Does the conscious arise from a quantum process.

[Star Gazer]

I have a theory about Kiyamat. A topic which I am sure all of us think about at some point in time.

I have believed for some time that Kiyamat will NOT happen UNTIL all of the Koran is proved scientifically and I believe that this is possible and will happen.

Allah will not Extinguish His creation until He has provided us with all the information that any one could need to believe in HIS being the creator. Simplistic? perhaps, but a theory that resonates with my understanding of religion.

I think this will help us to understand that science will prove all that Allah has stated in Koran and it is not just a philosophical imaginations for a way of life only. It is the Only Truth.

I came across a discussion about Consciousness and the theory to explain it's existence, where and how it is purported to exists, and possibly how it works in our brains. There are so many other interesting little discrete concepts which are touched upon in this discussion.

Consciousness is not a quantifiable faculty so far, but we could be nearer today than ever before. The complexity of this concept could help us understand the mind.

Very interesting. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did.

http://io9.com/does-consciousness-arise-from-quantum-processes-in-the-1308844613

 

[Star Gazer]

If you go to the website there is an vdo discussion which is really interesting.

 

[Aleph]

Yes, this has always been an interesting concept. In fact, consciousness and intellect are two things that cannot be explained in a Darwinian manner. So, while Darwinian evolution can sound reasonable in terms of our outward existence, the esoteric nature of the human (intellect, conscious etc) cannot be proven through such models. Where and how conscious first came about is not known.

Also, I see a small problem in your statement that Qiyamah will not arise until ALL of the Qur'an is proven scientifically. "All" is a very strong word here. While I can appreciate what you meant generally, there is a reason why "All" would not be the right word here. For example, the Qur'an itself sets out to distinguish some of its verses as "scientifically unsound" (if I may use this phrase). There is the mention of the ghayb and the mutashabihaat - both of which are subjects OUTSIDE of the realm of science. How does one SCIENTIFICALLY prove the "Lawh Al-Mahfuz" (The Preserved Tablet) or the "Kursi" or "Arsh" of Allah (SWT)? Furthermore, the Qur'an categorically states that witnessing Allah (SWT) from the known senses of man is IMPOSSIBLE in this world.

There is also the little syllological issue of Allah's Limitless Being. For something that is Infinite, it follows that there must be Infinite ways to prove His Existence. Therefore, it will take an infinite period to "scientifically prove" (if it is conceded) the Qur'an and therefore Qiyamah is never going to come?

Just throwing it out there for you to consider.

If you go to the website there is an vdo discussion which is really interesting.

 

[Sadia Hashmi]

Yes, this has always been an interesting concept. In fact, consciousness and intellect are two things that cannot be explained in a Darwinian manner. So, while Darwinian evolution can sound reasonable in terms of our outward existence, the esoteric nature of the human (intellect, conscious etc) cannot be proven through such models. Where and how conscious first came about is not known.

Also, I see a small problem in your statement that Qiyamah will not arise until ALL of the Qur'an is proven scientifically. "All" is a very strong word here. While I can appreciate what you meant generally, there is a reason why "All" would not be the right word here. For example, the Qur'an itself sets out to distinguish some of its verses as "scientifically unsound" (if I may use this phrase). There is the mention of the ghayb and the mutashabihaat - both of which are subjects OUTSIDE of the realm of science. How does one SCIENTIFICALLY prove the "Lawh Al-Mahfuz" (The Preserved Tablet) or the "Kursi" or "Arsh" of Allah (SWT)? Furthermore, the Qur'an categorically states that witnessing Allah (SWT) from the known senses of man is IMPOSSIBLE in this world.

There is also the little syllological issue of Allah's Limitless Being. For something that is Infinite, it follows that there must be Infinite ways to prove His Existence. Therefore, it will take an infinite period to "scientifically prove" (if it is conceded) the Qur'an and therefore Qiyamah is never going to come?

Just throwing it out there for you to consider.

though i agree with most of ur point but wen someone tries to find out the meaning of ghayab and mustashbihaat then mullah mentality dont accept it. QURAN is clear but we need to ponder over it, these are inside the realm of science.

 

[Aleph]

Ghayb is all right, but the mutashabihaat with respect to the Zaat of Allah (SWT) is something that one cannot conjecture on because it just leads to misguidance. There are a few ways to interpret such mutashabihaat (tafwidh, ithbaat, ta'wil etc). I won't get into the details, but the SAFEST position is tafwidh. In English terms that means "relegating/consigning the meaning [to Allah Alone]".

For example, when Allah (SWT) says that "Both His Hands are Right Hands and both are Khayr" then it is best to simply accept the verse as it was revealed and just leave the matter to Allah (SWT) on its exact meaning. Allah (SWT) Himself says in the Qur'an (3:7) that those of His Verses that are the mutashabihaat are only conjectured by those in whose hearts there is a disease.

though i agree with most of ur point but wen someone tries to find out the meaning of ghayab and mustashbihaat then mullah mentality dont accept it. QURAN is clear but we need to ponder over it, these are inside the realm of science.

 

[CanPak2]

I read somewhere, that qayamat us waqt tak qaeem nahee ho gi jab tak bani adam sub kuchh jaan nahee lay ga, yani mutliq ilm hasal kar lay gaa. I think cloning humans is one step in that direction and now this conscious thing is another.

 

[bluebee]

I think all of us discussing about "Al-Sa'at", the hour, not the Qyamat i.e. the day of judgement, the resurrection, which like "the hour| God knows when it will occur after the collapse of life on the planet.

I don't think there is any such pre-condition of it to happen like scientific validity of all the Quranic verses. Perhaps Quran itself invites to look into the havens and earth and the creation of universe & man himself but just to have a firm belief that all this was not created in vain & it has a Creator behind this scheme with a purpose i.e. if He can bring the life from nothing then it's an easy matter for him to resurrect the deceased ones so that they can be judged based on their actions they commit using their conscious.

 

[Exiled-Pakistani]

I see a good discussion on this forum. My two cents: Life (Human or otherwise) has absolutely no purpose. We can self-aggrandize as much as we can but at the end of the day logic will bring you back to the conclusion that life has no meaning. It does not matter whether you take religious perspective, scientific perspective, or mystic perspective, at the end of the day we all amount to zero.

 

[Star Gazer]

Yes, this has always been an interesting concept. In fact, consciousness and intellect are two things that cannot be explained in a Darwinian manner. So, while Darwinian evolution can sound reasonable in terms of our outward existence, the esoteric nature of the human (intellect, conscious etc) cannot be proven through such models. Where and how conscious first came about is not known.

Also, I see a small problem in your statement that Qiyamah will not arise until ALL of the Qur'an is proven scientifically. "All" is a very strong word here. While I can appreciate what you meant generally, there is a reason why "All" would not be the right word here. For example, the Qur'an itself sets out to distinguish some of its verses as "scientifically unsound" (if I may use this phrase). There is the mention of the ghayb and the mutashabihaat - both of which are subjects OUTSIDE of the realm of science. How does one SCIENTIFICALLY prove the "Lawh Al-Mahfuz" (The Preserved Tablet) or the "Kursi" or "Arsh" of Allah (SWT)? Furthermore, the Qur'an categorically states that witnessing Allah (SWT) from the known senses of man is IMPOSSIBLE in this world.

There is also the little syllological issue of Allah's Limitless Being. For something that is Infinite, it follows that there must be Infinite ways to prove His Existence. Therefore, it will take an infinite period to "scientifically prove" (if it is conceded) the Qur'an and therefore Qiyamah is never going to come?

Just throwing it out there for you to consider.

Thank you I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I guess I got a little exited and generalized the concept but as you have astutely noted my thought was to bring forth the idea that concepts once considered beyond being quantifiable are not so more even in the scientific community. Of course Allah has created this world in a manner that it provides relevance, and explanation for many concepts in many religions and all seem to be happy with their thoughts, and that is the test.yet questions not having answers can themselves be indicators of Allah. Just as you mentioned that Allah can not be witnessed through our known senses, so what about the hitherto unknown/unappreciated senses.?
I think it follows that once we are able to prove the scientifically provable, concrete or material facts to the extent that they are mentioned in the Koran, will leave us/humans, with no choice but to accept that there is a Higher Power and He alone is the creator of all life in any form.
The fact that there are concepts alluded to in Koran, which are not possible to be proved by current scientific techniques despite having the rest come true is a pointer in the direction that there is a Higher Power at least in my thinking.

 

[Star Gazer]

I see a good discussion on this forum. My two cents: Life (Human or otherwise) has absolutely no purpose. We can self-aggrandize as much as we can but at the end of the day logic will bring you back to the conclusion that life has no meaning. It does not matter whether you take religious perspective, scientific perspective, or mystic perspective, at the end of the day we all amount to zero.

That is the crux of the belief.Do we all amount to zero at the end of the day? I don't think so. Consider the fact that humans are the only life form who have the diversity of being born into remarkably different situations, no other life form has this diversity in their birthing environment and thus chances of a better life. Think about it why is it so? I believe because Islam is an equalizer in terms of the faculties,talents and means that Allah decides to give us and then tests us within those parameters. If some one is rich the bar set for them is harder because they had it easier than those who are poor or less fortunate, just as an example.

 

[patriot]

41:53 Soon will We show them our Signs in the horizons and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this,THE QURAN, is the Truth. .

 

[Exiled-Pakistani]

aah, "the test". Test to prove what? Is our Creator putting us to test as to see that the product that He has been churning out of an assembly line and the same product that he pre-programs genetically, can perform according to the program or not? Gosh, doesn't this make the whole thing even more pathetic?

Bhai, there is absolutely no reason for us to exist.

That is the crux of the belief.Do we all amount to zero at the end of the day? I don't think so. Consider the fact that humans are the only life form who have the diversity of being born into remarkably different situations, no other life form has this diversity in their birthing environment and thus chances of a better life. Think about it why is it so? I believe because Islam is an equalizer in terms of the faculties,talents and means that Allah decides to give us and then tests us within those parameters. If some one is rich the bar set for them is harder because they had it easier than those who are poor or less fortunate, just as an example.

 

[Star Gazer]

41:53 Soon will We show them our Signs in the horizons and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this,THE QURAN, is the Truth. .

I think those people at the helm of affairs who know the truth but hide from people are the one's who need to fear the most. For example I am 100% sure these bankers and financial institutions know that without sood banking is possible and beneficial for all But they will not take steps to implement or even talk about it because it hurts their coffers full of moneys.
Just as the worldwide propaganda to paint Muslims and Sharia as something tyrannical because it makes them equal to a common man.

 

[Shehzad_Ulhaq]

I see a good discussion on this forum. My two cents: Life (Human or otherwise) has absolutely no purpose. We can self-aggrandize as much as we can but at the end of the day logic will bring you back to the conclusion that life has no meaning. It does not matter whether you take religious perspective, scientific perspective, or mystic perspective, at the end of the day we all amount to zero.

I agree with you with the perspective if you take yourself being only in the context of being 'matter'. There is a huge debate out there whether the 'matter' does exist or no and beside that it gives another discussion of 'existence of parallel universes'.
There comes a Hadees Sharif in my mind which says, Mafhoom" The Reality of this Duniya is not even equivalent to a Mosquito,s wing"
And to my thinking it's only possible when the matter does not exist, So if we put ourselves and our self being in the form of matter,then of course we are equivalent to 0 but then only thing which remains to be judged is 'Ones Intensions'.
Here comes another Hadees Sharif in my mind which says Mafhoom' A faithful,s intention is more valued then his/her actions.

 

[Star Gazer]

aah, "the test". Test to prove what? Is our Creator putting us to test as to see that the product that He has been churning out of an assembly line and the same product that he pre-programs genetically, can perform according to the program or not? Gosh, doesn't this make the whole thing even more pathetic?

Bhai, there is absolutely no reason for us to exist.

I think you are feeling sad or not understanding the issue.
if you believe that we are 0/nothing then there should not be a debate in your mind about anything. Live your life as best as you can. There is no reason for laws or ethics because then what is the purpose of following any of those? Following them only takes pleasure away. There is something in us which tells us instinctively about right and wrong, good and bad what is that?

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

I see a good discussion on this forum. My two cents: Life (Human or otherwise) has absolutely no purpose. We can self-aggrandize as much as we can but at the end of the day logic will bring you back to the conclusion that life has no meaning. It does not matter whether you take religious perspective, scientific perspective, or mystic perspective, at the end of the day we all amount to zero.

What about soul?

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

If you go to the website there is an vdo discussion which is really interesting.

Your 'all' is relative to ur time, space and understanding, thus, quite subjective.

Further, r u referring to 'all' vis-a-vis the internal (feeling/consciousness) or the external world (physical entities and processes going on in our environment/universe) or is this 'all' in relation to the product of the interaction of the two worlds?

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

Thank you I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I guess I got a little exited and generalized the concept but as you have astutely noted my thought was to bring forth the idea that concepts once considered beyond being quantifiable are not so more even in the scientific community. Of course Allah has created this world in a manner that it provides relevance, and explanation for many concepts in many religions and all seem to be happy with their thoughts, and that is the test.yet questions not having answers can themselves be indicators of Allah. Just as you mentioned that Allah can not be witnessed through our known senses, so what about the hitherto unknown/unappreciated senses.?
I think it follows that once we are able to prove the scientifically provable, concrete or material facts to the extent that they are mentioned in the Koran, will leave us/humans, with no choice but to accept that there is a Higher Power and He alone is the creator of all life in any form.
The fact that there are concepts alluded to in Koran, which are not possible to be proved by current scientific techniques despite having the rest come true is a pointer in the direction that there is a Higher Power at least in my thinking.

Is there a problem/difficulty in accepting the existence of the Higher Power now? If yes, then there would always be some sort of uncertainty. This is the beauty and test of our creation.

Acceptance has nothing to do with the availability of scientific evidence. Human's or our natural skepticism about our state of art and knowledge would always be one step ahead of its actual/acquired/time-specific state. It is a function of our willingness/inclination to believe or otherwise.

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

though i agree with most of ur point but wen someone tries to find out the meaning of ghayab and mustashbihaat then mullah mentality dont accept it. QURAN is clear but we need to ponder over it, these are inside the realm of science.

Isn't it contradiction in term? Sometime, the language we use and the images the words used or spoken conjure in our mind are also a big problem.

 

[jason]

Do we believe in infinity?.Do our experience and observation tells that there is something by the name of infinity?No we see that every event and everything has an end and nothing is infinite.This Universe is not infinite and it ends somewhere.