'Omar's Law is UNKNOWN in Sweden': Swedish historian to Imran Khan

[Byronic Qazi]

khan was right coz same quote i was listen by a moulana in 2009 dat y we muslims r not acting on islam non muslims r using hazrat umar law and also pay zakat to muslims

 

[Byronic Qazi]

the moulana was a mufti and i listen him in PESH masjid during eid khutba

 

[Dengue]

Beta jee, Farooq Sulehria LIVES in Sweden nowadays and he has cited the historian's name



and about Sulehria himself:

Farooq Sulehria is currently pursuing his media studies. Previously, he has worked with Stockholm-based Weekly Internationalen. In Pakistan, he has worked with The Nation, The Frontier Post, The News, and the Pakistan. He has MA in Mass Communication from the University of Punjab, Lahore. He also contributes for Znet and various left publications internationally.

abe Ch... he is in london ... it says previously he worked with stockholm bases weekly .. previous ka matlab pata hai ? use wajah se article main he said viewpoint team .. he never mentioned he him self met that prof .. who ever that prof is ..

 

[Tahirbashir]

Agar mai kahoo k no so chuhey kha k billi haj ko chali to pmln waaley pagal saudia pohanch jayain gay k billi daikh lain
Arey pagal imran ki missal say kuch seekh hi lo tum verify karna shrough ho gaye ho

 

[Muhammad Ikhlaq Siddiqui]

Sounds like Ik n haroon rashid r under zahid hamid's influence...lolzz

 

[Khansaber]

MY TWO CENTS IN WHOLE DISCUSSION

>>>. IK NEED MAJORITY TO WIN BUT SHIA AS OF THEIR BELIEVE DON't RELAY MUCH On FIRST 3 CALIPHS SO ENOUGH IS DISCUSSED On this topic UNLESS U WANT TO KEEP CREATING DISTANCE AMONG VOTERS ON BASE OF Sect BELIeve SYSTEM

>>>>OR WHEN DISCUSS HAZRAT UMAR ,DISCUSS HAZART ALI TOO IN SAME Settings

( As its Political forum so take my point as Political view , No religious or Sect arguments .Thanks)

May Allah keep us ALL on right track and guide us .Ameen

 

[mirza40]

These so-called Muslims and Pakistanis as well as those swedish people, are far from the reality of Khulfaye Rashideen's Adil e Ijtimayi's ideaology. It was real System of Allah and his Rasool P.B.U.H. How can anyone compare that pure system where a ruler looked poor than a common man in the contrary these systems are concept of materialism?

 

[mirza40]

:alhamd: That pure system of Adil e Ijtimayie will come soon by all means. Whoever sacrifices his soul and life for its enforcement that will be enjoying real worlds of ALLAH and His Rasool P.B.U.H.

 

[Ghzanfar]

[h=2]Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_Justice

History[/h]The concept of Ombudsmen was derived from the example of the second Muslim Caliph, Umar Bin Khattab (634-644CE) and the concept of Qadi al-Qadat (developed in the Muslim world), which influenced the Swedish King, Charles XII.[SUP][1][/SUP] In 1713 King Charles XII, preoccupied with fighting the Great Northern War, was residing in Bendery and had not set foot in Sweden in over a decade. In order to reestablish the domestic administration, which had fallen into disarray, he instituted the office of His Majesty's Supreme Ombudsman, which soon became the Chancellor of Justice.The office commenced operation on October 23, 1714 and the role of the official was to ensure that judges and public officials acted in accordance with the laws, proficiently discharged their tasks, and if not he could initiate legal proceedings for dereliction of duty. This was the origin of the Ombudsman institution.
The current name was adopted in 1719, by the Instrument of Government of the same year. The Chancellor performed an important task as ombudsman, but only acted on behalf of the royal government. In the Instrument of Government of 1809 a counterpart to act on the behalf of Parliament was instituted as the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

 

[M Ali Khan]

These so-called Muslims and Pakistanis as well as those swedish people, are far from the reality of Khulfaye Rashideen's Adil e Ijtimayi's ideaology. It was real System of Allah and his Rasool P.B.U.H. How can anyone compare that pure system where a ruler looked poor than a common man in the contrary these systems are concept of materialism?

and yet 3 of the 4 Khulafa were murdered at the hands of fellow Muslims (2 if dont want to call Abu Lulu Pirooz as a 'muslim') and chaos plagued the land for nearly half that era that last what? 15 years? For crying out loud, we have wasted 1400 years living in the past and failing to move on!

looks like that system we praise in our Islamiat books and khutbas only had an impact on our obsession with nostalgia of past. than practicality of today.

 

[patriot]

The ideas that inspired the French Revolution and the Declaration of Rights that guided the framing of the American Constitution and inflamed the struggle for independence in the Latin American countries [and elsewhere] were not inventions of the West. They find their ultimate inspiration and source in the Holy Koran.
- “Making of Humanity” by Robert Briffault

“Roger Bacon owed his illumination to the Muslim Moors of Spain. The great figures of European Renaissance could see further because they stood on the shoulders of the giants of the Muslim world. — Those achievements represent what the Muslim world has been in the past. They also point to what it could become in the future.” (Richard Nixon - Nixon’s Ten Commandments

“The Renaissance of Europe did not take place in the 15th century. Rather it began when Europe learned from the culture of the Arabs. The cradle of European awakening is not Italy. It is the Muslim Spain.” (Robert Briffault, The Making of Humanity)

 

[VivaPakistan]

When I heard this from I. Khan, I was shocked too. "Khan sahib nain yeh aisay hee aik chawal maar dee"
I am also living here for many years and though welfare system here is very close to that in Omar (RA)'s time but nobody here call this Omar's law.
Khan sahib should be extremely careful in giving such statements and should not behave as Javed Choudhry, who normally writes such strange things in his articles.
Khan sahib nain Karachi ke jalsay main bhi aik chawal maar dee thee, Sardar Asif wali wicket kee. Khan sahib ko naap tol ke bolna chahiay :)

 

[Sedqal]

Two important aspects of this discussion:

Muslim contribution to west has the following main schools of thought:

a. Western scholars who argue that no Muslim contribution was made except the fact that Muslims translated and secured ancient Greek texts (philosophy and science) and made it possible for western powers to gain from Greeks.
b. Western scholars who argue that Muslims not only transferred the Greek knowledge to western powers but also developed and transferred their own considerable body of work built on Greek foundations.
c. Muslim scholars which argue that the idea of renaissance and majority of policies in this regard were borrowed from Muslims by west.

arguments for A:
1. The foundation of Muslim sciences was made by Greeks. Ibne Sina, Ibne Khaldoon, Ibne Rush all were highly influenced by Greek philosophy.
2. It is telling that Muslims today use their names (Ibne Sina etc) to make the point that Muslims have contributed to science but no where in Islamic world there is any proper work done on the Philosophical ideas presented by the same people.
3. The argument that Scientific spirit was a result of Greek influence, Islam had no role to play in motivating or directing scientific research.
4. Western figures which very central is promoting renaissance were mainly against religious dogma. It does not make sense that they will leave church and move to Islam for inspiration (e.g. Voltaire).

Arguments for B:
1. Muslims built upon the Greek knowledge. Greek knowledge was a catalyst for further research but not the basis for scientific inquiry.
2. The sacred text of Muslims treat knowledge with high esteem.
3. Translation of Greek texts resulted in commentaries and comparative studies which hold a value independent of the original texts.

Arguments for C:
1. Muslim historians point out that Muslim Spain was exceptionally developed as compared to the rest of Europe. Knowledge was highly prized and private library was a sign of prestige.
2. Educational institutes in Spain were famous all over Europe and attracted the elite from throughout the continent.
3. The ideals of justice, social welfare, accountability and equal rights were borrowed from Muslim caliphs (specifically first four).

I have found good arguments on A and B but C is rather a stretch.

 

[ShaadPak]

I'll suggest you read the "Muqadma-e-Ibn Khaldoon", Ibn Khaldoon is the founder of Sociology...
There you'll find most of your answers and it is the main source, which you are looking for.

It seem you are too much under the influence of European recent success, that you have forgotten the muslim's history.
Muslim have reached to this stage because of selfish & short sited rulers and because of those who are running after other societies, while they should work to change & make their own society better.

We are all responsible for our nation's suffering... we are not sincere and honest with out own nation.
Instead we should revisit the Quran and learn it and seek guidance from it, not falling prey to pre-defined views of vision-less mullahs...

 

[mirza40]

When a pure revolution come out with its true and real aspects on the lives of the people then counter powers spread their evil ideas due to failure of their beliefs. Who were suffered from that pure revolution? They were Jews and Parsis(old Iranian people). It is long history and one can accept it who really believe in ALLAH, Quran e Hakim, Mohammadpbuh including all messengers, judgement day and Angels.
When you fight again ALLAH's law, it's mean at first hand, our muslim brothers are fighting with ALLAH because ALLAH has prohibited Interest(SUD) by any means and people(including Jews, Christians, Muslims and other) on this earth are following a global evil system based on 'interest', 'casinos', stock exchanges', 'insurance', etc.
The solution is only one to establish a society based on humanity, equality where 'haves' and 'have not', must be treated according to the law.
People come to this world for a limited time. There are more than 7 billion people are living on this earth but nobody can claim how long he will live?
Look around your world what people are doing everywhere tensions, destructions and look at universe, is there any change?

 

[InsafianPTI]

Ok I can understand what you are saying but how is it possible that they didn't know anything about islamic history while they have most of the features of islamic welfare state?

There is also a possibility that past generations of these countries did adobt from muslim states as muslims were once source of knowledge.

In western knowledge and history of learning islam doesn't exist at All, islam is almost non-existant (at times when it was ruling half the world)

All I'm trying to say whatever they teach from their books could not necessarily mean a complete histroy or the real ground reality!(This man is most probably right about what he is saying from the knowledge he has learned)

Maybe you should actually read the article before commenting.

The man did NOT dispute the achievements of the Muslims. He just said that the Swedes did not model their modern welfare state based on any Islamic principles or knowledge. He says the Swedes are unaware of Islamic history. That doesnt mean they are disputing Islamic history.

I hope you know how the difference.

 

[InsafianPTI]

yes you won't find much on C because of the historic biased against Islam.
yes christianity had been challenged during the projection and evolution of these new societies and thinking paradigms But that is because christianity existed in society as a practice and belief, Islam didn't, so references perhaps disapperared as well.
Now what makes me take this position (calling them biased) is that their history is completely silent about islam (a religion that existed in europe and ruled as well especially in spain).

This silence is meaningful to me!

Two important aspects of this discussion:

Muslim contribution to west has the following main schools of thought:

a. Western scholars who argue that no Muslim contribution was made except the fact that Muslims translated and secured ancient Greek texts (philosophy and science) and made it possible for western powers to gain from Greeks.
b. Western scholars who argue that Muslims not only transferred the Greek knowledge to western powers but also developed and transferred their own considerable body of work built on Greek foundations.
c. Muslim scholars which argue that the idea of renaissance and majority of policies in this regard were borrowed from Muslims by west.

arguments for A:
1. The foundation of Muslim sciences was made by Greeks. Ibne Sina, Ibne Khaldoon, Ibne Rush all were highly influenced by Greek philosophy.
2. It is telling that Muslims today use their names (Ibne Sina etc) to make the point that Muslims have contributed to science but no where in Islamic world there is any proper work done on the Philosophical ideas presented by the same people.
3. The argument that Scientific spirit was a result of Greek influence, Islam had no role to play in motivating or directing scientific research.
4. Western figures which very central is promoting renaissance were mainly against religious dogma. It does not make sense that they will leave church and move to Islam for inspiration (e.g. Voltaire).

Arguments for B:
1. Muslims built upon the Greek knowledge. Greek knowledge was a catalyst for further research but not the basis for scientific inquiry.
2. The sacred text of Muslims treat knowledge with high esteem.
3. Translation of Greek texts resulted in commentaries and comparative studies which hold a value independent of the original texts.

Arguments for C:
1. Muslim historians point out that Muslim Spain was exceptionally developed as compared to the rest of Europe. Knowledge was highly prized and private library was a sign of prestige.
2. Educational institutes in Spain were famous all over Europe and attracted the elite from throughout the continent.
3. The ideals of justice, social welfare, accountability and equal rights were borrowed from Muslim caliphs (specifically first four).

I have found good arguments on A and B but C is rather a stretch.

 

[awan4ever]

Ok I can understand what you are saying but how is it possible that they didn't know anything about islamic history while they have most of the features of islamic welfare state?

There is also a possibility that past generations of these countries did adobt from muslim states as muslims were once source of knowledge.

In western knowledge and history of learning islam doesn't exist at All, islam is almost non-existant (at times when it was ruling half the world)

All I'm trying to say whatever they teach from their books could not necessarily mean a complete histroy or the real ground reality!(This man is most probably right about what he is saying from the knowledge he has learned)

It is totally possible that they have not heard of those laws. The modern Nordic welfare system is not that old. So if their policy makers were establishing their laws after reading up on ancient Islamic principles then it isnt hard to miss if someone sifts through the history of their legislative process.

All I am asking for is for someone to point to an academically researched source or any direct evidence in the form of a memoir or a book which explicitly uses the term 'Omarian Law' or details the policy making principles of the Swedes which show that Islam was used as a foundation stone. It shouldnt be hard. I even gave some research resources in an earlier post.

Everyone is just assuming that it is 'not possible' that they havent heard of the Islamic welfare state. It can similarly be assumed that they hadnt. Its just one persons word against another.

 

[Sedqal]

I'll suggest you read the "Muqadma-e-Ibn Khaldoon", Ibn Khaldoon is the founder of Sociology...
There you'll find most of your answers and it is the main source, which you are looking for.

It seem you are too much under the influence of European recent success, that you have forgotten the muslim's history.
Muslim have reached to this stage because of selfish & short sited rulers and because of those who are running after other societies, while they should work to change & make their own society better.

We are all responsible for our nation's suffering... we are not sincere and honest with out own nation.
Instead we should revisit the Quran and learn it and seek guidance from it, not falling prey to pre-defined views of vision-less mullahs...​

I don't know if the above was directed at me. In any case consider the following:

1. Ibne Khaldoon was so sarcastic toward the Arabs that he is considered by many to be Agnostic. Another telling sign is that his social theories are based on a natural order free from any divine intervention or divine design.
2. Ibne Khaldoon's work is not essentially the result of his being Muslim. The line of argument (A) which I pointed out earlier argues that Greek rationality has this effect on Muslim scholars otherwise they had no direction from their religion.

I am of the opinion that Muslims themselves brought this disaster on their heads, they alienated the Muslim intellectuals who had the vision to lead this nation anywhere and simply ridiculed the notion that other nations can possibly become strong enough to control them. One still gets the lame theories of how West will destroy itself due to their sins, how Muslims had the real talent but couldn't get anywhere due to their leaders and Jews and how the world is shivering with the thought of rise of Islam. Unless Muslims own up to their own failures I don't see them getting anywhere. Allah is just and God of all, we should not expect like Jews that we are very special and will always prevail (a cursory study of Jewish history can tell how much they had to suffer).

For rest of the members here is a golden quote from Ibe Khaldoon (thanks to wiki) ""an institution which prevents injustice other than such as it commits itself" See how this fits perfectly on Pakistan today. Armed groups were created on basis of Jihad, sectarian conflicts and regional politics without thinking for a second that these groups are a power structure which will challenge the writ of government sooner or later. Government must have a monopoly on violence for a society to operate, ideally the intellectual segment keeps an check on Govt so it does not misuse its monopoly. The tables have turned armed groups now seem to enjoy this monopoly on violence where Govt is mostly seen begging for its writ.

 

[Unicorn]

Most probably IK heard from some one. He is trying to get some support using religion. I am not sure weather to call it a white lie or a slippery slope.