ayesha.w

New Member
Re: Lahore shooting: US demands immediate release of Raymond Davis

I am just wondering if Shahbaz Sharif would have gone to console the family of a "robber"( as stated by Raymond Davis- I do not know what the truth is) who had been killed by a Pakistani citizen..
The only thing that bothers me here is that in what way can the Americans be benefited by killing two men in Lahore- it could really have been a mere accident as stated by Mr. Raymond. Not that I do not feel pity for the poor families who have lost their sons, but our leaders and our media is dragging their own country towards its downfall by bringing yet again this issue to the limelight, which might shatter the already unstable international and national political status of Pakistan. Salman Taseer's murder was a heavy blow already; showing how the uneducated masses respond blindly to what they see on television(thanks to the media for hyping up every situation)without really analyzing the facts. And now this. Food for thought - Should our country really be ruining its political ties with America at the death of two people where thousands have been dying because of suicide bombings in the recent years ? The government needs to work towards one resolution, only then can it lead our country towards peace. The media will continue to hype about similar situations every other month, and our country would never be able to reach a stable point. If only this issue and similar ones are not brought to the limelight, and resolved behind closed doors, the masses would have more time to concentrate on making their lives better and working towards a prosperous Pakistan. The masses should be made aware of incidents to a certain level, and I feel it does not help in any way by displaying each and every detail. Those who are educated and sane enough, could read articles and comment on public forums, rather than going out in the streets and terrorizing others.(serious)
 

adnan_younus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

drone attack was only taking place with the consent of army, ISI and the govt. There is some thing more to raymond davis status; that army is really pissed off . May be he was doing spying which army wasnt told about.
 

shaheedchoudry

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

drone attack was only taking place with the consent of army, ISI and the govt. There is some thing more to raymond davis status; that army is really pissed off . May be he was doing spying which army wasnt told about.
Mubarak ho. Pouray saal mai aap nay bhi aqal mandi ki baat ker di.
 

Usman Baig

MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

Has anyone noticed that drone attacks have completely stopped since the Raymond

Davis affair?

There is not any news about any new drone Attack in media, are our media sleeping or avoiding any news regarding Drone Attacks.

If you are not noticed,than you are forced away from reality.

See the timeline at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

America agar Drone Attack karega toh, Hum Pakistani Aawam Raymond Davis par Attack nahi kardegi kya. America buhat Darrpok hain. bashart ye ke Pakistani Government ko bahador banna parega. ye America kuch nahi karsakta bass agar Pakistan khara hogya to pori Islamic World Pakistan ke saath khari hojaigi, aur saath main China bhi.
 

biomat

Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

Assalam-o-alaikum
Brother Zeeshan
But did u noticed new wave of bombings on Police stations or we are too much sensitive.???
 

adnan_swati

Senator (1k+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

drone attack was only taking place with the consent of army, isi and the govt. There is some thing more to raymond davis status; that army is really pissed off . May be he was doing spying which army wasnt told about.

i think army already knew it . But the thing is that it came into notice of public. The only army in the world that play with its own people blood
 

adnan_younus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

I say what i feel is correct; i support davis and will always do if he did the shooting in self defense regardless if he is a jew, american or a hindu or regardless what ever statsu he is working in Pakistan. I wil support he shooting any two robbers in seklf defense.

Now having said that; I always mantianed the question about what davis is doing in Pakistan is secondary which is not related to the shooting and no body is sure about it except ISi and the army. What i said above is my version but i may be wrong. But drone attackes is happenign with our permission; 3 in the two years of musharraf to 143 in the last two years of democracy.

Mubarak ho. Pouray saal mai aap nay bhi aqal mandi ki baat ker di.
 

adnan_younus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Drone Attacks completely stopped after Raymond Davis Issue - Did you notice that?

Our army is the only reason we still have Pakistan in current place after los of bangladesh which again was failure of ur politicans + army. make the army only for borders and see balochistan sindh nwfp be separate countries. Pak army Zindabaad
i think army already knew it . But the thing is that it came into notice of public. The only army in the world that play with its own people blood
 

simple_and_peacefull

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Raymond Davis case: the Lal Masjid of present govt

By Ansar Abbasi
Wednesday, February 09, 2011
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=3885&Cat=13&dt=2/9/2011


ISLAMABAD: The Raymond Davis case is turning into yet another Lal Mosque-like episode for Pakistan which if mishandled by the government to the pleasure of Washington would further extremism and fuel terrorism.

On the contrary, if the double murderer American is tried and punished, notwithstanding any foreign pressure, as per the law of the land it would help reduce suicide attacks and extremism in a remarkable way. The choice is with the federal as well as Punjab government as to what they really opt for - more bloodshed or peace.

We need to sit together and rethink our strategy on this particular issue but it does not happen here, this is how a Foreign Office official reflects on Pakistans dilemma where institutions are ignored and major decisions are left for the individuals to take. In view of veteran former diplomat and respected ex-foreign secretary Riaz Khokhar, the instant case should be focused to get rid of all Davis-like US commandos and intelligence operatives threatening our sovereignty. He insisted that the national leadership should immediately devise a strategy on a war footing that how the huge influx of American commandos on Pakistan soil be reversed and all these commandos are sent back forcibly. See, I am telling you if we failed to do this at this moment we will lose our sovereignty, Khokar warned.

Officially both the federal and provincial governments stand firm that the courts would decide the fate of the American killer and that they would not succumb to any pressure. But privately they give confusing signals. Under Washingtons pressure, the federal government does consider obliging the Americans by putting up a favourable immunity-related note before the Lahore High Court.

As against their public posturing, the Punjab government too is going soft amid unconfirmed reports that police investigators are under pressure to let the influential criminal off the hook. There is also strange silence on the issue of arresting the other American killer, who got Ibadur Rehman crushed under the wheels of his vehicle.

A national consensus has developed on the issue of Davis. The people demand his trial here and are not ready to see him going in US hands without being punished, former ISI chief Lt Gen (r) Hamid Gul said, warning that if the man is given back to Washington it would not only depress ordinary Pakistanis but would serve as another Lal Mosque disaster.

Gul said that the fallout of giving immunity to Davis and letting him go scot-free would be extremely serious beyond many peoples imagination. We may see a new wave of terrorism, he said. The Lal Mosque massacre of July 2007 had resulted into manifold increase in suicide bombing and terrorist activities. Many in the media were even seen advising Musharraf through their editorials and private meetings to launch military operation on Lal Mosque and Jamia Hafsa occupants to present a moderate face of Pakistan to the outside world. But it all ended in igniting terrorism and fuelling extremism. Later, however, many in the government as well as media regretted that the Lal Mosque event was mishandled though it was like crying over spilt milk.

Can we afford to repeat the similar blunder? Or should we exploit the Raymond Davis case to reverse Washingtons massive influence into our internal affairs, treat him as per the law of the land, re-gain our compromised sovereignty and give a clear message to all and sundry that Pakistan is an independent state and believes in the rule of law. If Pakistan refuses to hand over Davis to Washington and punishes him here, as is required under the law of the land, it would send a positive message to the extremists. Undoubtedly the unparalleled growth of extremism in Pakistan has been the consequence of the post 9/11 policies of General Musharraf, whose compromises at the cost of national security and countrys sovereignty saw no end to please the Americans. We have now with us an American killer Davis, whose fair trial within Pakistan would help the extremists to develop positive thinking about those ruling the country. Such thinking is crucial to checking extremism.

Riaz Khokhar while talking to The News said that keeping aside the Davis issue for a moment, the disclosure of presence of 900 to 1000 US security commandos, roaming in different cities of Pakistan, is itself the biggest threat to the national security of Pakistan. He foresees that public outrage could evoke anytime against the sleeping regime over this miserable and vulnerable national security situation.

Khokhar said there is no doubt that the sentiments of million of Pakistanis are attached with the Davis incident. He said the incident has further deepened the already existing hatred against the brutalities of US, and underlined that this is high time that the whole national leadership should sit together besides discussing the matter in Parliament to find out who in the government or the establishment had allowed the Davis like US commandos to come and operate within the territory of Pakistan without any security clearance. He said Pakistan should never hand over Davis to US and urged that the sovereignty of the country should not be compromised in any manner. He is the killer and doesnt enjoy any immunity. He should be dealt with the law of the land, Khokhar said adding: And if our rulers make the mistake to hand him over to US the outrage of the people of Pakistan will be uncontrollable.
 

simple_and_peacefull

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Raymond Davis case: the Lal Masjid of present govt

2-11-2011_62333_1.gif
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/feb2011-daily/11-02-2011/index.html
 

CoolDool

Minister (2k+ posts)
Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

WASHINGTON: President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences, US media quoted Pakistani officials as saying.

According to the reported published in ABC News, National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani that the U.S. will kick him out of the U.S., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistani President to Washington, if Davis is not released from custody by Friday.

According to the ABC News, the outlines of the threat were confirmed by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment.

Meanwhile, Ambassador Haqqani, in a message on social networking website denied that any US official has conveyed any personal threats to him or spoken of extreme measures. GEO NEWS
 

simple_and_peacefull

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

Updated at 1325 PST Friday, February 11, 2011

2-11-2011_10646_l_u.jpg


WASHINGTON: President Obama's national security advisor summoned Pakistan's ambassador to the White House Monday evening to deliver a threat from the president: Release Raymond Davis, an American being held in Lahore for killing two Pakistanis, or face the consequences, US media quoted Pakistani officials as saying.

According to the reported published in ABC News, National Security Advisor Tom Donilon told Ambassador Husain Haqqani that the U.S. will kick him out of the U.S., close U.S. consulates in Pakistan, and cancel an upcoming visit by Pakistani President to Washington, if Davis is not released from custody by Friday.

According to the ABC News, the outlines of the threat were confirmed by a senior U.S. official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. A White House spokesperson, Tommy Vietor, declined comment.

Meanwhile, Ambassador Haqqani, in a message on social networking website denied that any US official has conveyed any personal threats to him or spoken of extreme measures.http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=10968
 

simple_and_peacefull

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

Police reject US gunman's self-defence claim
Updated at 1150 PST Friday, February 11, 2011

LAHORE: The police investigations into the Lahore incident have been completed and it has now been confirmed that Raymond Davis did not acted in self-defence, Geo News reported.

CCPO Lahore Aslam Tarin told media that Davis shot at the fleeing boy and the motorcyclists did not point guns at him adding that the gun recovered from the deceased was not loaded.

He rejected the self-defence claim made by Davis who shot dead two men last month, saying it was a clear case of murder.

"The police investigation and forensic report show it was not self-defence," he told a news conference.

"His plea has been rejected by police investigators," he said. "He gave no chance to them to survive. That is why we consider it was not self-defence. We have proof it was not self-defence. It was clear murder."

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=10963
 

waleedhussain

Councller (250+ posts)
Re: Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

pack up brothers and buckle up ... I guess the time is coming soon. To whom they (US) dare threaten? They cant stand even a week without our logistic support. Let them bark, they will have to apologize for this, if they want to shut all consulates let them do, just one week of blocked logistics and they will remember their grandma
 

Salik

Senator (1k+ posts)
Re: Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

I wish we break up our ties with the US and live happily ever after.....

The ties with the US have been a burden on Pakistan for years... it is time we reduce them to bare minimum and give the hyper power their due treatment...

and by the way...

This is just bullying ....

They will be one their knees ... begging if Pakistan stops the NATO supply to Afganistan...
 

adnan_younus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/11/no-threats-given-to-haqqani-us-embassy.html

Bu the police hv also said the two men were robbers and 4 mobile phones 2 snatched were recovered.. this bayaan is to quench the thirst of jazbati patoras.. mark my words.. davis will be freed to go to US by our courts... PERIOD

catch the driver who killed an innocent man.. he is teh real criminal... no one is asking for him.. jazbati idiots
 
Re: Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

For the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, a parking ticket violation is more atrocious than a murder. As a junior senator from New York , Mrs. Clinton wanted to revoke the diplomatic immunity for scofflaw diplomats who were stationed at the United Nations in New York and had racked up $21.3 million in parking violations. As the Secretary of State, however, she is invoking diplomatic immunity for Mr. Raymond Davis, who is accused of murdering two young men in Lahore .
It is hard to understand Mrs. Clinton’s logic who on one hand was not willing to excuse foreign diplomats accused of parking violations in New York . “The flagrant disregard for parking regulations has had serious ramification for the safety and quality of life for New Yorkers,” she argued in a letter in 2002. On the other hand, she would like an American contract worker, who claims to be a diplomat, to be granted immunity from prosecution for murdering two youths.
In 2004, Mrs. Clinton and the senior senator from New York , Charles Schumer, presented a Bill that advocated cutting foreign aid to countries who owed unpaid parking fines to the City of New York . Senator Clinton was obviously incensed by the fact that diplomats were abusing their privilege. Diplomatic immunity was never intended to allow diplomats to violate traffic laws of the host country, or for that matter, commit murders.
She registered her discontent with diplomatic immunity and argued that it was not “acceptable for foreign diplomats and consular officials to hide behind diplomatic and consular immunity to park in illegal spaces in New York City and avoid paying parking tickets. It is my hope that this legislation will ensure that the City gets the money that it is owed.” Senators Clinton and Schumer were successful in amending the 2005 congressional Foreign Operations Bill in the Senate that froze foreign aid to countries by amounts they owed New York City in parking ticket violations and unpaid property taxes.
I am not suggesting that parking violations could or should be ignored. As a professor of transport management, I understand how illegally parked vehicles impede traffic, cause congestion, and cost billions in lost productivity. In fact, in 2006 when the US Embassy in London racked up over 1 million in unpaid congestion charges, the peeved Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, called the American ambassador Robert Tuttle, who owned a car dealership and raised $200,000 for President George W. Bush’s election campaign, a ‘chiselling little crook’.
What I do not understand is how can one justify waiving diplomatic immunity for a misdemeanour, i.e., a parking violation, and insist on invoking it for violating the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill, for a person whose diplomatic credentials are dubious at best, and whose culpability is beyond doubt.
Granting Mr. Davis diplomatic immunity will deny the judicial system in Pakistan the opportunity to determine the circumstances that lead to the two murders. The courts need to establish if Mr. Davis is indeed a diplomat, and not a contract worker or a mercenary employed by the US consulate in Lahore . The courts need to determine that if Mr. Davis were a diplomat, where was he stationed in the past or what school he attended to prepare for a career in foreign diplomacy. The courts need to ascertain if he indeed was acting in self-defence when he shot the two men riding away on a motorbike through the windshield of his car. The courts need to determine if he indeed was on diplomatic business at the time he shot the two men.
I have spoken with senior Pakistani diplomats in North America who have confirmed that Mr. Davis was issued an official business visa, which is reserved for contractors and lower-level staff serving in foreign missions in Pakistan . This does not make Mr. Davis eligible for diplomatic immunity in the first place. I contacted Ambassador Hussain Haqqani in Washington , DC , to determine the status of Mr. Davis’ now controversial visa. Mr. Haqqani has chosen not to respond.
While the US has always by default demanded immunity from prosecution for its diplomats serving in foreign countries, she has been stingy in reciprocating the favour. When the shoe is on the other foot, the US administration reacts completely in the opposite. Instead of honouring diplomatic immunity, it pressures countries to waive diplomatic immunity for the diplomats accused of wrongdoings in the United States .
In 1987, a car driven by the ambassador of Papua New Guinea , Kiatro Abisinito, hit four other cars in Washington , DC . The ambassador invoked diplomatic immunity. However, the US Attorneys prepared a criminal case against the ambassador for operating a vehicle while being intoxicated.
Consider the case of Georgian diplomat, Gueorgui Makharadze, who in 1997 killed a 16-year old girl in a fatal traffic accident in the US . The diplomat invoked diplomatic immunity and was ready to leave when the Georgian President, Eduard Shevardnadze, ordered the diplomat to stay in the United States and face criminal charges. Mr. Makharadze was convicted by a court and served time in an American prison.
Pakistan will not be the first country to question the doctrines of diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats have been accused of not just misdemeanours, such as parking violations, but are accused of heinous crimes, such as murder. Former US Secretary of Defense, Caspar Weinberger, pointed out circumstances that warranted “limits to the doctrines of diplomatic immunity.” While addressing a conference organized by the American Bar Association in June 1986, Mr Weinberger unequivocally declared that a “diplomatic title must not confer a license to murder.”
Several American legislators have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity in cases where diplomats were accused of serious crimes, such as murder and rape. In 1984, Senator Arlen Specter presented a Bill to renegotiate the Vienna Convention to eliminate diplomatic immunity for diplomats accused of murder. Later in 1987, US Congressman Stephen J. Solarz introduced a Bill to limit the diplomatic immunity, which he termed untenable and unacceptable to grant to those accused of murder.
While the American public representatives have tried to restrict diplomatic immunity for others, they have fought tooth and nail to seek immunity for their own diplomats when they stood accused of committing serious crimes. There are several examples of American diplomats leaving without trial even after being accused of committing murders. According to New York Times’ archives, a US Embassy employee, Martha D. Patterson, was accused of complicity in poisoning to death a USSR citizen in July 1977. Ms. Peterson was freed however after she invoked diplomatic immunity. Later in 2002, Samuel Karmilowicz, an employee with the US Embassy in Quito, Ecuador, shot and killed an Ecuadorian national Pablo Jaramillo after crashing his car into the taxi carrying Mr. Jaramillo. The American diplomat left Ecuador soon afterwards invoking diplomatic immunity.
It is however, not without precedent that a country revoked diplomatic immunity for diplomats of other countries. In 1944, England cancelled diplomatic immunity for foreign diplomats and their staff. Only diplomats from the Commonwealth countries, the Soviet Union and the United States were permitted to retain diplomatic immunity.
In 2002 in England , the Colombian Embassy waived diplomatic immunity for a sergeant-major and his son who were caught on CCTV stabbing to death a 23 year old man outside a supermarket in West London . Initially, the Colombian diplomat, who was an assistant to the Colombian military attach, and his son were granted immunity from prosecution. The Colombians claimed that they acted in self-defence after being mugged by the deceased. The Colombians were however acquitted of murder by a British court after it was established that they indeed acted in self-defence.
It is also not without precedent that the US government has waived immunity for its diplomats or contractors employed by the US foreign missions. In 1995, the US government waived diplomatic immunity for David Duchow, a contract employee with the US embassy in Bolivia , who was accused of stealing a truck-load of fuel. Mr. Duchow in retaliation sued the US government for waiving his diplomatic immunity.
Indulge me for a second and imagine if the situation was reversed and a Pakistani diplomat stood accused of shooting to death two young men in SoHo , New York . Given that Mrs. Clinton was unwilling to pardon diplomats accused of parking violations, it is highly likely that she would have opposed granting immunity to a Pakistani diplomat accused of committing multiple murders in broad daylight and in the presence of dozens of eye witnesses. She would have insisted that the true identity and the status of the accused be first determined. She would have wanted the US courts to determine if the Pakistani diplomat acted in self-defence or was he a trigger-happy fellow who got spooked and started shooting. She would not have allowed the Pakistani diplomat to touch the tarmac at the JFK Airport .
I also wonder how President Obama would react in this situation. Would he be as statesmanlike as the former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze and instruct Mr. Raymond Davis to stay in Pakistan and plead his case in a court of law. Or would Mr. Obama choose to be more like the Russian Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, who refused to waive diplomatic immunity for a Russian diplomat stationed in Canada who in 2001 killed one woman and injured another while driving a car while being intoxicated?
 
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adnan_younus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Raymond Davis case: the Lal Masjid of present govt

what a stupid analogy... they shud revisit the meaning of analogy
 

Spartacus

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Davis was guilty of "cold-blooded murder" - Police chief Aslam Tareen

US man Raymond Davis shot Pakistan pair 'in cold blood' ...Police chief Aslam Tareen
A Pakistani police chief has said a US citizen in custody over the deaths of two men in Lahore last month was guilty of "cold-blooded murder".
Lahore city police chief Aslam Tareen told a news conference that one of the men was killed while running away.
He spoke after Raymond Davis was remanded for another 14 days following an appearance in a Lahore court.
Mr Davis, 36, has admitted he shot the men, but says he acted in self-defence because they were trying to rob him.
The court has ordered the Pakistani government to clarify US embassy claims that Mr Davis has diplomatic immunity.
He is charged on two counts - murder and possession of illegal weapons.
'Tremendous pressure'
Mr Tareen told a news conference: "The police investigation and forensic report show it was not self-defence.
"His plea has been rejected by police investigators. He gave no chance to them to survive.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12427518
 

waleedhussain

Councller (250+ posts)
Re: Davis case; US threatens to snap diplomatic ties with Pakistan

http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/11/no-threats-given-to-haqqani-us-embassy.html

Bu the police hv also said the two men were robbers and 4 mobile phones 2 snatched were recovered.. this bayaan is to quench the thirst of jazbati patoras.. mark my words.. davis will be freed to go to US by our courts... PERIOD

catch the driver who killed an innocent man.. he is teh real criminal... no one is asking for him.. jazbati idiots

This is not jazbat. Let us see your way of being cool. Let me clear this. EVEN IF, IF, IF & ONLY IF, they both were robbers and blah blah.What the hell this Davis doing there? Allah unveiled this US spy infront of the whole nation, when we said that Musharraf is allowing black water and spies to enter Pakistan the so-called "Liberals" named us "idiot mullahs", but now Allah has revealed the matter which they concealed. Who is responsible for the third and fourth person? Do they give us a shi* by not handing us the reckless driver?
 

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