Are we the people of science ?

[Vitamin_C]

I fail to see the connection between science and the United States... US is one of the worst countries in the West when it comes to science education. Creationism is rampant in the US... it is the only developed country that walked out of the Kyoto Protocol on Global Warming. It is the only developed country where the party of the sitting government rejects global warming even though there is overwhelming scientific evidence against their position.

Reference: https://www.visionofearth.org/econo...-it-cost-to-end-extreme-poverty-in-the-world/

talk on facts and figures, not personal opinions.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Neo-colonialism and Judeo-Christian philosophy

اچھا امریکہ کولیٹرل ڈیمیج میں جو لوگ مارتا ہے وہ مذہب کے نام پر مارتا ہے؟ کونسا مذہب ہے یہ ؟

 

[Liberal 000]

اچھا امریکہ کولیٹرل ڈیمیج میں جو لوگ مارتا ہے وہ مذہب کے نام پر مارتا ہے؟ کونسا مذہب ہے یہ ؟

Kitny loog mary abhi tak

America ky any se phly Sadam ne Kitny loog Mary kabhi parha

Afghanistan mein civil war mein Kitny mar rahy thy kabhi parha

America ky any se loog bachy hain ulta

 

[Liberal 000]

Reference: https://www.visionofearth.org/econo...-it-cost-to-end-extreme-poverty-in-the-world/

talk on facts and figures, not personal opinions.

America is responsible to take care of its own people not of world

 

[Sohail Shuja]

The problem is not guns or nuclear weapons... There are hundreds of nukes in France and Britain, how many people have died from those nukes so far...?

The problem is people who follow irrational ideologies that are not based on any logic. These ideologies can be religious/political/cultural etc... for example Nazism, Zionism, Communism were not based on any logic or reason and they lead to millions of dead. Islam and Christianity are not based on any logic, their followers killed millions during the crusades, internal civil wars etc... we can see the continuation in Kashmir and Israel.

After world war 2... Europeans said look if we have more of these lunatics, especially with nuclear weapons, then it will be the end of mankind... This is where modern secularism comes from.

Many of the laws and freedoms you enjoy today in Pakistan are not because of Islam, they are because of laws that are based on secular morality, which is far superior to religious morality. You can no longer buy and sell human beings in Pakistan because of these secular laws. Slavery was legal in Gulf countries until 1970's until European countries twisted their arms and forced them to ban it. So if you were born in these Muslim countries before 1960s, there is a chance that you would have been born as someone else's private property.

کسی غلام کو آزاد کرنا کسی مذہب میں ایک بہت ہی بڑی نیکی بتائی گئی ہے۔ کیا آپ جانتے ہیں؟ اسکے علاوہ آپ اسلام میں غلامی اور غلاموں کے ساتھ سلوک کے بارے میں کیا جانتے ہیں؟ اس مسئلے پر بحث تب ہی ہو سکتی ہے جب انسان کو معلوم ہو کہ دوسری طرف کا موقف کیا ہے؟

اسلام میں ایک آزاد شخص کو غلام بنا لینا ایک بہت ہی قبیح گناہ ہے۔ لیکن اگر یہ سب کچھ مسل ممالک میں ہوتا رہا ہے تو اسکو آپ مذہب کی تعلیم نہیں کہہ سکتے، یہ تو حکمرانوں کی حرکتیں ہیں جو کہ ہوس اقتدار، مال اور دولت جیسی چیزوں پر ہمیشہ مذہب کو بیچتی رہی ہیں۔

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[Sohail Shuja]

Kitny loog mary abhi tak

America ky any se phly Sadam ne Kitny loog Mary kabhi parha

Afghanistan mein civil war mein Kitny mar rahy thy kabhi parha

America ky any se loog bachy hain ulta

دوسروں کو پڑھنے کو کہتے ہو، کبھی خود بھی کچھ پڑھ لیا کرو
https://www.statista.com/statistics/269729/documented-civilian-deaths-in-iraq-war-since-2003/
گو کہ ان اعداد و شمار پر بھی کوئی سو فیصد یقین نہیں کر سکتا، لیکن میں تمھیں چیلنج کرتا ہوں کہ مجھے کہیں سے بھی نکال کر دکھا دو کہ اس کا نصف بھی کبھی صدام حسین کی حکومت میں ہوا ہو۔
اور مسئلہ جو زیر بحث ہے وہ وہیں کا وہیں ہے، اس میں سائنس یا مذہب کا کیا عمل دخل؟​

 

[Sohail Shuja]

America is responsible to take care of its own people not of world

So, Mr. Spokesman of America, tell me why US is involved in bombing Iraq, Libya, Yemen and now Syria? why they want democracy in the world? if they have democracy within US, it should be enough

This also uncovers the true face of your liberalism, America shouldn't care for people around the world... ha... this is your Morality?

 

[Vitamin_C]

I know Islams position on this I want to see if you know this or not.
Slavery is not a sin in Islam. Although it is a sin in Islam for a sex slave to refuse to have sex with her master when he orders it (unless she is menstruating or is sick)

Islam permits slavery and there are even instructions in Quran on how to own slaves, there are even instructions there on sex slaves, I do not want to go into details here.

The Quran even has verses that justify slavery. There are mountains of Hadith showing Muhammad allowing his men to rape and enslave women. There is also Hadith in which Muhammad bringing freed women back into slavery, the slave was freed by Ibn Abbas and Muhammad forced that freed person back to slavery.

There are many things that are haram in Islam, such as pork, anal sex and alcohol. Why is owning another human being not in this list? Is eating pork worse than slavery? There is no morality that we can infer from this.

(References for Quran and Hadith are available if you want to see them)

کسی غلام کو آزاد کرنا کسی مذہب میں ایک بہت ہی بڑی نیکی بتائی گئی ہے۔ کیا آپ جانتے ہیں؟ اسکے علاوہ آپ اسلام میں غلامی اور غلاموں کے ساتھ سلوک کے بارے میں کیا جانتے ہیں؟ اس مسئلے پر بحث تب ہی ہو سکتی ہے جب انسان کو معلوم ہو کہ دوسری طرف کا موقف کیا ہے؟

اسلام میں ایک آزاد شخص کو غلام بنا لینا ایک بہت ہی قبیح گناہ ہے۔ لیکن اگر یہ سب کچھ مسل ممالک میں ہوتا رہا ہے تو اسکو آپ مذہب کی تعلیم نہیں کہہ سکتے، یہ تو حکمرانوں کی حرکتیں ہیں جو کہ ہوس اقتدار، مال اور دولت جیسی چیزوں پر ہمیشہ مذہب کو بیچتی رہی ہیں۔

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[Sohail Shuja]

I fail to see the connection between science and the United States... US is one of the worst countries in the West when it comes to science education. Creationism is rampant in the US... it is the only developed country that walked out of the Kyoto Protocol on Global Warming. It is the only developed country where the party of the sitting government rejects global warming even though there is overwhelming scientific evidence against their position.

In fact that comment was not for you. I already marked a line here that Science is a means to an end, but not an end in itself. Morality is a different side of knowledge, understanding and asceticism to wisdom. You also proved my point here that being progressive in science does not necessarily mean that you are doing the right thing. Science is a tool, which gives you knowledge to make medicines and weapons. Now you can save lives easily or kill hundred of thousands of them by just pressing a button. The thing which governs our decisions to use these 'scientific amenities' is derived from our values, which are set up by our morals, that are based in religion. Therefore, comparing religion and science is like comparing apples with oranges

 

[Vitamin_C]

Refer to my comment on this thread that talks about this in detail. Religion is not an alternative to science. Guns and nukes do not kill people, people who follow irrational ideologies kill people. Religions and political ideologies such as Islam, Christianity, Zionism, Communism, Nazism have been responsible for these deaths. Nazis killed thousands times more people than the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did and they didn't even have nukes.

In fact that comment was not for you. I already marked a line here that Science is a means to an end, but not an end in itself. Morality is a different side of knowledge, understanding and asceticism to wisdom. You also proved my point here that being progressive in science does not necessarily mean that you are doing the right thing. Science is a tool, which gives you knowledge to make medicines and weapons. Now you can save lives easily or kill hundred of thousands of them by just pressing a button. The thing which governs our decisions to use these 'scientific amenities' is derived from our values, which are set up by our morals, that are based in religion. Therefore, comparing religion and science is like comparing apples with oranges

 

[Vitamin_C]

As you requested here are the rights of slaves under Islam. (Again I can provide references as you request them)


a) Muslim men were allowed to have sex anytime with females slaves - Sura 4:3, 4:29, 33:49.

b) Slaves are as helpless before their masters as idols are before God - Sura 16:77

c) According to Islamic Tradition, people at the time of their capture were either to be killed, or enslaved. Shows you that they were at the bottom of the barrel to start with.

d) According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves were merchandise. The sales of slaves was in accordance with the sale of animals.

e) Muhammad ordered that some slaves who were freed by their master be RE-ENSLAVED!

f) It is permissible under Islamic law to whip slaves.

g) According to Islam, a Muslim could not be put to death for murdering a slave. Ref. 2:178 and the Jalalayn confirm this.

h) According to Islam, the testimony of slaves is not admissible in court. Ibn Timiyya and Bukhari state this.

i) According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves cannot choose their own marriage mate. - Ibn Hazm, vol. 6, part 9.

j) According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves can be forced to marry who their masters want. - Malik ibn Anas, vol. 2, page 155.

According to historic sources from Muhammad's time it is even said that Muhammad was a slave trader, although he bought more slaves than he sold.

کسی غلام کو آزاد کرنا کسی مذہب میں ایک بہت ہی بڑی نیکی بتائی گئی ہے۔ کیا آپ جانتے ہیں؟ اسکے علاوہ آپ اسلام میں غلامی اور غلاموں کے ساتھ سلوک کے بارے میں کیا جانتے ہیں؟ اس مسئلے پر بحث تب ہی ہو سکتی ہے جب انسان کو معلوم ہو کہ دوسری طرف کا موقف کیا ہے؟

اسلام میں ایک آزاد شخص کو غلام بنا لینا ایک بہت ہی قبیح گناہ ہے۔ لیکن اگر یہ سب کچھ مسل ممالک میں ہوتا رہا ہے تو اسکو آپ مذہب کی تعلیم نہیں کہہ سکتے، یہ تو حکمرانوں کی حرکتیں ہیں جو کہ ہوس اقتدار، مال اور دولت جیسی چیزوں پر ہمیشہ مذہب کو بیچتی رہی ہیں۔

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[haroon619]

Liberal keep spreading your paid agenda. We have enough knowledge nowadays to know who is paid who is bias and who is true to his content. Without God, we wouldn't have any knowledge. He gave us this power so he could see how will we use it. Will we come on social media and talk against him or will we use this knowledge for the betterment of the society.

 

[Liberal 000]

دوسروں کو پڑھنے کو کہتے ہو، کبھی خود بھی کچھ پڑھ لیا کرو
https://www.statista.com/statistics/269729/documented-civilian-deaths-in-iraq-war-since-2003/
گو کہ ان اعداد و شمار پر بھی کوئی سو فیصد یقین نہیں کر سکتا، لیکن میں تمھیں چیلنج کرتا ہوں کہ مجھے کہیں سے بھی نکال کر دکھا دو کہ اس کا نصف بھی کبھی صدام حسین کی حکومت میں ہوا ہو۔
اور مسئلہ جو زیر بحث ہے وہ وہیں کا وہیں ہے، اس میں سائنس یا مذہب کا کیا عمل دخل؟​

Most of them died in bomb blasts on public places, Mosques, Shia processions in the name of Jihad ... You are blaming yourself here!

Just read how many Kurds were gased by Sadam lol and leave the deaths of Shias under his rule!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Knowledge doesn't come from God, it comes from evidence based study of the world around us. In fact the Latin word for knowledge is Science.

Liberal keep spreading your paid agenda. We have enough knowledge nowadays to know who is paid who is bias and who is true to his content. Without God, we wouldn't have any knowledge. He gave us this power so he could see how will we use it. Will we come on social media and talk against him or will we use this knowledge for the betterment of the society.

 

[Liberal 000]

So, Mr. Spokesman of America, tell me why US is involved in bombing Iraq, Libya, Yemen and now Syria? why they want democracy in the world? if they have democracy within US, it should be enough

This also uncovers the true face of your liberalism, America shouldn't care for people around the world... ha... this is your Morality?

It's not my morality... It's a morality of Nation states!

American does not want democracy in Muslim world. It is always enslaved Muslims who rise up against their dictators in support of democracy to feel freedom

 

[Sohail Shuja]

I know Islams position on this I want to see if you know this or not.
Slavery is not a sin in Islam. Islam permits slavery and there are even instructions in Quran on how to own slaves, there are even instructions there on sex slaves, I do not want to go into details here.

Well, neither do I, it is a separate topic which does not go with the topic being discussed here. Islam's position of slavery is way too different than that topic discussed here. But if science had proven to be of any help to the subject of slaves and slavery in the world, then i would have liked to debate on it.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Refer to my comment on this thread that talks about this in detail. Religion is not an alternative to science. Guns and nukes do not kill people, people who follow irrational ideologies kill people. Religions and political ideologies such as Islam, Christianity, Zionism, Communism, Nazism have been responsible for these deaths. Nazis killed thousands times more people than the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did and they didn't even have nukes.

It were not the religions.... it was the interpretation of the religion and ideologies, which were governed by some sort of carnal desires. In the past, people used religion as the vehicle to motivate people to kill and get killed. Nowadays, they do it in the name of "War on Terror".

 

[Vitamin_C]

As for your comment that in Islam it is a sin to enslave a free person. That is not true.

Who can be made a slave in Islam?
1) Islam allows Muslims to make slaves out of anyone who is captured during war.

2) Islam allows for the children of slaves to be raised as slaves

3) Like #1, Islam allows for Christians and Jews to be made into slaves if they are captured in war. After Muslim armies attacked and conquered Spain, they took thousands of slaves back to Damascus. The key prize was 1000 virgins as slaves. They were forced to go all the way back to Damascus.

4) Christians and Jews, who had made a treaty with the ruling Muslims could be made into slaves if they did not pay the "protection" tax. This paying for 'protection' was just like paying a Mafia racketeer! This allowed Muslim rulers to extort money from non-Muslim people.

Muhammad owned many slaves one of them was a black slave by the name of Mahran and he said: "Even if I were already carrying 6 or 7 donkey loads while we were on a journey, anyone who felt weak would throw his clothes or shield or sword on me so I would carry that, a heavy load." From Sirat Al Rasool

If we take Muhammad as an example for all mankind for all times to come then should we also enslave black people and use them as donkeys and beasts of burden?

کسی غلام کو آزاد کرنا کسی مذہب میں ایک بہت ہی بڑی نیکی بتائی گئی ہے۔ کیا آپ جانتے ہیں؟ اسکے علاوہ آپ اسلام میں غلامی اور غلاموں کے ساتھ سلوک کے بارے میں کیا جانتے ہیں؟ اس مسئلے پر بحث تب ہی ہو سکتی ہے جب انسان کو معلوم ہو کہ دوسری طرف کا موقف کیا ہے؟

اسلام میں ایک آزاد شخص کو غلام بنا لینا ایک بہت ہی قبیح گناہ ہے۔ لیکن اگر یہ سب کچھ مسل ممالک میں ہوتا رہا ہے تو اسکو آپ مذہب کی تعلیم نہیں کہہ سکتے، یہ تو حکمرانوں کی حرکتیں ہیں جو کہ ہوس اقتدار، مال اور دولت جیسی چیزوں پر ہمیشہ مذہب کو بیچتی رہی ہیں۔

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[Sohail Shuja]

It's not my morality... It's a morality of Nation states!

American does not want democracy in Muslim world. It is always enslaved Muslims who rise up against their dictators in support of democracy to feel freedom

Who the hell invited US to Iraq then?

 

[Vitamin_C]

We are not discussing science but the difference between absolute (religious) morality and secular (reason based) morality.

Well, neither do I, it is a separate topic which does not go with the topic being discussed here. Islam's position of slavery is way too different than that topic discussed here. But if science had proven to be of any help to the subject of slaves and slavery in the world, then i would have liked to debate on it.