Jesus Crucifixion, the problem

[TechWarrior]

Here is the tricky question, not for faint hearts. Hope someone could bring the Answer for this problem.

It seems Allah deceived both Christians and the Jews and misguided them and started Judism and Christianity.

In the Qur'an Allah says that Jesus was not killed but the people were made to see as if he was crucified. Why people were made to see that Jesus was crucified? In other words, people were deceived as they saw Jesus dying on the cross but that was not the case(as Allah for some reason lifted him up without letting people know) and because of this they were misguided and saw Jesus dying.Eventually, some of the Jews believed he died for their sins and hence Christianity was born. Allah could have prevented the Christianity by not deceiving people and saving the Christ in front of everyone. These Christians for the next 600 years were misguided until Prophet Muhammad PBUH came into picture and Quran was revealed where the actual story of Jesus was described later that he was lifted up into heavens.
So the truth was revealed after 600 years from the birth of Christianity. I feel Christians have the right to believe he died if they have testimonies of the people which were there that day and they were made to see as if he was crucified.

Also, it seems from Jewish perspective, they were right in crucifying Jesus since for them he died on the cross and was not the Messiah in the first place because they were successful in crucifying him.

Both Jewish and Christians looks innocent in this case. Had this deceiving not occurred at that time, we would have not known the Christianity and Judaism but Islam only since Jews at that time were Muslims.

 

[c'estmoi]

So you are saying the Judaism and Christianity started when Jesus was 'crucified'? You dont think the 'Jews' were disobeying God before Jesus came into existence? You dont think 'Christians' existed before the 'crucification'?

 

[Aliimran1]

Religion is a very sensitive and personal thing ---- Kindly don,t discuss this with average people who don,t have respect for it --- Every religion is way beyond our small approachs understanding and our basis
Don,t hurt someone's feeling just for your curiosity --- Thanks

 

[c'estmoi]

Religion is a very sensitive and personal thing ---- Kindly don,t discuss this with average people who don,t have respect for it --- Every religion is way beyond our small approachs understanding and our basis
Don,t hurt someone's feeling just for your curiosity --- Thanks

With due respect, I disagree. It's not wrong to discuss something and seek answers to questions one might have. It's very healthy actually. Let me give you another example. How do you expect a non-muslim to become muslim if he/she is not going to research, ask questions (that may seem offensive) but he/she is curious to find answers etc? I'm not implying that thats what OP is doing or we are scholars here but just giving you an example.

 

[Aliimran1]

With due respect, I disagree. It's not wrong to discuss something and seek answers to questions one might have. It's very healthy actually. Let me give you another example. How do you expect a non-muslim to become muslim if he/she is not going to research, ask questions (that may seem offensive) but he/she is curious to find answers etc? I'm not implying that thats what OP is doing or we are scholars here but just giving you an example.

Mein Jis din " behtar insan" ban gaya tu phir acha Musalman bannay ki koshish karon ga Ta kah phir kisi ko convince kar sakon
Bada lamba penda way ajay
Note:- It is your right to agree or disagree

 

[c'estmoi]

Mein Jis din " behtar insan" ban gaya tu phir acha Musalman bannay ki koshish karon ga Ta kah phir kisi ko convince kar sakon
Bada lamba penda way ajay
Note:- It is your right to agree or disagree

Ok, you are talking about something totally different now.

 

[Respect]

Christianity was already born with the arrival off Jesus pbuh

 

[saadi038]

It starts with the virgin birth and it was a test for those jews right? then new born spoke and said I am the prophet of Allah “messiah” so that’s 2. Baptism 3? By John PBUH the whole life is from start to be end to come is a test. I suppose it was normal for Jews at the time because they’d seen bigger miracles. But also it became power politics which is still continues. Human life is a test was for the

 

[Iconoclast]

The whole notion of jesus dying for the sins of people and him being the begotten son of God is an innovation, added later on by Constantine mixing Paganism and Christianity into it's current form bringing in new ideas of jesus dying for the sins, sundays being the rest days, Christmas etc, so much so they changed the christian symbol to the cross.
Ilai Ilai lama taraktani, that's what jesus said on the cross and God accepted his prayer.
The main disagreement started between the christians and jews (jesus didn't call them christians) on the word Ab meaning father. Since they didn't want to listen to his preaching, the jews were looking for an excuse to crucify him and get rid of him.
Both went in different extremes, one accused him of claiming to be the son of God to which jesus replied "Is it not in your law? You are the sons of God, I am the son of God". It was a term of respect not literal in aramaic.
God has got sons by the tons in the bible.

You see the jews were in a hurry to crucify him since it was almost friday afternoon and sabbath getting near. They were in equal hurry to bring him down. So without confirming if he was dead, they brought him down before sunset and placed him in a sepulchral. There Mary tended to his wounds.
He never died on the cross, Allah just made sure they never checked if he was really dead.

 

[Wake up Pak]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

 

[kasa_diya]

Guys this is not the forum for these discussions tbh.

 

[c'estmoi]

Guys this is not the forum for these discussions tbh.

Then what is? It's posted under Islamic Corner.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Christianity was not born with Jesus. It's most likely that Jesus never existed, there is no historical record of Jesus or anyone that matches his description. The bible was written hundreds years after by questionable authors who probably made up the story of Jesus.

 

[c'estmoi]

Christianity was not born with Jesus. It's most likely that Jesus never existed, there is no historical record of Jesus or anyone that matches his description. The bible was written hundreds years after by questionable authors who probably made up the story of Jesus.

What about prophet Muhammad(PBUH) or Moses(PBUH)?

 

[kasa_diya]

Then what is? It's posted under Islamic Corner.

sorry my bad, didn't check.

 

[thinking]

Waisay tu main is baat ke bohat khalaf ho ke is forum par koi religious or Firqa parasti ki behas ki Jaya..bohat see dosray forums Hain Jahan ye question answer kia ja saktey hain..Admn ko aisay thread allow hi nahi karnay chahaya is forum par post....

 

[justunjust]

Iconoclast is right that jews were in a hurry to crucify him since it was almost friday afternoon and sabbath getting near. They were in equal hurry to bring him down. So without confirming if he was dead, they brought him down before sunset and placed him in a sepulchral. Whereas, they used to leave a person on the cross for several days but they did not do that with Jesus.

Evidence that Jesus was Alive at the cross
Gospel of Matthew 12:38 One day some teachers of religious law and Pharisees came to Jesus and said, "Teacher, we want you to show us a miraculous sign to prove your authority." 39: But Jesus replied, "Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40: For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

====> Since Prophet Jonah (Younas AS) was alive in the belly of the fish so was Jesus (ESA AS).

Evidence that no disciples was there when Jesus was Crucified
According to Gospel of Matthew 26:56, all the disciples fled when Jesus was arrested, and most of them probably stayed away from the crucifixion out of fear of their own arrest. Gospel of John 18:15-27 says that Peter's fear of arrest caused him to repeatedly deny that he even knew Jesus.

====> There is no clear evidence that the disciples (Sehaba) were present at the time of crucifixion.

Evidence that Christians were foretold about Prophet Muhammad PBUH
Gospel of John 16:12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13: But when he, the Spirit of truth (Sadiq Prophet Muhammad PBUH), comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears (Wahee), and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14: He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

====> Christians had to follow Jewish Law until the arrival of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. But Saint Paul twisted the facts and misguided the Christians and asked them to curse the Law. Saint Paul introduced the theology that Jesus gave his life for their sins and that Christians dont need to follow the Law anymore. He deceived the Christians that they have been forgiven forever no matter what they do.

Were Jews misguided then?
No Jews were not willing to accept Jesus as a Messiah( a prophet) and they were just trying to get rid of Jesus. So it cant be said that the death of Jesus deceived Jews and hence they are innocent because Quran exposed Jews had been historically killing Prophets.

Finally, It was not Allah who deceived Jews or Christians rather they did not keep their commandments and refused to accept Muhammad PBUH as their Prophet, although they had been foretold about him.

 

[thinking]

Can anyone tell me.. what Christian think about as Jews crucified Jesus??.and what Jews arguments.. defends Jesus crucified or feel sorry for that to Christians??

 

[Vitamin_C]

Theres alot of historical evidence of Muhammad and his contact with Romans, Persians and Ethiopians so he was most probably a real person just like Alexander the Great or Julius Caeser...

Israeli archaeologists wandered the Sinai peninsula for 15 years from 1967 to 1982 when Israel occupied Sinai. They couldn't find any evidence of Moses or his 2 million followers that escaped from Egypt 4000 years ago (No garbage heaps without pig bones as found in archaeological sites in Israel). Although they did find evidence of 100 people who crossed the Sinai about 70,000 years ago.

The story of Moses does not exist in older versions of the Jewish bible. According to the manuscripts that have been recovered from various times the story of Moses appears in the Jewish bible around 800 bc, this was a time when the kingdom of Israel was at war with the Egyptians, so most probably Moses story was a forgery that was entered into the bible as a war time propoganda against the Egyptians during their war against the Israelites.

Interesting thing is that there are many religions that have characters that fit the description of Jesus and Moses perfectly, such as Lord Krishna, Horus, Paris of Troy among many others and their stories were written thousands of years before Jesus or Moses, so most probably the Jews and Christians copied those stories from other religions. There is a consensus amongst historians that Moses and Jesus are not historical characters but rather mythical characters.

What about prophet Muhammad(PBUH) or Moses(PBUH)?

 

[Mughal1]

Most questions nonmuslims raise about mullah islam are good but most people who claim to be muslims do not have the needed knowledge to think at that level. As I always explain mullah islam is not the islam the quran talks about.

Anyone who reads any mullah explanation of the quran will find it full of flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies. It is because those who are put forth as top most muslim scholars of islam have no knowledge of deen of islam based upon the quran.

Mullah islam was invented by palace mullahs after the passing away of the final messenger of God and I have already explained how it all happened in my other posts on this forum.

The problem with most nonmuslims is they are not willing to look into the quran by themselves to arrive at their own conclusions about the quran as individuals. So in my view all such muslims and nonmuslims are two sides of the same coin. So long as people remain in groups and do not allow each other freedom of learning sense of making proper sense of things and thinking things through thoroughly the situation of humanity will remain difficult always.

The main point is, deen of islam based concepts about God are very different from those pushed forth by mazaahib or different versions of religion. Please read my post on different interpretations of five pillars of islam. They mean something very different when looked at from deen of islam perspective from those mullahs and their die hard followers push forth.

If you look at hindu concepts about God you will see them in indian movies. Look at the prayer concepts of hindus, parsis, jews, christians, muslims etc etc. Look at their pilgrimage concept. You will find all versions of religion are exactly the same with different labels. In all versions of religion we are told this is how we ought to worship God. There is no concept of God of rule of law in any religious version. This is not the case with the quran. The quran puts forth concept of a God who works according to a rule of law as explained by him in the quran. Nothing can take place unless it takes place according to a set law of God which we call laws of nature. The quran calls these laws kalimaatullah or sunnatullah in the quran ie God has set up laws for each and everything to work according to it. He always did things the very same way.

You see, in all religious versions people try to fit God in their own plans but fail and become uncomfortable and disappointed with God. The God of the quran is very different. He tells people, he has already planned everything about everyone and everything including himself so nothing can derail his plan and purpose. You can cry all you like to persuade God to do something for you but if it does not suit his plan and purpose it cannot happen. Quranic God does not do things haphazardly.

Deen of islam is not a personality cult at all because it is a rule of law based concept which binds God to his role and all other things according to their roles respectively as individuals however each and every mazhab is only and only a personality cult. This is why people worship their religious figures eg gods, prophets or saints etc. All religious people are grave worshippers or hero worshippers through out the world.

The quran does not allow such a thing at all. This is why there is no concept of intercession in the quran. No concept of sin in the quran. You either live by law of God for ensuring well being of humanity or you break his law and face the related consequences. Religion is a curse not a blessing as priests and mullahs or gurus and pundits or rabbis will have us believe. However it will take a very long time for people to become educated and thinking to realise their mistakes about concepts regarding God and to correct them. Our creativity is so far limited with material world only and we have not yet started thinking at a deeper level about having proper concepts about God in light of his revelations.

This is why many of the things I point out are new for most people. One day they will become common. This is why I think people should try their utmost to gain knowledge and become serious thinkers as individuals and they should stop following mullahs and rabbis and priests and gurus etc etc. Till they do that people with knowledge should carry on educating them as every little bit counts.

The quran is not impossible to understand but it is made very hard by its religious minded interpreters both muslims and nonmuslims who take the readers of their interpretations up the very wrong and very long road. To unwind indoctrinated people is not impossible but it is very, very difficult.

I find nothing wrong in the quranic text but I had to spend a lot of time in figuring out things for myself. Others should do the same if they are truly looking for the truth about God and his revelation.

By starting from negative end, one cannot reach positive conclusion in case of God because in this case negative cannot be proven. Moreover proof is not a fact but an explanation of a fact. In case of God a hidden fact or hidden reality. One has to ask oneself, If God really exists and he is hidden for whatever reason but can be explained, could I be right in negating his existence? It is because for things to come to existence there must exist something already, it is because nothing can never give rise to anything at all. To accept that something can come from nothing at all is pure nonsense. However even if we accept existence of God as a possibility then that existence means nothing for us till God reveals himself to us in some way. This is how God reveals to us his existence by way of rationality and revelation. It is therefore up to us to learn to make proper sense of his revealed message. This is where the problem is ie people are not trying to make proper sense of his message to try to understand his plan and purpose properly. Till people do that things will remain very troublesome for them always as they have been always.

I hope people have read my other posts as well where in I explain the fact that only and only the quran is the book of deen of islam and no other book at all. The question is why that is the case? It is because in the quran it is God who is talking and telling about things and no one else. The quran is narration by God for mankind. Other than the quran there is no book in deen of islam in which God talks as he talks in the quran.

The quran is not a story about God told by muhammad as is the new testament in the bible in which stories about jesus are told by matthew, mark, luke and john etc. If you read the quran it repeatedly tells us it is a message of God for humanity revealed by God himself. No other book in the world today makes claims like the quran. This is why the quran alone is book of deen of islam. All other books are written by people not God. They are written by both muslims as well as nonmuslims about islam. They are full of mistakes and human errors this is why their contents cannot be attributed to God because God cannot make mistakes and is beyond making any errors.

This does not mean human works are totally worthless but that whatever is right in them is good and whatever is wrong in them is bad. However what is right and what is wrong in them has to be judged by some reasonable criterion and that criterion is the quran. However the quran cannot be used as criterion till people learn sense of making proper sense of it and then go ahead and make proper sense of its message. Only and only then they can use the quran as it is supposed to be used. This is why I am working on the quranic message and this is the way to go. By doing what people are doing ie arguing with each other without knowledge they are only wasting each other's time and they are taking each other away from what they are supposed to be doing ie discovering the actual truth about the quran and its message.

So far I have managed to explain to people how they should try and study the quran if they wish to know the truth about it and its message. It is now up to them to do so or not to bother with it at all. I have fully established the fact that words used in the quran have various meanings and the meanings which keep message of the quran consistent with its purpose of revelation are true and only they should be accepted and all the rest are false therefore they should be rejected. I have explained in detail how human languages came about and developed and how they could have been used by God and how human beings can understand message of God in human language ie I have explained the mechanism involved in this whole process. I also explained why the quran is written the way it is.

Unless one pays attention to points like these and puts them together in a sensible way and uses them one will remain confused therefore lost. I can only explain how a sum can be done but to do it is up to individuals themselves. Those who will do it will have the chance of reaching the proper conclusion in this regard but those who will not will have no chance of reaching the proper conclusion. One can only have a chance for winning a race if one participates in it according to rules of the game not otherwise.

As for tafaseer and hadith books' contents they are ok only if they explain things the way they should be explained and not ignorance based explanations. In deen of islam no human being is free of mistakes or human errors. Not even muhammad the final messenger of Allah. This is why criterion is not muhammad or any other person but word of God. If anyone does things according to the book of God he is good and if anyone does things otherwise deliberately then one is condemned to consequences of one's doings. No person who was chosen as his messenger by God ever did anything wrong deliberately but even messengers of God were not free of making odd mistakes according to the quran itself. However they were corrected by God if they did make any mistakes to keep things right. So whatever anyone has written in his book is his words and if bukhaari or muslim or anyone else has narrated wrong things about God or any of his messengers then he will be disregarded for doing that. However in hadith books things are narrated about the prophet on basis of various authorities therefore weaker links in the chains of narrations will be dropped or disregarded rather than the whole book of narrations because each narration is an independent account of an event.

I have explained all these points in detail in my various posts already so I see no point in going over and over the same again and again as I am very limited on time. I have explain all major points about the quran and deen of islam for all to learn and benefit from. All that remains for me to do is, to have my own interpretation of the quran according to what I have explained and for that I need a lot of time on my hand and hopefully a bit more life that allows me to complete my work on the quran. Once that is done things will change in a big way. May be someone will reach there long before me as I have explained what sort of work is needed on the quran to make its message obvious in a proper way. So far I am happy I have done my bit but I would love to do more to save others from using their time on these things so that they could do many other things which also need to be done for ensuring well being of humanity.

According to deen of islam or quranic teachings human beings are supposed to do works of God and not be weaklings as God has placed huge trust and potential in humanity that is why he has bestowed it with sense of responsibility and accountability. According to mazaahib people should not play God. A huge difference between teachings of deen of islam and different versions of religion.