انڈیا اور پاکستان میں جہالت کی فصل کاٹنے کا وقت ا پونھچا

[Mughal1]

It is a religious law based on teachings of Muhammad in Quran, Sunnah, Qiyas and Ijma. The sum of which makes this law inconsistent with Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Dear vitamic c, you keep making absurd claims about the quran and deen of islam. Can you please explain for me the right way that works for understanding deen of islam from the quran? If you can then I can accept your claims if they prove valid otherwise I cannot and due to that you cannot be allowed to get away with your foolish claims about deen of islam or the quran.

My point is if you yourself have no idea how to understand the quran properly then how can you be right in claiming all sorts of nonsense about the quran or deen of islam? Since you claim all sorts of nonsense about the quran and deen of islam therefore it is your responsibility to explain how you arrived at these conclusions about the quran and deen of islam.

I advised you before as well to keep what people say about the quran or deen of islam separate from what deen of islam actually is or what the actual message of the quran is. I say that because there is a clear way that works for making proper sense of the quranic text in its own proper context about which you and almost all other people muslims and nonmuslims alike are not aware at all. If you think you are aware please share and let me examine your formula for proper understanding of the quran and deen of islam. If you are unable to respond to my request as you should kindly refrain from making stupid claims about the quran and deen of islam.

Just like you all people have their own definitions of all terms people have ever coined about which all disagree because these terms are not based upon solid rules. People have been modifying and refining their definitions always and they continue doing so because they did not work otherwise why should they be modified? If I asked you to define word religion you will see you cannot likewise you cannot define word secularism. All you can do is define a word in sense you want to use it for your purposes. That is all. Commonly acceptable definition of any term will have to be based upon solid rules about which none can disagree. Look into dictionaries people have been writing and how they have been redefining words throughout times and places, why?

Any explanation is just explanation but the valid explanation is only that which works and explains the whole thing wherein parts fit in neatly. Any explanation is the best possible explanation that cannot be surpassed. The quran is the best possible explanation of all that exists because it explains the whole thing in best possible way. Any explanation you or all other people like you offer are a tiny part of the whole so they leave a lot to desire. This is why you cannot argue your case successfully against the quran or deen of islam. The quran is such a book that explains for mankind all main points which people ought to know to live in this world successfully.

Just because people are ignorant about things just like yourself does not mean the quran or deen of islam is invalid and useless. You know very little or absolutely nothing at all about the quran and that can be proven right here if you wish. If I asked you to tell me what is surah al qadr about you will tell me this is what mullas say about it. You have never studied the quran yourself at all. All you have done is read some translations and interpretations of the quran by mullas. Had mullas actual knowledge of the quran muslim ummah will not have been in the state and situation that it is in. Mullas do not have any basis for their harmful and destructive beliefs and practices just like you don't have any basis for formation of a proper human community. If you have please share so we all could see result of your life time research and exploration. You were born knowing nothing at all and that is the way you are going to end your life unless you start studying the quran properly. So it will be better for you to reconsider your situation before it is too late.

Anyone can come and talk nonsense about the quran and deen of islam but it is impossible for anyone to put forward a purposeful complete plan for humanity for living in this world properly. If you or anyone else has it let us have it or don't talk nonsense about the quran and deen of islam till you it. By the way, as the quran says, you or anyone else can never come up with one ever. Deen of islam will become established throughout the world despite the opposition you see for the time being because this is due to ignorance of people about the quran and deen of islam. This ignorance is not going to lost for ever rather education is catching up. The quran needs highly intelligent people to understand it and explain it to others. People have been making progress by creating blocks for building islamic building or kingdom and once they reach a particular point whereat they have all they will need then kingdom based upon guidance of Allah will become a reality. You have no idea what I am talking about, it is because you have not yet reached my thinking level. Who knows, may be you will its only matter of time.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

If you are talking about Islamic sources then the no.1 source is Prophet Muhammad, who narrated the quran and the hadith. So if I want to know what it means, my first source will be Muhammad and how he interpreted the Quran. This I can see in prophets biography to see the context in which the verse was revealed and see if there are any hadiths on it. Then after that its his companions and other Arab scholars from that time.

Indian scholars from 19th century subcontinent who do not even understand contemporary Arab are not even going to get a second look from me so spare me.

Now this is how Islam has been followed since over 1,000 years... But today we have found many mistakes in Quran. From sun revolving around the Earth, to the Earth being flat. Which is why modern scholars are trying to come up with their owns ways to interpret Islamic sources to cover up for those mistakes.

Today every other Muslim from the Subcontinent has his own way of interpreting Islamic sources. Some believe in Hadith, some don't, some believe in a few but not in others. I don't care what people believe in today, I research on what they believed during time of Muhammad.

If you want to update your religion to make it look right by todays standards, then it means that the original Islam was not for all times. And you can give this privilege to other religions as well to change their meanings to cover up their errors as well.

Dear vitamic c, you keep making absurd claims about the quran and deen of islam. Can you please explain for me the right way that works for understanding deen of islam from the quran? If you can then I can accept your claims if they prove valid otherwise I cannot and due to that you cannot be allowed to get away with your foolish claims about deen of islam or the quran.

My point is if you yourself have no idea how to understand the quran properly then how can you be right in claiming all sorts of nonsense about the quran or deen of islam? Since you claim all sorts of nonsense about the quran and deen of islam therefore it is your responsibility to explain how you arrived at these conclusions about the quran and deen of islam.

I advised you before as well to keep what people say about the quran or deen of islam separate from what deen of islam actually is or what the actual message of the quran is. I say that because there is a clear way that works for making proper sense of the quranic text in its own proper context about which you and almost all other people muslims and nonmuslims alike are not aware at all. If you think you are aware please share and let me examine your formula for proper understanding of the quran and deen of islam. If you are unable to respond to my request as you should kindly refrain from making stupid claims about the quran and deen of islam.

Just like you all people have their own definitions of all terms people have ever coined about which all disagree because these terms are not based upon solid rules. People have been modifying and refining their definitions always and they continue doing so because they did not work otherwise why should they be modified? If I asked you to define word religion you will see you cannot likewise you cannot define word secularism. All you can do is define a word in sense you want to use it for your purposes. That is all. Commonly acceptable definition of any term will have to be based upon solid rules about which none can disagree. Look into dictionaries people have been writing and how they have been redefining words throughout times and places, why?

Any explanation is just explanation but the valid explanation is only that which works and explains the whole thing wherein parts fit in neatly. Any explanation is the best possible explanation that cannot be surpassed. The quran is the best possible explanation of all that exists because it explains the whole thing in best possible way. Any explanation you or all other people like you offer are a tiny part of the whole so they leave a lot to desire. This is why you cannot argue your case successfully against the quran or deen of islam. The quran is such a book that explains for mankind all main points which people ought to know to live in this world successfully.

Just because people are ignorant about things just like yourself does not mean the quran or deen of islam is invalid and useless. You know very little or absolutely nothing at all about the quran and that can be proven right here if you wish. If I asked you to tell me what is surah al qadr about you will tell me this is what mullas say about it. You have never studied the quran yourself at all. All you have done is read some translations and interpretations of the quran by mullas. Had mullas actual knowledge of the quran muslim ummah will not have been in the state and situation that it is in. Mullas do not have any basis for their harmful and destructive beliefs and practices just like you don't have any basis for formation of a proper human community. If you have please share so we all could see result of your life time research and exploration. You were born knowing nothing at all and that is the way you are going to end your life unless you start studying the quran properly. So it will be better for you to reconsider your situation before it is too late.

Anyone can come and talk nonsense about the quran and deen of islam but it is impossible for anyone to put forward a purposeful complete plan for humanity for living in this world properly. If you or anyone else has it let us have it or don't talk nonsense about the quran and deen of islam till you it. By the way, as the quran says, you or anyone else can never come up with one ever. Deen of islam will become established throughout the world despite the opposition you see for the time being because this is due to ignorance of people about the quran and deen of islam. This ignorance is not going to lost for ever rather education is catching up. The quran needs highly intelligent people to understand it and explain it to others. People have been making progress by creating blocks for building islamic building or kingdom and once they reach a particular point whereat they have all they will need then kingdom based upon guidance of Allah will become a reality. You have no idea what I am talking about, it is because you have not yet reached my thinking level. Who knows, may be you will its only matter of time.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

If you are talking about Islamic sources then the no.1 source is Prophet Muhammad, who narrated the quran and the hadith. So if I want to know what it means, my first source will be Muhammad and how he interpreted the Quran. This I can see in prophets biography to see the context in which the verse was revealed and see if there are any hadiths on it. Then after that its his companions and other Arab scholars from that time.

Indian scholars from 19th century subcontinent who do not even understand contemporary Arab are not even going to get a second look from me so spare me.

Now this is how Islam has been followed since over 1,000 years... But today we have found many mistakes in Quran. From sun revolving around the Earth, to the Earth being flat. Which is why modern scholars are trying to come up with their owns ways to interpret Islamic sources to cover up for those mistakes.

Today every other Muslim from the Subcontinent has his own way of interpreting Islamic sources. Some believe in Hadith, some don't, some believe in a few but not in others. I don't care what people believe in today, I research on what they believed during time of Muhammad.

If you want to update your religion to make it look right by todays standards, then it means that the original Islam was not for all times. And you can give this privilege to other religions as well to change their meanings to cover up their errors as well.

Dear vitamin c, this is not the right way to interpret the quran. Why not? Because it does not work and it cannot work. Also practically it is not possible for various reasons. In deen of islam the quran alone is said to be word of God from cover to cover therefore it is a stand alone book. It is because you used wrong way of understanding the quran you ended up with wrong ideas about the message in the quran therefore you ended up confused about deen of islam just like many other people muslims and nonmuslims alike.

There are many rules which work together as a complete unit whereby one has to interpret the quranic message. I can give you two for example for the time being a)to avoid causing contradictions within the quranic text itself and b)to avoid causing conflicts between the quranic text and real world realities. This is why no translation or interpretation of the quran by anyone is valid that is in conflict with these like rules.

The quran is full of verses which seem to contradict each other, what do you think needs to be done to make them consistent with each other? That will give you another rule whereby the quran must be interpreted. I will wait for your reply before continuing to see if you are able to figure out the rule by yourself. You can also see I am not using any person or book to explain things other than sense of making proper sense of things.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

On the one side I have interpretations of Muhammad, his companions, and original Islamic scholars who were from that time, were fluent in contemporary Arabic and have laid the foundation for interpretation of Islamic sources. On the other hand I have you. Guess which one I am picking?

Dear vitamin c, this is not the right way to interpret the quran. Why not? Because it does not work and it cannot work. Also practically it is not possible for various reasons. In deen of islam the quran alone is said to be word of God from cover to cover therefore it is a stand alone book. It is because you used wrong way of understanding the quran you ended up with wrong ideas about the message in the quran therefore you ended up confused about deen of islam just like many other people muslims and nonmuslims alike.

There are many rules which work together as a complete unit whereby one has to interpret the quranic message. I can give you two for example for the time being a)to avoid causing contradictions within the quranic text itself and b)to avoid causing conflicts between the quranic text and real world realities. This is why no translation or interpretation of the quran by anyone is valid that is in conflict with these like rules.

The quran is full of verses which seem to contradict each other, what do you think needs to be done to make them consistent with each other? That will give you another rule whereby the quran must be interpreted. I will wait for your reply before continuing to see if you are able to figure out the rule by yourself. You can also see I am not using any person or book to explain things other than sense of making proper sense of things.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

On the one side I have interpretations of Muhammad, his companions, and original Islamic scholars who were from that time, were fluent in contemporary Arabic and have laid the foundation for interpretation of Islamic sources. On the other hand I have you. Guess which one I am picking?

Dear vitamin c, please tell me did I tell you something wrong? Of course not. I told you rules which are necessary to follow when interpreting the quran otherwise you cannot understand anything at all not just the quran and deen of islam.

Tell me, how will you judge any statement by anyone to see if it is true or false or right or wrong? Can you prove any statement contradictory which can be interpreted free of contradictions? Of course not. Otherwise anyone could twist words of anyone anyway one liked and get away with it. I did not think you will not have even this much basic ability to think things through. You have greatly disappointed me by your such senseless response.

How can you be sure the quran is word of God or whatever is attributed to the messenger of God as his saying or doing is in actual fact his word or deed? Anyone could attribute anything to anyone and people always did that. This is why there had to be and there is a way to distinguish between the truth and the falsehood or right and wrong. I have that criterion and you do not. You just proved it by your response. You just pick whatever you like and say anything you like about it because someone else has said it. How stupid to say the least?

Here is another rule for you to learn. To interpret the quran, it is of vital importance for a person to know the fact that each word can have many different meanings therefore one must have a rule whereby one could choose the right meanings for a word used in a place in a text to suit the context. One is not free to give a word just any meanings regardless of textual context. The question for you is, how will you find out the proper context of a text? I will wait for your response to continue.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I told you that I interpret the Quran based on interpretations of Muhammad, his companions and renowned Arab scholars from his time who were fluent in contemporary Arabic... These are standards set by the founders of this religion over 1000 years ago.

Why should I instead listen to rules made by you, a man from the 21st century from the Indian subcontinent?

Dear vitamin c, please tell me did I tell you something wrong? Of course not. I told you rules which are necessary to follow when interpreting the quran otherwise you cannot understand anything at all not just the quran and deen of islam.

Tell me, how will you judge any statement by anyone to see if it is true or false or right or wrong? Can you prove any statement contradictory which can be interpreted free of contradictions? Of course not. Otherwise anyone could twist words of anyone anyway one liked and get away with it. I did not think you will not have even this much basic ability to think things through. You have greatly disappointed me by your such senseless response.

How can you be sure the quran is word of God or whatever is attributed to the messenger of God as his saying or doing is in actual fact his word or deed? Anyone could attribute anything to anyone and people always did that. This is why there had to be and there is a way to distinguish between the truth and the falsehood or right and wrong. I have that criterion and you do not. You just proved it by your response. You just pick whatever you like and say anything you like about it because someone else has said it. How stupid to say the least?

Here is another rule for you to learn. To interpret the quran, it is of vital importance for a person to know the fact that each word can have many different meanings therefore one must have a rule whereby one could choose the right meanings for a word used in a place in a text to suit the context. One is not free to give a word just any meanings regardless of textual context. The question for you is, how will you find out the proper context of a text? I will wait for your response to continue.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

I told you that I interpret the Quran based on interpretations of Muhammad, his companions and renowned Arab scholars from his time who were fluent in contemporary Arabic... These are standards set by the founders of this religion over 1000 years ago.

Why should I instead listen to rules made by you, a man from the 21st century from the Indian subcontinent?

Dear vitamin c, you should listen to me because I am talking sense and I am here talking to you. Others who have passed away 1000 years ago we cannot know for certain things about them without some solid criterion. You did not hear them say or do anything by yourself. All we have is accounts by other people and those people could tell us truth as well as lies. Not only that but human errors cannot be ruled out by human beings be it only during transmissions. Even our very own senses can be fooled at times and especially by by tricksters. Therefore we must have a properly working criterion and your criterion does not and cannot work. This is why you must adopt the criterion which works. This is why if we can interpret something correctly ourselves we must not interpret it incorrectly on basis of someone else who was also a human being and was prone to human errors.

I do not reject any sources of information but they need to be tested or sifted out on basis of some solid criterion and put together in an orderly manner. For example, if you tell me something about someone or something, how can I be reasonably sure you are telling me the truth or you are just having fun with me by making fool of me? So I must adopt a criterion before I could accept or reject what you tell me. You know as well as I that even if something happened right before us 100 people, there will be one hundred people telling others about the same event in hundreds of different ways. Some may even lie or add in details that were not originally there and as time lapses things could take a new shape altogether which has little or no resemblance to the original happening. So all these points demand we go by rules rather than personalities.

By the way, even if we go by what you are saying, have you heard about the rule of tafseer of the quran by the quran itself? You may also have heard about a rule called tafseer of the quran by hadees, have you? I hope you are also aware of rules whereby muhaddisoon categorised or classified various categories of the hadees reports, are you? If you are then you should know they did not accept anything on its face value rather they accepted things based upon their setup criteria. So whenever any question arises as to authenticity of something then before accepting or rejecting something a criterion is worked out and applied. So I see no sense in what you are saying because there is no sense in there at all. It only shows you are seriously confused or rather completely baffled by all this. It will be good for you to take aboard what I am saying and reevaluate your position but that is entirely up to yourself.

Regards and all the best.