Bride & Groom are ready but not a Secular State!!!

[Vitamin_C]

Dear vitamin c, stop looking at God as a human baby. The quran is perfect as it is for the purpose it is revealed. All you need to do is learn how to make proper sense of it. If you don't you will remain confused for as long as you do not. However it is all up to you.


regards and all the best.

I am not confused, if I have to read a book a certain way, to me that's a badly written book.

A good writer will write a book so clearly that anyone who reads it will understand the message.

Anyway I have researched on my side to the best of my abilities to understand it in context with hadith and Prophet's biography. I do not understand the background story of all the Chapters but I know the stories behind the important ones.

To me there is no confusion, its clear that its work of a man who had very limited literary skills. It contains no information that was not already known by man. It contains plagiarisms of Greek medicine (even the mistakes of Greek medicine).

Many chapters are wasted in repeating things (another hallmark of badwriting) and many more chapters are wasted in trying to rescue Muhammad's sex life, justifying his marriage to his adopted son Zaid's wife, and his affair with Hafsa's slave girl.

The other half of the book talks about how God will torture you for eternity and roast you alive and when your skin burns off it becomes alive again and burns again - again imaginations of a very twisted mind very typical of Savage Arabs who were fond of human sacrifice and torturing each other in the most hideous ways imaginable. Basically using fear and emotional blackmailing to get you to believe the book rather than using logic and reason

While thousands of Children are dying in Africa from diseases and wars God couldn't find a better problem to talk about than Muhammad's right to have sex with Hafsa's slave girl and how she angered Allah by telling this secret to Aisha and his other wives.

Its an obvious fraud by a man who only came to spoil, enjoy life with dozens of women and now you are here trying to break your head trying to understand this book which is a mess. Save me the troubles.

Video below explains how Muhammad manipulated women using verses in Quran.

 

[Mughal1]

Dear Mughal,
Thank you for having a decent conversation as it it certainly not a norm on this forum atleast. The Jewish view of god claims he is very much that you have said, BUT they do believe in a Messiah that comes from the eternity (means he is out of realm of time) The very nature of god is complex to comprehend even in old testament. Just to quote 1 passage, read from old testament book (Micah chapter 5 verse 2 - 3) The Christians believe that Messiah to be Jesus, who possess the same nature of God and share the same being. By your standard of the Quranic text, this is solely based on the testimony of one person "Muhammad - The prophet of islam" . The Quran is his prove and HIS prove of being a prophet is Quran. This is a circular reasoning and does not lead anywhere. It is very well documented on how there are several qurans in the world even right now. Hafz edition being the one standardize in 1924 and largely used in Islamic world. In short even quran doesn't fit the same criteria you have laid, It is the book revealed by a man, who never talked to his god face to face and his followers thought of him being divine and copied it much much later in form of a book shattering the tradition of Hafiz e quran.

Dear username, as I said before, the holy bible is not a revealed word of God. It is a collection of books written by various authors over a long period of time. Therefore on its own it is not an authority. No human work is an authority on its own till it has backing of revealed word of God, which in this era is only and only the quran.

To me it makes absolutely no sense at all that we humans attribute to God as his word the books which are written by people about God. The books themselves do not even claim to be so. The truth is people can never know mind of God all by themselves. Only God himself could tell people in his own words what they needed to know about God, his plan and purpose for creation of mankind and all the rest of things that go with it.

This is why the quran is a unique book which clearly stands out in this regard. The quran is a stand alone book which works as the criterion for testing all other sources of information.

However to use the quran as the criterion human beings first must understand it properly by putting its verses together properly in its own proper context purposefully otherwise the quran cannot be used as the criterion. This is why first human mind must discover the quran as it ought to be and then the quran is to be taken as the benchmark or standard to go by.

You are right concerning the quran that it is based upon claim of muhammad the final messenger of God but it is not muhammad whose claim validates the quran. Instead it is the quran that validates messenger-ship of Muhammad. How the quran does that? I have explained it for you.

As for all the other claims you have stated about the quran, they have no basis at all so they cannot invalidate the quran. If you will read the very first link for information on that you will see what I mean. What we have today as the quran is the original quran. This is why if you have time please read the information provided in the very first link at least. Hopefully it will help you see where I am coming from and why I am talking the way I do. The only book that claims to be word of God is not accepted by people as word of God yet they are ready to accept any other book as word of God which does not even claim to be word of God, I find this very strange.

Meanwhile regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

I am not confused, if I have to read a book a certain way, to me that's a badly written book.

A good writer will write a book so clearly that anyone who reads it will understand the message.

Anyway I have researched on my side to the best of my abilities to understand it in context with hadith and Prophet's biography. I do not understand the background story of all the Chapters but I know the stories behind the important ones.

To me there is no confusion, its clear that its work of a man who had very limited literary skills. It contains no information that was not already known by man. It contains plagiarisms of Greek medicine (even the mistakes of Greek medicine).

Many chapters are wasted in repeating things (another hallmark of badwriting) and many more chapters are wasted in trying to rescue Muhammad's sex life, justifying his marriage to his adopted son Zaid's wife, and his affair with Hafsa's slave girl.

The other half of the book talks about how God will torture you for eternity and roast you alive and when your skin burns off it becomes alive again and burns again - again imaginations of a very twisted mind very typical of Savage Arabs who were fond of human sacrifice and torturing each other in the most hideous ways imaginable. Basically using fear and emotional blackmailing to get you to believe the book rather than using logic and reason

While thousands of Children are dying in Africa from diseases and wars God couldn't find a better problem to talk about than Muhammad's right to have sex with Hafsa's slave girl and how she angered Allah by telling this secret to Aisha and his other wives.

Its an obvious fraud by a man who only came to spoil, enjoy life with dozens of women and now you are here trying to break your head trying to understand this book which is a mess. Save me the troubles.

Video below explains how Muhammad manipulated women using verses in Quran.

Dear vitamin c, which encyclopaedias were you reading when you were born? Can you name me some? Can you tell me why you couldn't any at all? Is it because your parents and relatives or social circle was ignorant or uneducated or was there some other reason? What does that tell you? Before you could read anything at all you had to learn how to read and someone taught you and you took your time to do so. What does this process of learning teach you? That there is a time and place as well as a way for each and everything to happen. Just as you could not know anything at all once upon a time no matter whoever tried to teach you any thing so there is time for all things and that is why people cannot think and do anything at all till the time comes and they have done there homework.

This is why God too had to wait for people to grow up enough both mentally and physically and have enough life experiences to receive messages of God. You should read what I have explained in the links, particularly the very first link. It is for helping people like you to think at a higher level by realising problems humanity has with its level of thinking.

You are saying God does not have limitations, it is only true in some ways but not in other ways. God has some attributes which are about his existence as a being but he also has other attributes which are about what God is capable of doing. Although all attributes are permanent but his acts are not. This is why if God exists then it is not possible for God not to exist or cease to exist or stop existing. God is a living being so he cannot die or commit suicide or be killed or murdered. Likewise many other things are impossible for God to do. In short God can only do things that are Godly things not un-Godly things. Moreover it is not possible for humanity to know each and everything about God but only as much as it is possible for human beings and is necessary for human beings. This is why the quran only contains information that is necessary for mankind to know.

As for painful suffering of people, I have explained it fully for people like you see HERE.

As I see things, till you get hang of these things you stand nowhere. I also suggest that you go back to the threads where we had some discussions already.

Regards and all the best.

 

[Username2020]

Dear username, as I said before, the holy bible is not a revealed word of God. It is a collection of books written by various authors over a long period of time. Therefore on its own it is not an authority. No human work is an authority on its own till it has backing of revealed word of God, which in this era is only and only the quran.

To me it makes absolutely no sense at all that we humans attribute to God as his word the books which are written by people about God. The books themselves do not even claim to be so. The truth is people can never know mind of God all by themselves. Only God himself could tell people in his own words what they needed to know about God, his plan and purpose for creation of mankind and all the rest of things that go with it.

This is why the quran is a unique book which clearly stands out in this regard. The quran is a stand alone book which works as the criterion for testing all other sources of information.

However to use the quran as the criterion human beings first must understand it properly by putting its verses together properly in its own proper context purposefully otherwise the quran cannot be used as the criterion. This is why first human mind must discover the quran as it ought to be and then the quran is to be taken as the benchmark or standard to go by.

You are right concerning the quran that it is based upon claim of muhammad the final messenger of God but it is not muhammad whose claim validates the quran. Instead it is the quran that validates messenger-ship of Muhammad. How the quran does that? I have explained it for you.

As for all the other claims you have stated about the quran, they have no basis at all so they cannot invalidate the quran. If you will read the very first link for information on that you will see what I mean. What we have today as the quran is the original quran. This is why if you have time please read the information provided in the very first link at least. Hopefully it will help you see where I am coming from and why I am talking the way I do. The only book that claims to be word of God is not accepted by people as word of God yet they are ready to accept any other book as word of God which does not even claim to be word of God, I find this very strange.

Meanwhile regards and all the best.

Don't even know where to start. The delusion of perfect preservation of quran might have worked in the past but it is very difficult to justify today when the cat is out of the bag. Why don't you do yourself a favor and google hafz and warsh quran or bother watching these people whose phd thesis is based on the different qurans in the world. (Qiraat). Don't come back with these are different recitations, because these are not, These are qurans with different letters, hope you read basic arabic. He will show even the manuscripts. http://www.faithbrowser.com/versions-of-the-quran/ . Other scriptures don't call themselves word of god is a sheer ignorance of the subject. Just to quote one verse, it is a passage from new testament. 2 Timothy Chapter 3, verse 16 and 17. "[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.". If you have further doubt, I'll give you "SAHIH HADITH" from the imam bukari and muslim that even according to the early followers of quran, the quran was not preserved, they even believed that entire chapters were lost.

 

[Mughal1]

Don't even know where to start. The delusion of perfect preservation of quran might have worked in the past but it is very difficult to justify today when the cat is out of the bag. Why don't you do yourself a favor and google hafz and warsh quran or bother watching these people whose phd thesis is based on the different qurans in the world. (Qiraat). Don't come back with these are different recitations, because these are not, These are qurans with different letters, hope you read basic arabic. He will show even the manuscripts. http://www.faithbrowser.com/versions-of-the-quran/ . Other scriptures don't call themselves word of god is a sheer ignorance of the subject. Just to quote one verse, it is a passage from new testament. 2 Timothy Chapter 3, verse 16 and 17. "[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.". If you have further doubt, I'll give you "SAHIH HADITH" from the imam bukari and muslim that even according to the early followers of quran, the quran was not preserved, they even believed that entire chapters were lost.

Dear username, is, (new testament. 2 Timothy Chapter 3, verse 16 and 17. "[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works), part of the scripture or not? I say, it is. Who is saying these words? Timothy, the guy who wrote this book. Just because timothy says the bible is inspired by God does not make the bible inspired word of God. These words themselves tell us they are words of timothy who is attributing the scriptures to God. They are not words of God.

Yes, the quran is perfectly preserved, please see my stance HERE to see why I say what I say. In this thread I am explaining things in detail for people to have in their minds before they criticise the quran in any way.

Please note, I am fully aware of stance of our bothers dr david wood, dr jay smith, dr daniel brubaker etc etc. Unfortunately they have no idea as to how to study the quranic text properly. I have posted their videos in this forum already about so many versions of the quran or the errors in the copies of the quran etc etc. This is why you will be better off reading the link I have stated again for you. See how I tackle these like issues.

No where in any religious book God says, I have revealed such and such book to such and such person save the quran. I am not saying the quran is word of God just because it claims to be word of God because that is something up for discussion. For the time being I am only saying, why the quran is the only book in the world which claims in itself that this book is sent by God for mankind when all other books make no such claim? In this scripture ie in the quran it is supposedly God talking who is telling us humans he has revealed this book for our guidance.

This makes the quran an outstanding book as compared to all other books which people attribute to God but they do not claim to be from God. Instead we know who there authors are eg in new testament we have 4 gospels which are written by matthew, mark, luke and john. These gospels do not claim to be words of jesus or God. If we humans will forcefully attribute them to God then that will be a deliberate act of binding clear lies upon God, which is not the right things to do. This is why one cannot use any book as word of God which does not claim to be word of God and which is not word of God. This point I am making is of utmost importance or significance and I hope you do realise it.

This is why people need to scrutinise this book called the holy quran more than any other by learning how to do that. To me you come across as a christian because jews don't give importance to new testament. I also do not reject the bible as a human work of its time which could have some very important information but it is not revealed word of God. If it is not revealed word of God then we do not need to examine it as such, it is as simple as that.

Even if for argument sake I accept that jesus was God who came into this world in form of a human being, yet it was jesus who ought to give his disciples a book from himself so that the book could tell humanity jesus is God and this is his book which he revealed to his disciples for rest of human beings. Since jesus gave no such book to his disciples so we do not have any book from jesus today. On the other hand muhammad came and he said this is the book I got from God to give it to mankind. He did not say, here is my book about God. God also told muhammad to give God's book to people not any other book about God.

Just to make a point, in this explanation I am talking about jesus the way christian talk about him. In the quran jesus is a messenger of God and he was given a book by God just like the quran to give to people and he did. Same is the case about Moses and many other messengers of God who were given scriptures for mankind in their own times and places. Today no people in world have any of those scriptures. We only have the quran.

regards and all the best.

 

[Username2020]

Dear username, is, (new testament. 2 Timothy Chapter 3, verse 16 and 17. "[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works), part of the scripture or not? I say, it is. Who is saying these words? Timothy, the guy who wrote this book. Just because timothy says the bible is inspired by God does not make the bible inspired word of God. These words themselves tell us they are words of timothy who is attributing the scriptures to God. They are not words of God.

Yes, the quran is perfectly preserved, please see my stance HERE to see why I say what I say. In this thread I am explaining things in detail for people to have in their minds before they criticise the quran in any way.

Please note, I am fully aware of stance of our bothers dr david wood, dr jay smith, dr daniel brubaker etc etc. Unfortunately they have no idea as to how to study the quranic text properly. I have posted their videos in this forum already about so many versions of the quran or the errors in the copies of the quran etc etc. This is why you will be better off reading the link I have stated again for you. See how I tackle these like issues.

No where in any religious book God says, I have revealed such and such book to such and such person save the quran. I am not saying the quran is word of God just because it claims to be word of God because that is something up for discussion. For the time being I am only saying, why the quran is the only book in the world which claims in itself that this book is sent by God for mankind when all other books make no such claim? In this scripture ie in the quran it is supposedly God talking who is telling us humans he has revealed this book for our guidance.

This makes the quran an outstanding book as compared to all other books which people attribute to God but they do not claim to be from God. Instead we know who there authors are eg in new testament we have 4 gospels which are written by matthew, mark, luke and john. These gospels do not claim to be words of jesus or God. If we humans will forcefully attribute them to God then that will be a deliberate act of binding clear lies upon God, which is not the right things to do. This is why one cannot use any book as word of God which does not claim to be word of God and which is not word of God. This point I am making is of utmost importance or significance and I hope you do realise it.

This is why people need to scrutinise this book called the holy quran more than any other by learning how to do that. To me you come across as a christian because jews don't give importance to new testament. I also do not reject the bible as a human work of its time which could have some very important information but it is not revealed word of God. If it is not revealed word of God then we do not need to examine it as such, it is as simple as that.

Even if for argument sake I accept that jesus was God who came into this world in form of a human being, yet it was jesus who ought to give his disciples a book from himself so that the book could tell humanity jesus is God and this is his book which he revealed to his disciples for rest of human beings. Since jesus gave no such book to his disciples so we do not have any book from jesus today. On the other hand muhammad came and he said this is the book I got from God to give it to mankind. He did not say, here is my book about God. God also told muhammad to give God's book to people not any other book about God.

Just to make a point, in this explanation I am talking about jesus the way christian talk about him. In the quran jesus is a messenger of God and he was given a book by God just like the quran to give to people and he did. Same is the case about Moses and many other messengers of God who were given scriptures for mankind in their own times and places. Today no people in world have any of those scriptures. We only have the quran.

regards and all the best.

Dear Mughul, at this point of the argument, please invest some time to investigate the concept of inspired scripture from Christian perspective. I'll to briefly answer or point some of the things by the order of paragraph.
First Paragraph: I knew you wouldn't bother to read it. Anyways It is not Timothy talking, it is Apostle Paul writing letter to Timoth explaining him on how the church structure should be.

Second Paragraph: I don't know how you tackle those issues of variant qurans. I'll give it a look but the islamic academia is really scratching their heads on this. Try to see Shabbir Ally and Yasir Qadhi's take on this.

Third Paragraph: Why did you assume, I have not scrutinize quran. It has some borrowed stories from bible, some from torah. Even most peaceful verse in whole book that is never quoted in context come from Jewish non-inspired writing (Talmad), One who kills one man kills whole humanity.

Fourth Paragraph: quran claims to be divine as nothing to do it being divine. The only argument it puts forward is "Bring another book like that". This is beyond silly for the reason to be divine. By the same token, bring another writing like "Sheakspear" OR Sheakspear writings are divine. Do you see, how this kind of reasoning falls apart.

Fifth Paragraph: Your argument for 4 different gospels is the exact reason, why islam has no connection or even idea about abrahamic religions. The Old testament consists of Torah, Psalms, and writings from (REAL) Prophets like David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jermiah. All of them were inspired by the HolySpirit just like the writers of NewTestament.

Here is the proof from Old testament King David speaking in book of 2 Samuel 32 :2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue"
These writings were written down, and tell a unified story of coming Messiah which (some) Jews have not yet acknowledged.
Compare it all to "Vahi" system of quran. The hilarious descriptions of vahi, Vahi was heavy, Camels used to sit down due to the heaviness. I mean look at this whole Surah 109. Tell me who can find this form of writing even logical. This is full chapter BTW

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say: O, unbelievers!
I do not worship that you worship,
and you do not worship that which I worship.
I do not worship that you worship,
and you do not worship that which I worship.
You have a faith [religion] of your own, and I have mine.

 

[Mughal1]

Dear Mughul, at this point of the argument, please invest some time to investigate the concept of inspired scripture from Christian perspective. I'll to briefly answer or point some of the things by the order of paragraph.
First Paragraph: I knew you wouldn't bother to read it. Anyways It is not Timothy talking, it is Apostle Paul writing letter to Timoth explaining him on how the church structure should be.

Second Paragraph: I don't know how to tackle those issues of variant qurans. I'll give it a look but the islamic academia is really scratching their heads on this. Try to see Shabbir Ally and Yasir Qadhi's take on this.

Third Paragraph: Why did you assume, I have not scrutinize quran. It has some borrowed stories from bible, some from torah. Even most peaceful verse in whole book that is never quoted in context come from Jewish non-inspired writing (Talmad), One who kills one man kills whole humanity.

Fourth Paragraph: quran claims to be divine as nothing to do it being divine. The only argument it puts forward is "Bring another book like that". This is beyond silly for the reason to be divine. By the same token, bring another writing like "Sheakspear" OR Sheakspear writings are divine. Do you see, how this kind of reasoning falls apart.
Fifth Paragraph: Your argument for 4 different gospels is the exact reason, why islam has no connection or even idea about abrahamic religions. The Old testament consists of Torah, Psalms, and writings from (REAL) Prophets like David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jermiah. All of them were inspired by the HolySpirit just like the writers of NewTestament.

Here is the proof from Old testament King David speaking in book of 2 Samuel 32 :2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue"
These writings were written down, and tell a unified story of coming Messiah which (some) Jews have not yet acknowledged.
Compare it all to "Vahi" system of quran. The hilarious descriptions of vahi, Vahi was heavy, Camels used to sit down due to the heaviness. I mean look at this whole Surah 109. Tell me who can find this form of writing even logical. This is full chapter BTW

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say: O, unbelievers!
I do not worship that you worship,
and you do not worship that which I worship.
I do not worship that you worship,
and you do not worship that which I worship.
You have a faith [religion] of your own, and I have mine.

Dear username, as I explained already, other than the quran there is no book on the face of the earth that claims to be revealed word of God. All books which people like yourself attribute to God are written by men like ourselves. They are not reliable in this regard at all because they are what they are as should be obvious to all who read them. We cannot forcefully make them revealed word of God by our such claims because they do not claim to be so. If we will do that then that will be a clear cut lie. On the other hand the quran says, it is revealed word of God and people like yourself say, no it is not. Now if the quran is truly revealed word of God then again such people will be in big trouble who deny the quranic claim without its proper study and scrutiny. This is why proper study of the quran is absolutely necessary whereas study of other books in this regard is utter waste of time and energy.

Here we humans are committing two wrongs against God ie one, we are attributing to God that which clearly shows it is not from God and the other, we are rejecting the book which actually claims to be from God without its proper scrutiny. This is why to study books for knowing things about God which do not even claim to be revealed word of God is a waste of our time. Likewise not giving needed time to proper study of the quran which actually claims to be the revealed word of God is also proving fatal for humanity. Why? Because it teaches people how to live in this world purposefully properly. By ignoring the quran humanity is digging its own grave deeper and deeper day by day.

You stated these are not words of timothy but st paul. Fine, but my point is they are not revealed words of God. If you look at debates between people of different religions or between atheists and theists, they all show their terrible ignorance about the issue of God and God related things. By the way here I am not differentiating between muslims and nonmuslims. You can see my explanations about this in the link I have provided you. This is why the title of my thread is what it is. My target for education are highly educated people such as you have pointed out above. I am telling them their reasoning is wrong in various ways.

My points are very simple eg I claim if there is a God then he has created this world for his own purposes and not for our purposes. You cannot disagree with me on this point, no one can but if you can please explain why?

If God has created this world then what was his purpose for creating it? My answer is, because he wanted to express himself. Can you or anyone else disagree with me on this point? No, not at all. The question now is, how did God express himself? My answer is, by way of creating his creation and by revealing his messages to mankind. Why did he create things that he has created and why did he send his messages to mankind? So that his purpose of creating things could become fulfilled by way of these things. Can you or anyone else disagree with me on this point? No. It is because the only book we have which could be from God for us is the quran.

God has created a special creature called human being and all the rest of things serve various purposes, one of which is there use by God and the other their use by human beings. They are used by God and mankind so that the purpose for which God has created things could become fulfilled.

Since God decided the purpose of creation of his creatures therefore it was God who was supposed to explain what parts these creatures were supposed to play in his scheme of things and he did in the quran. This is why we must come to know why God created us and how can we humans play our parts to fulfil the purpose for which he has created us. This is what he calls deen of islam.

Since God has provided us already with all that we will ever need to fulfil the purpose for which God has created us therefore there is no point in us asking God for things which he has provided us with already. All we need to do is get on with the job he is assigned for us by thinking and doing things the way he has told us and that is why the quran is called a guidance from God for humanity.

Now what are we supposed to be doing? We are supposed to organise and regulate ourselves into a proper human community in the kingdom of God in order to manage properly human population as well as God given things ie land and resources and means of production and distributions so that human existence becomes a example of life as it is supposed to to be in paradise in hereafter.

This is why when the quranic governing system is installed by humanity that is where it is going to end up and that will prove the quran is truly word of God and mankind will pat the back of God as well as their own back and so will God himself. This is why deen of islam is a proper system of sustenance for humanity.

What you are trying to do here is pull me into a never ending religious debate which is utter nonsense. I am not religious at all. For that you need mullaans and there slaves not me. I do not accept the quran as religious holy book. To me the quran is, as I have explained it. Therefore I do not interpret word IBAADAH as worship or pooja or parastish of God. You see word ABD has a lot of different meanings eg it means a slave, a worker, a servant, an employ or one who serves etc etc. None of these meanings mean worship. Even if one has a slave, one makes the slave work for the owner and the owner does not tell the slave to worship the owner every so often. God has sent his messengers with a mission and that mission is bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God.

This is why deen of islam is a mission based upon struggle from the very start to its very completion. This is the proper context of word jihaad in deen of islam ie doing all one can to bring about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. So that there no one there suffering for one's needs and wants. Can you see, why there is such painful suffering in our human world? It is mainly because people are not organising and regulating themselves as they should according to guidance of their creator. They are living as they like ignoring the guidance given by God.

Many ignorant people think the quran does not contain information about science. I have explained why they are wrong for thinking that way. There are many other issues as well that I have explained for helping people understand the quran. Deen of islam is very straight forward way of life but it needs to be understood properly before it could be adopted faithfully. The way you come across, you need to learn a lot more things about the quran so see things clearly. I hope I am of help.

regards and all the best.

 

[Username2020]

Dear username, as I explained already, other than the quran there is no book on the face of the earth that claims to be revealed word of God. All books which people like yourself attribute to God are written by men like ourselves. They are not reliable in this regard at all because they are what they are as should be obvious to all who read them. We cannot forcefully make them revealed word of God by our such claims because they do not claim to be so. If we will do that then that will be a clear cut lie. On the other hand the quran says, it is revealed word of God and people like yourself say, no it is not. Now if the quran is truly revealed word of God then again such people will be in big trouble who deny the quranic claim without its proper study and scrutiny. This is why proper study of the quran is absolutely necessary whereas study of other books in this regard is utter waste of time and energy.

Here we humans are committing two wrongs against God ie one, we are attributing to God that which clearly shows it is not from God and the other, we are rejecting the book which actually claims to be from God without its proper scrutiny. This is why to study books for knowing things about God which do not even claim to be revealed word of God is a waste of our time. Likewise not giving needed time to proper study of the quran which actually claims to be the revealed word of God is also proving fatal for humanity. Why? Because it teaches people how to live in this world purposefully properly. By ignoring the quran humanity is digging its own grave deeper and deeper day by day.

You stated these are not words of timothy but st paul. Fine, but my point is they are not revealed words of God. If you look at debates between people of different religions or between atheists and theists, they all show their terrible ignorance about the issue of God and God related things. By the way here I am not differentiating between muslims and nonmuslims. You can see my explanations about this in the link I have provided you. This is why the title of my thread is what it is. My target for education are highly educated people such as you have pointed out above. I am telling them their reasoning is wrong in various ways.

My points are very simple eg I claim if there is a God then he has created this world for his own purposes and not for our purposes. You cannot disagree with me on this point, no one can but if you can please explain why?

If God has created this world then what was his purpose for creating it? My answer is, because he wanted to express himself. Can you or anyone else disagree with me on this point? No, not at all. The question now is, how did God express himself? My answer is, by way of creating his creation and by revealing his messages to mankind. Why did he create things that he has created and why did he send his messages to mankind? So that his purpose of creating things could become fulfilled by way of these things. Can you or anyone else disagree with me on this point? No. It is because the only book we have which could be from God for us is the quran.

God has created a special creature called human being and all the rest of things serve various purposes, one of which is there use by God and the other their use by human beings. They are used by God and mankind so that the purpose for which God has created things could become fulfilled.

Since God decided the purpose of creation of his creatures therefore it was God who was supposed to explain what parts these creatures were supposed to play in his scheme of things and he did in the quran. This is why we must come to know why God created us and how can we humans play our parts to fulfil the purpose for which he has created us. This is what he calls deen of islam.

Since God has provided us already with all that we will ever need to fulfil the purpose for which God has created us therefore there is no point in us asking God for things which he has provided us with already. All we need to do is get on with the job he is assigned for us by thinking and doing things the way he has told us and that is why the quran is called a guidance from God for humanity.

Now what are we supposed to be doing? We are supposed to organise and regulate ourselves into a proper human community in the kingdom of God in order to manage properly human population as well as God given things ie land and resources and means of production and distributions so that human existence becomes a example of life as it is supposed to to be in paradise in hereafter.

This is why when the quranic governing system is installed by humanity that is where it is going to end up and that will prove the quran is truly word of God and mankind will pat the back of God as well as their own back and so will God himself. This is why deen of islam is a proper system of sustenance for humanity.

What you are trying to do here is pull me into a never ending religious debate which is utter nonsense. I am not religious at all. For that you need mullaans and there slaves not me. I do not accept the quran as religious holy book. To me the quran is, as I have explained it. Therefore I do not interpret word IBAADAH as worship or pooja or parastish of God. You see word ABD has a lot of different meanings eg it means a slave, a worker, a servant, an employ or one who serves etc etc. None of these meanings mean worship. Even if one has a slave, one makes the slave work for the owner and the owner does not tell the slave to worship the owner every so often. God has sent his messengers with a mission and that mission is bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God.

This is why deen of islam is a mission based upon struggle from the very start to its very completion. This is the proper context of word jihaad in deen of islam ie doing all one can to bring about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. So that there no one there suffering for one's needs and wants. Can you see, why there is such painful suffering in our human world? It is mainly because people are not organising and regulating themselves as they should according to guidance of their creator. They are living as they like ignoring the guidance given by God.

Many ignorant people think the quran does not contain information about science. I have explained why they are wrong for thinking that way. There are many other issues as well that I have explained for helping people understand the quran. Deen of islam is very straight forward way of life but it needs to be understood properly before it could be adopted faithfully. The way you come across, you need to learn a lot more things about the quran so see things clearly. I hope I am of help.

regards and all the best.

Dear Mughal, This is more interesting conversation than I thought It would turn out to be. Your case is more than a typical of a person who was raised in muslim household and would like to believe whatever was told him, while attributing 3 ASSUMPTIONS with anyone who would challenge their belief.

1 - I know everything about other religions and they are all corrupt.
2- You had never studied quran and you are bias against muhammad and quran.
3- If a scripture in question is quoted to you, it is either out of context or weak hadith. or you don't know arabic.

There are many many muslims I have talked to and this is the conclusion many of them have after cross examining. Lets analyze your long message on these three criteria and I'll point out corrections (if any). Your reply is self refuting at the same time but before continuing, you never touched

1 - Different version of qurans issue
2 - You never asked me back to quote hadith from Bukhari - Muslim on what early followers thought about quran
3 - You admitted you had no idea on what 2 Timothy says (what God breath means) . Who is the writers or how things were written in Torah and New Testament. I won't blame you because even quran had no idea of any previous book on how they were revealed. This book doesn't even get their names correct , Instead borrows a GREEK work EVANGALIO to (Injil) in arabic.
4 - I quoted you the whole surah (Kafirun) to show you how impressive (pun) the writing of the quran is (BUNCH OF MUMBO JUMBO). I quoted you the source of the surah 5: 32, You never commented on any of that.

First Paragraph: I quoted you the scripture verse from old and testament on how they are inspired and claim to be inspired. I won't need to elaborate it more.

Second Paragraph: The first book of Old testament (Real scriptures) coordinate with the last book of New Testament ( 1 UNIFIED STORY). TRY TO GOOGLE IT SEE the meanings.
quran has nothing to do with any previous scriptures and contradicts all the previous books and turns out that muhammad is actually a antichrist. See 1 John 1 : 22

Third & Fourth Paragraph: Exactly the teaching of the bible, God is the focal point of the universe, The Jews believe it to be their Messiah, who will reign as divine figure and king in end times. Christians identifies it to be Jesus, who is from eternity and will rule and judge the world. muhammad is not even in the equation.

It is taking long, so rest of the Paragraph: The word "kingdom of God" used by you is a core Christian concept of New testament. Meaning living life according to teaching of Jesus (Matthew Chapter 5 to 7). You won't find it in quran anywhere.
The scientific miracles is popularized by ahmed deedat and zakir naik, Its vague to talk about it without looking at a particular passage.
These PLAIN statements of scientific miracles WITHOUT particular verse makes a good MADARASSA masala talk and would be excellent for the " TALIB E ILM" levels, but don't hold any value in cross reference discussion,

Lastly, It was really nice talking to you, Although we talked about totally opposite views, but you still came across as someone who put thought into these things. Good luck on your quest. I'll leave the last comment or paragraph(s) for you to write.

 

[Mughal1]

Dear Mughal, This is more interesting conversation than I thought It would turn out to be. Your case is more than a typical of a person who was raised in muslim household and would like to believe whatever was told him, while attributing 3 ASSUMPTIONS with anyone who would challenge their belief.

1 - I know everything about other religions and they are all corrupt.
2- You had never studied quran and you are bias against muhammad and quran.
3- If a scripture in question is quoted to you, it is either out of context or weak hadith. or you don't know arabic.

There are many many muslims I have talked to and this is the conclusion many of them have after cross examining. Lets analyze your long message on these three criteria and I'll point out corrections (if any). Your reply is self refuting at the same time but before continuing, you never touched

1 - Different version of qurans issue
2 - You never asked me back to quote hadith from Bukhari - Muslim on what early followers thought about quran
3 - You admitted you had no idea on what 2 Timothy says (what God breath means) . Who is the writers or how things were written in Torah and New Testament. I won't blame you because even quran had no idea of any previous book on how they were revealed. This book doesn't even get their names correct , Instead borrows a GREEK work EVANGALIO to (Injil) in arabic.
4 - I quoted you the whole surah (Kafirun) to show you how impressive (pun) the writing of the quran is (BUNCH OF MUMBO JUMBO). I quoted you the source of the surah 5: 32, You never commented on any of that.

First Paragraph: I quoted you the scripture verse from old and testament on how they are inspired and claim to be inspired. I won't need to elaborate it more.

Second Paragraph: The first book of Old testament (Real scriptures) coordinate with the last book of New Testament ( 1 UNIFIED STORY). TRY TO GOOGLE IT SEE the meanings.
quran has nothing to do with any previous scriptures and contradicts all the previous books and turns out that muhammad is actually a antichrist. See 1 John 1 : 22

Third & Fourth Paragraph: Exactly the teaching of the bible, God is the focal point of the universe, The Jews believe it to be their Messiah, who will reign as divine figure and king in end times. Christians identifies it to be Jesus, who is from eternity and will rule and judge the world. muhammad is not even in the equation.

It is taking long, so rest of the Paragraph: The word "kingdom of God" used by you is a core Christian concept of New testament. Meaning living life according to teaching of Jesus (Matthew Chapter 5 to 7). You won't find it in quran anywhere.
The scientific miracles is popularized by ahmed deedat and zakir naik, Its vague to talk about it without looking at a particular passage.
These PLAIN statements of scientific miracles WITHOUT particular verse makes a good MADARASSA masala talk and would be excellent for the " TALIB E ILM" levels, but don't hold any value in cross reference discussion,

Lastly, It was really nice talking to you, Although we talked about totally opposite views, but you still came across as someone who put thought into these things. Good luck on your quest. I'll leave the last comment or paragraph(s) for you to write.

Dear username, please refer to the link I have provided for you already to see how many different major problems we have as human beings when it comes to our understanding of word of God due to which we fail very badly in understanding word of God.

Almost all your questions about the quran are answered in there in detail.

As for all other scriptures, they are not words of God no matter how you try to explain them. It is people who are talking about God in them, not God almighty. That does not mean all information in them is false or they are useless, they are still very useful and highly valuable in their own way. For example, through these scriptures we can see what God revealed before the quran because some of the information in them comes from original source ie God. How did their authors come to know that information? From the original God sent scriptures of those times. They prove the quran is not the only book in the world today from God rather God has been sending his books long before the quran as well.

So your idea that the quran has copied its information from the bible is not true. It is because the quran proves itself as a book revealed by God which contains his words alone exactly as they were revealed. You have a lot of wrong ideas about the quran as well as revelation of God in general because you have been reading things about the quran in books by muslims and nonmuslims who have no clue what the quran is and what exactly it says in its pages or why or how. All this is explained by me in the link I provided for you. Please do see what I have explained so that you may come to know why we differ and how can we come to the very same point of view about the quran and the bible.

In the link I provided you will come to know, why miracles are impossible and unnecessary or are not needed at all for believing in God. Not only that but also those who claim to perform miracles and magic or have supernatural powers can be very easily proven wrong. Once you read the thread you will come to know why jesus could not come back from dead. Chrisitianity like hinduism does have very same ideas as are in the quran about kingdom of God or ram raj or deva nagri etc ie a proper human community in the kingdom of God. We will have very little disagreement even if we will study our own scriptures properly. However if we all will attribute lies to God due to our remaining ignorant or lacking in true knowledge then we will create hell by our own hands for one another as we can see the hellhole we have created for ourselves already by doing exactly that.

Scriptures do not talk about punishment of God but about what people will do to each other if they will not live by way of life advised by God for them which leads them to bliss, dignified and secure existence in this very world. So you can see what kind of world we human beings have created for ourselves by not living by way of life advised by God. This is why understanding God revealed scripture properly is of utmost importance for us human beings so that we could then educate each other about it and come together as a single human family under rule of law of one true God in his kingdom. This world is house of God wherein we human beings must live by his revealed house rules if we want to live comfortably and happily. This is why in the link given to the thread I am explaining how to understand the quran properly. The same will help you and other to properly understand the bible as well.

regards and all the best