyone if not everyone word has been oft-repeated or at least repeated in Quran. "Sign" gets other word from Quranic arabic and that is never any where used for "Elim". Moreover, whose statement is this (Isa (as)) or some other Prophet(as)?

"And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour." this is the correct translation and in the support of this verse check this verse please:
"Unto Him is referred (all) knowledge of the Hour" (41:47)
From where the word "sign" appears, only in those translators mind who translate or accept Quran through the prism of their "Pre-conceived Concept"

waslaam.

 

[such bolo]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Tanweer Sab...

Today we know that Mota Imam Malik is the only authentic book. Ghmadi is simply incredible.

Kindly elaborate this "ONLY"??

By ignoring the evidences of second arrival of Hazrat Isa Alaihssalam in the other books, he (Ghmadi) has concluded that Mota Imam Malik is more credible.

Mr. Ghamdi has simply rejected all aunthentic ahadeeth and books of ahadeeth (Bukhari, Muslim etc) and instead trying to say that Mota is more authantic.....(rediculous). I have never come across any scholar of old times who would have rejected the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim as whole....instead Alhamdulillah the whole ummah (ahlusunnah wal jamah) is agreed upon the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim as whole.

Any authentic narration of our Prophet Muhammad (sallal laauhu alaihi wasallam) whether in Mota or Bukhari or Muslim is as sacred as Ayat e Qurani...as in both cases we are getting guidline from Allah (subhanwautaallah)....

I think this is worst kind of Jihalat to say that if a narration is not present in Mota then that narration in other books is not credible....(what kind of criteria it is to judge the authenticity of hadeeth)...

Secondly Mr. Ghamdi simply rejecting an undisputed faith of muslim ummah... no Muslim scholar has ever rejected the second comming of Hazrat Isa (alaihissalam) and his second comming is quite evident from Quran and Hadeeth ...but the fact is Mr. Ghamdi is just trying to use his own intellect instead of getting guidance from Hadeeth and Salaf.

May Allah protect us from this fitnah...

To know more details please read the following book.

http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/ur/ih_books/ur_nozol_Isa_ibn_Marim.pdf

Also check the authentic tafseer of Quran from the following link..Tafseer e Quran printed and freely distributed by Shah Fahed Printing Press....Madinah Munawwarah, Saudi Arabia. To read online.

http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/ur/ih..._of_the_meaning_of_the_Holy_Quran_in_Urdu.pdf

 

[Zarb e Kaleem]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

I am surprised people are taking note of Ghamdi guys he is munkar e quran o ahadees he can say what he likes i dont even consider him a muslim.

 

[Bret Hawk]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Finally in the end I would like to mention one Ayaa here from Al Zukhruf, Chapter 43 Ayya 61;

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment) therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me this is a Straight Way.

@ Bret Hawk,
Salaam,
I do not wish to question the authenticity of Hadith Source and nor would like to be seeing as their rejecter or accepter with blind eyes. but I do wish to take on you the very much aya mentioned above. This is the only and one aya on which the advocates of Jesus coming second time build there thesis. Please show me in where in Quran the arabic word "Elim" has been translated as "sign". This intentional distorted translation of this arabic word "elim" itself is the proof that the same notion followers have no ground to stand. May I remind u that almost everyone if not everyone word has been oft-repeated or at least repeated in Quran. "Sign" gets other word from Quranic arabic and that is never any where used for "Elim". Moreover, whose statement is this (Isa (as)) or some other Prophet(as)?

"And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour." this is the correct translation and in the support of this verse check this verse please:
"Unto Him is referred (all) knowledge of the Hour" (41:47)
From where the word "sign" appears, only in those translators mind who translate or accept Quran through the prism of their "Pre-conceived Concept"

waslaam.

Walikum Salam Br Baba Deena


I think the translation which you presented cant fits in this Ayaa karmia due to the non relevance of its preceding Ayaats where the subject matter is clearly focused on Prophet Essa AS. For instance lets see the 59th Ayaa of this same sura of Al Zukhruf;


He (Jesus) was no more than a servant We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.


Note the pronoun Huwa here in this Ayaa and now jump to the 61th Ayaa of the same sura again;


And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment) therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me this is a Straight Way.


The experts of Arabic semantics here agree on this pronoun Inahu that it refers to the Prophet Jesus AS. So if it is translated here that And lo There is knowledge of Hour Have no doubt about it and follow me. Does it make any sense to the reader? I dont think so. Plus the rules of Arabic grammar and the context of these Ayaats do not allow one person to translate it with that version which you have presented. Then these prominent exegetes of Islam also mentioned that this Ayaa is alluding towards the Jesus PBUH some of their names are; Ibn 'Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, Suddi, Dahhak, Abul `Aliyah, Ibn Kathir and Abu Malik in the classical medieval era of Islam. There are many other Ayaats of Holy Quran which implicitly points towards the second coming of Jesus PBUH but due to the burden of my work Ill suffice to explicate this Ayaa only according to the explanations of the classical scholars of Islam and experts of Arabic language.

 

[babadeena]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Br. Bret Hawk,

It is not the question of "what x,y,z, have said" it is what Quran is saying. Your strong words of arabic are "Inaahoo" and "Elim". If you google both words you will
come to know that "Inaahoo" in different places have been denoting differently. As far as the word "elim" is concerned, NO WHERE IN QURAN IT HAS BEEN TRANSLATED AS "Sign" except in this verse only. That raises the Eye brows! Please show me one more place in Quran where the arabic word "Elim" is being translated as "sign", only one more place whereas I can provide you more than one places where "Inhaahoo" does not reflect "He".

There are many other Ayaats of Holy Quran which implicitly points towards the second coming of Jesus PBUH but due to the burden of my work Ill suffice to explicate this Ayaa only

At your convenience, please do provide me three to four at least those ayas, which according to you implicitly or explicitly convey that message.
Last but not least, I am of the view that My lord is not going to question me "If I believes in the "second return of Jesus", rather if I believed Jesus as Prophet and that I do vehemently!
Waslaam.

 

[nadanbaba]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

I am really shocked when i saw that Programme... its really bad for Ghamdi...
there are some thing in Islamic History... i wanna just mention one thing ...


When ever AZAAB-E-ELLAHI is thrown to any nation in Islamic history ... The Prophet of that nation {Ummat/Qoum} should see his nation or ummat's AZAAB.. Like when AZZAB on Noah [A.S]'s the ummat is alive and Prophet are Present..
Second Example is Prophet Loaut[A.S]'s nation is also see his ummat is facing azaab.. same thing goes to Bani-Israeal... Hazrat ISSA IBN MARYYAM[A.S] should see AZZAB on his nation/ummat with his eyes... so that why its currently suspended...till second coming of HAZRAT ISSA IBN-E-MARAY [A.S] then his nation is face AZAAB.
SEcond Thing....

What ABOut DAJJAL....I wanna Ask to Ghamdi and his Fellows .. WHo is gonna finish DAJJAL .. the Answer is No one else EXcept HAZRAT ISSA IBN-E-MARRAYAM [A.S].. Every One know The Femous HADITH regarding DAJJAL
Last Thing

What is SHARIAT... basically SHRAIAT = Quraan+HADITH
ABsence of any one else SHARIAT is not completed... ALLAMAT-E-QAYAM most from HADITHS.....
these People are Spreading FInaas against ISLAM.. They don't Wanna Conclude HADITHS ... they accept ISLAM and QURAN.. never accept HADITH once you elemenate one .. you incomplete Islam.. that kind of People thinking is based on Bani-Israeal[/color]

 

[nadanbaba]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDnO7sduQD8&feature=related[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpVAJ-l9DLM&feature=related[/video]

You must see these Parts... You will Understand.....
MAY ALLAH BLESS US

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Guys first of all i did not post this here so some of you could give fatwas on whose muslims and whose not, that is the main reason why we are in so many splinter groups right now. The point of this whole post was to get irrefutable evidence that points to one thing or another and we should all have the courage to accept the truth. Mr ghamdi is entitled to his own beliefs as he does his own study. You guys are more than welcome to try to convince him other wise but giving fatwas on whose muslim and whose ahmadi is really stupid. I posted this up for discussion so that i could get evidence from all sides and then form my beliefs so i certainly did not jump to any conclusions.

And yes some of you are right, Hadithes of Bukhari ,Muslim and the other 4 books cannot be ignored and must be taken into account. I hope this was not a deliberate attempt by Ghamdi to mislead people because i like what he preaches on other issues. Dr Israr also has immense knowledge on the subject of islam and shouldnt be ignored.
What i have realized foremost is that its okay so say "i just dont know" and still be muslim. Our underlying beliefs are still the same and we should not give fatwas on whose shia and whose sunni and unite. This is precisely what we do in the case of parties and individuals, at the end of the day we are all muslim if we belief the message of Prophet Muhammed SAW to what extent can be debated because humans are not above error and if Ghamdi does give more weightage to one form of evidence than that is the choice given to him by god and he alone will be tested on his beliefs.
I am one of the mainstream muslims ie sunni as most of us are known, but that does not give me the right to call others non muslim. Scholars can agree to disagree but that does not mean they were paid by dajjal to diagree. You are all educated people here able to read and write an use a computer, i do not expect educated people to be intolerant to other beliefs but its seems like some of you are ,very few tho.

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Salaam,
I do not wish to question the authenticity of Hadith Source and nor would like to be seeing as their rejecter or accepter with blind eyes. but I do wish to take on you the very much aya mentioned above. This is the only and one aya on which the advocates of Jesus coming second time build there thesis. Please show me in where in Quran the arabic word "Elim" has been translated as "sign". This intentional distorted translation of this arabic word "elim" itself is the proof that the same notion followers have no ground to stand. May I remind u that almost everyone if not everyone word has been oft-repeated or at least repeated in Quran. "Sign" gets other word from Quranic arabic and that is never any where used for "Elim". Moreover, whose statement is this (Isa (as)) or some other Prophet(as)?

"And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour." this is the correct translation and in the support of this verse check this verse please:
"Unto Him is referred (all) knowledge of the Hour" (41:47)
From where the word "sign" appears, only in those translators mind who translate or accept Quran through the prism of their "Pre-conceived Concept"

waslaam.

61. And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

I think the word "ILM" probably means knowledge so the translation is probably Knowledge of the final hour, but it carries the same meaning i think.

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

lol some good insight patriot so i guess im left where i started haha which is "I just dont know..could please explain the verse 61 of surah zukruf properly , does it just talk about the coming revolution or jesus as the translation i mentioned earlier showed ??

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

61. And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

More precisely , when the verse mentions "he" who is Allah(SWT) talking about. And how can we know if the "Hour" means the day of resurrection or just the revolution during Muhammed SAW 's time?

lol we need a ALim-e-Din on this forum.

 

[babadeena]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

61. And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore have no doubt concerning it (i.e. the Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient to Allah and do what He orders you to do, O mankind)! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise).

Let us check "Elim u Sahat"

31:34
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps21/ch21t.html#34
33:63
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps22/ch22j.html#63
41:47
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps25/ch25.html#47
43:61
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps25/ch25u.html#61
43:85
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps25/ch25x.html#85

I am now asking for more than once, please show me a single verse in Quran where "elim" has been translated as "sign" except in 43:61. So those people whose
foundation is based on this verse from whole of Quran, seems to be crumbling? I suppose!!!!!
waslaam.

 

[babadeena]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

The Qur'an does not mention only"he" it is the translater who understands it this way.The Qur'an says "innahu" or ????????? in arabic which can mean "he,it,this".Hence , it can't be jesus(AS).

Sorry Patriot Brother, "Innahu" has been translated in different way, somewhere it denotes noun and somewhere it is just "Indeed, No doubt, Lo etc".

Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah,
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps06/ch06v.html#72

Lo! the wrong doers will not be successful
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps07/ch07j.html#21

So even on ""innahu", the views of those people are not convincing?
waslaam

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

Agreed the quran does not say anything about jesus's coming, but what would u like to say about the different accepted hadiths and the fact Dr israr mentioned about jesus talking till manhood or 40 years old or what the word kahulat means and what it stands for. And what would you like to say to those who say the Israelites and their descendants must perish as those nations before them who rejected their messenger.

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

I am now asking for more than once, please show me a single verse in Quran where "elim" has been translated as "sign" except in 43:61. So those people whose
foundation is based on this verse from whole of Quran, seems to be crumbling? I suppose!!!!!
waslaam.

Baba deena we already talked about the word "ILM" and bret agrees with me. The discussion now is about "inahu" which patriot says does nto refer to Hazat Isa .

 

[babadeena]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

I am now asking for more than once, please show me a single verse in Quran where "elim" has been translated as "sign" except in 43:61. So those people whose
foundation is based on this verse from whole of Quran, seems to be crumbling? I suppose!!!!!
waslaam.

Baba deena we already talked about the word "ILM" and bret agrees with me. The discussion now is about "inahu" which patriot says does nto refer to Hazat Isa .

What agreement? I have given undeniable proofs from Quran, that people have wrongly translated the word "Elim" in 43:61. So bottom line is that "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF JESUS SECOND RETURN IN QURAN"
waslaam

 

[furry87]

Re: Second coming of jesus disputed by ghamdi

I am now asking for more than once, please show me a single verse in Quran where "elim" has been translated as "sign" except in 43:61. So those people whose
foundation is based on this verse from whole of Quran, seems to be crumbling? I suppose!!!!!
waslaam.

Baba deena we already talked about the word "ILM" and bret agrees with me. The discussion now is about "inahu" which patriot says does nto refer to Hazat Isa .

What agreement? I have given undeniable proofs from Quran, that people have wrongly translated the word "Elim" in 43:61. So bottom line is that "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF JESUS SECOND RETURN IN QURAN"
waslaam

Lol please read my post where i said ILM is normally translated to mean knowledge, and bret said to me in the pm that he agrees the word ILM meant knowledge ..please read the translation . It says "known sign" or knowledge of the sign of the day of judgement. So yes we rather I agree with you completely on the ILM part but i have not made up my mind yet on jesus's coming.