Hudhuda insaan ya parinda?

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Why do not you take a breather and have time to stay away from GAP. With your sincere heart, perform two rakat nafil (as from the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and not the way GAP must have prescribed) and ask Allah to guide you, it will be better to do that in a Masjid. Then with open mind think and try to ponder on the following point. GAP is trying to prove that Prophet Muhammad PBUH was not able to explain to his companions what your GAP is able to decipher after 1400 years. Even imagining this far fetched and frivulous idealogy is quite blasphemous to me and it shakes the very foundation of our deen. No body till the day of judgement can understand the Quran and its message better than the Prophet PBUH and then the Sahaba (whose native language was Arabic). You are following a person who thinks has better wisdom than Sahab-e-Karam who are praised in Quran it self, who believes that Arabic that is not his native language is easier for him to understand than the whole arab world. Who inspite of being openly proclaimed in quran that "verily we have made it easy to understand", claims that Quran is something like a riddle or a hieroglaphic text or coded message that does not mean what it says? Why it was so difficult for Muhammad PBUH to let his companions know that Hudhud is a man, so is shaitan and so are angles? Wasn't it easier to communicate than talking about unseen, un heard, untouched, undeciphered creations? When I see people like you I recall somebody told me in my child hood that "Sab say ziada falsafi jahanum main jain gay".

This is the reason why Quran talks about Eman and momins are referred to as people who have eman. Because eman is the essence of deen that drives a person. In your case you are trying to drive the deen by your acceptable axioms. Do you beleive in Heaven or Hell? Do you believe in the day of judgement? Or you will believe in them when you will see them or you will have complete eman only on the day of judgement? I sincerely request you to think and ask Allah for forgiveness and guidance. May be try to perform an Umrah or Hajj and in the har-rumm ask Allah for the guidance.

Jannat aur jahanam ka daromadar neeyatun par hai mere bhai shamsheer. agar koi jaan boojh kar ghalti kere to maamla aur hai aur agar ghalti waise ho jaye to ghunah nahin sawaab ka kaam hai. Aadami ussi kaam main ghalti kar sakta hai jo woh karta hai. Is liye agar koi qaraan ko samajhne ki koshish kere ga to zahir baat hai ghalti ho sakti. Ab agar khudaa aadami ko aisi ghalti par pakde jo us ki niyat main nahin thi to zahir hai woh ghalti nahin hai khudaa ke nazdeek.

As for beliefs, I am speaking about things in this world that we know for sure. Hereafter and related things are accepted on basis of evidences that are verifiable ie if what the quran is talking about regarding things we know and we find nothing wrong with it then how can we doubt it about things that we do not know anything about?

If you look at gathering of quraish when the prophet brought his past life among them as evidence you will realise what I am talking about. The quran also brings prophet's life as evidence to prove that it is from God.

The quran tells us that if it was from other than Allah then we would have found plenty of contradiction and absurdities in it. So quran is using logic and philosophical arguments as well as natural processes and phenomena to prove its divine origin. Not only that but there are verses challenging opponents to bring their proofs and prove their claims against the quran.

No where the quran asks people to just accept it word of God because the quran says it or the prophet says or the holy men say so.

All this forces us to give importance to claims and evidences. Logic, rationality and philosophy. In short the quran does not like ignorant people instead it wants people to get real and knowledgeble.

regards and all the best.

 

[babadeena]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

[MENTION=13412]Mughal1[/MENTION],
In my previous post, I have given almost all English translations available. Now
where do we stand about Hud Hud?

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

@ Mughal1,
Please give the link of GA Parvez English translation.
and on what basis He thinks that Hud Hud is human.?

http://www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/BA_Parwez.htm

 

[shamsheer]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

No where the quran asks people to just accept it word of God because the quran says it or the prophet says or the holy men say so.

All this forces us to give importance to claims and evidences. Logic, rationality and philosophy. In short the quran does not like ignorant people instead it wants people to get real and knowledgeble.

regards and all the best.

Quran is difficult to understand for two kind of people, one is ignorant and one is arrogant. You have failed to provide a single evidence for your claims and failed to able to refute or provide tiny bit of answer to any of our questions based on rational and logic. It is up to you to decide what category you fall in.

 

[niazi]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

well murg ki aik tanng ki tarah mugal1 bhai kharay hain,just like abu jahl not accepting truth.well i dont need to give you futher proves as brother biomat and raz are doing great job.

 

[babadeena]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

20. (One day, while on the march, Solomon asked for a section of cavalry
who at that time were not present there.) When they arrived he asked them,
"Where is your chief Hud-Hud? Has he gone somewhere for a while or
is he absent from his duty?

@Mughal1 ,
Thanks for giving the link. I have taken the translation of verse 20 from your
preferred author/translator link and pasted it above. Dear, THIS IS TOTAL MURDER
OF QURAN, it is not translation, rather it is murder. You will agree that the simple
and basic rule in translation is to keep the "translated version" as much near as
possible to the original words. Now you please enlighten us that from where
the words highlighted BOLD have been taken and what are their equivalent words
in Arabic.

وَتَفَقَّدَ الطَّيْرَ فَقَالَ مَا لِيَ لَا أَرَى الْهُدْهُدَ أَمْ كَانَ مِنَ الْغَائِبِينَ
I can understand your love and liking for Late Parvez, but his translation (judged on the basis of this verse) is mischevious, fraudulent and mis-leading. If you wish, we can discuss word by word of the above verse's translation. Dear this is not convincing in any way.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Dear Abdul Allah, please read your questions a few times yourself and see if you can rephrase them because as they are they do not make much sense to me. If you are trying to isolate the quran from the world and vice versa then you would be wrong. As for know and realistic, they are one and the same thing if you mean know as knowledge not information. It is because you know what you know therefore you know it is real. The problem is with that which we do not know and we form opinions about it not being sure one way or the other. Hope this helps you to see why your questions are confusing.

If you could express your point clearly than of course I can try and answer your question accordingly.

regards and all the best.

ok let me try once again.

Which one is correct approach.

1) Translating and interpreting Quran according to/under the light of what we know about the creation/behavior/activities of the world at this time.
2) Trying to know and explore the world under the light of Quran.

and if you read with bit care you will realize that no i am not separating Quran from world

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Hope you are not bundling me with them as well, dear Abdul Allah?

if you are talking about bundling with Ahmadis
then

So far no

 

[Raaz]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

jis ko Allah hi bhatka de , us ko koi bhi rah e rast per nahi laa sakta.

Woh HUd Hud ko insan hi khe ga. aur insanon ko janwar.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

This is where I find the problem is because people are not aware of various meanings of words and their uses. All languages use same word for different meanings as well as different words to give same meanings. This is very very important point. Word to word translations are useless because they make no sense see translation by shah abdul qaadir sb and shah rafi uddeen sb and various others.

For you people from Arabic origin who are helping to translate Quran from past 1400 did not know how to translate Quran
but some one name Ghulam Ahmad pervaiz who born in 1900 in non Arabic environment know how to correctly translate Quran.???


Strange

Note: Translating Quran is not a simple tranlsation. that you choose word that you want to choose.

 

[Raaz]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

I would support your sentiments dear Raaz but I have not come across better scholars than g a parwez. A giant of man in my time. All due to people like sir seyyid, iqbal and jinnah. Actually we all judge based upon our current state of our own knowledge but good thing is to keep learning and never think anything is concrete till you really have something that is really concrete.

I suggest that people learn arabic and use basic dictionaries from one language to another but also use same language dictionaries that emphasis uses of words in various ways. This is where I find the problem is because people are not aware of various meanings of words and their uses. All languages use same word for different meanings as well as different words to give same meanings. This is very very important point. Word to word translations are useless because they make no sense see translation by shah abdul qaadir sb and shah rafi uddeen sb and various others.

The rendering of words for words does not emphasis the aspects in words that are meant in the verses in their prper contexts. This is the reason we are having this very discussion because people are not familiar about other uses of words so they feel compelled to keep using the same even though they give rise to wrong sense.

Even word for word translation would need proper use of words and that would again depend on proper understanding of the quranic text before one could put the right word in place of word. So there is no such thing as proper translation rather the translation is also interpretation. In fact even arabs will have to interpret the quranic text when it comes to making sense of it.

regards and all the best.

جا یار معاف کر ، تیری مہربانی
دنیا میں بہت لوگ پاگل بھی ہوتے ہیں
تم ایک جانور کو انسان بنا سکتے ہو تو الله تعالیٰ بھی پاگل انسان کو بندر بنا سکتا ہے

اس آیت کو سچ ہوتا دیکھ لیا ، شکر ہے الله کا ​

 

[biomat]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Dear Mughal1
Assalam-o-alaikum
I am quoting your sentences
" Moreover, I am challenging these mullas right here to prove me wrong about it. Just talking and talking more is not the answer. It is better to learn what you do not know than start talking nonsense.

I do not follow anyone but the quran and the authentic ahadith and support anyone on any opinion anyone has that I think is appropriate.

It is mulla slaves who cannot imagine life beyond mullas that are showing their flying colours.

I am not asking anyone to accept my opinion blindly, who am I to do that? I am sharing my view on issues and people are free to share theirs. However the problem with mulla slaves is that they cannot accept that anyone should express their opinion at all, particularly if it exposes them and their mullas.

They are not here to exchange views but to fight to impose their views. Regardless it is not their muhalla masjid where they beat each other up but an open forum for sensible people who wish to learn from each other."
========================
First let me tell you that none here (babadeena, raaz, me, abdul ALLAH etc) are qualified AALIM (correct me if i am wrong)..
So the way you behaved in this post & others clearly shows your similar behaviour as Qadiyanis (thats what i pointed out)..
We are v tiny students of Islam & alhumdulillah we all are firm on this point that HUD HUD was bird (same as ABABEEL)..
I have posted 14 references but you keep posting link of GAP site similar to Qadiyanis posting their www.ahmedi.#@!@#!@@#$# etc etc.
They dont debate when confronted with proofs or logic.
I have nearly 50 references about JINN as another creation of ALLAH created long before HUMANS (INS) & SHAITAN (Iblees) was most wise & devoted JINN to ALLAH, thats why he was amongst ANGELS in HEAVEN..
As after nearly 151 posts you are on same ground without showing us the GRAMMER or LOGICAL meaning of AL-TAIR then it will be useless exercise to discuss the topic of JINN.
===========
Second once you said that you believe on authentic hadeeths, on the other hand you want to solve every thing from Quran (according to your own meaning), i can quote your posts on other threads in which you are rejecting HADITHS..
============================================================
Third You want to interpret QURAN according to your own thinking & mindset, then you continue this..
Why you follow 1900 GAP translations, why not you or your new MASTER or GAP GROUP BEARDLESS MULLAH launch 2011 LATEST TRANSLATION OF QURAN according to LATEST TECH ADVANCEMENT.
As ABABEEL MAY BE STEALTH FIGHTER SQUADRON ARMED WITH NUCLEAR OR ATOMIC WEAPONS OR DEPLETED URANIUM BOMBS, which they bombarded on attacking army on KAABA. Thats why they become "KHAYA HUA BHUSS" (in urdu)..
==================
WORD TO WORD TRANSLATION OR TAFSEER are two different things.. You can disagree on TAFASEERs but twisting MEANING OF WORDS is crime, which only ALLAH will reward you & GAP like people.

=====================
Jaza-k-ALLAH

 

[biomat]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12226.110;wap2
Read here guys, same argument & counter reply.
May ALLAH give them hidayat.

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Dear brothers in islam and humanity, thank you all for your kind participation in this discussion. For this discussion to proceed sensibly it is necessary that we all put forth a starting point because radom fight picking is nothing but a confusion which benefits none of us.

Our discussion is not for picking fights but to find out the truth regarding points wherein we may differ.

The issue is proper understanding of the quranic text eg words, phrases, sentences, verses, surahs, and the entire quran. The question is, what is the best way to understand the quran?

My opinion is that to understand the quran the best approach is to base ourselves upon firm foundation that cannot be shaken. It is like building a wall and putting one brick on top of the other that fits properly and becomes firm upon the brick that is underneath it. Here we are talking about bricks of reason.


1)The first firm brick is this world. It is our life time experience whereby we trust or distrust things. For example, each time we say anything or do anything we bring to our mind the past and then in light of that we deal with current situation by taking appropriate steps or actions.

As babies we monitor who is doing us good and who is hurtful and accordingly we choose people with whom we are comfortable or uncomfortable. We move towards those whom we trust and move away from those whom we do not trust. As we grow we become more and more aware of what hurts us and what gives us support and on that basis we gradually become fearful of things or happy about things. In the beginning we are afraid of getting out of laps of our mothers but gradually as we realise we can take a step away from our mothers we start testing new avenues and explore newer and newer environments and so one day we are able to go far away places. All this happens because as we grow physically so we grow mentally.

The question is, what makes us grow mentally? Collection of information and putting it together according to laws of wisdom and after making sense of things our fear is gone. In other words we create for ourselves newer and newer comfort zones which we try and extent with time as the need arises.

It all comes down to the fact that we never give up on learning by way of research and exploration of the world all around us. We have only a brain, five senses and mechanical body to use and create ways and means to interact in our environment by means of our inventions which help us extent our senses and bodies. If we cannot see something we look at reasons why we cannot see it then we start looking for ways to overcome that and that is how we end up inventing something.

All we are doing all the time is extending our senses or capabilities of our senses and our mechanical bodies. This is how came about concave and convex lenses or magnifying glasses whereby we can see far away things that we could not see before as well as very small things that we could not see before. Likewise we have been extending our hearing capability. So we ended up extending our ability to talk to people far away.

Not only that but we have invented things like flying machines so that we could move to places we want to in very short time.

Nowhere we just jumped into abyss hoping for the best nor in the dark just for the fun of it.

This should prove to all of us that this is very solid foundation because it is experience of each and everyone of us. You know as well as I that if put our hands in the fire we will get burnt. We do not leave it to our make belief that if we just jumped out of sky saying Allahu akbar things will be ok. Or if we jumped into the fire it will not burn us. All this because of our life time experience.

In our experience we do not see anything happening in the nature without natural causes and effects. This is why when somethings happen by accident we investigate them on basis of our life time experience looking for natural causes always. Even if our bike tyre is punctured we know automatically that it was something on the road that did this. In short we always know that something happened because something physical made it happen.

Only at times when do not have any natural explanation for some happening that we look for unnatural explanations. When we attribute events to unnatural sources, we never question our wisdom for doing that. The question is, why not? After all in our whole life experience we never saw them, we do not know anything about them we just invent a name and throw everything to it from all directions. Somehow this lie of ours to ourselves gives us the comfort that we have dome all we could.

Don't worry this is just fine because when we do not know and cannot know something because we are not yet capable of finding out about it. The problem is that if we set our ceiling at that then it becomes a problem because once we limit ourselves by sky then we cannot go beyond that. It is like we become negative O no, we cannot do this. On the contrary some one somewhere else takes the brave step forward telling us sky is not the limit. There is a whole another universe beyond sky.

This shows that people who set themselves wrong limits lose out and those who take brave steps do find ways and means to go beyond. It is all a matter of self confidence.

In a society where mothers keep their babies frightened they end up with mental problems as they grow because many people become limited by unreal fears. On the contrary in societies where mothers show their kids to be courageous those kids become more confident and are better able to tackle life problems.

So people with negative mentality cannot be trusted because they are like frightened kids who have never grown up. They cannot be trusted not because they are necessarily deceivers but because they know not any better and they never bothered finding out things out of fears. So they do not have developed minds that could reason things comfortably and therefore their opinions are very limited within limits of their own minds.

On the contrary people who have not limited themselves can be trusted with their reasoning not because what they say is necessarily right but even if they are wrong their out look on life is realistic not frightened lacking confidence.

These people truly know their limits and potentials whereas the other party does not.

It is from now on matter of using what you know for benefit of others or being selfish and domineering. This is where human problems start because people become divided into groups on basis of their self interests.

In order to get what one wants people use their knowledge to fool others. The cleverer you are easier it is for you to fool people who are not as clever as you are. Newer and newer ways and means are used by people to make fool of each other in order to get what they want.

Fear of danger and fear of unknown is very strong weapon so people can control others mentally thereby. There are only two way you can control others by frightening them into submission or by enticing them with comfort and enjoyment things.

This is why these two things must never be taken lightly.

As people divide on basis of self interests the wars begin and the first casualty in this war is truth. People do not like to be told they are robbers, oppressors, suppressors, cruel, murderers etc so they try to deceive people by telling each other they are fighting for a good cause. This is how they turn innocent born humans in to worse than animals by indoctrination, programing, brainwashing or conditioning etc.

This deception works wonders that is why it is used so much.

It creates a huge problem for humanity that is not interested in self interest but in morally justifiable self interest. The problem for such people is how to de-indoctrinate these people. It is easier to educate properly a new born but once a person is put on wrong ladder then getting him down and reprogramming him becomes a lot harder because to recreate that environment is no longer possible ie you cannot be turned into a baby once more and put on the right ladder. So we can only work on whatever we have and only as much as we can.

Once we accept that real world is fundamental foundation upon which we must stand or we have no foundation either discussion moves to next step are first we work out what else could be used as common ground at least as good as the world. In my opinion there is no other foundation than this world as basis. Word earth means base upon which we stand.

More later.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

More later.

Please No More

Just answer my simple question with simple one or two lines please
just choose your option

 

[biomat]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Ha ha ha. Bro Abdul ALLAH
Assalam-o-alaikum
Be ready for another "CHANA" sermon from Mughal1..
All our previous exercises go down the drain.. Now you are to POINT ONE , THE BEGINNING..
Same happened when we (me, babadeena, knowledgeseeker, raaz, wadaich) were debating with mrbaig..
After so many pages & posts, mrbaig took us to starting point... Same GA style..

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Please No More

Just answer my simple question with simple one or two lines please
just choose your option

Dear brother Abdul Allah, your question I agree is simple but it has significance for entire ummah, it is therefore necessary to show why I have different opinion from you people. This is not an issue of a bird or jinn but of what islam exactly is according to the quran and authentic ahadith. Because as I understand islam from the quran and the hadith it is as clear as day light yet people are so confused about it that they are divided into countless number of sects. This should ring alarm bells for any muslim that someone has twisted islam for whatever reason. That is why we are fighting against each other senselessly because we give no importance to information, reason and knowledge.

Please do not think that I have any personal score to settle with anyone, not at all but I am interested in education of ourselves and our people and mankind as a whole. If our claim is that the quran is word of Allah then there has to be a clear logical proof for that. Now if that proof is there then why are we ourselves not accepting it and misleading the rest of the world as well?

Not only that we are seriously damaging cause of islam due to our ignorance and stubbornness but also ourselves as well if we look around as to what is happening to us as a people.

So hopefully this discussion will help all of us through help of each other to come out at the other end with better understanding and more confident about the quran and islam and be able to talk to anyone regardless whatever one believes or does not believe.

so please excuse me if I am not directly saying yes or not to your questions at the moment, hopefully you will all get answers to your questions all by yourselves in the end.

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Ha ha ha. Bro Abdul ALLAH
Assalam-o-alaikum
Be ready for another "CHANA" sermon from Mughal1..
All our previous exercises go down the drain.. Now you are to POINT ONE , THE BEGINNING..
Same happened when we (me, babadeena, knowledgeseeker, raaz, wadaich) were debating with mrbaig..
After so many pages & posts, mrbaig took us to starting point... Same GA style..

Dear biomat, please don't judge things till we are through. It will be better instead if you could lay down your criterion for truth of your interpretation of the quran. I have placed the first brick please feel free to to disagree and explain what you will use instead and why?

You are talking about arabic grammar could you please help me by educating me about it as to how it works. Please start from difference in arabic and the rest of world languages. There is one very significant fundamental difference at least but please be my guest in identifying more.

meanwhile regards and all the best.

regards and all the best.

 

[Abdul Allah]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

so please excuse me if I am not directly saying yes or not to your questions at the moment, hopefully you will all get answers to your questions all by yourselves in the end.

regards and all the best.

First answer the question and then you can keep explaining what is the reason of your choice

So please first you answer the question

 

[Mughal1]

Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?

Rule number 2) It is very important that we realise that information is absolutely necessary about the case we are supposed to be judging or we have no case to answer. Not only that but we must also be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that information we have is reasonably true and complete otherwise judgement will be based upon incomplete information or even false information therefore the judgment will be true but case would be false. The rules of wisdom must be accepted in their entirety before we could judge any case using them other wise we have a case but nothing to judge it by.

In short we have factual world experience as basis and rules of judgement to judge each and every claim thereby. All courts in the world regardless local, provincial, national or international work by same rules of judgement. Another proof that that is the only way to sort out things where we may differ. This is the wisdom of entire human race regardless of gender, race, creed, geography or colour etc etc.

We always use facts and wisdom to decide matters not our make beliefs. No body is given free ride in any court of law for claiming things beyond realities of this world.

This is my 2nd brick on top of the one I laid before. Pleae make sure that when you participate in discussion you are fully aware of significance of these rules. These are not my personal made rules. if you think they are please feel free to disagree but do let me know what is your alternative.

Unless we agree on all this there is no sensible discussion possible.

As for claim, evidence, proof and proving please see on the following link, just in case you are not aware of what it is and how it works.

It is so important to know these things that without them we will be wasting time not learning much sense sensibly.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...-amp-tribalism&p=290398&viewfull=1#post290398