؟؟؟ freedom of speech ???
- Thread starter پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر
- Start date
sadani
Minister (2k+ posts)
There is famous saying in Urdu that "Poot ka paon palne me hi nazar aa jate hen" which means you can figure out in start how well this particular issue will go ahead in future.....
Actually the question is WHY these so called democratic governments could not complete their turns ??? of course due to their poor performance .... People were fed up of their performance in just initial 2-3 years so that they decided to have a mass movement against them.
By the way, PPP did completed their tenure ( almost ) in 70s and in 2008 .
Nawaz and Shahbaz Shareef ruled in Punjab for FIVE-SIX times , yet they were unable to produce anything.
PPP ruled in Sindh for almost 6 times but a BIG ZERO for their performance.
In contrast if you compare it to early days of Military Rule, they all were extra ordinary good in their staring days.... Ask someone from old generation about initial 5 years of Ayub Era.
You would think it as a joke, but during that time, Children were offered Free Milk during School Classes Break.
Similarly Musharraf first 5-6 years were awesome ( keeping aside his decision on WOT ).
Again, Military Rule were better in performance than these so called democratic rule thats why people are not bothered about Army bashing.
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macbeth
Minister (2k+ posts)
نواب لگتا ھے آجکل سائیں قائم علی شاہ کی صحبت میں زیادہ وقت گزار رھے ھو جوکانسیپٹ بھی لہرا کر کینسیو کر رھے ھو۔۔۔ حضور والا میرا اشارہ مسکین صورت پرفیکٹ اجنبی کی طرف تھا۔۔۔
Joker, Ak47 post threads and I don't think that they receive the same response as you do.
Instead of preemptive harsh tone a reactive approach would be more helpful.
His premise is that you shouldn't criticize someone who is already corrupt, duplicitous, insincere and that we should only go after the ones who are claiming to be honest, incorruptible, sincere and shred them to pieces if they falter ;-)
پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
My Point : Pakistani People does not have same level of Hatred for Army Rule Era as what they have for Political Parties Era.
Now, Lets Analyze Army Era one by one :
1 - Ayub Khan Era ( 1960s ) :
Well I am a karachiite and usually we do not have good feelings for Ayub Khan for shifting capital from KHI to ISB and doing rigging in 1962 elections against Mother of Nation Ms. Fatimah Jinnah ,
But having said that,
Ayub Khan's Era was best in terms of initial industrialization , Pakistan was emerging as an Asian Tiger and was far ahead than Korea, Singapore, Hongkong etc , Pakistani Institutions were stable e.g; PIA, Railway, Wapda , Various big dam were built , National Television was started which is a form of modern technology as per 1960s ... There are pros and cons of that era , cons may include separatist feeling among bangalis, BUT overall West Pakistani Nation was happy with his era till 1967.
Whole Nation fought war of 1965 under his leadership and still people feel proud of his historic speech which he delivered on Radio and TV.
So my point is Ayub Khan's era was not that bad as few of us think...... His era was definitely better than anyother democratic era, Before him Pakistan's democratic system was a mockery, Every year there used to be a new prime minister ( during 1950s ) So Ayub brought political stability to pakistan in early 1960s.
Ref : http://iba.edu.pk/News/speechesarticles_drishrat/Economic_policies_under_Shaoib.pdf
2 - Zia-Ul-Haq Era
Unfortunately Pakistan was threatended by Russian Red Revolution on its Western Border so Zia had to make a decision of safe guarding pakistan against Soviet Union.
He took some very strict decision , specially related to religious fundamentalism but those all were to save Pakistan from Soviet Red Revolution.
Those who have a concern that Zia could have choosed another strategy forget that Soviet Union was not interested in Afghanistan but their ultimate motive was to have a presence on warm waters of Indian Ocean. Basically Pakistan was their final target in region.
As far as Economic Policies are concerned, Zia Era was also not bad if you compare it to Political Regimes.
See below figures , both Ayub(60s) and Zia(80s) Era stands out from Political Era as far as Economic Conditions are concerned.
3 - Musharraf's Era :
Well , We all may disagree to his policy towards WOT but to be honest his tenure from 2000-2005 was excellent from economic point of view. Businessmen were really happy and development work was carried out all across pakistan. Ask any Islamabad guy about Kamran Lashari, Ask any Karachiite about Mustafa Kamal.
Also no one can say anything about corruption in Musharraf Era.
Conclusion:
Army Rule has been cited as less corrupt, economically more prosperous as compare to Political rule.
Pakistani People does not have same level of hatred towards Army Rule as what they have for Democratic Rule.
یہاں یہ مت بھولیئے کہ فوجی آمر کچھ قووتوں کے لئے لاڈلا فرمابردار بیٹے کا کردار ادا کرتے ہیں۔
گھر کی دیواریں گر جائیں چھت ٹپکنے لگے ۔ لیکن گھر میں فریج ٹی وی واشنگ مشین آجائے تو اسے آپ خوشحالی کا دور کہیں گے ؟
یہ وقتی خوشی ہے ۔ لیکن نقصان سالوں پر محیط ہے ۔ ایوب کے دور میں پاکستان کی آبادی نا ہونے کے برابر تھی ۔ ایک کماتا تھا 10 کھاتے تھے ۔ اس کا موازنہ آج کے حالات سے نہی کیا جاسکتا ہے ۔
میرے دوست آرمی دور کا موازنہ سیاسی دور سے تب کیا جائے جب سیاستدانوں کو بھی کم از کم پانچ سال تک حکومت کرنے کا موقع دیا جاتا۔ ایک آمر کم از کم اگر دس سال حکومت کرتا ہے تو اس کے مقابلے میں وہ ایک سیاستدان کو دو ڈھائی سال بھی نکالنے کا موقع نہی دیتا۔ جگہ جگہ روڑے اٹکائے جاتے ہیں۔
پاکستان کی سیاسی حکومتوں کے ادوار پر فوج نے اپنی آمریت مسلط کی۔ لہذا ان کا دونوں کے ادوار کا موازنہ کرنا درست نہی ۔
اگر 9/11 نہ ہوتا تو مشرف کو کوئی سپورٹ کرتا ؟ 9/11 سے پہلے تو مشرف کوئی پوچھتا تک نہی تھا۔ یاد کرو وہ دور جب لوگ سب کچھ بیچ باچ کر ملک چھوڑ رہے تھے۔ پھر ایک دم باہر سے ڈالر کا سیلاب آیا اور مشرف کی جھولی بھری گئی ۔ اور ملک کی معاشی حالت بہتر نظر آنے لگی۔
یہی کچھ ضیا کو افغان جنگ میں ملا۔
.
سب تمھار ی اس منافقت اور جھوٹ کی وجہ سے تمھہں لتیڑتے ہیں
پی پی پی نے دوسری بار اپنی باری پوری کی
پچھلے ۲۵ سال سے ن لیگ پنجاب ک حکمرا ن ہے
عمران کا مشرف کو سپورٹ کرنا بہت یاد آتا ہے جناب عمران نے پوری قوم سے معافی مانگ لی تھی
اور اپنی گھلتی تسلیم کی تھی
پی پی پی کا لیڈر ایوب خان کو ڈیڈی کہتا تھا اور نواز شریف کا ڈیڈی جرنل ذیاہ تھا
وہ تم کو نظر نہں آتا
نواز نے اج تک معافی نہیں مانگی
مشرف کے بندے نواز لیگ اور پی پی پی میں زیادہ ہیں
وہ تم کو نظر نہیں اتے
اسی لیے سب تم کو منافق کہتے ہیں کیوں کہ تمہارہ مسلہ صرف ایک بندہ اور پارٹی ہے
تم ایک ہی بات پہ نواز اور پی پی پی کے وکیل بن جاتے ہو اور اُسی بات پہ عمران کو گالیںاں دیتے ہو
اب یہ منافقت نہں تو اور کیا ہے
پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
ایک دفعہ اس نے مجھے گالی دے کر اپنی پوسٹ خود ڈلیٹ کی تھی ۔ جیسے ایڈمن کرتا ہے اور پھر اس کا نام اس پر ظاہر ہوتا ہے ۔
اور کل یہی تھا جس نے گھٹنیہ الزام لگانے کے بعد فورا! مجھے بین کیا۔
پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
یہاں بولنے کا پیمانہ ہے ؟ اور تو کون ہوتا ہے مجھے بولنے سے روکنے والا؟
تیرا مسلہ کیا ہے ؟
بول ؟
کیا تکلیف ہے تجھے ؟
اور تو تمیز مجھے سکھائے گا گھٹیہ انسان۔ تو نے مجھے کتا کہا۔ تو نے مجھے کنجر کہا ۔
Joker
Minister (2k+ posts)
Freedom of speech is right but not
(serious)آپ کچا آم اور املی نمک کے ساتھ کھایں . انشاللہ افاقہ ہو گا
Lets examine this a little bit and you will notice how this data is skewed. You have to look at things in totality and not in isolation.
Do you really think that all of this growth was indigenous? How much of these growth spurts had to with the aid that we received from USA and other western countries.
Just take Musharraf era. They cite the growth but no one mentions that we received around $20B just from US. If you add the money we received from the US to what was being promised by the beeline of all the western leaders and others, visiting pakistan after 9/11, then the sum would probably be around $25B. What do we have to show for all that money? Just a few flyovers in Karachi and a water scheme? What was Musharraf era's big achievement? A few universities? Did we lay the foundations to build on that 'growth rate' thats being reported? The answer is a big NO.
This growth rate shown on paper is a mirage to keep people happy during the times of the dictator while we do the bidding of the western powers.
Just check it out. Ayub era was the time we were at the forefront of the cold war between the super power and were actually part of CENTO and SEATO.
Then we all know what happened during the Zia era.
You would notice how the tap, which is at full flow during the dictatorships, dries up so fast during the civilian governments. (I am in no way endorsing the corruption of our politicians).
Check this graph out. See how the aid beautifully and coincidentally aligns with the time of dictatorship in Pakistan. Pay special attention to the 1990s.
History of US Obligations to Pakistan, millions US$(2011)
Do you really think that all of this growth was indigenous? How much of these growth spurts had to with the aid that we received from USA and other western countries.
Just take Musharraf era. They cite the growth but no one mentions that we received around $20B just from US. If you add the money we received from the US to what was being promised by the beeline of all the western leaders and others, visiting pakistan after 9/11, then the sum would probably be around $25B. What do we have to show for all that money? Just a few flyovers in Karachi and a water scheme? What was Musharraf era's big achievement? A few universities? Did we lay the foundations to build on that 'growth rate' thats being reported? The answer is a big NO.
This growth rate shown on paper is a mirage to keep people happy during the times of the dictator while we do the bidding of the western powers.
Just check it out. Ayub era was the time we were at the forefront of the cold war between the super power and were actually part of CENTO and SEATO.
Then we all know what happened during the Zia era.
You would notice how the tap, which is at full flow during the dictatorships, dries up so fast during the civilian governments. (I am in no way endorsing the corruption of our politicians).
Check this graph out. See how the aid beautifully and coincidentally aligns with the time of dictatorship in Pakistan. Pay special attention to the 1990s.
History of US Obligations to Pakistan, millions US$(2011)
My Point : Pakistani People does not have same level of Hatred for Army Rule Era as what they have for Political Parties Era.
Now, Lets Analyze Army Era one by one :
1 - Ayub Khan Era ( 1960s ) :
Well I am a karachiite and usually we do not have good feelings for Ayub Khan for shifting capital from KHI to ISB and doing rigging in 1962 elections against Mother of Nation Ms. Fatimah Jinnah ,
But having said that,
Ayub Khan's Era was best in terms of initial industrialization , Pakistan was emerging as an Asian Tiger and was far ahead than Korea, Singapore, Hongkong etc , Pakistani Institutions were stable e.g; PIA, Railway, Wapda , Various big dam were built , National Television was started which is a form of modern technology as per 1960s ... There are pros and cons of that era , cons may include separatist feeling among bangalis, BUT overall West Pakistani Nation was happy with his era till 1967.
Whole Nation fought war of 1965 under his leadership and still people feel proud of his historic speech which he delivered on Radio and TV.
So my point is Ayub Khan's era was not that bad as few of us think...... His era was definitely better than anyother democratic era, Before him Pakistan's democratic system was a mockery, Every year there used to be a new prime minister ( during 1950s ) So Ayub brought political stability to pakistan in early 1960s.
Ref : http://iba.edu.pk/News/speechesarticles_drishrat/Economic_policies_under_Shaoib.pdf
2 - Zia-Ul-Haq Era
Unfortunately Pakistan was threatended by Russian Red Revolution on its Western Border so Zia had to make a decision of safe guarding pakistan against Soviet Union.
He took some very strict decision , specially related to religious fundamentalism but those all were to save Pakistan from Soviet Red Revolution.
Those who have a concern that Zia could have choosed another strategy forget that Soviet Union was not interested in Afghanistan but their ultimate motive was to have a presence on warm waters of Indian Ocean. Basically Pakistan was their final target in region.
As far as Economic Policies are concerned, Zia Era was also not bad if you compare it to Political Regimes.
See below figures , both Ayub(60s) and Zia(80s) Era stands out from Political Era as far as Economic Conditions are concerned.
3 - Musharraf's Era :
Well , We all may disagree to his policy towards WOT but to be honest his tenure from 2000-2005 was excellent from economic point of view. Businessmen were really happy and development work was carried out all across pakistan. Ask any Islamabad guy about Kamran Lashari, Ask any Karachiite about Mustafa Kamal.
Also no one can say anything about corruption in Musharraf Era.
Conclusion:
Army Rule has been cited as less corrupt, economically more prosperous as compare to Political rule.
Pakistani People does not have same level of hatred towards Army Rule as what they have for Democratic Rule.
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Sohraab
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
yaar ab tumhare saath bhi mazaq na karain to phir kis ke saath karain :)
Raaz
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
بد روح تو تم ہو ، ہمارا کام تو رپورٹ کرنا ہے
تم خود لوگوں کو گالیاں دیتے ہو ، اور کئی مرتبہ بین ہو چکے ہو ، حتی کہ تمہیں اپنی ائی دی بھی بدلنی پڑی
میں تو کہوں گا کہ اگرتمہیں بین کیا تو کھولا کیوں ؟
sadani
Minister (2k+ posts)
What was the end result ?
A prosperous Pakistan having an stable economy.
and by the way are we saying that democratic did not get any assistance from US/EU ???
No Sir, they tried but failed to get any assistance due to their lame foreign policy and internal mismanagement ...
So what if Military regimes proved to be cunning enough to get these assistance from west, After all whole pakistan benefited from it.
macbeth
Minister (2k+ posts)
صدقے تھیواں۔۔۔
تیری مذاق رات میں بھی اک ادائے دلنواز ھے۔۔
الجھا جو اس بھنور میں زندگی اسکی خوار ھے۔۔
پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Sohraab
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
bus dear , mazaq ko samjha karo , warna zindagi barri bore bore hi ho jai gi , meri zindagi ki hard disk main to waise bhi koi na koi virus har waqt rehta hai
amir_ali
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@پرفیکٹ سٹرینجر
Janab a famous saying is that When in Rome do as the Roman do, I'll surely not ask you to do as people over here do, but I'll surely request you to chose your words wisely. When you say that Pakistanis are Munafiq, people will get angry, obviously not all Pakistanis are munafiqs.
Even though I appreciate your usual input in this forum and I think you know that, but what you said yesterday, it was a general remark and it was on all of us Pakistanis, it was certainly below the belt and I feel that the admin were right to a certain extent.
But still I wrote a comment in your favor, not because I liked what you said, but because many other users had made similar comments in the past here and they were not banned.
I'll just request you to take your words back and apologize for that remark, be the better person here that you are.
Regards
AA!!!
Janab a famous saying is that When in Rome do as the Roman do, I'll surely not ask you to do as people over here do, but I'll surely request you to chose your words wisely. When you say that Pakistanis are Munafiq, people will get angry, obviously not all Pakistanis are munafiqs.
Even though I appreciate your usual input in this forum and I think you know that, but what you said yesterday, it was a general remark and it was on all of us Pakistanis, it was certainly below the belt and I feel that the admin were right to a certain extent.
But still I wrote a comment in your favor, not because I liked what you said, but because many other users had made similar comments in the past here and they were not banned.
I'll just request you to take your words back and apologize for that remark, be the better person here that you are.
Regards
AA!!!
Raaz
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
;)بس ، میں تو جوکروں کا پہلے ہی بہت شوق سے شکار کرتا ہوں .... اب تو بچ جا میرے سے
ویسے تمہیں ہر ایک پر شک ہوتا ہے سواۓ نواز شریف کے .... کیا کیا جاۓ
