It is not a question of possible or not possible, but whether you have something concrete to backup your claims...............or it is just a case of hawai firing and assumptions.......
'Omar's Law is UNKNOWN in Sweden': Swedish historian to Imran Khan
- Thread starter M Ali Khan
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- imran khan islam pti socialism sweden
InsafianPTI
Minister (2k+ posts)
I'm definitely not making same claims as IK(which I think was way too generalised), I'm only reflecting upon the similarities between both the sytems with my views.
About C:
You are right there is some of Edward Said's 'Orientalism' but one cannot simply claim that this is the only reason.
1. Why couldn't Muslims create institutes for rational sciences like they did with transmitted sciences (Quran and Hadith). Madrassahs were based on Waqf that meant the society in general fulfilled their financial needs through many means like charity. Rational sciences were championed by some Caliphs only (that is why the rise and fall of sciences matches the rise and fall of certain caliphs) you don't find the same fervor in Islamic societies regarding rational sciences. Secondly why couldn't Muslims put these ideas into practice? There was no hurdle in their way! In Pakistan millions of madaris today are being run on public charities - how many research institutes are being run on Public charities?
2. The scholars championing the cause of renaissance were by and large against religious dogma. Religion became a cause of ignorance for them, many considered religion to be a limiting factor. Religion was a box and one had to think outside the box.
3. Islam was considered to be worse off then Christianity. During the Crusades the intentional distortion of Islamic texts for securing public opinion in favor of crusades also played a huge role in demonizing Islam and Muslims to European population.
(Muslims did the same in Crusades. Incense is used in many catholic church rites, a rumor was started in Muslims that incense was excretion of Pope, this caused much disgust in masses as hygiene was /is central to Islamic rites)
4. At the time of renaissance there was no example of a Muslim country thriving in rational sciences. Golden period of Muslims ended at 12th century (1250), while renaissance really started after 15th century (Spain had fallen to Christians in 1492 and it was not the historic Cordaba but a shadow of its past glory as successive rebellions and fights had taken their toll).
Desi_Action
Banned
I am amazed at the self delusional propaganda of Pakistanis,...... What Umer law? which Umer law? And why Swedish will even bother to practice something like that? Bible is full with the teachings of Welfare and well being of Humanity.
So guys come out to face the real world,.....there is no such thing called Umer's law. At least Swedish don't know about that, and they would be last people to follow any such thing.
So guys come out to face the real world,.....there is no such thing called Umer's law. At least Swedish don't know about that, and they would be last people to follow any such thing.
InsafianPTI
Minister (2k+ posts)
huh! so are you suggesting that they just made all those laws in just few years without any historical and cultural impacts?? just based on the policy makers cognition and will to bring reforms?
Most modern educationists including my teachers from university believe that knowledge and ideas build up on cultural and solcail interactions (yes you need cognition for that of course).
So all I'm saying that if there are similarites in both then there is a good chance that it was transmitted socially or culturally.
whether it was written in history books (or even noted by historians) is another debate and a topic that needs some research.
I have no idea where the term 'omarian law' come from, I have heard it from you guys and IK for the first time, it was probably an over generalisation that people normally make.
So there are two things that I'm saying:
first that I don't think that all the social welfare system in scandinavian countries was only the result of those movements in that particular time because of those mentioned incidents in last two centuries or so, they must have used ideas from past from different cultures.
secondly I'm not saying sweden is using omarian law (I know nothing about it) contrary to what people say IK claimed.
Like I said before Islam in this context in westerian historians is almost non-existant, besides when it comes to evolution of ideas, western theorists don't shed anylight on the era when muslims were rulers,
I'm only talking about evolution of knowledge and learning (something I know a bit about) not the human history(don't know much about it), and ffor learning I only know western historical point of views, mostly from what I'm suggested to read.
atleast islam and muslims have never come in my view in that context in libraries or in universities.
but for me thats not enough to prove islam was irrelavent in that context.
I remember one of my muslim class fellow who was very religiously motivated (few years back) had done some research on islam's contribution in modern music (not asian but the african one which is mostly used in america and now in europe), I remember he did an extensive research on the topic (I guess he was too bored, didn't have anything else to do) he gave dozens of references for the claims he made. I was shocked as well as all the other european students and teachers sat there but I didn't see anyone challenging him on that.
you are asking for a reference for something that has not been looked by anyone, a side of history which is still in dark.
I'm sure research on this would be a good idea, but it needs time devotion and expertise, which I don't have right now.
I also disagree with some people who said in previous posts that it is possible that people at one place might have thought of same ideas as the people in another place without any interaction whatsoever! (that meeans you are sort relying on their cognition-constructivism), I'm not an expert of learning theories but do have a basic idea of them.
Because I am sort of a believer of social-culturalism, so I don't agree with this theory that two cultures emerged (one after another) with so many similarites without any interaction.
Most modern educationists including my teachers from university believe that knowledge and ideas build up on cultural and solcail interactions (yes you need cognition for that of course).
So all I'm saying that if there are similarites in both then there is a good chance that it was transmitted socially or culturally.
whether it was written in history books (or even noted by historians) is another debate and a topic that needs some research.
I have no idea where the term 'omarian law' come from, I have heard it from you guys and IK for the first time, it was probably an over generalisation that people normally make.
So there are two things that I'm saying:
first that I don't think that all the social welfare system in scandinavian countries was only the result of those movements in that particular time because of those mentioned incidents in last two centuries or so, they must have used ideas from past from different cultures.
secondly I'm not saying sweden is using omarian law (I know nothing about it) contrary to what people say IK claimed.
Like I said before Islam in this context in westerian historians is almost non-existant, besides when it comes to evolution of ideas, western theorists don't shed anylight on the era when muslims were rulers,
I'm only talking about evolution of knowledge and learning (something I know a bit about) not the human history(don't know much about it), and ffor learning I only know western historical point of views, mostly from what I'm suggested to read.
atleast islam and muslims have never come in my view in that context in libraries or in universities.
but for me thats not enough to prove islam was irrelavent in that context.
I remember one of my muslim class fellow who was very religiously motivated (few years back) had done some research on islam's contribution in modern music (not asian but the african one which is mostly used in america and now in europe), I remember he did an extensive research on the topic (I guess he was too bored, didn't have anything else to do) he gave dozens of references for the claims he made. I was shocked as well as all the other european students and teachers sat there but I didn't see anyone challenging him on that.
you are asking for a reference for something that has not been looked by anyone, a side of history which is still in dark.
I'm sure research on this would be a good idea, but it needs time devotion and expertise, which I don't have right now.
I also disagree with some people who said in previous posts that it is possible that people at one place might have thought of same ideas as the people in another place without any interaction whatsoever! (that meeans you are sort relying on their cognition-constructivism), I'm not an expert of learning theories but do have a basic idea of them.
Because I am sort of a believer of social-culturalism, so I don't agree with this theory that two cultures emerged (one after another) with so many similarites without any interaction.
mubashirrao
MPA (400+ posts)
Wesay afsos ki baat hai k yaahan aisay aisay la.aanti log hain k aik wo us bay.gherat aaadmi nawaz k peechay Hazrat Umer R.A ne jis kaam ka aghaaz kia uskay credit ko bhi ignore kar rahay hain. Imran ko ghalat keh lo lakin Yeh to maan lo jaahil or bewaqoof logo k Welfare state ki buniyaad hi Islam se shuru hui thi or Hazrat Umer R.A ne hi aaghaaz kia tha. yeh maan logay baat??? tau yeh bhi automatically understood hai k poori dunia nay unkay model ko follow kiiya qk start hi unho ne kia tha.... apnay dimaag ki batti jalao! aqal k andho! Logic kidhar hai aap logo k paas imran main keeray nikalnay k?
Sharam se doob k mar jaao zaalimo..... Jaana usi jaahil k saath qabar main.. bhulaa do apnay suhaaba karaam ko bhi uskay peechay.
Sharam se doob k mar jaao zaalimo..... Jaana usi jaahil k saath qabar main.. bhulaa do apnay suhaaba karaam ko bhi uskay peechay.
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InsafianPTI
Minister (2k+ posts)
the highllighted bit is a valid question!
How come we know the height of differences among muslim societies, sects division etc but don't have anything concrete about the tall claims that muslims make about the modern knowledge and science.
Now there could be saveral reasons for that, and one needs to do lots of research to answer these question.
you shouldn't comapre what pakistan is today with islam could have been centuries ago.
How come we know the height of differences among muslim societies, sects division etc but don't have anything concrete about the tall claims that muslims make about the modern knowledge and science.
Now there could be saveral reasons for that, and one needs to do lots of research to answer these question.
you shouldn't comapre what pakistan is today with islam could have been centuries ago.
Ok lets look at a another issue which Muslims claim they have championed. The issue of environmental conservation, I had to attend a research seminar so I did some research myself:
Facts:
1. Issue came at forefront due to western scientists/ NGO's.
2. Major research conducted or still being done is by Western countries.
3. Laws regarding pollution, forestation, conservation mainly come from western countries.
4. Practical solutions about preservation like national parks, done in Western countries.
Now Muslims claim that environmental preservation is an Islamic idea present in Quraan, some examples:
Nature as a Sign of Allah: “In the creation of the heavens and the earth and the difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to people, and the water which Godsends down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and the ordinance of the winds, are signs for people who have sense" (Quran 2 164)Wastage of Resources: “O children of Adam! ... eat and drink: but waste not by excess for God loveth not the wasters.” (Quran 7:31)
Balance in Nature I: “The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; And the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice); in order that ye may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance” (Quran 55:5-9)
Balance in Nature II: “And the earth We have spread out, set therein mountains firm and immovable and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. And We have provided therein means of sustenance for you and for those whose sustenance you are not responsible” (Quran 15: 19-20.)
Destruction of Environment, A Warning: "Corruption has appeared on land and sea as an outcome of what men's hands have wrought: and so He will let them taste the evil of some of their doings, so that they might return to the right path.” (Qur’an 30:41)
Disfigurement of Nature: When Satan was Cursed he Declared, “I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah.” (Qur’an, 4:119)
Some examples from Ahadith:
Sanctity of Earth: “The (whole) earth has been made good for me, a means of purification and a mosque (or place of prayer); so wherever a man may be when the time for prayer comes, let him pray wherever he is.” (Sahih Muslim)
Inspiration for a Greener Earth I: “No Muslim, who plants a shoot, except that whatever is eaten or stolen from it, or anyone obtains the least thing from it, is considered [like paying] almsgiving on his behalf until the Day of Judgment.” (Sahih Muslim)
Inspiration for a Greener Earth II: “If you have a sapling, if you have the time, be certain to plant it, even if Doomsday starts to break forth” (al-Munawi, Fayd al-Qadir, iii, 30.)
Inspiration for a Greener Earth III: “Whoever plants a tree, reward will be recorded for him so long as it produces fruit.” (Musnad, v, 415)
Based on these Ayas and Ahadiths many Muslims claim that environmental conservation is indeed an Islamic idea borrowed from Muslims. Now logical questions which arise:
1. Prove environmental issues from Tafasir!
2. Prove environmental issues from work of traditional Isalmic scholars.
3. Put forth any environmental conservation laws in Muslim countries BEFORE they were applied in western countries.
4. Population is considered to be the Biggest threat to environmental issues (IF population in developing countries develops the same consumption patterns as population of developed countries today). What is the Islamic law/ point of view in controlling population?
My opinion is that Muslims found the environmental side of these Ayas and Ahadiths only after gaining that knowledge from western sources. Even then there is no real understanding of environmental cause from western or scientific perspective thus no answers for questions like population. In global warming there is no proper answer to question whether Human actions can result in extinction of some life forms? Do humans enjoy such power that they can eliminate a life form completely! will it be possible in divine design? Thus without any answers or any proof of long traditions of environmental issues being discussed in Islamic societies the whole thing seems superficial. What about Human rights? In Golden period of Islamic civilization slavery was allowed! There was also a developed taste for exotic slave girls. To make the claim that Human Rights started from Islam one has to understand the definition of Human rights in Islam and definition of Human rights in modern western societies then compare.
I have heard that Hazrat Umar (RA) started the first proper police department in human history (some claim that first proper uniforms were also made in that time) Both these accounts are completely false. We get notions of policing organizations as back as ancient Egypt which is way older then even Jews. There is a great deal of things we can learn from Khulfa Rashideen we should not need these fables.
Facts:
1. Issue came at forefront due to western scientists/ NGO's.
2. Major research conducted or still being done is by Western countries.
3. Laws regarding pollution, forestation, conservation mainly come from western countries.
4. Practical solutions about preservation like national parks, done in Western countries.
Now Muslims claim that environmental preservation is an Islamic idea present in Quraan, some examples:
Nature as a Sign of Allah: “In the creation of the heavens and the earth and the difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to people, and the water which Godsends down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and the ordinance of the winds, are signs for people who have sense" (Quran 2 164)Wastage of Resources: “O children of Adam! ... eat and drink: but waste not by excess for God loveth not the wasters.” (Quran 7:31)
Balance in Nature I: “The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; And the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice); in order that ye may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance” (Quran 55:5-9)
Balance in Nature II: “And the earth We have spread out, set therein mountains firm and immovable and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. And We have provided therein means of sustenance for you and for those whose sustenance you are not responsible” (Quran 15: 19-20.)
Destruction of Environment, A Warning: "Corruption has appeared on land and sea as an outcome of what men's hands have wrought: and so He will let them taste the evil of some of their doings, so that they might return to the right path.” (Qur’an 30:41)
Disfigurement of Nature: When Satan was Cursed he Declared, “I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah.” (Qur’an, 4:119)
Some examples from Ahadith:
Sanctity of Earth: “The (whole) earth has been made good for me, a means of purification and a mosque (or place of prayer); so wherever a man may be when the time for prayer comes, let him pray wherever he is.” (Sahih Muslim)
Inspiration for a Greener Earth I: “No Muslim, who plants a shoot, except that whatever is eaten or stolen from it, or anyone obtains the least thing from it, is considered [like paying] almsgiving on his behalf until the Day of Judgment.” (Sahih Muslim)
Inspiration for a Greener Earth II: “If you have a sapling, if you have the time, be certain to plant it, even if Doomsday starts to break forth” (al-Munawi, Fayd al-Qadir, iii, 30.)
Inspiration for a Greener Earth III: “Whoever plants a tree, reward will be recorded for him so long as it produces fruit.” (Musnad, v, 415)
Based on these Ayas and Ahadiths many Muslims claim that environmental conservation is indeed an Islamic idea borrowed from Muslims. Now logical questions which arise:
1. Prove environmental issues from Tafasir!
2. Prove environmental issues from work of traditional Isalmic scholars.
3. Put forth any environmental conservation laws in Muslim countries BEFORE they were applied in western countries.
4. Population is considered to be the Biggest threat to environmental issues (IF population in developing countries develops the same consumption patterns as population of developed countries today). What is the Islamic law/ point of view in controlling population?
My opinion is that Muslims found the environmental side of these Ayas and Ahadiths only after gaining that knowledge from western sources. Even then there is no real understanding of environmental cause from western or scientific perspective thus no answers for questions like population. In global warming there is no proper answer to question whether Human actions can result in extinction of some life forms? Do humans enjoy such power that they can eliminate a life form completely! will it be possible in divine design? Thus without any answers or any proof of long traditions of environmental issues being discussed in Islamic societies the whole thing seems superficial. What about Human rights? In Golden period of Islamic civilization slavery was allowed! There was also a developed taste for exotic slave girls. To make the claim that Human Rights started from Islam one has to understand the definition of Human rights in Islam and definition of Human rights in modern western societies then compare.
I have heard that Hazrat Umar (RA) started the first proper police department in human history (some claim that first proper uniforms were also made in that time) Both these accounts are completely false. We get notions of policing organizations as back as ancient Egypt which is way older then even Jews. There is a great deal of things we can learn from Khulfa Rashideen we should not need these fables.
Early History of Welfare:
In the Roman Empire, the first emperor Augustus provided the 'congiaria' or corn dole for citizens who could not afford to buy food. Social welfare was enlarged by the Emperor Trajan.
In Jewish tradition, charity (represented by tzedakah) is a matter of religious obligation rather than benevolence. Contemporary charity is regarded as a continuation of the Biblical Maaser Ani, or poor-tithe, as well as Biblical practices, such as permitting the poor to glean the corners of a field and harvest during the Shmita (Sabbatical year). Voluntary charity, along with prayer and repentance, is believed to ameliorate the consequences of bad acts.
The Song dynasty (c.1000AD) government in China supported multiple forms of social Welfare programs, including the establishment of retirement homes, public clinics, and pauper's graveyards.
The medieval Roman Catholic Church operated a far-reaching and comprehensive Welfare system for the poor.
In the Roman Empire, the first emperor Augustus provided the 'congiaria' or corn dole for citizens who could not afford to buy food. Social welfare was enlarged by the Emperor Trajan.
In Jewish tradition, charity (represented by tzedakah) is a matter of religious obligation rather than benevolence. Contemporary charity is regarded as a continuation of the Biblical Maaser Ani, or poor-tithe, as well as Biblical practices, such as permitting the poor to glean the corners of a field and harvest during the Shmita (Sabbatical year). Voluntary charity, along with prayer and repentance, is believed to ameliorate the consequences of bad acts.
The medieval Roman Catholic Church operated a far-reaching and comprehensive Welfare system for the poor.
hulk9
Councller (250+ posts)
for background of all this crap is typical swedish anti islamic mentality and now this guy Farooq Sulehria will get Swedish nationality for sure .................good tactics
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It is not the debate or issue that "Welfare or social System in Sweden or Europe" is currently called "OMAR ' Law" or not, because it is obviously understandable that Scandinavians or Europeans will never give credit to Muslims by calling it Omar law but the real question/matter is that "Whether this social welfare system is based on or inspired by Omer LAw or Muslims early Glorious Age" the reply is "Yes" . The European(Sweden) welfare system especially Family allowance is inspired by Hazrat Omer's golden regime.Every body knows in this world that Police system, state's resposibility to own and care each and every citizen , Current European Family allowance (Child benefit,parental benefit for wife/mother , maternity allowance etc.) were undoubtedly introduced by Hazrat Omer (R.A) and every historian is well aware of it and refers to it. However, according to the changing circumstances , European have reshaped it but the idea/ concept is the same. It does not really matter what it is called nowadays they have developed it on the same foundations.
The above-mentioned interview was taken to only prove that Imran Khan is Wrong but Imran Khan does not mean that the name in legal term is Omer Law but he only means that this concept was inspired by Hazrat Omer(R.A). The above-mentioned historian is quite biased and prejudiced because I have studied in different European Universities(Leuven, Belgium, Utrecht, Netherlands, Vienna, Austria,Leipzig, Germany Stockholm , Sweden) and still studying and the professors )all PHD , they admit two things publicly and mention these two in their lectures talking about the Renaissance's period , Dark ages of Europe and European History : ONe HAzrat Omer' Regime in terms of reforms and social welfare system and secondly Muslim rule in Spain where the European secured knowledge and science transferred to Europe. Toledo Academy was established to translate the Arabic knowledge into European Languages .
One thing more I found absurd in the above-mentioned so called interview that "with the fact that Sweden didn't participate in the European wars of the 20th century, were the central preconditions for the Swedish welfare state. During that period there were almost no Muslims in the whole of Sweden and Scandinavia " how does this proves that Social welfare system was not inspired by Hazrat Omer' s regime and it does not matter that if Muslims are not somewhere then some concept cannot travel or transfer to a place .How European Historians were not aware of Muslim history while they are well-know in research and they leant knowledge from Muslims in Spain .
I am not here to be Islamic-Centric but reality is that the Social Welfare system is based and inspired by Hazrat Omer . One shining example is Family Allowance in Europe it is the same as Hazrat Omer)R.A) introduced and gave monthly allowance for Pregnant woman and newly -born baby .
However, credit goes to Europeans that they implemented this system and Muslims abandoned and they conducted further research and developed numerous systems and reshaped all concepts for the welfare of their citizens.
The above-mentioned interview was taken to only prove that Imran Khan is Wrong but Imran Khan does not mean that the name in legal term is Omer Law but he only means that this concept was inspired by Hazrat Omer(R.A). The above-mentioned historian is quite biased and prejudiced because I have studied in different European Universities(Leuven, Belgium, Utrecht, Netherlands, Vienna, Austria,Leipzig, Germany Stockholm , Sweden) and still studying and the professors )all PHD , they admit two things publicly and mention these two in their lectures talking about the Renaissance's period , Dark ages of Europe and European History : ONe HAzrat Omer' Regime in terms of reforms and social welfare system and secondly Muslim rule in Spain where the European secured knowledge and science transferred to Europe. Toledo Academy was established to translate the Arabic knowledge into European Languages .
One thing more I found absurd in the above-mentioned so called interview that "with the fact that Sweden didn't participate in the European wars of the 20th century, were the central preconditions for the Swedish welfare state. During that period there were almost no Muslims in the whole of Sweden and Scandinavia " how does this proves that Social welfare system was not inspired by Hazrat Omer' s regime and it does not matter that if Muslims are not somewhere then some concept cannot travel or transfer to a place .How European Historians were not aware of Muslim history while they are well-know in research and they leant knowledge from Muslims in Spain .
I am not here to be Islamic-Centric but reality is that the Social Welfare system is based and inspired by Hazrat Omer . One shining example is Family Allowance in Europe it is the same as Hazrat Omer)R.A) introduced and gave monthly allowance for Pregnant woman and newly -born baby .
However, credit goes to Europeans that they implemented this system and Muslims abandoned and they conducted further research and developed numerous systems and reshaped all concepts for the welfare of their citizens.
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M Ali Khan
Minister (2k+ posts)
yes because any differing opinion and debunking bogus statements is always a "conspiracy against Islam". Not that fond of thinking for yourself are you, little boy?
M Ali Khan
Minister (2k+ posts)
http://criticalppp.com/archives/82835
[h=2]Story behind Imran Khan’s “Omar’s Law” – by Maisam Ali[/h]
Make-believe is emerging reality of town that is home to urban middle class of Pakistan in general and that of Punjab in particular. The town is more of a la-la land thriving on aspiring dream of a utopia that would not be polluted with any form of immorality found on the face of earth. Hyper nationalism, self-righteous morality, monolithic religious identity, antipathy to diversity and chauvinism are constituents, making up whole edifice of the far-fetched dream, that are more prone to lead it to dystopia instead of a utopia. The first casualty, being the historical tradition, in pursuit of propagating the tall tales has been the truth itself concealed under fabrications and factual inaccuracies. Bells and whistles certainly sound more attractive than weary details. Who got the time for details, anyways!
Latest revelation is the astonishing claim of Messiah Imran Khan that the concept of Welfare State in Europe traces its roots to second caliph Omar.
Canvassing the Swedish social welfare system doesn’t bring forward the name of Omar, as khan claimed, let alone any resemblance with the caliphate. Then where did Khan take the idea from? The answer is yet another cogent evidence of his shallow perspective of history and cherry-picking habit.
What Khan is doing here is confusing the greater idea of welfare state with the concept of ‘ombudsman’ (a person who acts as a trusted intermediary between either the state (or elements of it) or an organization, and some internal or external constituency, while representing not only but mostly the broad scope of constituent interests). The word comes from Old Norse and essentially means ‘representative’. Ombudsman is not only an essential state organ in Sweden, where it is called Chancellor of Justice, but also in many other countries in the world.
In 1713 the absolute monarch of Sweden Charles XII had created the office of His Majesty’s Supreme Ombudsman. At that time King Charles XII was in Turkey and had been abroad for almost 13 years. In his absence his administration in Sweden had fallen into disarray. He therefore established the Supreme Ombudsman to be his pre-eminent representative in Sweden.
During his stay in Turkey the king observed ‘Diwan al Mazalim’ (a Board of Grievances). Its function was to examine complaints brought by the public against government officials. The institution was headed by a senior judge responsible for examining the grievances. ‘Diwan al Mazalim’ traces its roots to second caliph Omar’s ‘Mohtasib’. Its function was to be a guardian of public morals in many fields of life, especially in the towns and above all in the market place. He was the market supervisor, as well as the settler of disputes. He enjoyed complete independence and functioned within the framework of an institution called ‘Hisbah’.
As far as the Institution of Diwan al Mazalim of Turkey having influenced the establishment of the Provincial Ombudsman’s Institution in Sweden, Ibrahim-al-Wahab in his book “The Swedish Institution Of Ombudsman: An Instrument Of Human Rights” assumes:
“Of course one could not draw definite conclusion regarding the origin of any institution anywhere… but being aware of the handling of complaints from the public was an essential part of the Islamic system of justice. There are therefore good reasons for the assumption that the Islamic system has influenced the creating of the First Provincial Ombudsman in Sweden.”
Nonetheless, the current predecessor of ombudsman institutions, the Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman, is based on the concept of separation of powers as developed by Montesquieu, which has a western origin and roots in the Enlightenment. According to the 1809 Instrument of Government, power was to be divided between the King and the Riksdag (Parliament of Sweden). The King was to appoint the Chancellor of Justice (in other words he was the royal Ombudsman) and the Riksdag was to appoint its own Parliamentary Ombudsman.
Hence, it is not so difficult to conclude that the notion of “Omar’s Law” came from a hypothesis and that too about an institution that is just a part of broader Welfare State concept. Here, like his previous claptrap, Khan seems to have no idea what he is talking about. Once again, he seems to be totally clueless, to say the least, how would he transform a country into a welfare state, that has one of the lowest effective tax rates in the world, equal to about 9 percent of the value of country’s economy. Once again, rhetoric and nave understanding of things seems to be the predominant part of his politics which has nothing to do with ground realities.
[h=2]Story behind Imran Khan’s “Omar’s Law” – by Maisam Ali[/h]
Make-believe is emerging reality of town that is home to urban middle class of Pakistan in general and that of Punjab in particular. The town is more of a la-la land thriving on aspiring dream of a utopia that would not be polluted with any form of immorality found on the face of earth. Hyper nationalism, self-righteous morality, monolithic religious identity, antipathy to diversity and chauvinism are constituents, making up whole edifice of the far-fetched dream, that are more prone to lead it to dystopia instead of a utopia. The first casualty, being the historical tradition, in pursuit of propagating the tall tales has been the truth itself concealed under fabrications and factual inaccuracies. Bells and whistles certainly sound more attractive than weary details. Who got the time for details, anyways!
Latest revelation is the astonishing claim of Messiah Imran Khan that the concept of Welfare State in Europe traces its roots to second caliph Omar.
“The PTI chairman said that there was no concept of welfare states in Europe and that they had taken this concept from the Muslim world. “They formed all the Scandinavian states based on this concept. They call it Omar’s law in Sweden. We need to bring our culture back to our own land.”
The claim left many of students of history revisit their knowledge about not only political movements in Europe but also caliphate. Nonetheless, only a little effort is needed to debunk the foolish claim that not only is factually inaccurate but laughable to say the least.
Canvassing the Swedish social welfare system doesn’t bring forward the name of Omar, as khan claimed, let alone any resemblance with the caliphate. Then where did Khan take the idea from? The answer is yet another cogent evidence of his shallow perspective of history and cherry-picking habit.
What Khan is doing here is confusing the greater idea of welfare state with the concept of ‘ombudsman’ (a person who acts as a trusted intermediary between either the state (or elements of it) or an organization, and some internal or external constituency, while representing not only but mostly the broad scope of constituent interests). The word comes from Old Norse and essentially means ‘representative’. Ombudsman is not only an essential state organ in Sweden, where it is called Chancellor of Justice, but also in many other countries in the world.
In 1713 the absolute monarch of Sweden Charles XII had created the office of His Majesty’s Supreme Ombudsman. At that time King Charles XII was in Turkey and had been abroad for almost 13 years. In his absence his administration in Sweden had fallen into disarray. He therefore established the Supreme Ombudsman to be his pre-eminent representative in Sweden.
During his stay in Turkey the king observed ‘Diwan al Mazalim’ (a Board of Grievances). Its function was to examine complaints brought by the public against government officials. The institution was headed by a senior judge responsible for examining the grievances. ‘Diwan al Mazalim’ traces its roots to second caliph Omar’s ‘Mohtasib’. Its function was to be a guardian of public morals in many fields of life, especially in the towns and above all in the market place. He was the market supervisor, as well as the settler of disputes. He enjoyed complete independence and functioned within the framework of an institution called ‘Hisbah’.
As far as the Institution of Diwan al Mazalim of Turkey having influenced the establishment of the Provincial Ombudsman’s Institution in Sweden, Ibrahim-al-Wahab in his book “The Swedish Institution Of Ombudsman: An Instrument Of Human Rights” assumes:
“Of course one could not draw definite conclusion regarding the origin of any institution anywhere… but being aware of the handling of complaints from the public was an essential part of the Islamic system of justice. There are therefore good reasons for the assumption that the Islamic system has influenced the creating of the First Provincial Ombudsman in Sweden.”
Nonetheless, the current predecessor of ombudsman institutions, the Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman, is based on the concept of separation of powers as developed by Montesquieu, which has a western origin and roots in the Enlightenment. According to the 1809 Instrument of Government, power was to be divided between the King and the Riksdag (Parliament of Sweden). The King was to appoint the Chancellor of Justice (in other words he was the royal Ombudsman) and the Riksdag was to appoint its own Parliamentary Ombudsman.
Hence, it is not so difficult to conclude that the notion of “Omar’s Law” came from a hypothesis and that too about an institution that is just a part of broader Welfare State concept. Here, like his previous claptrap, Khan seems to have no idea what he is talking about. Once again, he seems to be totally clueless, to say the least, how would he transform a country into a welfare state, that has one of the lowest effective tax rates in the world, equal to about 9 percent of the value of country’s economy. Once again, rhetoric and nave understanding of things seems to be the predominant part of his politics which has nothing to do with ground realities.
M Ali Khan
Minister (2k+ posts)
Thanks to generations of "dont ask too many questions" and "the senior is always right" and ZERO critical thinking skills, we have an educated middle class having a large number of degrees yet with tiny brains.
مسلمانوں کی حکومت حضرت عمر رضی اللہ عنہ کے دور میں تین براعظموں میں پھیلی ہوئی تھی۔ یورپ بھی اسی میں*آتا ہے۔
یورپ نے بہت سی چیزیں مسلمانوں سے مستعار لی ہیں جیسے عدل وانصاف کا نظام، سوشل ویلفئیر، بلدیاتی سسٹم۔
بلدیاتی سسٹم پہلے نبی اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ والہ وسلم کے دور میں متعارف ہوا جس میں حضرت عمر رضی اللہ تعالٰٰی عنہ نے کافی نئی اصلاحات کیں۔
http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/u...-Ahd Nabvi Ka Shahri Nizam_MDU_3_March_11.htm
حضرت علی رضی اللہ تعالٰی عنہ کا فرمان ہے کہ کفر کی ریاست تو قائم رہ سکتی ہے لیکن ناانصافی پر مبنی ریاست قائم نہیں رہ سکتی۔ اسی طرح ایک موقع پر حضرت محمد صلی اللہ علیہ والہ وسلم نے ایک قریش کی عورت کو سزا دیتے ہوئے کہا کہ اگر میری بیٹی فاطمہ بھی ہوتی تو اس کی بھی یہی سزا ہوتی۔
حضرت عمر رضی اللہ عنہ نے خود احتسابی کے لئے خود کو پیش کیا کہ میر المومنین حضرت عمر بن خطاب سے ایک عام نمازی نے مسجد نبوی میں نماز جمعہ کے خطبہ کے دوران خلیفہ وقت سے ان کی اپنے حصہ سے زیادہ کپڑا سے لمبی قمیض کے بارے میں سوال کیا، جس پر حضرت عمر نے یہ وضاحت پیش کی کہ ان کے بیٹے نے اپنی قمیض کا کپڑا ان کی خدمت میں پیش کر دیا تھا۔
یہ نظریہ بھی حضرت عمر رضی اللہ تعالٰی عنہ نے دیا کہ تاجر اچھا حکمران نہیں بن سکتا۔ حضرت ابوبکر صدیق رضی اللہ عنہ خلیفہ بنے تو دوسرے دن اپنے کاند ھوں پر کپڑے رکھ کر بازار کی طرف نکل کھڑے ہوئے حضرت عمر فاروق رضی اللہ عنہ نے انہیں دیکھا اور پوچھا کپڑے کاندھے پر رکھے کدھر جانے کا ارادہ ہے۔ ”بازار جارہا ہوں“ اپنے اہل خانہ کیلئے کفالت کی ذمہ داری مجھ پر ہے اور تجارت میرا ذریعہ آمدنی ہے۔ میں بازار نہیں جاؤں گا تو خاندان کی کفالت کی ذمہ داری کیسے ادا کروں گا۔ حضرت عمر نے انہیں مشورہ دیا کہ اگر آپ اپنا کپڑا بیچیں گے تو دوسروں کا کپڑا کون خریدے گا۔ آپ کاروبار کو چھوڑ یئے اب آپ پر خلافت کی ذمہ داری آپڑی ہے۔ آپ کی کفالت کا انتظام سرکاری خزانے” بیت المال“ سے ہوجائیگا۔ پھر ان کے لئے بیت المال سے وظیفہ مقرر کردیا گیا۔
حضرت عمر رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ کا یہ فقرہ سند کی حیثیت رکھتا ہے کہ اگر دریائے فرات کے کنارے ایک کتا بھی پیاس سے مرجائے تواس کا جوابدہ ہوں گا۔ یہ فقرہ اپنے اندر گڈگورننس کے تمام اصول سموئے ہوئے ہے۔
مختصر یہ کہ نہروں کا نظام، مردم شماری، صوبوں اور اضلاع کا نظام، سنہ ہجری کا آغاز سب حضرت عمر رضی اللہ عنہ کے دور میں متعارف ہوا۔
یورپ نے بہت سی چیزیں مسلمانوں سے مستعار لی ہیں جیسے عدل وانصاف کا نظام، سوشل ویلفئیر، بلدیاتی سسٹم۔
بلدیاتی سسٹم پہلے نبی اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ والہ وسلم کے دور میں متعارف ہوا جس میں حضرت عمر رضی اللہ تعالٰٰی عنہ نے کافی نئی اصلاحات کیں۔
http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/u...-Ahd Nabvi Ka Shahri Nizam_MDU_3_March_11.htm
حضرت علی رضی اللہ تعالٰی عنہ کا فرمان ہے کہ کفر کی ریاست تو قائم رہ سکتی ہے لیکن ناانصافی پر مبنی ریاست قائم نہیں رہ سکتی۔ اسی طرح ایک موقع پر حضرت محمد صلی اللہ علیہ والہ وسلم نے ایک قریش کی عورت کو سزا دیتے ہوئے کہا کہ اگر میری بیٹی فاطمہ بھی ہوتی تو اس کی بھی یہی سزا ہوتی۔
حضرت عمر رضی اللہ عنہ نے خود احتسابی کے لئے خود کو پیش کیا کہ میر المومنین حضرت عمر بن خطاب سے ایک عام نمازی نے مسجد نبوی میں نماز جمعہ کے خطبہ کے دوران خلیفہ وقت سے ان کی اپنے حصہ سے زیادہ کپڑا سے لمبی قمیض کے بارے میں سوال کیا، جس پر حضرت عمر نے یہ وضاحت پیش کی کہ ان کے بیٹے نے اپنی قمیض کا کپڑا ان کی خدمت میں پیش کر دیا تھا۔
یہ نظریہ بھی حضرت عمر رضی اللہ تعالٰی عنہ نے دیا کہ تاجر اچھا حکمران نہیں بن سکتا۔ حضرت ابوبکر صدیق رضی اللہ عنہ خلیفہ بنے تو دوسرے دن اپنے کاند ھوں پر کپڑے رکھ کر بازار کی طرف نکل کھڑے ہوئے حضرت عمر فاروق رضی اللہ عنہ نے انہیں دیکھا اور پوچھا کپڑے کاندھے پر رکھے کدھر جانے کا ارادہ ہے۔ ”بازار جارہا ہوں“ اپنے اہل خانہ کیلئے کفالت کی ذمہ داری مجھ پر ہے اور تجارت میرا ذریعہ آمدنی ہے۔ میں بازار نہیں جاؤں گا تو خاندان کی کفالت کی ذمہ داری کیسے ادا کروں گا۔ حضرت عمر نے انہیں مشورہ دیا کہ اگر آپ اپنا کپڑا بیچیں گے تو دوسروں کا کپڑا کون خریدے گا۔ آپ کاروبار کو چھوڑ یئے اب آپ پر خلافت کی ذمہ داری آپڑی ہے۔ آپ کی کفالت کا انتظام سرکاری خزانے” بیت المال“ سے ہوجائیگا۔ پھر ان کے لئے بیت المال سے وظیفہ مقرر کردیا گیا۔
حضرت عمر رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ کا یہ فقرہ سند کی حیثیت رکھتا ہے کہ اگر دریائے فرات کے کنارے ایک کتا بھی پیاس سے مرجائے تواس کا جوابدہ ہوں گا۔ یہ فقرہ اپنے اندر گڈگورننس کے تمام اصول سموئے ہوئے ہے۔
مختصر یہ کہ نہروں کا نظام، مردم شماری، صوبوں اور اضلاع کا نظام، سنہ ہجری کا آغاز سب حضرت عمر رضی اللہ عنہ کے دور میں متعارف ہوا۔
InsafianPTI
Minister (2k+ posts)
Now whether IK will be successful or not thats another debate, depends on how things go and how he reacts to them, but you like many others are hell bent to send him to hell for even dreaming about bringing the concept of welfare state in pakistan! I mean how dare he (i am referning to your last para).
Now about this highlighted bit, your own reference proves the point that you had been debating all that time.
Of course it is obvious while west has progressed so much they have made advancements in all their systems, and anyone with the little bit of brain would think that the system is more developed and organised than that of those times.
weren't we just debating about where it comes from?
http://criticalppp.com/archives/82835
Story behind Imran Khan’s “Omar’s Law” – by Maisam Ali
Make-believe is emerging reality of town that is home to urban middle class of Pakistan in general and that of Punjab in particular. The town is more of a la-la land thriving on aspiring dream of a utopia that would not be polluted with any form of immorality found on the face of earth. Hyper nationalism, self-righteous morality, monolithic religious identity, antipathy to diversity and chauvinism are constituents, making up whole edifice of the far-fetched dream, that are more prone to lead it to dystopia instead of a utopia. The first casualty, being the historical tradition, in pursuit of propagating the tall tales has been the truth itself concealed under fabrications and factual inaccuracies. Bells and whistles certainly sound more attractive than weary details. Who got the time for details, anyways!
Latest revelation is the astonishing claim of Messiah Imran Khan that the concept of Welfare State in Europe traces its roots to second caliph Omar.
“The PTI chairman said that there was no concept of welfare states in Europe and that they had taken this concept from the Muslim world. “They formed all the Scandinavian states based on this concept. They call it Omar’s law in Sweden. We need to bring our culture back to our own land.”The claim left many of students of history revisit their knowledge about not only political movements in Europe but also caliphate. Nonetheless, only a little effort is needed to debunk the foolish claim that not only is factually inaccurate but laughable to say the least.
Canvassing the Swedish social welfare system doesn’t bring forward the name of Omar, as khan claimed, let alone any resemblance with the caliphate. Then where did Khan take the idea from? The answer is yet another cogent evidence of his shallow perspective of history and cherry-picking habit.
What Khan is doing here is confusing the greater idea of welfare state with the concept of ‘ombudsman’ (a person who acts as a trusted intermediary between either the state (or elements of it) or an organization, and some internal or external constituency, while representing not only but mostly the broad scope of constituent interests). The word comes from Old Norse and essentially means ‘representative’. Ombudsman is not only an essential state organ in Sweden, where it is called Chancellor of Justice, but also in many other countries in the world.
In 1713 the absolute monarch of Sweden Charles XII had created the office of His Majesty’s Supreme Ombudsman. At that time King Charles XII was in Turkey and had been abroad for almost 13 years. In his absence his administration in Sweden had fallen into disarray. He therefore established the Supreme Ombudsman to be his pre-eminent representative in Sweden.
During his stay in Turkey the king observed ‘Diwan al Mazalim’ (a Board of Grievances). Its function was to examine complaints brought by the public against government officials. The institution was headed by a senior judge responsible for examining the grievances. ‘Diwan al Mazalim’ traces its roots to second caliph Omar’s ‘Mohtasib’. Its function was to be a guardian of public morals in many fields of life, especially in the towns and above all in the market place. He was the market supervisor, as well as the settler of disputes. He enjoyed complete independence and functioned within the framework of an institution called ‘Hisbah’.
As far as the Institution of Diwan al Mazalim of Turkey having influenced the establishment of the Provincial Ombudsman’s Institution in Sweden, Ibrahim-al-Wahab in his book “The Swedish Institution Of Ombudsman: An Instrument Of Human Rights” assumes:
“Of course one could not draw definite conclusion regarding the origin of any institution anywhere… but being aware of the handling of complaints from the public was an essential part of the Islamic system of justice. There are therefore good reasons for the assumption that the Islamic system has influenced the creating of the First Provincial Ombudsman in Sweden.”
Nonetheless, the current predecessor of ombudsman institutions, the Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman, is based on the concept of separation of powers as developed by Montesquieu, which has a western origin and roots in the Enlightenment. According to the 1809 Instrument of Government, power was to be divided between the King and the Riksdag (Parliament of Sweden). The King was to appoint the Chancellor of Justice (in other words he was the royal Ombudsman) and the Riksdag was to appoint its own Parliamentary Ombudsman.
Hence, it is not so difficult to conclude that the notion of “Omar’s Law” came from a hypothesis and that too about an institution that is just a part of broader Welfare State concept. Here, like his previous claptrap, Khan seems to have no idea what he is talking about. Once again, he seems to be totally clueless, to say the least, how would he transform a country into a welfare state, that has one of the lowest effective tax rates in the world, equal to about 9 percent of the value of country’s economy. Once again, rhetoric and nave understanding of things seems to be the predominant part of his politics which has nothing to do with ground realities.
Now about this highlighted bit, your own reference proves the point that you had been debating all that time.
Of course it is obvious while west has progressed so much they have made advancements in all their systems, and anyone with the little bit of brain would think that the system is more developed and organised than that of those times.
weren't we just debating about where it comes from?
WatanDost
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
[MENTION=19947]M Ali Khan[/MENTION] , [MENTION=8740]awan4ever[/MENTION], [MENTION=20415]Tutor[/MENTION]
Below Is Historic Proof Of Omar's Law.
Sweden Denail is Not Acceptable, if they Didt Took an Inspiration By Omars Law,
They may be Enlightened By European or Central Asian States Welfare State System, And We all Know that Europe and These STATES were ruled and Governed by
Muslims and Later They APPLIED and CONTINUED the Practice of Those laws.
If Sweden MADE THIS Model of Present Welfare State, Than CODE THE Authentic Source FIrST.
Policies applied to Jews and Christians in the time of caliph farooq-e-azam(ra)
1. Statements by Syrian Christians in the document known as the Umar Agreement in history presented to Abu Ubayda:
[We imposed these terms on ourselves:]… not to withhold our churches from Muslims stopping there by night or day; to open their doors to the traveler and wayfarer; … to entertain every Muslim traveler in our customary style and feed him… We will not abuse a Muslim, and he who strikes a Muslim has forfeited his rights.
(Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press, 1955), 193-94.)
2. When Hazrat Umar (ra) captured Jerusalem in person in 637 he issued a decree to the people of the city and announced that the places of worship of the People of the Book would not be touched.
3. Hazrat Umar’s (ra) promise to the Medina Christians contains the principle that “None from the Christian faith shall be forced to become Muslims against their will.”
4. The article concerning dhimmis in the treaty between Christians and Muslims in the time of Hazrat Umar (ra) is very important.
"If one of them becomes weak or old or suffers from sickness or becomes poor when once he was rich, he and his family will receive assistance from the public purse for so long as they are in Islamic territories."
5. Hazrat Umar’s (ra) statement in the pre-agreement with the people of Sham (Damascus):
Do not take the lands bestowed by Allah away from people and impose the jizye [capitation tax] according to people’s ability to pay, as set out in the Book of Allah. Do not ask for more if the jizye is paid by them... If we share the lands among ourselves, nothing will remain for their children. If the lands are left to their true owners, then Muslims can live on what they produce. You may impose the jizye on them, but you can never take them captive. You may commit no injustice that will offend or harm them, and you may not take away their property of you have no right to it. You must fulfill the responsibilities you have accepted in their agreements with us. (Majid Khoduri, Islam in War and Peace, Fener Press, Istanbul, 1998, p. 216) __________________
Below Is Historic Proof Of Omar's Law.
Sweden Denail is Not Acceptable, if they Didt Took an Inspiration By Omars Law,
They may be Enlightened By European or Central Asian States Welfare State System, And We all Know that Europe and These STATES were ruled and Governed by
Muslims and Later They APPLIED and CONTINUED the Practice of Those laws.
If Sweden MADE THIS Model of Present Welfare State, Than CODE THE Authentic Source FIrST.
Policies applied to Jews and Christians in the time of caliph farooq-e-azam(ra)
1. Statements by Syrian Christians in the document known as the Umar Agreement in history presented to Abu Ubayda:
[We imposed these terms on ourselves:]… not to withhold our churches from Muslims stopping there by night or day; to open their doors to the traveler and wayfarer; … to entertain every Muslim traveler in our customary style and feed him… We will not abuse a Muslim, and he who strikes a Muslim has forfeited his rights.
(Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press, 1955), 193-94.)
2. When Hazrat Umar (ra) captured Jerusalem in person in 637 he issued a decree to the people of the city and announced that the places of worship of the People of the Book would not be touched.
3. Hazrat Umar’s (ra) promise to the Medina Christians contains the principle that “None from the Christian faith shall be forced to become Muslims against their will.”
4. The article concerning dhimmis in the treaty between Christians and Muslims in the time of Hazrat Umar (ra) is very important.
"If one of them becomes weak or old or suffers from sickness or becomes poor when once he was rich, he and his family will receive assistance from the public purse for so long as they are in Islamic territories."
5. Hazrat Umar’s (ra) statement in the pre-agreement with the people of Sham (Damascus):
Do not take the lands bestowed by Allah away from people and impose the jizye [capitation tax] according to people’s ability to pay, as set out in the Book of Allah. Do not ask for more if the jizye is paid by them... If we share the lands among ourselves, nothing will remain for their children. If the lands are left to their true owners, then Muslims can live on what they produce. You may impose the jizye on them, but you can never take them captive. You may commit no injustice that will offend or harm them, and you may not take away their property of you have no right to it. You must fulfill the responsibilities you have accepted in their agreements with us. (Majid Khoduri, Islam in War and Peace, Fener Press, Istanbul, 1998, p. 216) __________________
