Wasta aur Waseela de kar dua Mangna
- Thread starter Sohraab
- Start date
crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am disappointed brother. Quoting the Holy Quran out of context is not a good practice. You tried to prove from the verse of the Holy Quran that somehow the intercession in this world is allowed in the Holy Quran.
You should have quoted the previous verses in each instance to complete the context in which the intercession is described.
2:254 O YOU who have attained to faith! Spend [in Our way] out of what We have granted you as sustenance ere there come a Day when there will be no bargaining, and no friendship, and no intercession. And they who deny the truth -it is they who are evildoers!
The above verse 2:254 is describing the day of the judgement. Not the life on this earth. 2:255 is continuation of this theme. On the Day of the Judgement, Allah SWT would grant the intercession to whomever He so will.
In the same context one should also read the following verses, for example 2:257
2:257 God is near unto those who have faith, taking them out of deep darkness into the light - whereas near unto those who are bent on denying the truth are the powers of evil that take them out of the light into darkness deep: it is they who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.
It is only Allah SWT takes one out of the darkness into the light, no one else.
Have fear of Allah SWT in your hearts, Amen.
20:108 On that Day, all will. follow the summoning Voice from which there will be no escape; and all sounds will be hushed before the Most Gracious, and thou wilt hear nothing but a faint sough in the air.
20:109 On that Day, intercession shall be of no avail [to any] save him in whose case the Most Gracious will have granted leave therefor, and whose word [of faith) He will have accepted:
Once again the verse you quoted is for the Day of the Judgement not for the intercession on this earth.
The next verse you quoted had the following preceding verse;
34:22 SAY: Call upon those [beings] whom you imagine [to be endowed with divine powers] beside God: they have not an atoms weight of power either in the heavens or on earth, nor have they any share in [governing] either, nor does He [choose to] have any helper from among them.
Shouldn't you pay heed to what 34:22 said before moving to 34:23? On what day Allah SWT be asking those who have taken other as deities and persons to call upon on those who they perceived to had been endowed with the divine powers?
You didn't even quoted 34:23 in full ,
34:23And, before Him, intercession can be of no avail [to any] save one in whose case He may have granted leave [there for]: so much so that when the terror [of the Last Hour] is lifted from their hearts, they [who have been resurrected] will ask [one an*other], What has your Sustainer decreed [for you]? - [to which] the others will answer, Whatever is true and deserved - for He alone is exalted, great!
Once again without shadow of a doubt, the Holy Quran is describing the Day of the Judgement not the time on this earth.
| أَمْ لِلْإِنسَانِ مَا تَمَنَّى (53:24) | ||
| 53:24 Does man imagine that it is his due to have all that he might wish for, | ||
| فَلِلَّهِ الْآخِرَةُ وَالْأُولَى (53:25) 53:25 despite the fact that [both] the life to come and this present [one] belong to God [alone]? You have to read both verses together to get the right context. 53:24 ends on "Matammani" for humans, i.e. the wishes of the men, 53:25 despite the fact that both the lives belong to God alone? Like the particle "Ma" in 53:24 for the wishes of the men, the particle "Fa" is used in 53:25 denoting the context that God is Omnipotent and Omniscient and does not, therefore, require any "mediator" between Himself and His creatures.
|
21:28 He knows all that lies open before them and all that is hidden from them: hence, they cannot intercede for any but those whom He has [already] graced with His goodly acceptance, since they themselves stand in reverent awe of Him.
Please don't quote Holy Quran out of context.
43:85 And hallowed be He unto whom the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them belongs, and with whom the knowledge of the Last Hour rests, and unto whom you all shall be brought back!
43:86And those [beings] whom some invoke beside God have it not in their power to intercede [on Judgment Day] for any but such as have [in their lifetime] borne witness to the truth, and have been aware [that God is one and unique].
Each and every instance you quoted out of context is for the day of the Judgement.
I have already quoted the verse of the Holy Quran earlier describing the dialouge between Allah SWT and Prophet Isa As on the Day of the Judgement, he As would be answering to God that he had no right to say, what is only the Domain of God. Had he As said it, Allah SWT with His infinite wisdom and knowledge would have known it.
Let's look at the concept of "intercession" in the Holy Quran.
10:3 VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness, governing all that exists. There is none that could intercede with Him unless He grants leave therefor. Thus is God, your Sustainer: worship, therefore, Him [alone]: will you not, then, keep this in mind?
"There is no intercessor whatever, save after His leave [has been granted]". 2:255 - "Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave?" Thus, the Quran rejects the popular belief in unqualified "intercession" by living or dead saints or prophets. As is shown elsewhere in the Quran (e.g., in 20:109, 21:28 or 34:23), God will grant to His prophets on Judgment Day the permission to "intercede", symbolically, for such of the sinners as will have already achieved His redemptive acceptance (rida') by virtue of their repentance or basic goodness.
19:87 [on that Day] none will have [the benefit of] intercession unless he has [in his lifetime] entered into a bond with the Most Gracious.
Lit., "except him who has.. .", etc. According to the classical commentators -including some of the most outstanding Companions of the Prophet-the "bond with God" denotes, in this context, the realization of His oneness and uniqueness; Consequently it is pointed out by Razi, even great sinners may hope for God's forgiveness - symbolically expressed by the right of "intercession" which will be granted to the prophets on Judgment Day provided that, during their life on earth, they were aware of God's existence and oneness.
In other words, the right of "intercession" thus granted to the prophets will be but an expression of God's approval of the latter. Furthermore, the above denial of the possibility of unqualified intercession stresses, indirectly, not only God's omniscience - which requires no "mediator" - but also the immutability of His will: and thus it connects with the preceding mention of His Almightiness.
Azaad Alfaaz
Senator (1k+ posts)
Problem is people don't Read Quran ! Pak people If read it they read as manter(magic), It's like I can read chines book but have no clue what its saying and Believing its helping me. Its like "bhains ke agey been bajana" . shia suni bralvi deobandi muslims etc blah blah all these stupids don't know Quran tells them to call yourself "MUSLIM" Only in Islam !! when you point out any speaker how will you judge him ? If you don't know your own book Quran. speaker like Qadari/Padri and many more points out people that they are SINNERS that's why Allah wont listen to them so they need Waseela! to reach Allah for their needs to fulfill. That why Mayosee from Allah it's self KUFER.!! Allah listen to all and whom ever Allah wish fulfill his/her needs !! even for stone worshiper! grave worshiper! even for person who don't believe in Allah.
Then Why Call upon your sheikh, Wali , Data, !!
Darrod shrif << READ its meaning ITSELF is asking ALLAH to give Benefits to messengers of Allah (peace be upon them).
modern.fakir
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Proof from the Qur'an about Waseela (bigsmile)
Allah Most High says in the Holy Qur'an:
[SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] [/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱبۡتَغُوٓاْ إِلَيۡهِ[/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] ٱلۡوَسِيلَةَ[/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] وَجَـٰهِدُواْ فِى سَبِيلِهِۦ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (٣٥)[/FONT][/SIZE]
"O you who Believe! Do your duties to Allah and fear Him; seek the means of approach unto him, and strive (with might and main) in His cause so that you may prosper [Sura Ma'ida, verse 35]
In this verse, Allah has informed us to seek ways of obtaining wasila, a means to approach Him. Our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) is our wasila in this world and the hereafter.
Allah Most High says in the Holy Qur'an:
"Before that, they were asking for victory over the infidels by means of the same Prophet"
[Sura Baqara, verse 89]
Imam Tabari, Hafiz ibn al-Qayyim, Hafiz ibn Kathir and Qadi Shawkani write that before the birth of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) the Jews would make the Prophet a wasila in their supplications, when asking Allah to defeat their enemies in battle.
[Tafsir Ibn Jareer, Tafsir Ibn Kathir & Tafsir Fath ul-Qadir Shawkani, Ibn al-Qayyim, Hadaya-tul-Hayara, under Sura Baqara, page 89 and 95]
Some may object to this by saying that this was an act of the Jews, hence it cannot be used as evidence for Muslims. However, Allah has mentioned this event in the Qur'an and did not condemn this, therefore demonstrating its permissibility.
Allah Most High says in the Holy Qur'an:
[SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] [/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont]يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱبۡتَغُوٓاْ إِلَيۡهِ[/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] ٱلۡوَسِيلَةَ[/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=5.2][FONT=PDMS_IslamicFont] وَجَـٰهِدُواْ فِى سَبِيلِهِۦ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (٣٥)[/FONT][/SIZE]
"O you who Believe! Do your duties to Allah and fear Him; seek the means of approach unto him, and strive (with might and main) in His cause so that you may prosper [Sura Ma'ida, verse 35]
In this verse, Allah has informed us to seek ways of obtaining wasila, a means to approach Him. Our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) is our wasila in this world and the hereafter.
Allah Most High says in the Holy Qur'an:
"Before that, they were asking for victory over the infidels by means of the same Prophet"
[Sura Baqara, verse 89]
Imam Tabari, Hafiz ibn al-Qayyim, Hafiz ibn Kathir and Qadi Shawkani write that before the birth of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) the Jews would make the Prophet a wasila in their supplications, when asking Allah to defeat their enemies in battle.
[Tafsir Ibn Jareer, Tafsir Ibn Kathir & Tafsir Fath ul-Qadir Shawkani, Ibn al-Qayyim, Hadaya-tul-Hayara, under Sura Baqara, page 89 and 95]
Some may object to this by saying that this was an act of the Jews, hence it cannot be used as evidence for Muslims. However, Allah has mentioned this event in the Qur'an and did not condemn this, therefore demonstrating its permissibility.
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Ali raza babar
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
یار وہ تو نحن اقرب علیکم میں حبلل ورید افلا تبصروں فرماتا ہے ؟ کہتا ہے میں تمہاری شہرگ سے بھی زیادہ قریب ہوں اگر تم دیکھ سکو .
تو بھائی ہاتھ اٹھا کر کیوں مانگتے ہو .. اسے اوپر والا کیوں کہتے ہو ؟ کعبہ کیوں جاتے ہو ؟ کیا ڈھونڈنے جاتے ہو جب وہ شہرگ سے بھی زیادہ قریب ہے .
بات سیدھی سی ہے . وہ آیات ال کرسی میں فرماتا ہے کے کون ہے جو میری اجازت کے بغیر سفارش بھی کر سکے .
اب اس سے ظاہر ہے . سفارش وہی کرے گا جسے اجازت ہو . اور پھر ظاہر ہے . کرواے گا بھی وہی جسے اجازت ہو ..
اب کسی کے نصیب خراب ہوں تو کیا کرے بندہ
تو بھائی ہاتھ اٹھا کر کیوں مانگتے ہو .. اسے اوپر والا کیوں کہتے ہو ؟ کعبہ کیوں جاتے ہو ؟ کیا ڈھونڈنے جاتے ہو جب وہ شہرگ سے بھی زیادہ قریب ہے .
بات سیدھی سی ہے . وہ آیات ال کرسی میں فرماتا ہے کے کون ہے جو میری اجازت کے بغیر سفارش بھی کر سکے .
اب اس سے ظاہر ہے . سفارش وہی کرے گا جسے اجازت ہو . اور پھر ظاہر ہے . کرواے گا بھی وہی جسے اجازت ہو ..
اب کسی کے نصیب خراب ہوں تو کیا کرے بندہ
And please Dont Quote anything Irrelevant in reply to this comment
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LovelyVirus
Senator (1k+ posts)
on the other hand I think you are still doing 'aain baain shaain' and delibertly trying to ignore the arguments (either given by me or in articles) because they challenge your life long beliefs but this is nothing new, part of nature of man and only few can overcome the ego to accept that they have been wrong all along, hence the diverting tactics people use.
What part I don't understand of the articles I quoted please help me :). It's not important for me to know what beliefs the owner of websites carry but there is nothing wrong in what has been said in the linked articles. If there is any then point out instead of doing aain baain shaain (easy copt out).
You don't get the point of quoting idol worshipper as example and one of the source inspiring intercession in muslims. For an argument sake let's assume there was no idol worshipping in algerians before they became christians. But do you really think christianity has no form of intercession? Do you even know what are there beliefs? Jesus son of God, rings any bell? Don't they believe that Jesus came to clear the sins of mankind (implying that God himself was not willing to forgive the sins)....what will you call it if not intercession? Same goes for Zorostrians who use fire and water medium to gain spirtual insight and wisdom...what is it if not idol worshiping? Can you list any other religion which has not associated/used some sort of 'means/intercession' to connect to God? Why would Allah repeatedly warn and forbid us from intercession and gave us examples of past religions/idol worshippers who were indulge in intercessions? If it was such a simple and easy way for muslism then Allah would have made it clear in Quran isn't it? there was no need to forbid it at all! PONDER!
not again this aaaiin baain shaain...
Actually this is the way mullahs have teach the sheeps to focus on asusmptions and blaming others , indulging in firqa parasti, so that they can rule over the gullible lots. When the arguments are clear cuts and when you don't have answers to them you start looking for excuses, start looking for firqa relevant things so that you can easily cop out by labeling others of some imaginative firqa/groups. It's clear that you can'T debate on the merit of contents hence all this 'aain baain shaain'.
You are welcome to quote hadith although for the topic in hand when Qurnaic verses are clear and you can't argu against them then there is no need left for hadith. Again it's your diverting tactics and now want to hide behind hadith hoping that the other party in debate might as well over rule the Quranic verse in favor of hadith. This doesn't work my friend because the no hadith can over rule or contradict Quran and if it does then you and me knows it is not a true hadith :)
Word waseelah is from root WOW,SEEN and LAAM. its concrete root meaning is means to an end. Its conceptual meanings are way or medium etc. This word is used in the quran eg in 5/35 and 17/57. The question is, what does this word mean in the quranic context? I would love to know how many people here have any idea of the quranic context. How long you have been studying the quran in depth and detail? Unless one has come to realisation that the quran has to have a set purpose and that is the main thing that decides what words in the quran mean.
Anyone who has read the quran in detail is bound to realise that the quran is written in a way that it can never be translated properly at all. The best any scholar of the quran can do is translate the concepts of words in the quran because the quran is written that way. Since each word has a number of concepts attached to it one has to know which is the right one and one can never know that unless one really understands the message of the quran. This is not an easy job. It matters not how long you spent in a madrassa or with molvies because molvies are madarras not scholars. They teach aqaaids of earlier people as they have left behind in their books as they are wihtout really questioning things.
Test any molvi you want here is a formula brain+data/information+thinking process=knowledge in sense of understanding and understanding+action=destination or goal or success.
Likewise brain+senses+life time learning experience through trial and error+divine revelation according to life time learning=true understanding of God and humanity.
See if any of you can disprove these rules. If you cannot then you should stick to them. If you stick to them then islam is not a mazhab but a deen=way of life. The quran state a goal for mankind ie islam=to establish peace in the world. The quran then sets some terms and conditions without which it says peace cannot be had ie peaceful world is impossible unless people learn to live by certain terms and conditions. The quran sets out duties or responsibilities and rights for people as a constitution and rules and regulations for organisation of humanity and its running. The quran tells us that even though God has created a vast universe and man as a tiny dot in the earth that seems insignificant yet he placed in this tiny dot potential that one day he will be able to manage the universe according to the will of God. Man has yet to gradually grow to that stage like a tiny seed of a tree that grows into a huge tree. By looking at a tiny seed one wonders how it could be a huge tree but when it happens before his eyes it surprises man. So man has yet numberless great things to do in this universe.
All this tells us what meanings of word waseelah will fit the context of the quran. Since islam is not a mazhab but a deen so mazhabi concept of waseelah that exists in religions does not fit the quranic context. It is because religions have concepts of sins and atonement or forgiveness therefore intercession and intervention or ritualism and duaa etc for personal salvation from punishment by God. Our mullahs have been borrowing concepts from other religions that is why islam is full of concepts that have nothing at all to do with quran. Islam is more about perfect running of human society so that one day man could conquer the universe for the good of mankind. That is the real reason why Allah created man.
ibaadah in quranic sense means consistency with requirements so that set out purpose of the one who demands consistency may be fulfilled. Since Allah gave us quran as a manifesto to make its program manifest with help of each other therefore the need for spreading its message in order to get support of each other. In order to unite and organise people need basis hence the quran is divine constitution for them. Since organisation must run smoothly hence the laws, rules and regulations and rights and responsibilities etc. This is why by abiding by the quran=divine constitution people are fulfilling divine objective that is set out for them ie establishing peace=islam. This is why human freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity is islam and not other baseless religious stuff.
Since islam is not about uneven human society instead it is all for removing all caste and class based divisions therefore concept of some body intervening on behalf of anyone is wrong in the context that people believe in it because it interferes with justice and fairness concept of islam. If people are told such things then they lose sense of responsibility because then they think doing wrong is not bad because ultimately someone will save me. This world is hell only because people are not playing the game as told by God if they did it will have been a paradise. So nonsense religious beliefs are responsible for a great number of ills even if not all of them.
intervention is only good when it is done when something is doing wrong to correct him or to correct whatever is gone or done wrong. For example, if people in a society are doing something wrong or doing something in a wrong way and someone has become aware of it so he has to intervene appropriately to prevent the damage that may be caused to community or any particular person.
It is not hard to understand that if we had a good constitution and laws etc and we all lived by that as people and institutions then you can imagine what kind of society can emerge from that?
I hope people here think about what I have been explaining here for a while. I am very much hopeful that reason will prevail therefore islam=peace will prevail.
The quran therefore tells us anyone who intervene for good will have good results and anyone who intervene for bad will get results for that. So if you interfere with things with bad intentions against humanity then you are not welcome but if you support good things for the good of mankind then you are welcome. Such actions will create a better world so people will benefit from that and the person will also rewarded for that in hereafter.
Anyone who has read the quran in detail is bound to realise that the quran is written in a way that it can never be translated properly at all. The best any scholar of the quran can do is translate the concepts of words in the quran because the quran is written that way. Since each word has a number of concepts attached to it one has to know which is the right one and one can never know that unless one really understands the message of the quran. This is not an easy job. It matters not how long you spent in a madrassa or with molvies because molvies are madarras not scholars. They teach aqaaids of earlier people as they have left behind in their books as they are wihtout really questioning things.
Test any molvi you want here is a formula brain+data/information+thinking process=knowledge in sense of understanding and understanding+action=destination or goal or success.
Likewise brain+senses+life time learning experience through trial and error+divine revelation according to life time learning=true understanding of God and humanity.
See if any of you can disprove these rules. If you cannot then you should stick to them. If you stick to them then islam is not a mazhab but a deen=way of life. The quran state a goal for mankind ie islam=to establish peace in the world. The quran then sets some terms and conditions without which it says peace cannot be had ie peaceful world is impossible unless people learn to live by certain terms and conditions. The quran sets out duties or responsibilities and rights for people as a constitution and rules and regulations for organisation of humanity and its running. The quran tells us that even though God has created a vast universe and man as a tiny dot in the earth that seems insignificant yet he placed in this tiny dot potential that one day he will be able to manage the universe according to the will of God. Man has yet to gradually grow to that stage like a tiny seed of a tree that grows into a huge tree. By looking at a tiny seed one wonders how it could be a huge tree but when it happens before his eyes it surprises man. So man has yet numberless great things to do in this universe.
All this tells us what meanings of word waseelah will fit the context of the quran. Since islam is not a mazhab but a deen so mazhabi concept of waseelah that exists in religions does not fit the quranic context. It is because religions have concepts of sins and atonement or forgiveness therefore intercession and intervention or ritualism and duaa etc for personal salvation from punishment by God. Our mullahs have been borrowing concepts from other religions that is why islam is full of concepts that have nothing at all to do with quran. Islam is more about perfect running of human society so that one day man could conquer the universe for the good of mankind. That is the real reason why Allah created man.
ibaadah in quranic sense means consistency with requirements so that set out purpose of the one who demands consistency may be fulfilled. Since Allah gave us quran as a manifesto to make its program manifest with help of each other therefore the need for spreading its message in order to get support of each other. In order to unite and organise people need basis hence the quran is divine constitution for them. Since organisation must run smoothly hence the laws, rules and regulations and rights and responsibilities etc. This is why by abiding by the quran=divine constitution people are fulfilling divine objective that is set out for them ie establishing peace=islam. This is why human freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity is islam and not other baseless religious stuff.
Since islam is not about uneven human society instead it is all for removing all caste and class based divisions therefore concept of some body intervening on behalf of anyone is wrong in the context that people believe in it because it interferes with justice and fairness concept of islam. If people are told such things then they lose sense of responsibility because then they think doing wrong is not bad because ultimately someone will save me. This world is hell only because people are not playing the game as told by God if they did it will have been a paradise. So nonsense religious beliefs are responsible for a great number of ills even if not all of them.
intervention is only good when it is done when something is doing wrong to correct him or to correct whatever is gone or done wrong. For example, if people in a society are doing something wrong or doing something in a wrong way and someone has become aware of it so he has to intervene appropriately to prevent the damage that may be caused to community or any particular person.
It is not hard to understand that if we had a good constitution and laws etc and we all lived by that as people and institutions then you can imagine what kind of society can emerge from that?
I hope people here think about what I have been explaining here for a while. I am very much hopeful that reason will prevail therefore islam=peace will prevail.
The quran therefore tells us anyone who intervene for good will have good results and anyone who intervene for bad will get results for that. So if you interfere with things with bad intentions against humanity then you are not welcome but if you support good things for the good of mankind then you are welcome. Such actions will create a better world so people will benefit from that and the person will also rewarded for that in hereafter.
Allah taala ne is jahan ko asbaab par chalaana pasand farmaaya yani cause and effect par yaa illato malool par mabni nizaam banaaya. is liye har shai doosri ki wajah se hai aur kaam karti hai. yun Allah ne qanoon ke mutaabiq har shai ko apne apne kaamun main lagaaya huwa hai. isse se saaf zahir hai cheezen hi cheezun ka waseelah hen magar usi had tak jahan tak woh khudayee nizaam ka hissa hen kisi khudayee maqsad ko poora karne ke liye jo aqalan aur naqlan drust bhi maloom pade.
khudaa ne nabiyun ke zariye apna paighaam bheja yani nabiyun ko waseelah banaaya magar aik maqsad ke liye. logoon ko bashwaana un ka kaam nahin tha haan un kaam yeh tha keh logoon ko saaf saaf bataa den khudaa ne un ko kia kaha hai aage log jaane un ke kaam. agar log khudayee paigham ko pasand karen to ikathe hun aur us nizaam ke nifaaz ke liye miljul kar kaam karen nahin to un ki apni marzi. kisi par zor zabardasti nahin hai.
shfaat khudaa ke porgram se koi alag aqeede ki cheez nahin hai. kyunkeh islam bebunyaad aqeedun ka naam nahin hai balkeh quran main diye ge program ka naam hai.
khudaa ne nabiyun ke zariye apna paighaam bheja yani nabiyun ko waseelah banaaya magar aik maqsad ke liye. logoon ko bashwaana un ka kaam nahin tha haan un kaam yeh tha keh logoon ko saaf saaf bataa den khudaa ne un ko kia kaha hai aage log jaane un ke kaam. agar log khudayee paigham ko pasand karen to ikathe hun aur us nizaam ke nifaaz ke liye miljul kar kaam karen nahin to un ki apni marzi. kisi par zor zabardasti nahin hai.
shfaat khudaa ke porgram se koi alag aqeede ki cheez nahin hai. kyunkeh islam bebunyaad aqeedun ka naam nahin hai balkeh quran main diye ge program ka naam hai.
Even if you add a hundred verses before and after the verses which were quoted by me the end result will be the same. There is no God except Allah; there is no intercession except whom He wills.
The rules of the game will remain the same for both the periods whether before the judgement day or on the judgement day. No Allah is not separate for the days before the judgement day and the judgement day. Islam remains the same; the Creator will be the same; his rules will remain the same.
Kindly drink some cold water. Calm down.
LovelyVirus
Senator (1k+ posts)
:lol: Nothing better expected from you. Now go invoke your intercessor and ask him for help to counter the arguments. ;)
crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am disappointed to say the least, I am Muslim and know there is no other God but Allah SWT. You don't need to remind me that. The preceding verses are important in every case if the subject matters continues to the next verse. Quoting what one's like is a bad practice, every Muslim should avoid such bad practices, to misquote or misrepresent the Holy Quran.
The concept of "Shafa't" in the Holy Quran is only mentioned in the context of "the Day of the Judgement", that also for the Messengers of Allah SWT and only "Symbolically". But never in the context of the life on this earth. Why you didn't present the verses in support of what you are trying to wrongly imply from the Holy Quran?
There is no verse in the Holy Quran which indicates that you should pray for your needs through another human rather than direct from your and my Creator, period.
Is this how you preach and convince people like me ?
Are you done with it ?
crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I was always done, it is your life, your choices. It would be you who would be facing your Maker on the Day of the Judgement.
In the meanwhile keep worshiping the creations rather than the Creator, who am I to stop you?
In the meanwhile please always remember, the Verses of the Quran you mentioned, even if you want to follow your own distorted meanings always mentioned, except those who have been given the permission to intercede.
And who would give the Permission? Only Allah SWT.
And who you follow? Humans. Those who claim to be near or in many cases to have "direct line " to Allah SWT.
Do you have any proofs of their claims?
Did you converse with Allah SWT to know the identity of those who would be given the permission to intercede.
That's why intercession is not permissible under any circumstances in this world. It is not mentioned int the Quran in that context, because to mention such would leave the humanity vulnerable to any one's claims.
Such scenario is beyond the Wisdom of Allah SWT. Also remember the Holy Quran is free of any conflicts or errors, its main theme is "Uniqueness" and "Oneness" of Allah SWT as the Creator and Controller of the Universe, He doesn't share His Powers with anyone, not even with the Prophets.
I do commend you for trying your best to curtail the powers of Allah as per the finite imagination of your mind except that His powers are infinite and beyond your imagination.
crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
:naooz: I have done nothing like this. You should be careful to level such baseless accusation on any Muslims. You conveniently forgot to tell me, how would you know someone is granted the leave for intercession by Allah SWT?
I am questioning your knowledge of the persons who claimed to have direct line to Allah SWT. How you can recognise they are genuine or not? What would happen to you, if they are not genuine? You would waste your life worshiping them than Worshiping your Creator?
Tell me what those polytheists and non-believers do? They ask for their needs from other than Allah SWT, don't they? From statutes to animals, you name it. What is the difference if you ask fulfillment of your needs from a statute or from a grave? Both are built of stones and mud.
As for those who you turn for help, on the day of Judgement they could easily turn around and proclaim in the presence of their Creator, they could not have claimed what is not their right to claim. I quoted you the verse of the Holy Quran about Hadrat Isa :Allaih:
but you didn't pay attention. Here it is again;
5:116 AND LO! God said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" [Jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception.
Brother, you should think, if Prophets would be answerable to Allah SWT for the excesses attributed to them by men, what are these insignificant being compared to Prophets of Allah SWT? They would disown you in a giffy. In the end you would be carrying the burden of your misplaced practices and thinking, no one else.
I leave you with the following verse of the Holy Quran, read it and think, how would you know that who would be allow to intercede on your behalf on the Day of the Judgement? Because other than that, there is no intercession by anyone in the Holy Quran.
72:26 He [alone] knows that which is beyond the reach of a created beings perception and to none does He disclose aught of the mysteries of His Own unfathomable knowledge,
May Allah SWT opens your eyes and everyone else's who had been misguided, Amen.
crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
One translation of the verse you quoted is;
5:35 O YOU who have attained to faith! Remain conscious of God, and seek to come closer unto Him, and strive hard in His cause, so that you might attain to a happy state.
Brother Modern Fakir, you like earlier friend have failed to mention the context of the verse.
5:33 It is but a just recompense for those who make war on God and His apostle, and endeavour to spread corruption on earth, that they are being slain in great' numbers, or crucified in great numbers, or have, in l' result of their perverseness, their hands and feet cut off in great numbers, or are being [entirely] banished from [the face of] the earth: such is their ignominy in this world . But in the life to come [yet more] awesome suffering awaits them-
5:34 save for such [of them] as repent ere you [O believers] become more powerful than they: for you must know that God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
Sadly, the context is war waged by the unbelievers on God and His apostle, and topic of these verses is "Kabba", not as you are trying to present. Finding the "Waseela" of worthless humans.
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crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Staying on the topic of 5:35, here is a lecture of Dr Israr, supporting the translation of the verse I provided earlier. The misunderstanding created among Pakistani Muslims by some is due to their ignorance of Arabic language. They try to impose Urdu meanings to the Arabic text of the Holy Quran.
Dr Israr also explains that those you try to call for your help are unaware of your calls. They don't have powers to heed your calls. On the day of the Judgement they would deny any knowledge of you. Please think.
Dr Israr also explains that those you try to call for your help are unaware of your calls. They don't have powers to heed your calls. On the day of the Judgement they would deny any knowledge of you. Please think.
