CALL To BAN DERIVATIVES FROM FINANCIAL MARKETS

crankthskunk

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
JPMorgan_120627_2425x283.jpg


Derivatives are used as Insurance policies by some against financial fluctuations. But they have caused more havoc then providing safety and assurances. Derivatives are futures contracts, forward contracts, options and swaps. Derivatives can be used as an underlying asset. But at times derivatives are used kind of gamble, there are even derivatives based on weather data, such as the amount of rain or the number of sunny days in a particular region.

Derivatives should be used to hedge risk in financial investment, but more often than not they are used speculative purposes.
Credit derivatives, e.g. credit swaps where a bank concerned that one of its customers may not be able to repay a loan can protect itself against loss by transferring the credit risk to another party while keeping the loan on its books. These credit swaps have caused in accumulation of junk assets and undermined the confidence in the financial institutions.


Derivatives Should Be Banned From Financial Markets

By JAMES RICKARDS

The idea that the financial products known as derivatives pose a danger to the financial system is nothing new. Commentators have been pointing this out for years. Most famously, Warren Buffett referred to derivatives as "time bombs" and financial "weapons of mass destruction." Recently a complex derivatives trade caused over $5 billion in losses at J.P. Morgan.

Derivatives are bets between two parties that are made today with a payoff in the future based on the value of some stock, bond, or index. One party will profit if the reference security or index goes up in value and the other party will profit if it goes down. These bets usually settle up every three months based on value at that time, and then a new calculation period begins. There are many variations on this basic pattern, but almost all derivatives involve some form of a bet in which gains and losses are calculated and settled-up periodically.

If derivatives are as dangerous as the commentators suggest, why are they permitted? If they are such a threat to the financial system, why does the size of derivatives bets continue to grow? The answers have to do with several myths the big bank derivatives players have created. These myths are false and distract interested parties from doing what needs to be done to ban derivatives. It's time to demolish these myths once and for all.

Myth No. 1: Derivatives break up risk into parts and allow the pieces to be put into strong hands best able to absorb losses. Financial transactions do involve multiple risks. Even a simple loan can have interest rate risk, credit risk, and foreign exchange risk. The original idea behind derivatives was that these risks could be repackaged into separate financial instruments. In the simple loan example, one party could absorb the interest rate risk, another could absorb the credit risk, and still another could absorb the foreign exchange risk. Since each party specialized in a certain type of risk, it could offer the best prices so that the entire package would be cheaper to the customer than having a single bank absorb all of the risk on its books.

The problem with this simple view is that most derivatives do not derive from an original loan or investment, but are created exclusively to make new bets. Instead of moving risk into strong hands, derivatives actually create risk out of thin air. Risk is not being reduced by derivatives, it is growing exponentially.

Myth No. 2: Derivatives allow markets to get valuable price information about the underlying security or index on which the derivative is based.This process of getting market information from actual trading is called "price discovery." This rationale is heard frequently in the credit default swap marketbasically bets on whether a company or country will go bankrupt. Supporters say that prices in the credit default swap market provide good information about the financial health of countries in distress such as Greece or Spain.

This explanation ignores that fact that such price information has always been available from the underlying bonds themselves. The market doesn't need credit default swaps to tell it Greece is in trouble. The market in Greek bonds shows directly that prices are falling and borrowing costs are going up and that Greece is in financial distress.

In fact, the actual bond market is a much better indicator of financial health than the swap market because bonds are widely held by a large number of investors, while the credit default swap market is tightly controlled by a small number of major bank dealers who set prices in a nontransparent way. The credit default swap market is much easier to manipulate than the underlying bond market and therefore it's easier to create a sense of panic which often benefits the dealers in this kind of credit insurance. Derivatives to not improve price discovery, they make it easier to manipulate markets.

Myth No. 3: Bank management has derivatives risks under control using mathematical models that capture the complex interaction of factors embedded in derivatives trades. This view is laughable on its face given the continual series of notorious derivatives fiascoes from Long-Term Capital Management to AIG to J.P. Morgan and many others.

Yet, this myth is pernicious at a deeper level because many bank managers actually believe it. They have constructed elaborate management tools based on empirically false assumptions about the frequency and severity of bad events and the correlations among them. Risk managers sometimes acknowledge these limitations but then say their tools are "better than nothing." This is false too. Bad tools are not better than nothing. They lead to bad investments with the taxpayers picking up the losses every time things go wrong. It would be more honest to admit what we don't know and limit derivatives until the state of the art improves.

The next time some derivatives proponent says that derivatives reduce risk, increase transparency, and are well hedged, stop them in their tracks and ask if they believe in tooth fairies, Easter bunnies and leprechauns. Actually, it's safer betting on the leprechauns than in the soundness of modern derivatives finance. Since markets seem not to have learned from past disasters, one should expect worse to come.
 

Petrolhead

Minister (2k+ posts)
Banning derivatives!!! Not possible - they are very effective tools to control, manipulate and exploit the global financial system for the interests of the few who effectively control the world. Why would they let anyone ban them?
 
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yes we can see 5 billion loss with effective tools :)
Banning derivatives!!! Not possible - they are very effective tools to control, manipulate and exploit the global financial system for the interests of the few who effectively control the world. Why would they let anyone ban them?
 

Petrolhead

Minister (2k+ posts)
yes we can see 5 billion loss with effective tools :)

5 billion is peanuts as compared to the benefits the bankers have reaped already and will be reaping going forward. It's not about making a profit of a few billions. It's about controlling and exploiting the global financial system.
 

crankthskunk

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
5 billion is peanuts as compared to the benefits the bankers have reaped already and will be reaping going forward. It's not about making a profit of a few billions. It's about controlling and exploiting the global financial system.

I am sure 5 billion are peanuts. But can you count the value of toxic assets hold by the financial institutions around the world? Supported by credit swaps.
Why there is a banking crisis, from USA to UK, from Ireland to Greece, from France to Italy? Even Russian bank recently used the same tactics used by a banking group in the UK to hide its liquidity problems?

Many financial experts now openly oppose this scam of derivatives.
 
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modern.fakir

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
What ? ...Does that mean our beloved [MENTION=24375]AsifAmeer[/MENTION] will be out of a job ? :13: ....Are puts finally check mate ??
 

Ebrahiem

Councller (250+ posts)
Derivative is the "Capitalistic" form of "Democracy". Just like in democracy, majority can choose an i.diot to rule over millions, a bunch of f.ools can derive the price of underlying asset which determines the price of security and then we call it Risk Management. It is just as giving kidney medicine to a liver patient that will destroy both kidney and liver.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Banning derivatives!!! Not possible - they are very effective tools to control, manipulate and exploit the global financial system for the interests of the few who effectively control the world. Why would they let anyone ban them?
yes we can see 5 billion loss with effective tools :)
I think I will be getting along with you very well.. You sound like Rob Kirby of Kirby Analytics. He's the guy who warned in 2009 that JPM is sitting on a $2Trillion UNHEDGED credit swap position. Aur ab masla ye hai k these trades are synthetic.... In theory, these trades were supposed to cancel themselves out in the market cloud. Blue mountain and other funds, took the chips off the table.. Now JPM is caught with its pants down... And no.. its not a $2billion or $5billion or $10billion hole.. Its a $2 TRILLION blackhole... Welcome to the world of Off-Balance sheet SPVs!
http://www.24hgold.com/english/contributor.aspx?article=2244794602G10020&contributor=Rob+Kirby



What ? ...Does that mean our beloved @AsifAmeer will be out of a job ? :13: ....Are puts finally check mate ??
I would love to see derivatives get banned.. Naked derivatives.. I trade derivatives not for the sake of making money but for hedging.

These derivatives are nothing but gambling!!
I wish they were just Gambling.. I mean you'r making Derivatives look like saints! [MENTION=26561]Petrolhead[/MENTION] is right. They are used to control the prices of the whole market in the "money grid"

I think market making should be ban.
yeh market-making ban ki kahan se baat aa gai? lol
 

barhaich

Senator (1k+ posts)
If we ban interest based loans altogether than we'll see how many actuaries (like me) can derive safe hedging options.
 

AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
I wonder if they could even hedge these synthetic trades..
1st of all they are synthetic.
2nd - Trade's sheer positions... $60+ trillions
3rd - too big to fail poker game.


Plus derivatives are way above interest based loans. These are 110% gambles in existence. Its a zero-sum game!
Then mix derivatives up with credit swaps.. And now you have your "tossed salad" in the money-grid!


JP Morgan lost cash because they did not hedge!
 

barhaich

Senator (1k+ posts)
I wonder if they could even hedge these synthetic trades..
1st of all they are synthetic.
2nd - Trade's sheer positions... $60+ trillions
3rd - too big to fail poker game.


Plus derivatives are way above interest based loans. These are 110% gambles in existence. Its a zero-sum game!
Then mix derivatives up with credit swaps.. And now you have your "tossed salad" in the money-grid!

What option can you synthesize without a risk free investment?
 

A.Ali.T

Minister (2k+ posts)
I don't think banks should be prohibited from trading derivatives, but if they do they need to be required to do trades in the open, on public exchanges, not in the private over-the-counter market.

This idea that somehow now banks can't be doing derivatives, even hedging, is really not a good idea. In fact, trading derivatives is a core function of banks, moving derivatives trading out of banks, which are highly regulated, could push the business into less regulated markets.

I think Investment banks should be separated from Commercial banks, and only Investment banks should be allowed to do more complex derivatives trading.

Lastly, I want to say that we only hear about the losses what we don't hear is how much banks have made during the course of trading derivatives.

We must realize that derivatives allow a lot more commerce to take place than otherwise would exist.

Just my opinion!
 
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AsifAmeer

Siasat.pk - Blogger
See I am not completely against derivatives. I have no problem if you are selling a COVERED derivative.. or collateralized derivatives. Hey.. farmers do that all the time.. locking in their harvest's price before its harvested. Oil companies do that.. Lekin whoever is on the short side needs to post collateral for the derivative.

Now you have the Interest SWAP derivatives standing at over $687 TRILLION at the end of 2011.. And this only accounts for Exchange traded getting registered at Bank of International settlements. No one knows where the OTC figure lies.

So when you have an $800 Trillion derivatives market representing a $60trillion asset class... Ofcourse the derivatives will move the prices of the underlying assets..

And that my friend, is where we have the problem.

I don't think banks should be prohibited from trading derivatives, but if they do they need to be required to do trades in the open, on public exchanges, not in the private over-the-counter market.

This idea that somehow now banks can't be doing derivatives, even hedging, is really not a good idea. In fact, trading derivatives is a core function of banks, moving derivatives trading out of banks, which are highly regulated, could push the business into less regulated markets.

I think Investment banks should be separated from Commercial banks, and only Investment banks should be allowed to do more complex derivatives trading.

Lastly, I want to say that we only hear about the losses what we don't hear is how much banks have made during the course of trading derivatives.

We must realize that derivatives allow a lot more commerce to take place than otherwise would exist.

Just my opinion!
 

Doorandesh

Councller (250+ posts)
Brothers as far as I know these derivatives are like gambling and are not allowed in Islam. You can say that there is risk in stocks also. But in stocks you hold an equity while when you invest in derivatives you are not investing into a real business but betting that price of stock or commodity will go up or down. Similarly in short selling you sell a stock before you buy it which does not make any sense. People like to bet and will bet on anything from sports to stocks.
 

crankthskunk

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
If we ban interest based loans altogether than we'll see how many actuaries (like me) can derive safe hedging options.

Well Barhaich, If you are an actuary as you stated, then you know the value of education. I am sure you have spent years in study and work experience, I have absolutely no problems reading your opinion. At least yours comments would be considered and balanced, based on your education.

I can appreciate the hard work it needs to complete the qualifications to become an Actuary. I am glad to see there are some professional like you and @alimohsin52 on this forum, he wrote, he is member of two professional bodies.

You both know how hard and difficult it is to gain these qualifications. Ali Mohsin, knows to become ACA you need 3/4 years practical experience as Articles, where your experience and progress in each specialised field is recorded and approved. Secondly for each of the three exams needed to qualify, you go through study material equal to doing a 3 years degree in one year. A field with a dropout rate of 95% and above. The dropouts are not just ordinary or dumb people but are students with at least 2:i degrees.
Second disadvantage, you are judged on the basis of good old quick exams, not based on course work and assignments. Only one qualification which can better Ali Mohsin's, is the qualification for an actuary, solely based on hard work and dedications it requires to succeed.

I value the comments and criticism of people like you, at least you should know what you are talking about.

IF we ban interest, not only derivatives but many other financial options would be dead and buried, the world would become a more humane place to live for the poor and down trodden.

All this madness because of money and power is created by evil financial systems in the world.

Interest based economy is nothing but a tool of oppressors to rule over the oppressed.
Derivatives are the false sense of security created and maintained by the corrupt financiers. Hedging their bets against the perceived threats, real or imaginary, have given the opportunity to create toxic wealth for the oppressors, backed by the derivatives or so called assurances. But in reality these assets are nothing but junk.
This the problem of almost all big international banks at the moment, who are insolvent for all purposes. Only kept alive by constant flow of quantitative easing by the Western Governments. But for how long? One day the penny has to drop, sooner or later.

They cannot drag this corrupt financial system for long. As they say end is neigh, I think it is sooner than later. It wouldn't happen over night, it is happening gradually.

Most of the wealth in the Western world is phony, based on nothing but toilet paper money. Money which is not backed by anything substantive but promises and worthless securities like derivatives.

How long can you guarantee and secure a non-existing wealth?

Here is a crash dummy course presented by Glen Beck of Fox, showing how phantom money is created, dollar backed by nothing but credit agencies and off course assurances like derivatives etc.

PPP is doing exactly the same by printing insane amount of money, driving down the value of the rupees and destroying the future of Pakistani nation. No wonder the exchange rate of rupees against dollars and other currencies is going down. I have already predicted Rs110 to $1 in near future. We are nearing to Rs100 at the moment, soon it would be near to what I predicted or even higher. PPP had to go, if Pakistan to remain a viable state.

Not much is written and said about it in the talk shows. Not many people understand economy well in the media. There are barely two or three commentators I have seen who look credible. Rest are crooks like Ishaq Dar, who would do nothing good, even if it is their last day on this earth.