Hudhuda insaan ya parinda?

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

First answer the question and then you can keep explaining what is the reason of your choice

So please first you answer the question

If you think my choice is senseless regardless of rules then there is no question to answer. First you got to agree to to rules of judgement which give you right to ask questions and give me right to answer. otherwise it is matter of might is right. Reason v force or numbers or end justifies means. If wisdom is not in the discussion then it is just a void exercise or rather a swearing contest.

So dear brother show patience and wisdom.

regards and all the best.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

If you think my choice is senseless regardless of rules then there is no question to answer. First you got to agree to to rules of judgement which give you right to ask questions and give me right to answer. otherwise it is matter of might is right. Reason v force or numbers or end justifies means. If wisdom is not in the discussion then it is just a void exercise or rather a swearing contest.

So dear brother show patience and wisdom.

regards and all the best.

How can i say that your choice is senseless untill you choose it?????
So
First you choose and answer the question.

than you can tell me that what is the reason of you choice.

 

[babadeena]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Dear Mughal1,

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِنْ ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنْ لِيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي ۖ قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا ۚ وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{260[/FONT]

260 Each Nabi has been confronted with the problem of giving life to a dead nation. For instance, Abraham faced such a problem and said to Allah: What is the process by which new life may be infused into a dead nation?. Allah asked him: Do you not believe that dead nations may receive new life?. Abraham said: I do believe but I would like to know by what process, so that I can undertake it with full confidence. Allah explained the process to Abraham through an example. He said: Take four untamed birds. At first they will seek to get away from you. Make them familiar with yourself gradually. This will bring about remarkable change in them. Even if you set them free and call to them, they will come to you swiftly. This is how you must patiently reform those who rebel against your call and bring them close to yourself and make them understand and appreciate the Divine System. This is how they will receive life. Most certainly Allah is All-Mighty, Wise.

Dear you can see yourself, this is translation of Late.GA Pervez.:
a) It is absolutely not nearer to the arabic context;
b) He himself translated tahir as birds, whereas he omitted this word from his
translation of verse from sura namal. This is double standard;

Which I get from late GA Parvez, translation is that: HE TRANSLATED WHOLE
OF QURAN ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WHIMS, IDEAS AND HIS PRE-DETERMINED
CONCEPT. AND THIS IS REALLY CHILLING AND VERY UNFORTUNATE. HE
MUST HAVE A DIFFERENT AGENDA AND WISHES TO ACQUIRE IT THROUGH
THE UTILIZATION OF WRONG TRANSLATION OF QURAN.
He seems to be completely naive of the basic principle of translation which
is "keep the translated version equal to original words or to the best nearer
to that words". He rather omitted the arabic text and this is unforigveable crime
as far as Quran's translation is concerned. Sorry if I hurt your feeling but when
things are related to Quran, I am very harsh even with my dear ones from my
kins.

 

[makdaone]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Arabi zuban kee Alphabet nahi atee or deka rahey hain Kafroun kee film or Fiction, intiha hoge hai Munafqat kee , ***** hai asey logoun per.

 

[biomat]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Brother [MENTION=7169]babadeena[/MENTION]
Assalam-o-alaikum
You didnot get it. Mighal1 wants from us to teach him ARABIC GRAMMER RULE or CORRECT RULE OF TRANSLATION.
If not then he has his GAP's ideology for translating Quran in a story type explanatory translation, adding parts & some times explaining the sentence according to LATEST TECHNOLOGY ADVANCEMENT or CURRENT TIME OF THE WORLD..
==========================
So if you cut & paste whole translations of late GAP (i have seen also, sorry to say it is kind of STORY or QASASUL UMBIYA LIKE style adding other information into real meaning), he will stick to the point that WHAT IS THE RULE OF TRANSLATION.
AL-TAIR word will come later when you & him will establish a rule. Bro ABDUL ALLAH is trying for last 5 to 6 posts to establish a common ground but still no luck...
So have you any thing in your mind to have a common ground.. For example WHAT IS THE TRANSLATION OF "GLASS OF WATER" in urdu.
Same he want to know how arabic (specially) QURANIC ARABIC BE TRANSLATED.. ???
MERRY GO ROUND>>>>>>

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

My 3rd rule is origin and use of language. It is obvious that humanity came to existence long before it learned to speak and therefrom brought about rules of grammar. This I am saying in sense of how Allah brought about this world and set it up to evolve into what it is today by way of natural processes that gave rise to phenomena that we observe and react to. The way we observe the real world the way it is planned or programmed by Allah and that is why the quran cannot be understood in isolation. The relationship between universe and revelation is like an instruction manual to a machine. One is totally useless without the others due to complexity involved therein. You cannot even fix a faulty iron without knowing how the manufacturer has shut the casing or you will break it while opening it up due to some hidden screws.

If we observe a human baby and animals babies we can see how language came about amongst humans. Just as Allah did not throw on our heads a huge printing press neither did he sit before us as our teacher like a man to teach us what we knew not, instead it was all a natural process be it by way of divine inspirations. How did hunting animals learned hunting? How they learned to walk and run? It was not that Allah said let there be a baby and there it was. All these happening are showing us very clearly the way Allah works in the nature. Nothing fits kun fayakoon in sense of something was said and there it was. No matter how many mullas attribute lies to Allah but facts do not change. All the evidence as one can see is clearly against the mullas understanding of the quran.

All this explains what KUN FAYAKOON means and what BI IZNILLAH means or far that matter what FA'A LULLI MAA YUREED means. It does not mean Allah said, let there be a printing press for man. So there it was. If it happen like that in your opinion please explain and show the evidence. I can assure you that you cannot then why talk silly about the quran?

How did Allah create Adam? Any proof he said, let there be Adam and there he was? 3/61 perhaps? Was creation of Adam any different from the way Allah created the rest of universe? Any proof from the quran? No.

Can anyone see how one cannot understand the quran just from the quran alone or just from the grammar alone? One has to get back to real word and from his experience he has to derive whatever explanations one can to the best of one's abilities.

Just to explain it a bit, all languages present today have mother languages from which they have been derived. As we move up the pyramid or family tree there number reduces just like people themselves. Although we can take human family tree back to its origin but we cannot take language tree back similarly because it is quite possible that humans in different places may have developed languages of their own. But basic thing to remember is that words gradually arose from whatever noises people used to make to communicate with each other. Their original communications were all about natural needs eg to stay safe, food, reproduction etc etc. If one tries to find out why we call our mothers mothers it can be explained in great detail. It is because we are fed by mothers after birth and cared for. Even today when we talk to our baby children or grandchildren we tell then MAM MAM when we mean to tell them about food. MAM MAM karns hai?

This is why interpreting that Allah created Adam and then taught him language is not the right interpretation the way mullas want us to understand it. It was all a gradual process of nature. Nature is better understood by those who observe it 24x7 and explain it to the best of their abilities.

All this like evidences clearly show that mullas have misled us. We need to ask ourselves why? As I explained already everyone has a self interest or one can also make a honest mistake but a person who makes an honest mistake is always willing to accept his mistakes and goes for correction however a person who is involved in something for his own ends, he does not correct himself because that goes against his objective, which is self interest. If we therefore accept personalities instead of facts and wisdom as basis then we become trapped. Because it then becomes a matter of choosing a side. When you choose a side you have to go with it because if you do not then you are in trouble with the group that you belong to. This is where reason and group mentality based upon wrong person based leadership become enemy of each other. You then either follow the leader or reason. This is why choosing leadership is better if leadership is restricted to reason ie anyone who sticks to reason follow him or support him but not anyone who leaves reason and instead relies on might is right.

Once reason is accepted from then on rules of grammar become important because language helps us reason things out. You do not need language when it is only matter of fighting but you do need language when you want to secure yourself by bringing others closer to you. This way you no longer fear people who are with you because you all know each other. This is how we realised that we need to invent not only grammar but also other rules for other things eg measurement units to do maths and to do other researches and explorations. This is how evolved various fields of knowledge.

At no time it happened that we saw the need for something and prayed to Allah and he said to it, be there and it was. This is why these are childish way of looking at the real world and the quran. This is why they are just our make beliefs. Allah always worked the way he set up the whole thing. No change has ever been witness in the way the natural world works.

What is grammar? Some words for names eg proper nouns, pronouns, common nouns, adjectives etc etc ie mahmood, man, good, some words for being and doing eg verbs ie eat, drink, is etc. some words for adverbs, some for articles eg a, an, the, prepositions showing relationships or position of one thing to the other. conjunctions eg or, and, but etc etc etc.

It is however important to realise that grammatical rules came after the languages. Some people realised that it was important to see how language is structured so they grouped the words used into various groups. Then groups are further divided into groups like a family tree.

In urdu we have different names as compared to english eg ism=noun, adjective=ism sifat, verb-fail, harf =preposition and so on and so forth, muanas=feminine, muzaakar= masculine, jamma aur wahad waghera waghera. mutakalim=speaker, mukhatan=addressed, ghaib=3rd person and so on.

Arabic is very different from other languages in more than one way eg its origin, its structure and its evolution.

The quran is not written like normal arabic language literture eg prose or poetry etc. It is a unique structure of language.

more may be later if people are still awake.

 

[niazi]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

On three basic rules quran is translated by scholars ,these rules were set by Shabahs(RA),
1.Translate quranic arabic by writing nearest meaning and as one subject is repeated in quran several times using quranic text that support the interpretation.
2.If scholars dont find it in quran then they look in hadith of prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him) and then interpret the verse.
3.lastly if they don't find in quran and hadith then they seek help from sahabahs(RA) interpretation .
We are not suppose to introduce interpretation of quran according to our wishes,as quraan mentioned it several times ,it was bani Israel who interpreted their holy book according to their wishes by twisting the meaning.

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

On three basic rules quran is translated by scholars ,these rules were set by Shabahs(RA),
1.Translate quranic arabic by writing nearest meaning and as one subject is repeated in quran several times using quranic text that support the interpretation.
2.If scholars dont find it in quran then they look in hadith of prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him) and then interpret the verse.
3.lastly if they don't find in quran and hadith then they seek help from sahabahs(RA) interpretation .
We are not suppose to introduce interpretation of quran according to our wishes,as quraan mentioned it several times ,it was bani Israel who interpreted their holy book according to their wishes by twisting the meaning.

Dear brother niazi, are you basing these rules on the ones I stated or are these rules independent of rules that I have stated? If they are based upon the ones I have stated then I accept them. The rule of TAFSEER al quran bil quran. It is also called rule of tasreef. It is fine.

I have stated these rules already in my threads and explained them as to their proper use with related arguments. I do not accept them as mullas would have us accept them because then they do not work.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?50607-Pakistan-religion-secularism-amp-tribalism/page2

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?50593-Javed-Ghamdi-Salman-Taseer-Asma-Jhangir-Khuda-ka-khof-karen-plz!-Nice-Column-by-Orya-Maqbool-Jan/page5


As for bani israel, they did two things a) misinterpreted scriptures to turn deen in to mazhab and b) changed divine revelation with prophetic sayings. Which is like replacing the quran with hadith. They did that not only with torah but zaboor and injeel as well.

That is what happens when people with knowledge go to sleep, which gives freedom to wrong people to take over the seat of power. They then create a team of mullas=priestly class to mess up things in order to give legitimacy to their imperial rule.

It is because they do not go by proper rules that is why a confusion is created and chaos results that gives rise to sects. It is the very reason we must interpret the scriptures by rules ie to remove confusion and chaos.

This turns mazhab back to deen but mazhab does not go easily because people become so addicted to mazhab that it becomes very difficult for them to accept deen without some sort of mazhabi connection.

Even in time of the prophet when jews were invited to new revelation they made demands on the prophet to bring them miracles like that of prophets of old. These were their made up stories to prevent people from thought process and to stop them from taking the divine prophets seriously. Because when you base things on an impossible condition, you render the prophetic mission ineffective in minds of people. Because no body fulfills that condition so nobody is prophet as far as those people are concerned. Like so called miracles attributed to Moses or Jesus etc. Likewise one of their problem was the demand for restoration of cult of sacrifice at the altar that would be burnt for atonement of their sins. The altar was in Jerushalem and it was not in power of muslims to take over and give it back to jews. This like conditions were set by them to fool their own people to keep them under their thumb. This kind of nonsense was not only problem of jews but each prophet was asked similar things ie bring us miracles the kind of which they demanded ie they wanted prophets to act like magicians rather than take the role of divine teachers as leaders to better their condition through reforming them. The answer by Allah was always that Allah does not give any sign save that which is his revelation for them and it is in their own interest to follow the revelation and benefit thereby. That is why only sensible people followed the prophets and the stupid people just kept on putting in place moe and more stupid conditions. This only made their lives bad to wost. All because Allah does not change peoples' lives for the better unless they follow a program that he revealed for them.

regards and all the best.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

more may be later if people are still awake.

People Specially I am waiting for the answer of my simple question with simple answer.

You are writing articles but not answering the question.
and you are trying to explain your answer before giving any answer. that is totally wrong and against the wisdom

You must first answer then explain your answer.

 

[biomat]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

People Specially I am waiting for the answer of my simple question with simple answer.

You are writing articles but not answering the question.
and you are trying to explain your answer before giving any answer. that is totally wrong and against the wisdom

You must first answer then explain your answer.

Bro Abdul ALLAH i think he wants every one to sleep. (Originally Posted by Mughal1 more may be later if people are still awake.)
I dont think he will answer, lets hope for the best.. MERRY GO ROUND.. ROUND ROUND ROUND... MERRY GO ROUND..

 

[patriot]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Brother @babadeena
Assalam-o-alaikum
You didnot get it. Mighal1 wants from us to teach him ARABIC GRAMMER RULE or CORRECT RULE OF TRANSLATION.
If not then he has his GAP's ideology for translating Quran in a story type explanatory translation, adding parts & some times explaining the sentence according to LATEST TECHNOLOGY ADVANCEMENT or CURRENT TIME OF THE WORLD..
==========================
So if you cut & paste whole translations of late GAP (i have seen also, sorry to say it is kind of STORY or QASASUL UMBIYA LIKE style adding other information into real meaning), he will stick to the point that WHAT IS THE RULE OF TRANSLATION.
AL-TAIR word will come later when you & him will establish a rule. Bro ABDUL ALLAH is trying for last 5 to 6 posts to establish a common ground but still no luck...
So have you any thing in your mind to have a common ground.. For example WHAT IS THE TRANSLATION OF "GLASS OF WATER" in urdu.
Same he want to know how arabic (specially) QURANIC ARABIC BE TRANSLATED.. ???
MERRY GO ROUND>>>>>>

Brother @biomat
salaamun Alaikum
I think what brother @Mughal1 is trying to say is that when you translate any text of another language or the Quran, word by word
translation will not make sense. becouse there are allegories and metaphors in all languages which translated word by word will not give
any meaning.
For instance in urdu we say:
Paani, which means water.
Paani barsa: It rained
Ankh ka paani mar jaana: Be shameless
Chhat tapakti hai, is another way of saying that water is dripping from the roof or ceiling= That it is leaking.
Tu kahan say AA tapka has a quite different meaning and nothing to do with water.
And another example:
Goli
Dhagay ki Goli
main ne Goli li.
Main ne Goli khaaee
Mujhe Goli lagi
Mere paas aik Goli hai
Badshah ki Goli
And now please translate this word by word in english and see if it makes any sense:
Paani Paani kar gaye mujhko qalandar ki yeh baat
Tu jhuka jo ghayr kay aagay na tunn tera na munn.
---------------------------------------------------

Here is an understanding of the word taair used in surah An-Naml vers 16:

Solomon was Davids heir (as the Prophet and king) He said, “O People! We have been
given a great cavalry of ready horses with best knowledge of training them, and
we have been given every blessing. This is a manifest bounty.” [21:79, 34:10.
Solomon ruled as King from 965 to 926 BC. The common misconception that
Solomon could speak to birds is denied here, as he clearly says that all his people
understood Taair. Mantiq = Knowledge = Logic = Speech and concept. Taair
= Omen = Destiny = Registration of Deeds = Fleet-footed horse = Cavalry =
Bird. 5:110, 7:131, 27:47, 27:47, 17:13, 27:16, 2:260, 6:38, 24:4. At-Taairaan =​

Those marching to war]

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Dear patriot, thank you for the explanation you actually preempted my next step, I am taking rest so that the information I have given here so far gets time to sink in peoples' minds. This is actually a new thing for some of our brethren so it will take time depending upon what they know about things themselves already. of course those who are not familiar with things that much will have problem understanding eg people who do not know maths, first need to be educated about maths before they can understand any mathematical solution. Same is true about the quran that certain knowledge is necessary before one could say I can understand the quran. The quran uses words for their meanings but meanings depend on actual things in their essence or on a particular aspect of their essence. For example, when we name our children sher khan, does it mean our child is not a human child that is why we are calling him sher? Of course not here we are just giving the child name in a particular respect ie strength and speed or ability to fight compared to its body weight.

Coming to rules, they also need proving and proofs are found in general use of things eg finding the area of a circle is just a formula pie r sq but it is derived using a real situation. Likewise when we derive a meaning of a word we must refer to real situations. In a kingdom when a person is a ruler he attends to things as such. In a circus arena the person in charge will have a similar role to a king but it will be for a different purpose. The difference in situations will decide which meanings are appropriate and which are not. In case of prophet david and solomon the historical archeological facts cannot be ignored. All these things together become a very strong case for choosing meanings of the quranic words. Just basing thing on air is not the purpose of the quran. The quran is solid in meaning like rock. The problem is not the quran or its meaning but ignorance of people and deception of mullas at will of their ruling elite. They have indoctrinated them from childhood so they are trapped by that indoctrination of fear that results in their lack of self confidence.

Hopefully if people have within them what it takes to be free of fear and favour then we will soon be out of this dangerous mindset that is responsible for where we are today. I shall be explaining more about languages particularly for their contrast with arabic and use of dictionaries but as I said it is not good idea to over load people with too much in one go or we will all go to sleep.

You have brought in alternative meanings of words but that I already explained, the trouble is our people a large number of them are free of interest in books. Those who are a very large number of them just use simple dictionaries ie word with a couple of meanings. The real useful dictionaries are the one's that explain meaning in quite a lot of detail from one language to another eg urdu into english into english. What it means is that an urdu word is given related english words as its meanings and then some explanations are given as to their various uses idioms, proverbials, symbolic, metaphorical, concrete and abstract conceptual meanings etc. The quran itself uses so call ZARBUL AMSAAL= similitudal meaning. MUTASHABIHAAT=ambiguous meanings are possible but they can be sorted out by referring them to MUHKAMAAT= factual meanings.

When we say somebody is flying in the air but the actual person is riding a horse we do not take him for a bird of feathers but just that one is a fine rider gliding through the air as if he was flying ie going fast. voh is tez rafataar se ghode par jaa raha that keh hawa se baaten kar raha tha, yaa woh ghade ke saath hawa ho gaya. Unfortunately even our educated people are very simple minded that is why mullas get away with their magic.

People say, why there is no other good translation of the quran or interpretation of the quran? They do not think before asking that is it possible to for anyone to do so in a society where people are killed right left and centre just for having a little difference of opinion. Look at people here who are bname calling each other over nothing. This is our past and our future. They do not see the contradictions in their questions. They are so innocent like babies when they raise objections. The hope is they will come to realise their mistakes themselves. I do not argument with them but put forth information and that will have serious effect on their minds. Questions raised do force people to think the answers for themselves. This is the way the quran confronts people with reasons and one day people wake up to the reality the quran is calling them to.

thanks again for your explanation, keep uip the good work. jazaakallahu khair and all the best.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Brother @biomat
salaamun Alaikum
I think what brother @Mughal1 is trying to say is that when you translate any text of another language or the Quran, word by word
translation will not make sense. becouse there are allegories and metaphors in all languages which translated word by word will not give
any meaning.
For instance in urdu we say:
Paani, which means water.
Paani barsa: It rained
Ankh ka paani mar jaana: Be shameless
Chhat tapakti hai, is another way of saying that water is dripping from the roof or ceiling= That it is leaking.
Tu kahan say AA tapka has a quite different meaning and nothing to do with water.
And another example:
Goli
Dhagay ki Goli
main ne Goli li.
Main ne Goli khaaee
Mujhe Goli lagi
Mere paas aik Goli hai
Badshah ki Goli
And now please translate this word by word in english and see if it makes any sense:
Paani Paani kar gaye mujhko qalandar ki yeh baat
Tu jhuka jo ghayr kay aagay na tunn tera na munn.
---------------------------------------------------

Here is an understanding of the word taair used in surah An-Naml vers 16:

Solomon was Davids heir (as the Prophet and king) He said, “O People! We have been
given a great cavalry of ready horses with best knowledge of training them, and
we have been given every blessing. This is a manifest bounty.” [21:79, 34:10.
Solomon ruled as King from 965 to 926 BC. The common misconception that
Solomon could speak to birds is denied here, as he clearly says that all his people
understood Taair. Mantiq = Knowledge = Logic = Speech and concept. Taair
= Omen = Destiny = Registration of Deeds = Fleet-footed horse = Cavalry =
Bird. 5:110, 7:131, 27:47, 27:47, 17:13, 27:16, 2:260, 6:38, 24:4. At-Taairaan =​

Those marching to war]

No one deny that a word can have multiple meaning
But It did not mean that any one can choose any word that suits his thinking and start translating.
the basic role of translation is to keep it close to original as explain by babadeena.
and when we are talking about Quran we must keep in mind that it is not CHOICE of someone that choose what he think is best but
To choose what it is not what you want

you talk about

Sura 27:16
using word WE and you said that
"as he clearly says that all his people understood Taair"

Then by using your logic then Allah is not one(Nauzbillah) as Allah used WE for him.

Sura 21
(105. And indeed We have written in Az-Zabur after Adh-Dhikr that My righteous servants shall inherit the land.) (106. Verily, in this there is a plain Message for people who worship Allah.) (107. And We have sent you (O Muhammad ) not but as a mercy for the `Alamin.)

So tell me does WE here means that Allah is not talking about himself alone and there are partners with him who send Muhammad pbuh and send zabur etc..(nauzbillah)?

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Here is an understanding of the word taair used in surah An-Naml vers 16:

Solomon was Davids heir (as the Prophet and king) He said, “O People! We have been
given a great cavalry of ready horses with best knowledge of training them, and
we have been given every blessing. This is a manifest bounty.” [21:79, 34:10.
Solomon ruled as King from 965 to 926 BC. The common misconception that
Solomon could speak to birds is denied here, as he clearly says that all his people
understood Taair. Mantiq = Knowledge = Logic = Speech and concept. Taair
= Omen = Destiny = Registration of Deeds = Fleet-footed horse = Cavalry =
Bird. 5:110, 7:131, 27:47, 27:47, 17:13, 27:16, 2:260, 6:38, 24:4. At-Taairaan =​

Those marching to war]

And just because of usage of WE you conclude that then
Than i wonder what will be your stance on Language of any NAWAB's who used word HUM(we) for him

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

I am taking rest so that the information I have given here so far gets time to sink in peoples' minds.

Answer the Question please

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Before I bring in rule number four related to tafsee of the quran, to which I have already given link to brother niazi I would like to explain some important point about language, arabic and the quran.

All languages have roots as words eg in english we have word legal as root word for all its variations ie legally, legality, illegal etc etc. Or in urdu take word hukam, its varions are hukoomat, haakim, ahkaam, mahkoom, hukoomati etc etc. Arabic is different because it does not use words as root=maadah but combinations of letters=murakkabat which are one single letter eg WAA, BAA, LAAM etc. Also two letters and three letters plus letters for foreign words of any combination.

Other language dictionaries are structured such that they are written in alphabetical order eg urdu or english or hindi etc etc. So the derivatives=mushtaqaat are found in their proper spelling order. Not so with arabic. In arabic dictionaries derivatives are collected under combination of letter as roots and root are written in alphabetical order. For example, take word KAAFIROON, you will not find it under its alphabetical order. What you need to do first is find out what the root letters are in this word ie KAAF, FAA and RAA are called maadah of kafiroon. Under this root all its combinations will be found listed if we have good dictionaries with their uses. This is very very important to remember because this is found only and only in arabic language, it is for this reason it suited the divine choice the best.

Before I explain further as to why Arabic is best language for the divine message first a word about dictionaries. We have two kinds of dictionaries a)simple and b)complex. They are either from one language to another or within the same language eg urdu into english or vice versa. Or urdu in to urdu and englisg in to english. Another style of dictionaries are such that they are from one language to another and then from that language to within that language eg englush into rudu then further into urdu. Or urdu into english and then further into english. In these dictionaries depending on how complex they are and how expensive they are we can get a good idea of what words mean and how they are used eg literal, symbolic, metaphorical, proverbial etc etc. It is always a good idea that if one can afford it one must have a good dictionary. A good dictionary carries more references to origin of words as well.

As I already explained that grammatical rules were thought about later the languages were already there in use. By observing how people communicated scholars put together some information as rules of grammar. The same is true about dictionaries ie language was long there before one ever knew about dictionaries. The same way people compiled dictionaries as they compiled grammar rules. As words were used so they put in dictionaries the meanings of the words and the way they were used. This should leave one in no doubt that wisdom was always at work for later ideas that people came up with. Number of words and the meaning of words have been growing with time in each and every language that exists. People have been borrowing words from each other and inventing new ones whenever they saw need for doing that. Any language that was not much use for people gradually disappeared. There is a lot of archeological evidence about existing as well as some long lost languages.

All this clearly proves evolution at work ie cause and effect rule followed by nature ie one step led to the other. It is for this reason we must accept that Allah chose to do things this way regardless we like it or not. Even we object today we were not there to be consulted by Allah. It also proves the point that Allah did not throw down to us any dictionary printed in heaven nor did we pray to Allah to send us a dictionary. Allah did not say to the dictionary be and there it was.

What is special about arabic language due to which it suited most for divine revelation? Arabic is a special language because meaning attached to its root=maadah are found in all its combinations ie derivatives= mushtaqaat . The unique advantage of such a structure of a language guarantees its survival with meanings for as long as it exists. No other language has such a unique feature. Although arabic is going through changes but the basic principle remains intact ie more roots are added to the language therefore more mushtaqaat and meanings yet despite modifications it remains original in its existence. The only problem is its survival. This is where the quran comes in to it. Because the quran is in arabic language and it is book of importance for a lot of people in the world therefore its survival is reasonably guaranteed for a long long time.

Let us take for example root ALIF, MEEM and NOON. It has various combinations or derivatives=mushtaqaat eg AMAN, MUMIN, MAAMOON, AMAANAT, AAMEEN etc etc etc. The root has meaning of peace. In all its combinations one could easily find meaning of peace. For example, a mumin works for peace, believes in peaceful existence, lives peacefully, invites others to peace, trusts others for sake of peace, is trustable for others for sake of peace and so on and so forth. So one can see peace keeps being constant in all variations of the word regardless of it being used as noun, as verb or adjective etc etc. This being the case an arabic word is open to many meanings and to choose the right one only depends on context not just the text. For example, word aman also contains the sense of belief or believe that is one get peace by believing in something as a belief. It also carries sense of confidence. By having confidence in oneself or something else one gets into state of peace.

So if we take the quran in context of a belief system ie as a religious book then we must translate it in sense of creed, dogmas and rituals on the other hand if take it as book for rule of law then we must translate it in that context. Yet other way is to take it as a combination of the both so in some places you translate the same word in one context and at another place you translate the word in the other context. However if we do that it may well cause chaos and confusion due to many contradictions that would result. This is why interpretation of the quran by the quran is important because that helps keep it free of man made contradictions. All this goes to show that no one rule on its own can guaranty correct interpretation of the quranic text.

Why we have problems with understanding of the quranic text today? The problem we have is due to interference that was caused by ruling classes by their use of priestly class amongst muslims who introduced wrong interpretations of the quran and spread them the while suppressing the proper ones. Therefore proper meanings became mixed up with wrong ones and it is matter of rediscovering them, and they can be rediscovered by quite a lot of hard work. The other problem is that after recovery of original meanings it is difficult to deindoctrinate the masses to help them see the right meanings. It is like a child got lost when baby and when rediscovered he does not like his original parents due to attachment with people who brought him up as their own child. It is a difficult task but not an impossible one. If the quran is true in its claim that Allah will preserve it till the end of human race then there is no chance that arabic or the quran will ever become extinct or for that matter the muslims and islam.

This now brings me to question about the quran ie what is unique feature in the structure of the quran?

 

[babadeena]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Now this is turning to be a useless and endless discussion without any head and tail or
objective. Anyhow here are certain points which someone may accept or reject according
to his/her own free choice:

a) Translation of anything is needed when the original script's language is not
understood by the readers. Thus in a way, the "translation" facilitate the
actual writings of a document;

b) The basic and fundamental rule in the translation is that "put the
equivalent word of translation as much nearer as possible to the
original word which is being translated".(the translation form should
and must be very and very close to the text of the document).

c) There is no doubt that in any language, a word conveys many
meanings, but this does not grant the sanction to use any
meaning, according to the translator's whims and wishes.

d) The element of "equivalency" is to keep in mind. For example, if
the text is "rabul alaymeen", so then some word should be equal
to Rab and other word must be for alaymeen.

e) The Quranic structure is already completed. It is our faith that
these are Allah(swt)'s words. Noone can change or substitute them.
Therefore it IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY that translation of Quran
should and must be nearer to Arabic Text.

f) the choice of using multiple words in translation should not alter
the originality of the basic document.
الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds,
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
So whatever the translated words for "rab" are they have to be
nearer to the context.

Let this fraud should stop that "literal meaning, hidden meaning,
metaphoric meanings and whatever", this type of game should and must not
be played with Quran.
Checked from All sources and all available translations, the word
tahir (birds) in Arabic cannot and must not be translated as cavalary, regiments,
etc, because it belies the very spirit of Quran. Anyone who has done this
unjustice should be discarded. thanks.

 

[Bret Hawk]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Actually the problem is with the corrupt and deviant mentality of some individuals which tends to obscure their faculties of rationale and clear understanding. That munafiq and zandiq Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz and the likes of him in the past and present only have one agenda in their minds and that is to twist and mutilate the meaning and message of Almighty in order to promote their own preconceived sinister agendas.

In Islamic history it happened with the Kharjiites, Mutazilites, Naziri Ismailies, Karamites and God only know with how many dajjals, liars and ostentatious corrupters of Islamic faith. Qadeyani and Pervaizi movement in the late nineteenth and twentieth century were nothing but the extensions of those fitnas which were alluded by the great Apostle of mankind pbuh during his blessed life time fourteen hundred years ago.

GA Pervaiz was the product of that era when revelation and divine faiths around the world were persistently being challenged by the groups of atheists, agnostics, anti-theistic and the so called pro-empiricists forces of the world. Therefore in Indian subcontinent Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was probably the first individual who tried to explicate and translate the verses of Quran according to the dictates and principles of the then scientific knowledge of nature. Influenced heavily under the doctrines of nature provided by the then physical scientists he appropriately rejected the notions and objects of metaphysics as described in Holy Quran in entirety.

The concepts of supernatural beings like Jinns and Angels, the possibility of supernatural events like miracles and every other principle which was not seemingly had any relevance to the modern scientific thought of materialistic world of that time were vehemently rejected by Sir Syed and the likes of other clown naturalists who succeeded him in later decades.

The fitnah of GA Pervaiz went one step further in the last century when that obnoxious termite outrightly rejected the validity and importance of Hadith literature in deriving the legal edicts of an Islamic Shariah. Perveziat though have been miserably defeated and rediculed by the enlightened vanguards of traditional Muslim scholars on many occasions in the recent past but these venomous doctrines along with their pathetic torch bearers are continuing to infect the novice and infertile minds of traditional Muslims with their poisonous and misleading conceptualization.

How low one can descend and become a mental slave of some ideologies in the name of progressiveness and modernity is manifested by the misleading groups like Pervezis. I have no doubt in my mind that tomorrow if the so called natural scientists profess this theory of Man’s creation out of the excrement of pigs or any other disgusting creatures of this world then surely these mentally inept slaves of naturalism and physical sciences would definitely try their level best to create those meanings out of the venerated text of Holy Quran in order to align the message of Quran with their masters half baked and misleading theories.

Surely shame and self esteem is far away from such scums and corrupters of Islamic faith and now I’ve started to realise and reconcile to this brutal fact of the yore that why the heretics, blasphemers and corrupters of faith used to be thrown in the blazing pits or cut in to pieces at the altars of ancient and middle ages because of the fear of the influence of their corrupt and deviant ideologies to inflict the immature and shallow minds of that age.

 

[omerkashmiri]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Welcome back Brother Bret hawk ! Good to see you back in action .

 

[biomat]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Dear [MENTION=7169]babadeena[/MENTION], [MENTION=13100]Abdul Allah[/MENTION] [MENTION=6265]Bret Hawk[/MENTION]
Assalam-o-alaikum
I have written earlier that they are here to spread FITNA under the heading of OPEN MIND & OPEN DIALOGUE.
They have not even replied 14 references given by me or bro abdul ALLAH posts regarding establishing base for correct translation of Quranic Arabic..
So it proved that they dont have any base, just want to translate according to their thinking.
They will not be able to proof HAZRAT ISSA (AS) miraculous birth, Hazrat Adam (AS) & Hawwa miraculous birth.
Mughal1 is so ignorant that he continue to post his STEPS despite of bro ABDUL ALLAH reminders.
May ALLAH give them hidayat or expose them..