Signs Of The Times? For the Army fanboys who are running for cover after the double bogey of Ray Dav
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Lol.
That is a new retort to my posts. Havent heard this one before.
Incidently the 'great' Nawab of Kalabagh Amir Muhammad Khan got the jagir re-granted to his family in 1849 I think, after they vowed total obedience to the British Raj. Today they are 'respected' as the great leaders of the Awan tribe. Would you question the authenticity of their lineage too?
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wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
Most of the people here agree with the accusation. With the failure of Policy and the justification.
Great army hotie agar toh shayad .. itna sab nahin hota.
Other than whinning and complaining we dont get very far. So what answers do u expect from ppl that already know where Pakistan stands ????
Tax payers in Pakistan ??? hmmm... err.. where again ??
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
If people agreed then they would ATLEAST open their minds to discussion about where our priorities lie or should lie.
People are NOT whining and complaining. When you are billed by someone for a service they are supposed to render but dont render you have the RIGHT to take them on and question them.
I pay my taxes so I WILL ask questions. Those who dont can shut up if they like.
wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
In Pakistan, for a lay person those that dont make enough to pay taxes. Have their priorities straight. Those who LIVE in Pakistan, and earn/make a living here have it ready on a platter.
Do u KNOW how expensive Pakistan itself has become for the AWAM ??? U want the AWAM that is complaining about Loadshedding, price hikes in commodities, unhygenic water..... etc etc. Obviously the cream of the society wont agree with this picture, but its reality. Heck maybe the UPPER middle class also wont agree... but even then thats the real picture....
Take up the army issue also ?? Have u watched the local news of different areas in Pakistan ?? dint u read on all the "Etijaj-jss" happening ? yet u want this ordinary "awam" to whine and complain about something that comes in secondary when compared to "basic necessities to live - food, water, etc etc"
Maybe when we, the Lay-Awam get our basic necessities, then we might complain and whine about something.. that jumps the priority line.
Ur paying taxes in PAKISTAN ???? In Pakistan ??? The sub-continent's Pakistan ??? U must be the one of the only 10 paying that... lol
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
When you feed a giant-ass army that does nothing but break constitution and keep us in constant state of war to feed its big belly where are you going to get the resources to feed the poor awam?
We have money to keep two operational fronts open and engaged all the time so where is this money coming from? just the 10 people paying taxes?
I pay my taxes like every salaried person. It gets deducted at the source. We also pay wealth tax and property tax. The car we have is registered and its tokens are all paid. that is also tax. Im pretty sure there are more than 10 people who pay some sort of tax in Pakistan.
Those who dont pay direct tax end up paying when they purchase commodities the most basic one being fuel. Nearly 65% of the money you pay at the pump is a form of tax which goes to the government. The electricity you use is taxed. So there is no escaping taxes. you might not be paying the full amount but you DO pay the government inadvertently.
And a big chunk of all these voluntary or forced taxes end up feeding the army. If that burden is reduced the poor awam can start getting some basic necessities instead of the Army guys getting a new DHA or Askari Scheme up and running every two months.
wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
Only the generals or the selected few are paid enough to feed that insatiable appetite. Not every fauji or jawan.
haan.. obviously U guys paying it, or the teeny weeny bit that we pay through commodities might add to the pool.
and every salaried person, has a tax consultant who knows how to get the paid tax back. Dont tell me you've not hired one. Since ur a law abiding citizen you MUST be following the book and would want to be legally correct while stating and quoting everything.
And a big chunk of all these voluntary or forced taxes end up feeding the army. If that burden is reduced the poor awam can start getting some basic necessities instead of the Army guys getting a new DHA or Askari Scheme up and running every two months.[/QUOTE]
DHA and Askari walay pay to live there, The amount charged for a yearly fees as well as charges costs a leg and an arm, and not only the army lot lives there.
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Everyone has a share of the pie. Or are you saying that the Army does NOT get a major chunk of our tax money and it is all lies?
Please suggest a good lawyer who does such things especially for public sector employees.
I know a lot of people in the industry I work in because of the nature of my job and I can assure you NOT ONE has hired a lawyer to get back any tax money. A salaried person earning between 30 and 50 thousand rupees will end up paying the lawyers fee from his own pocket if he tries to get any back taxes thru legal means i assure you of that.
Come to Rwp/Isb and i will show you the standard of Askaris and DHAs and the prime land they sit on and the metaled roads they get constructed.
A major or colonel gets a house for around 40 lacs in one of the new Askaris and the next day they sell it for over a Crore rupees. This extra value added profit is because the tax payers subsidize the Army. The lands are subsidized. the services inside the Askaris are subsidized. I have lived in one when the rents were cheaper so I know full well how good life is there.
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
BTW in 2008 our Direct taxes amounted for 40% of the tax revenue which means you contributed to the tax stream whether you wanted to or not because the direct taxes are unavoidable and taken at source like in the form of taxes on utilities, bank transactions surcharges etc.
So if you dont want to question the government where your money went thats up to you.
So if you dont want to question the government where your money went thats up to you.
wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
tax consultants ... Im sure there should be some in the roll-a-desk at someones table around u
nahin.. u pay the consultant their fee. its their job to make sure u get a chunk back.. yes falling under the legal umbrella.
so ur army fan if u even rented out one of the places there ???? DHA and Askari arnt ONLY inhabited by the Khakies.
Maybe if u cut off that section of the pie that is "majors, generals... and the ranks" leaving those faujies .. that are unsung.
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wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
Agreed... I contributed to the ARMIES welfare, and their luxury homes, and amenities...... But my point is... when every other person has his plate full with "troubles" .....this does not in any way take precedence over survival...
No I've got a list of questions for the goverment, but Army does not top the list.. I've got other necessities that Gov should answer.
If u did have 30% of Pakistan's population in agreement.. and even convinced the another 20% of it... whats next ??
Night_Hawk
Siasat.pk - Blogger
wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
If you have woken the masses and made them realise the big bad wolf is the army........... and it has dawned to the "awam" what is it that u suggest we do ??
realization karwadi.. abh next step ????
Bret Hawk
Senator (1k+ posts)
Awan Sir you talked about the alleged failure of Army institution and its ancillary institutions most specifically its premier intelligence agency ISI a preposition which can be argued effectively in its favour of course. But despite of the emotional proclivities of some of the emotional members of this forum I on personal level respect and agree to the most of those issues and things which you have boldly expressed for the Pak Army but I rather have my own observation in all of this setup operation.
First and foremost the question of the incompetency and ineptness, though many other hardcore realities and recent past and present incidents can be cited to expose their alleged professionalism and commitment to their declared causes, of Pak Army does not seems to arise on this specific issue in a holistic manner.
There are two set of possible scenarios for someone to view this supposed action of American armed forces.
Scenario I: As in the perfect conformity of their past collaborative actions, this operation in Abottabad was once again conducted with mutual understanding and collusion between the Armies and intelligence agencies of Pakistan and US.
Scenario II: After the issue of the strained relationships of ISI and CIA in the recent concluded episode of “Raymond Davis” the Americans wanted to show the real worth of their Pakistani counterparts in the Army specifically that we are capable enough to rub the dust of humiliation on your faces by our own will at any given time so next time try to behave with us.
Only in Scenario II your contesting point of exposing the incompetency of Pak Army can seems to have its basis of viability but in Scenario I, I think we just have to admire the close nature of working relationship between these two organizations, Pak and US Army Institutions, which have been working in conformity and consonance in the last six decades in order to achieve their regional and global aims and objectives the nature and substance of which can be discussed later in an appropriate thread and juncture.
First and foremost the question of the incompetency and ineptness, though many other hardcore realities and recent past and present incidents can be cited to expose their alleged professionalism and commitment to their declared causes, of Pak Army does not seems to arise on this specific issue in a holistic manner.
There are two set of possible scenarios for someone to view this supposed action of American armed forces.
Scenario I: As in the perfect conformity of their past collaborative actions, this operation in Abottabad was once again conducted with mutual understanding and collusion between the Armies and intelligence agencies of Pakistan and US.
Scenario II: After the issue of the strained relationships of ISI and CIA in the recent concluded episode of “Raymond Davis” the Americans wanted to show the real worth of their Pakistani counterparts in the Army specifically that we are capable enough to rub the dust of humiliation on your faces by our own will at any given time so next time try to behave with us.
Only in Scenario II your contesting point of exposing the incompetency of Pak Army can seems to have its basis of viability but in Scenario I, I think we just have to admire the close nature of working relationship between these two organizations, Pak and US Army Institutions, which have been working in conformity and consonance in the last six decades in order to achieve their regional and global aims and objectives the nature and substance of which can be discussed later in an appropriate thread and juncture.
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awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Idont think you have worked in Pakistan yet thats why you are saying this stuff about back taxes. I have worked for 6 years in a govt. organization and i can assure you not one person has a tax consultant in the whole organization. Kaho tau payslips post ker deta hon manager level tak kay logon ke. :D
So I being a 'bloody civilian' cant stay in a little 'poshness' subsidized by my tax money?
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
And my point is we are at this critical juncture BECAUSE of the big budgets we have been spending on the 'welfare' of the Army. You can look at it any other way but when you spend nearly 50% of your budget on one institution, it WILL reflect on your overall financial condition no matter how well off you are as a nation.
My list has Army on the top and I have stated the reason already. 50% of the budget consumption.
Start changing long term policies of 'strategic depth' and stop harboring and training militants within your national boundaries. Bring security back to everyday life so that investments can come in. Stop the generals from subverting the constitution every few years in the name of 'national security'.
awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Im open to all discussion.
BTW I was just humiliated outside MH by the Great Army as I tried to cross the road and go to the other side after getting off a taxi. It seems some high ranking general was around so the road was closed off and I was asked to walk all around the MH to get to where I was going. Walking close to the wall of MH was not allowed. I asked the MP to let me cross a few steps so I could take the shorter road so he checked my NIC. It was expired by a month as I was abroad and just came back. He asked the Major sb. in the Land Cruiser who waved him off and refused as if I was a begger asking for money. F*ck you Major sb. Tujh say ziada perha likha hon ku**tay kay bachay. Bandook kay zor per sari qoum ko agay lagaya hua hay kan*jeron nay.
I am a fu*king citizen of this country and I learnt what it must feel like in Palestine at the Israeli check posts.
This is what it has come down to after paying 50% of our budget to them. They have lost control of everything and now the poor people on the roads cant walk in peace because anyone can be a suspected terrorist out to kill a great general or something.
Is kam kay leaye in *******n ko pasiay detay hein keh yeh hamain apnay kareeb say guzarnay bhe nahi detay ab.
This is not made up. Im staying close to MH and they are still out there. I tried to take out my cell to make a video for you guys but I was instantly told to put it away by a bahadur jawan.
Thank you Army for keeping us safe.
UPDATE: It was his royal Highness General Kayani himself on the round. 4 hours the road was kept closed. Just going out for dinner now.
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awan4ever
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
LATEST BUDGET UPDATE.
ISLAMABAD:
The government is set to announce a defence budget for the upcoming fiscal year that will be just over a quarter of its targeted tax revenues, though a careful analysis of the allocations suggests that the numbers understate the full costs of military spending.
The ‘stated’ defence budget for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2012 is likely to be Rs495 billion, an increase of Rs53 billion or 12 per cent over the previous year’s ‘stated’ budget, a rate of increase that is nominally below inflation. This, however, masks actual defence expenditures in several ways, including transferring military pensions to civilian expenses and counting ‘security’ operations separately.
Finance ministry sources say the government is likely to allocate Rs216 billion for security purposes under several non-descript headings, which include military operations and are paid for in part by Coalition Support Funds received from the United States, but also include grants from the federal government. The finance ministry typically shies away from discussing these grants in any detail.
In addition, military pension bill is likely to be included in the civilian side of the federal budget, continuing an accounting trick first employed by the Musharraf administration, designed to lower the military budget while continuing expenses at the same levels. For the outgoing fiscal year, this amount came to Rs60 billion and is likely to be higher for fiscal year 2012.
Total military expenses, therefore, are likely to exceed Rs767 billion, though not all of this amount will be paid by the Pakistani taxpayer.
Stated nominal military expenses have risen by 29 per cent over the past two fiscal years, almost exactly in line with inflation, despite several military operations against militants having been launched in the tribal districts and Swat during that time.
Some independent analysts, however, believe that the military allocations may need to be reviewed in light of the May 2 US raid on a compound in Abbottabad that killed al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.
“We cannot dole out money anymore without assessing the actual needs and without setting the benchmarks,” said defence analyst Ayesha Siddiqa, adding, “It is high time to issue a white paper on defence to assess what we have so far got and what we lost and what are the actual security needs.”
Even former military officials were willing to concede that more oversight may be needed.
“Effective oversight of the defence budget is a must. It is also good for the country and the democracy,” said retired Lt Gen Talat Masood. He said unless the government introduces real oversight of the defence budget it will remain dependent on the army.
Defence budgets have never been debated in Parliament and are always assumed to be a given during the presentation of the annual money bill. In the past, defence budgets were frequently limited to one line. Over the last few years, that number has since expanded to three lines but no further details are provided.
For fiscal year 2011, the full extent of military expenditure will only be made clear when the government announces its supplemental budget, to be released on the eve of the new budget for fiscal year 2012. Finance ministry sources say that the government has added an additional Rs47 billion to the original allocation of Rs442 billion, though the government has not yet acknowledged this figure publicly.
The government has targeted collecting Rs1,952 billion in taxes for the upcoming fiscal year. Of this amount, nearly Rs1,000 billion will be taken up by debt servicing and over Rs495 billion by defence, leaving around Rs457 billion, or about 23.4 per cent, of actual tax revenues to run the rest of the government and hand out billions of rupees in subsidies.
Published in The Express Tribune, May 10th, 2011.
ISLAMABAD:
The government is set to announce a defence budget for the upcoming fiscal year that will be just over a quarter of its targeted tax revenues, though a careful analysis of the allocations suggests that the numbers understate the full costs of military spending.
The ‘stated’ defence budget for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2012 is likely to be Rs495 billion, an increase of Rs53 billion or 12 per cent over the previous year’s ‘stated’ budget, a rate of increase that is nominally below inflation. This, however, masks actual defence expenditures in several ways, including transferring military pensions to civilian expenses and counting ‘security’ operations separately.
Finance ministry sources say the government is likely to allocate Rs216 billion for security purposes under several non-descript headings, which include military operations and are paid for in part by Coalition Support Funds received from the United States, but also include grants from the federal government. The finance ministry typically shies away from discussing these grants in any detail.
In addition, military pension bill is likely to be included in the civilian side of the federal budget, continuing an accounting trick first employed by the Musharraf administration, designed to lower the military budget while continuing expenses at the same levels. For the outgoing fiscal year, this amount came to Rs60 billion and is likely to be higher for fiscal year 2012.
Total military expenses, therefore, are likely to exceed Rs767 billion, though not all of this amount will be paid by the Pakistani taxpayer.
Stated nominal military expenses have risen by 29 per cent over the past two fiscal years, almost exactly in line with inflation, despite several military operations against militants having been launched in the tribal districts and Swat during that time.
Some independent analysts, however, believe that the military allocations may need to be reviewed in light of the May 2 US raid on a compound in Abbottabad that killed al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.
“We cannot dole out money anymore without assessing the actual needs and without setting the benchmarks,” said defence analyst Ayesha Siddiqa, adding, “It is high time to issue a white paper on defence to assess what we have so far got and what we lost and what are the actual security needs.”
Even former military officials were willing to concede that more oversight may be needed.
“Effective oversight of the defence budget is a must. It is also good for the country and the democracy,” said retired Lt Gen Talat Masood. He said unless the government introduces real oversight of the defence budget it will remain dependent on the army.
Defence budgets have never been debated in Parliament and are always assumed to be a given during the presentation of the annual money bill. In the past, defence budgets were frequently limited to one line. Over the last few years, that number has since expanded to three lines but no further details are provided.
For fiscal year 2011, the full extent of military expenditure will only be made clear when the government announces its supplemental budget, to be released on the eve of the new budget for fiscal year 2012. Finance ministry sources say that the government has added an additional Rs47 billion to the original allocation of Rs442 billion, though the government has not yet acknowledged this figure publicly.
The government has targeted collecting Rs1,952 billion in taxes for the upcoming fiscal year. Of this amount, nearly Rs1,000 billion will be taken up by debt servicing and over Rs495 billion by defence, leaving around Rs457 billion, or about 23.4 per cent, of actual tax revenues to run the rest of the government and hand out billions of rupees in subsidies.
Published in The Express Tribune, May 10th, 2011.
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wanderer
Siasat.pk - Blogger
Hmm if one pays tax abroad, is
and u expect this of the awam ????? lol. wahhh.. bohat achey...when their stomachs are full and minds are not distracted by issues of day to day survival..
Im sure they will get on with ur.. advice. Until then... the awam will happily suffer
