Miracles of the Qur'an

Citizen X

President (40k+ posts)
To clarify: I am not claim anything, I am rejecting the claim that Quran has divine origin. The person claiming Quran to be from outside our world is making the claim.

For that claim to be true we have to rule out the possibilities that:
1. The information in the Quran can be derived for early tafsirs (for example its not coming from a new tafsir which was written after science made the discovery)

2. That the information your are quoting was not available 1400 years ago.

3. That it was possible for Muhammad and his companions to get that information naturally from the stories and people they are influenced by

Now that we have that understanding I will let you pick one topic at a time and we can put it through those 3 criteria to see whether it has divine origin or not.
How can something be derived when it is not even in a person's frame of reference. If a 777 went back in time 2000 years ago and flew over a population. What do you think they will describe it as? A flying machine made by man or some giant shiny bird that flew very high and made a big roar?

2 - If you have some text that predates the Quran containing this information then bring it forward. 100s of years later Galileo came up with the reflected light theory. It was a wide held belief that the sun orbited the moon before that many thought the Earth was flat. Man hadn't climbed any real high mountains that needed oxygen. The best diver couldn't dive more that a couple of dozen mtrs for him to know there is no light deep in the sea not was it possible as submarines didn't exist. Medical science only recently discovered pain
receptors in the skin

3- Since this information didn't exist there was no way for Mohammad to get it from anyone. Nor was he a know poet that he could compose such elegant prose
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I have researched all the things you are posting and my answer will be in the response to others.

In summary there are few things we need to verify first:

1. Is the translation original or is it new translation created after science made those discoveries?

2. Was this information available at time of Muhammad?

3. Can we rule out every possibility that Muhammad and his companions could not have gotten that information from available sources?
1. Is the translation original or is it new translation created after science made those discoveries? what difference does it make? The point is that these were in the Quran.

2. Was this information available at time of Muhammad? If it is in the Quran, obviously it was available at the time of Mohammad PBUH

3. Can we rule out every possibility that Muhammad and his companions could not have gotten that information from available sources? What available sources?
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You mentioned reflected light, shape of earth, mountains etc. Just give me one topic at a time and we can verify it together.

How can something be derived when it is not even in a person's frame of reference. If a 777 went back in time 2000 years ago and flew over a population. What do you think they will describe it as? A flying machine made by man or some giant shiny bird that flew very high and made a big roar?

2 - If you have some text that predates the Quran containing this information then bring it forward. 100s of years later Galileo came up with the reflected light theory. It was a wide held belief that the sun orbited the moon before that many thought the Earth was flat. Man hadn't climbed any real high mountains that needed oxygen. The best diver couldn't dive more that a couple of dozen mtrs for him to know there is no light deep in the sea not was it possible as submarines didn't exist. Medical science only recently discovered pain
receptors in the skin

3- Since this information didn't exist there was no way for Mohammad to get it from anyone. Nor was he a know poet that he could compose such elegant prose
 

taban

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So you agree with me that there is nothing in the Quran that was not known before. The reason why I mentioned that is because the video falsely claim things and say nobody knows these things 1400 years ago when infact it was already known.
اگر میں تم سے متفق ہوتا تو ہم اس وقت یہ بات نہ کر رہے ہوتے میں کہہ رہا ہوں کہ قرآن پرانی کتابوں کی تصدیق کرتی ہے اور تم کہہ رہے ہو کہ قرآن میں کچھ بھی نہیں ہے پرانے واقعات ایک طرف رکھو تم یہ بتاو کہ بائبل یا انجیل میں کہاں بچے کی ابتداء جو مادر رحم میں ہوتی ہےا تنی تفصیل سے بیان ہوئی ہے یہ کسی کو نہیں پتہ تھا اور نہ ہی کوئی جان سکتا تھا یہ اللہ ہی نے اپنی کتاب میں بتایا ہے محمد صلعم نے نہیں تم عجیب منطقیں پیش کر رہے ہو اوہ بھائی چودہ سو سال سے تم جیسے لاکھوں لوگ آئے اور اس طرح کی باتیں کر رہے ہیں مگر سب نے منہ کی کھائی ہے کیونکہ مقابلے پہ خالق کائنات ہے جو خیرالماکرین ہے
 

Citizen X

President (40k+ posts)
You mentioned reflected light, shape of earth, mountains etc. Just give me one topic at a time and we can verify it together.
Highest mountain. Tallest peak in Europe in 5600 meters, you can easily survive at that altitude without supplementary oxygen People lived in the Alps up to 3000 mtrs high without any issue
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The embroyolgy in Quran is copied word for word from Galen who was a Greek biologist. Galen's work is based on writing on Embryology by Greek Physician named Hippocrates. This work was writen almost 1000 years before Quran and describes it in much more detail than Quran.

Although there were errors in Hippocrates work on Embryology, Quran copied everything from it including the errors.




اگر میں تم سے متفق ہوتا تو ہم اس وقت یہ بات نہ کر رہے ہوتے میں کہہ رہا ہوں کہ قرآن پرانی کتابوں کی تصدیق کرتی ہے اور تم کہہ رہے ہو کہ قرآن میں کچھ بھی نہیں ہے پرانے واقعات ایک طرف رکھو تم یہ بتاو کہ بائبل یا انجیل میں کہاں بچے کی ابتداء جو مادر رحم میں ہوتی ہےا تنی تفصیل سے بیان ہوئی ہے یہ کسی کو نہیں پتہ تھا اور نہ ہی کوئی جان سکتا تھا یہ اللہ ہی نے اپنی کتاب میں بتایا ہے محمد صلعم نے نہیں تم عجیب منطقیں پیش کر رہے ہو اوہ بھائی چودہ سو سال سے تم جیسے لاکھوں لوگ آئے اور اس طرح کی باتیں کر رہے ہیں مگر سب نے منہ کی کھائی ہے کیونکہ مقابلے پہ خالق کائنات ہے جو خیرالماکرین ہے
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
The embroyolgy in Quran is copied word for word from Galen who was a Greek biologist. Galen's work is based on writing on Embryology by Greek Physician named Hippocrates. This work was writen almost 1000 years before Quran and describes it in much more detail than Quran.

Although there were errors in Hippocrates work on Embryology, Quran copied everything from it including the errors.



What i have read so far, neither Galen nor Hyppocrate's findings/work on embryology, don't even come close to the details in the Quran.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Quran has just a few lines on it, Galens work is in many volumes. I dissected it on this forum many times. Galen's work was also being taught in schools in Basra at the time of Muhammad.

What i have read so far, neither Galen nor Hyppocrate's findings/work on embryology, don't even come close to the details in the Quran.
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Quran has just a few lines on it, Galens work is in many volumes. I dissected it on this forum many times. Galen's work was also being taught in schools in Basra at the time of Muhammad.
Still, the guy is quoting some history with not much detail on it.
Quran is not a scientific book. It gives you details where it is necessary. No other book can come close to the Quran.

 

taban

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The embroyolgy in Quran is copied word for word from Galen who was a Greek biologist. Galen's work is based on writing on Embryology by Greek Physician named Hippocrates. This work was writen almost 1000 years before Quran and describes it in much more detail than Quran.

Although there were errors in Hippocrates work on Embryology, Quran copied everything from it including the errors.



تو تم یہ کہہ رہے ہو کہ اللہ کے نبی صلعم نے اس زمانے میں موجود ہر کہانی نویس کو ہر سائنسدان کو ہر ماہر فلکیات کو ہر ماہر حیوانیات کو ہرگائناکالوجسٹ کو کنسلٹ کر کے قرآن تحریر کیا ہے تاکہ کوئی گوشہ خالی نہ رہ جائےاور چونکہ آپ صلعم نے چند سفر کئے تھے لہذا اس سے یہ ممکن ہوا ہے اچھا یہ بتاو کہ بچے میں جان کیسے آ جاتی ہے کیا ہپوکریٹ نے یہ بتایا کہ نہیں قرآن تو باقاعدہ بتاتا ہے
 
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Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Galen was not a history teacher, he was a physician and his teachings about biology and embreyology were being taught all over the mediteranian including Arabia. So we can mark embreyology off the list of miracles in Quran.

Still, the guy is quoting some history with not much detail on it.
Quran is not a scientific book. It gives you details where it is necessary. No other book can come close to the Quran.

 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
All I am saying is, if the author of book claims to be outside our world but the contents of the book are strictly from what is known already then I am justified in being skeptical about that claim.

تو تم یہ کہہ رہے ہو کہ اللہ کے نبی صلعم نے اس زمانے میں موجود ہر کہانی نویس کو ہر سائنسدان کو ہر ماہر فلکیات کو ہر ماہر حیوانیات کو ہرگائناکالوجسٹ کو کنسلٹ کر کے قرآن تحریر کیا ہے تاکہ کوئی گوشہ خالی نہ رہ جائےاور چونکہ آپ صلعم نے چند سفر کئے تھے لہذا اس سے یہ ممکن ہوا ہے اچھا یہ بتاو کہ بچے میں جان کیسے آ جاتی ہے کیا ہپوکریٹ نے یہ بتایا کہ نہیں قرآن تو باقاعدہ بتاتا ہے
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You can survive there but you can suffer from altitude sickness. Anything above 2400 meters is considered high altitude.

Humans have been around mountains since prehistoric times and shortness of breath is common symptom of altitude sickness.

Its not so much about chest contracting or expanding, but fewer oxygen molecules in the air which means your lungs have to work harder to get the same amount of oxygen.

So it seems like the author of Quran was aware of altitude sickness but not aware of the reason behind it ie lack of oxygen molecules. This is what you would expect from a book written by someone 1400 years ago.


Highest mountain. Tallest peak in Europe in 5600 meters, you can easily survive at that altitude without supplementary oxygen People lived in the Alps up to 3000 mtrs high without any issue
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Galen was not a history teacher, he was a physician and his teachings about biology and embreyology were being taught all over the mediteranian including Arabia. So we can mark embreyology off the list of miracles in Quran.
I was talking about Needham, not Galen.
Again, there are no details of his work just some historical conjecture whereas, the Quran has most of the details. Again, the Quran is not a scientific book but it has many scientific facts to explore and glorify God.
So you can take this uncorroborated theory of Needham off the table now.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I think you misunderstood me. I dont care about Needham I just linked it as a reference for Galen so you can search his work. Quranic Embreyology is based on Galen's work.

I was talking about Needham, not Galen.
Again, there are no details of his work just some historical conjecture whereas, the Quran has most of the details. Again, the Quran is not a scientific book but it has many scientific facts to explore and glorify God.
So you can take this uncorroborated theory of Needham off the table now.
 

Wake up Pak

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
I think you misunderstood me. I dont care about Needham I just linked it as a reference for Galen so you can search his work. Quranic Embreyology is based on Galen's work.
Wrong again.
His most important discovery was that arteries carry blood although he did not discover circulation. Galen was prolific, with hundreds of treatises to his name. He compiled all significant Greek and Roman medical thought to date, and added his own discoveries and theories.
Among Galen's major contributions to medicine was his work on the circulatory system. ... Although his anatomical experiments on animal models led him to a more complete understanding of the circulatory system, nervous system, respiratory system, and other structures, his work contained scientific errors.
I don't find any details of his work on human embryology. So you have no leg to stand on.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Read about Galens work on embryology and tell me what addition Quran makes on top of it?

Wrong again.
His most important discovery was that arteries carry blood although he did not discover circulation. Galen was prolific, with hundreds of treatises to his name. He compiled all significant Greek and Roman medical thought to date, and added his own discoveries and theories.
Among Galen's major contributions to medicine was his work on the circulatory system. ... Although his anatomical experiments on animal models led him to a more complete understanding of the circulatory system, nervous system, respiratory system, and other structures, his work contained scientific errors.
I don't find any details of his work on human embryology. So you have no leg to stand on.
 

Vitamin_C

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
As you can see, the Quranic version is identical to the Galenic version, only that Galen put more detail into his books than the Quran. Lets move on to the next miracle I think this one is done.

Quran

22:5

"We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then from a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed ... and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes."

23:13-14
"placed him as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a place of rest, firmly fixed; then

We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (alaqa); then out of that clot We made a (foetus) lump (mudghah),

then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh;

then We developed out of it another creature."

You can see that Quran divides into 4-5 steps.......


From Galenic Corpus (100s of years before Quran):
But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time.

The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen.

But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus.

The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches.

The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ‘a new creation’) ...


... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow


Source:
Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) (Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95, 101

He did not do any work on embryology.
So stop repeating same thing over and over again.
If you have the detail post it here.