Are we the people of science ?

[Liberal 000]

Who the hell invited US to Iraq then?

Kurds of Iraq

 

[Vitamin_C]

My argument is not against specific religion or political ideology. My argument is very simple and it is that a man who believes in something blindly based on faith without the need for logic or reason is a dangerous man. Hitler was a monster but I am sure many people under him were good husbands and fathers but they were just blindly followIng hi. In faith, many people during crusades were good people but they killed because of their religion. My point is bad people will always do bad things without any reason but to make a good person do bad things you need faith.

It were not the religions.... it was the interpretation of the religion and ideologies, which were governed by some sort of carnal desires. In the past, people used religion as the vehicle to motivate people to kill and get killed. Nowadays, they do it in the name of "War on Terror".

 

[Sohail Shuja]

As for your comment that in Islam it is a sin to enslave a free person. That is not true.

Who can be made a slave in Islam?
1) Islam allows Muslims to make slaves out of anyone who is captured during war.

2) Islam allows for the children of slaves to be raised as slaves

3) Like #1, Islam allows for Christians and Jews to be made into slaves if they are captured in war. After Muslim armies attacked and conquered Spain, they took thousands of slaves back to Damascus. The key prize was 1000 virgins as slaves. They were forced to go all the way back to Damascus.

4) Christians and Jews, who had made a treaty with the ruling Muslims could be made into slaves if they did not pay the "protection" tax. This paying for 'protection' was just like paying a Mafia racketeer! This allowed Muslim rulers to extort money from non-Muslim people.

Muhammad owned many slaves one of them was a black slave by the name of Mahran and he said: "Even if I were already carrying 6 or 7 donkey loads while we were on a journey, anyone who felt weak would throw his clothes or shield or sword on me so I would carry that, a heavy load." From Sirat Al Rasool

If we take Muhammad as an example for all mankind for all times to come then should we also enslave black people and use them as donkeys and beasts of burden?

To all of your points, there is a logical explanation, however, as I see your language in point #4, I will certainly like to react to this.
In many European Countries even, the students coming from outside EEA or EU have to pay fee which is more than the double or triple the amount of what the Europeans pay, why is that? isn't that a modern method of extorting money from people from outside?

In Islam, the tax is collected from Muslims in the form of Zakat. As Non-Muslims are not subject to Zakat, therefore they pay a tax known as Jazya. That is for their protection because defense does not come for free. Tell me if there is not a tax on you for your protection and the services you avail in the west?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Kurds of Iraq

Kurd nahi, tumharay America k Daddy jan ney kaha tha.... kabhi sach bhi bol liya karo ... yehi hay tumhari so called liberal morality

 

[Liberal 000]

Kurd nahi, tumharay America k Daddy jan ney kaha tha.... kabhi sach bhi bol liya karo ... yehi hay tumhari so called liberal morality

This Netanyahu presentation is about Iran!

Obviously if Sadam can use chemical weapons against Kurds his own countrymen then he could have used them to anyone!

Truth hurts!

 

[Sohail Shuja]

My argument is not against specific religion or political ideology. My argument is very simple and it is that a man who believes in something blindly based on faith without the need for logic or reason is a dangerous man. Hitler was a monster but I am sure many people under him were good husbands and fathers but they were just blindly followIng hi. In faith, many people during crusades were good people but they killed because of their religion. My point is bad people will always do bad things without any reason but to make a good person do bad things you need faith.

My point is that bad people will always do bad things and they may rationalize their deeds either based on religion or secularism. You need to rationalize things to get the good people do the bad job. It does not have anything to do with religion or morality. In fact, the first casualty in a war is morality. Period.

 

[Vitamin_C]

There is a distinction that needs to be made between tax and extortion.
Jizya is not a tax, by definition it's an extortion levied on Dhimmies.

Jizya comes from the word Jazaa(contract). So basically it's an amount paid by people of a book so as to not be killed or enslaved. If they fail to pay it then they can be legally enslaved. It is to be collected as sign of humiliation and subjudication.
This is mentioned in Verse 9 of Quran.

Al Razi tafsir of that verse reads: Jizya is to be collected from them in a state of humiliation and shame. The person must come to offer Jizya in person and on foot, not mounted, he must hand it to a seated person while he himself is standing, his bearded is then pulled when he is asked to hand over the jizya and once he pays it, he is pushed away by the scruff of his neck.

The protection tax you are talking about is Jizya Sulhiya but Jizya Anawiya is different it's a forced extortion taken from a non Muslim to spare his head.

There is no defined value or upper limit for this extortion

If they cannot pay the tax then they have to sell their wives and children.

Imagine today if Donald trump told Muslims to either accept Christianity, be killed or pay Jizya... Do you think this is a moral value to live by?

To all of your points, there is a logical explanation, however, as I see your language in point #4, I will certainly like to react to this.
In many European Countries even, the students coming from outside EEA or EU have to pay fee which is more than the double or triple the amount of what the Europeans pay, why is that? isn't that a modern method of extorting money from people from outside?

In Islam, the tax is collected from Muslims in the form of Zakat. As Non-Muslims are not subject to Zakat, therefore they pay a tax known as Jazya. That is for their protection because defense does not come for free. Tell me if there is not a tax on you for your protection and the services you avail in the west?

 

[Vitamin_C]

Religious people do not rationalize on anything, they read what their books say and they do it without thinking. Religion is based on faith not on evidence. Faith by definition means believing something without a rational reason or evidence.

Bad decisions do not come from following evidence and rational thought process, they come from faith, whether it is involving a religion or a political ideology.

My point is that bad people will always do bad things and they may rationalize their deeds either based on religion or secularism. You need to rationalize things to get the good people do the bad job. It does not have anything to do with religion or morality. In fact, the first casualty in a war is morality. Period.

 

[Vitamin_C]

If morality is first causality of war then how many wars were started by Muhammad and his followers? By your own statements Muslims have been raping and mutilating morality for the last 1400 years

My point is that bad people will always do bad things and they may rationalize their deeds either based on religion or secularism. You need to rationalize things to get the good people do the bad job. It does not have anything to do with religion or morality. In fact, the first casualty in a war is morality. Period.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

This Netanyahu presentation is about Iran!

Obviously if Sadam can use chemical weapons against Kurds his own countrymen then he could have used them to anyone!

Truth hurts!

Oh, so was there something going on in the congress in 2002 against Iraq? ducking ur head in sand does not work here...truth hurts..... u know what he did back then against Iraq.... there is no evidence of a nuke in that country, and so the use of chemical weapons.... and even if there was something like this, then why would America care? they don't care if anyone dies of hunger outside US, right?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

There is a distinction that needs to be made between tax and extortion.
Jizya is not a tax, by definition it's an extortion levied on Dhimmies.

Jizya comes from the word Jazaa(contract). So basically it's an amount paid by people of a book so as to not be killed or enslaved. If they fail to pay it then they can be legally enslaved. It is to be collected as sign of humiliation and subjudication.
This is mentioned in Verse 9 of Quran.

Al Razi tafsir of that verse reads: Jizya is to be collected from them in a state of humiliation and shame. The person must come to offer Jizya in person and on foot, not mounted, he must hand it to a seated person while he himself is standing, his bearded is then pulled when he is asked to hand over the jizya and once he pays it, he is pushed away by the scruff of his neck.

The protection tax you are talking about is Jizya Sulhiya but Jizya Anawiya is different it's a forced extortion taken from a non Muslim to spare his head.

There is no defined value or upper limit for this extortion

If they cannot pay the tax then they have to sell their wives and children.

Imagine today if Donald trump told Muslims to either accept Christianity, be killed or pay Jizya... Do you think this is a moral value to live by?

Now I need the specific reference here.... which chapter and what verse and what translation are you reading here?

 

[Liberal 000]

Oh, so was there something going on in the congress in 2002 against Iraq? ducking ur head in sand does not work here...truth hurts..... u know what he did back then against Iraq.... there is no evidence of a nuke in that country, and so the use of chemical weapons.... and even if there was something like this, then why would America care? they don't care if anyone dies of hunger outside US, right?

First of all, thread is not about Iraq invasion
Your tried every arrow in your basket to derail this thread! But failed on every hit!

A nation under dictatorship is always oppression.

If one group is happy the other one is unhappy! In dictatorship the unhappy ones are left with no option but to resist and in turn the happy-ones start crushing them. The unhappy-ones are left with no option but to call outsiders! and whenever outsiders decide to help the unhappy-ones well come them with open arms.... Fault is yours not of outsiders!

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Religious people do not rationalize on anything, they read what their books say and they do it without thinking. Religion is based on faith not on evidence. Faith by definition means believing something without a rational reason or evidence.

Bad decisions do not come from following evidence and rational thought process, they come from faith, whether it is involving a religion or a political ideology.

Well it is your definition of a faith. You cannot generalize it for everyone. However, what may seem as a logical evidence for me may not appear as the same to you. Theory of relativity refers here. To you, it may be a fable that Jesus (PBUH) was given powers to bring dead people back to life. To many of us, it is The Proof. Let us agree to disagree here.

 

[Liberal 000]

Well it is your definition of a faith. You cannot generalize it for everyone. However, what may seem as a logical evidence for me may not appear as the same to you. Theory of relativity refers here. To you, it may be a fable that Jesus (PBUH) was given powers to bring dead people back to life. To many of us, it is The Proof. Let us agree to disagree here.

Why you believe Jesus was bringing dead to life and why you do not believe that Nanak visited heavens? Any logical reason?

 

[Liberal 000]

Now I need the specific reference here.... which chapter and what verse and what translation are you reading here?

You are trying to be dishonest with your own faith!
Do u believe in hadiths or you are just a Quranist?

 

[Sohail Shuja]

First of all, thread is not about Iraq invasion
Your tried every arrow in your basket to derail this thread! But failed on every hit!

A nation under dictatorship is always oppression.

If one group is happy the other one is unhappy! In dictatorship the unhappy ones are left with no option but to resist and in turn the happy-ones start crushing them. The unhappy-ones are left with no option but to call outsiders! and whenever outsiders decide to help the unhappy-ones well come them with open arms.... Fault is yours not of outsiders!

Well, here lies the point my dear..... your Morality is exposed. It is right for you to bomb the hell out of a country and make many innocent lives suffer, just because a bunch of crack-heads were calling you (note again... Kurds are only 15 % of the total population of Iraq), you barge in there, blast everything off, get the contracts of oil for your companies and then say proudly that "Oh, we didn't find the bomb, but we gave them democracy"..... thats freakishly sick !

Conversely, there are millions of people dying of hunger each day, they ask for help from US, but they say its not our job to save lives of those who are needy, we can spend manifold on wars and killing innocents, but we don't give a damn to the people who die of hunder, poverty and disease. That is what your morality is based upon. YOU ARE BUSTED HERE !

 

[Sohail Shuja]

You are trying to be dishonest with your own faith!
Do u believe in hadiths or you are just a Quranist?

You better answer the questions put forth to you
1- Role of Netanyahu in 2002 about invasion of Iraq
2- Read my post #56 up here and respond.
Don't try to freak out

 

[Liberal 000]

Well, here lies the point my dear..... your Morality is exposed. It is right for you to bomb the hell out of a country and make many innocent lives suffer, just because a bunch of crack-heads were calling you (note again... Kurds are only 15 % of the total population of Iraq), you barge in there, blast everything off, get the contracts of oil for your companies and then say proudly that "Oh, we didn't find the bomb, but we gave them democracy"..... thats freakishly sick !

Conversely, there are millions of people dying of hunger each day, they ask for help from US, but they say its not our job to save lives of those who are needy, we can spend manifold on wars and killing innocents, but we don't give a damn to the people who die of hunder, poverty and disease. That is what your morality is based upon. YOU ARE BUSTED HERE !

Ahhahaa... Sorry.... It's not my morality!

It's a morality of a nation state! At least America did not capture and sell Iraqi women and children in markets as Lundis and slaves proves American morality dispite all shortcomings is superior than those who invaded Iraq before!

 

[Liberal 000]

You better answer the questions put forth to you
1- Role of Netanyahu in 2002 about invasion of Iraq
2- Read my post #56 up here and respond.
Don't try to freak out

lol all know Sadam and Netanyahu were enemies... an enemy will always like to destroy his enemy!

 

[famamdani]

Sceince depend only on Ilm aur Ilm ka centre puri Qainat main ek hi he Al-Quran jab tak aap is k circle me reh kar Ilm haasil nahi karain ge you discussed and discussed with out end..................so please Ignore the all media because in reality all sceintist know very well about the own knowlodge and human knowlodge is always have some dark hole...............Best is read and understand The Quran pur Hikmat..............................end the Topic