Why are we actually killing our immune system -- these guys make sense

[RajaRawal111]

It wiped out around 3% of world population.

That's equal to 210 million people dying in 18 months in 2020-2021. If something like the Spanish flu happens again it will be a crisis like we have never seen before... The system will completely collapse.

But my question was that where did that virus go???
We may still be infected by it every year. But our bodies are immune to it now.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Most of the people who had the virus either died or grew immune to it. Plus they made a vaccine for it

But my question was that where did that virus go???
We may still be infected by it every year. But our bodies are immune to it now.

 

[Vitamin_C]

In poor countries the fight is more complicated because there is another variable which is death from starvation. So they have to balance the number of people who die from starvation vs dying from covid.

But in rich countries they can afford to maximize the number of people saved with social distancing until we have a vaccine.

Doing social distancing temporarily and opening the country again only delays the peak of the virus, not prevent it.

But my question was that where did that virus go???
We may still be infected by it every year. But our bodies are immune to it now.

 

[Eyeaan]

Their facts and arguments are so wrong...

Catching viruses does not always make you stronger. If you catch HIV you dont get stronger, you get aids. Same with Ebola, lyme disease etc. With Covid19 many people who get it wont get stronger, they will die.

The rationale for lock down and precautionary measures is to flatten the curve for managing it better, and not to decrease the numbers of infections (or maybe deaths). Has goalpost been moved?
Given the number of deaths wont be so drastic or extra-ordinary as were projected, and adverse short-term/long-term total economic and health costs of a strict lock down, does the above rationale still hold? That's the pertinent question: Answers might not be easy but it requires a data-driven debate with open minds.

 

[Vitamin_C]

SD can reduce deaths. We learned this during Spanish flu ie St Louis vs Philadelphia.

But it depends on severity and duration of lockdown.

For example lockdown of 2-3 months wont reduce deaths it will just delay the peak of outbreak.

A longer lock down or more strict lock down like the one in China can prevent deaths.

Another strategy could be to delay the peak with a lenient lock down until we have vaccines available. Western countries seem to be doing that because of fast progress in vaccine program.

But from US most people there dont care about evidence or data, people are very arrogent and opinionated. They have to 30% of the worlds cases with over 50,000 dead and growing exponentially, its at this time they want to open everything and trying to pressure Ontario Canada to open as well. These people are insane.

The rationale for lock down and precautionary measures is to flatten the curve for managing it better, and not to decrease the numbers of infections (or maybe deaths). Have goalpost been moved?
Given the number of deaths wont be so drastic or extra-ordinary as were projected, and adverse short-term/long-term total economic and health costs of a strict lock down, does the above rationale still holds? That's the pertinent question: Answers might not be easy but it requires a data-driven debate with open minds.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

یہ ڈاکٹرز جو کچھ کہہ رہے ہیں ..میں بہت دنوں سے یہ ہی بات کہہ رہی ہوں ..لیکن میری سنتا کون ہے

کہاں کہہ رہی تھیں جو کسی کو سنائی دیتا؟

کچھ ہم سے کہا ہوتا، کچھ ہم سے سنا ہوتا۔۔۔۔
مطبل ہے کہ کوئی تھریڈ، کوئی پوسٹ کی ہوتی تو ہمیں بھی کچھ رہنمائی حاصل ہوتی۔ اب میں تو ڈکشنری کھول کر بیٹھا ہوں صبح سے اس ویڈیو کو سمجھنے کے لیئے۔ آپ ہمارا کام آسان نہیں کرسکتی تھیں؟​

 

[Sohail Shuja]

SD can reduce deaths. We learned this during Spanish flu ie St Louis vs Philadelphia.

But it depends on severity and duration of lockdown.

For example lockdown of 2-3 months wont reduce deaths it will just delay the peak of outbreak.

A longer lock down or more strict lock down like the one in China can prevent deaths.

Another strategy could be to delay the peak with a lenient lock down until we have vaccines available. Western countries seem to be doing that because of fast progress in vaccine program.

But from US most people there dont care about evidence or data, people are very arrogent and opinionated. They have to 30% of the worlds cases with over 50,000 dead and growing exponentially, its at this time they want to open everything and trying to pressure Ontario Canada to open as well. These people are insane.

Your arguments carry weight in the sense that herd immunity may not be developed, evident in the case of HIV etc.

Though, you probably are not taking account of the arguments put forth in this video

1- Compare statistics of Sweden, the country which decided to not to go in a lockdown

2- The statistics are grossly misleading. As we still do not have exact statistics of how many people actually are carriers of covid-19, the percentage mortality looks higher. Though, this curve will be flatten as more and more people are diagnosed as active carriers.

3- At 30:00, this doctor has something really worthwhile to listen to, i.e. comorbidity aspect, which is grossly missed by a mile by these statisticians.

4- The technical issues with this lockdown strategy is just something a scientist would never believe in. I mean, people are allowed to go to superstores, which are huge attics with all that HVAC and all those crowds in there. Secondly, as we get our supplies from outside and use as the virus has the capability to survive on surfaces like plastic for three days. It seems virtually impossible not to get in contact with this pathogen.

5- As stated above, the lockdown is a failed technique to stop spread of this virus, rather the results of these lockdowns as witnessed in terms of economic and social aspects are far more drastic.

6- The data is further misleading for the people because of the unavailability of the comparative data for them. These doctors have reasonably argued that in US alone, each year, they have tens of thousands of deaths due to other similar diseases, like influenza.

So, rather than telling people that each day, 1,000 people are dying due to corona in US, we should also educate them that it is usual that around 7,700 deaths take place every day in non-corona related diseases and that, the total death toll each day, after this corona is not 8700/day. The total death rate has just shown a slight increase.

 

[A.jokhio]

Not the doctors or countries world wide recommends or feel the same as media persons...to lock down everyone everywhere...Many countries are not following it...these doctors in this video make sense...

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Same herd immunity developed to save mankind.........thats what the doctors are saying

پاکستان میں ویسے بھی ’’بھیڑ چال‘‘ کی روایت قدیم ہے۔

 

[Vitamin_C]

I have seen some compelling arguments against strict lock-downs by Swedish health officials based on actual facts and evidence...

What these guys seem to be doing is taking the data that is out there and misrepresenting it.

First off we cant compare Sweden with US. Sweden has a world class healthcare system and US is no where close to it. What works for the Swedes might not work for US.

I haven't watched the entire thing, I stopped at around 20 mins but it became clear they are comparing covid19 with common flu which is wrong.

Covid has a different impact from country to country, some countries its affect is similar to bad flu season but if you see countries like Spain, Italy and New York its a very sad situation.

What we learned from Spanish flu is that all flu are not the same and we should not take certain types of flu lightly.

In some countries the death rates of Covid are 10 times higher than flu and the growth factor is higher than Flu. For flu we have herd immunity and vaccine but covid is a new kind of flu so its even more deadly.

Yes there are 50,000 deaths in US so far but the reproduction rate for Covid in US is still hovering around 1 which means the virus is till growing and its going to cause more deaths.

Im not arguing for or against lockdowns, just saying they are not presenting facts in the right way and not pointing out the right data which matters such as reproduction rates of the virus.

As for extrapolating data, I dont know how accurate that is because we do not know if the people who are tested are actually representative of the general population. They didnt give us any details of people being tested.

If they are only testing people who are showing symptoms or who have traveled recently then that is obviously not representative of the general population.

So far I am also not aware of any studies confirming that having the flu means that you are now immune to it.

Your arguments carry weight in the sense that herd immunity may not be developed, evident in the case of HIV etc.

Though, you probably are not taking account of the arguments put forth in this video

1- Compare statistics of Sweden, the country which decided to not to go in a lockdown

2- The statistics are grossly misleading. As we still do not have exact statistics of how many people actually are carriers of covid-19, the percentage mortality looks higher. Though, this curve will be flatten as more and more people are diagnosed as active carriers.

3- At 30:00, this doctor has something really worthwhile to listen to, i.e. comorbidity aspect, which is grossly missed by a mile by these statisticians.

4- The technical issues with this lockdown strategy is just something a scientist would never believe in. I mean, people are allowed to go to superstores, which are huge attics with all that HVAC and all those crowds in there. Secondly, as we get our supplies from outside and use as the virus has the capability to survive on surfaces like plastic for three days. It seems virtually impossible not to get in contact with this pathogen.

5- As stated above, the lockdown is a failed technique to stop spread of this virus, rather the results of these lockdowns as witnessed in terms of economic and social aspects are far more drastic.

6- The data is further misleading for the people because of the unavailability of the comparative data for them. These doctors have reasonably argued that in US alone, each year, they have tens of thousands of deaths due to other similar diseases, like influenza.

So, rather than telling people that each day, 1,000 people are dying due to corona in US, we should also educate them that it is usual that around 7,700 deaths take place every day in non-corona related diseases and that, the total death toll each day, after this corona is not 8700/day. The total death rate has just shown a slight increase.

 

[Eyeaan]

How the COVID-19 Pandemic Could End :Scientific American

How the COVID-19 Pandemic Could End

Recent epidemics provide clues to ways the current crisis could stop

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[نادان]

کہاں کہہ رہی تھیں جو کسی کو سنائی دیتا؟

کچھ ہم سے کہا ہوتا، کچھ ہم سے سنا ہوتا۔۔۔۔
مطبل ہے کہ کوئی تھریڈ، کوئی پوسٹ کی ہوتی تو ہمیں بھی کچھ رہنمائی حاصل ہوتی۔ اب میں تو ڈکشنری کھول کر بیٹھا ہوں صبح سے اس ویڈیو کو سمجھنے کے لیئے۔ آپ ہمارا کام آسان نہیں کرسکتی تھیں؟​

اپنے ہی گھر میں اور کہاں .....آپ نے کونسا سن لینا تھا ..جب اپنے خون کے رشتے سمجھ کر نہیں دیئے .
اتنی سازشی تھیوریاں چل رہی ہیں کہ سر گھما دیا ..ابھی ایک پر یقین کر کے بیٹھتی ہوں تو بازار میں نئی آ جاتی ہے ..خیر ہمیں کیا ..ہمیں گھر بیٹھے پیسے مل رہے ہیں ..اور کیا چاہئے .

 

[Sohail Shuja]

اپنے ہی گھر میں اور کہاں .....آپ نے کونسا سن لینا تھا ..جب اپنے خون کے رشتے سمجھ کر نہیں دیئے .
اتنی سازشی تھیوریاں چل رہی ہیں کہ سر گھما دیا ..ابھی ایک پر یقین کر کے بیٹھتی ہوں تو بازار میں نئی آ جاتی ہے ..خیر ہمیں کیا ..ہمیں گھر بیٹھے پیسے مل رہے ہیں ..اور کیا چاہئے .

گھر آپکا یہ بھی تو ہے نا؟ یا اب نہیں رہا؟


چھوڑیں نادان جی، سیدھی بات کریں کہ اب بڑے لوگوں کے پاس چھوٹے لوگوں کے لیئے وقت نہیں رہتا۔ ارے ہمیں تو فکر لگی رہتی ہے کہ کہیں ہماری نادان صاحبہ کوئی کام کے کام پر نہ لگ گئیں ہوں۔ شکر ہے کہ آپ نے وہم سے جان چھڑائی یہ بتا کر کہ ابھی بھی سازشی تھیوریاں پڑھ رہی ہوتی ہیں۔

اور خون کے رشتے اکثر سمجھ کر نہیں دیتے، کیونکہ ان کے سامنے آپکا بچپن ہوتا ہے اور آپ کبھی بڑے نہیں ہوتے۔ ادھر آپ نے عقل کی ہانکی اور ادھر آپکا کوئی نا کوئی تاریخی کارنامہ نکال کر آپکو بطور نامہ اعمال دکھا دیا جاتا ہے، پھر باقی سب ہنس رہے ہوتے ہیں اور آپ اپنے اندر کے افلاطون کو گلے لگا لگا کر خشک آنسووٗں سے رو رہے ہوتے ہیں۔
یہ ذاتی تجربے کی بنیاد پر کہہ رہا ہوں۔

خیر جناب، یہاں آ جایا کیجیئے اپنے اندر کے افلاطون کے ساتھ ۔ یہاں باقی بھی سارے آپ کے جیسے افلاطون اکھٹے ہوتے ہیں، جنکی گھر میں کوئی نہیں سنتا۔ یہ راجے کو ہی دیکھ لیں، اسکو بھی گھر والے کمپیوٹر پر بٹھا کر آرام سے گھر کے کام کاج کرتے ہیں۔​

 

[نادان]

گھر آپکا یہ بھی تو ہے نا؟ یا اب نہیں رہا؟


چھوڑیں نادان جی، سیدھی بات کریں کہ اب بڑے لوگوں کے پاس چھوٹے لوگوں کے لیئے وقت نہیں رہتا۔ ارے ہمیں تو فکر لگی رہتی ہے کہ کہیں ہماری نادان صاحبہ کوئی کام کے کام پر نہ لگ گئیں ہوں۔ شکر ہے کہ آپ نے وہم سے جان چھڑائی یہ بتا کر کہ ابھی بھی سازشی تھیوریاں پڑھ رہی ہوتی ہیں۔

اور خون کے رشتے اکثر سمجھ کر نہیں دیتے، کیونکہ ان کے سامنے آپکا بچپن ہوتا ہے اور آپ کبھی بڑے نہیں ہوتے۔ ادھر آپ نے عقل کی ہانکی اور ادھر آپکا کوئی نا کوئی تاریخی کارنامہ نکال کر آپکو بطور نامہ اعمال دکھا دیا جاتا ہے، پھر باقی سب ہنس رہے ہوتے ہیں اور آپ اپنے اندر کے افلاطون کو گلے لگا لگا کر خشک آنسووٗں سے رو رہے ہوتے ہیں۔
یہ ذاتی تجربے کی بنیاد پر کہہ رہا ہوں۔

خیر جناب، یہاں آ جایا کیجیئے اپنے اندر کے افلاطون کے ساتھ ۔ یہاں باقی بھی سارے آپ کے جیسے افلاطون اکھٹے ہوتے ہیں، جنکی گھر میں کوئی نہیں سنتا۔ یہ راجے کو ہی دیکھ لیں، اسکو بھی گھر والے کمپیوٹر پر بٹھا کر آرام سے گھر کے کام کاج کرتے ہیں۔​

کیا یاد دلا دیا ...والدین سے کہا کرتی تھی .ہم جتنے مرضی بڑے ہو جائیں آپ کے سامنے بچے ہی رہتے ہیں ..ان کا کہنا ہوتا ..بے شک ..چاہے سو برس کے ہو جاؤ ..
ایسا کب کہا کہ یہ میرا گھر نہیں رہا ..ناراض ہو گئی تھی ..پھر عینی کے منانے پر چلی بھی آئی ..اور ذرا دیکھو تو ..عینی خود غائب ہیں
سچی سچی بتاؤں ..پڑھتی تو ہمیشہ رہی ہوں ..خبریں اور گوسپ بھی تو چاہئیں ہوتی نہیں ...لیکن لکھنے لکھانے کا ویسا موڈ نہیں بن پاتا ..پھر کوئی جانا مانا نظر بھی نہیں آتا جس سے اچھی گپ شپ تھی ..میرے لئے تو یہ فورم وقت گزاری کا ہی ذریعہ رہے ہیں ..اگر وہ مقصد ہی پورا ہوتا نظر نہ آئے تو یو ٹیوب ہی اچھا ..کچھ عرصے ٹویٹر پر بھی جلوے بکھیرے ..لیکن شاید اپنا مزاج نہیں ..وہاں اس طرح رسپونس آتا ہے نہ تعلق بنتا ہے ..اس لئے بس پڑھنے تک اکتفا کرنا رہ گیا ہے
اور ہاں ایک دن راجہ کی پوسٹ پڑھی ..بار بار پڑھنی پڑی ..شاید ان کی آئی ڈی ہیک ہو گئی ہے ..

 

[Sohail Shuja]

کیا یاد دلا دیا ...والدین سے کہا کرتی تھی .ہم جتنے مرضی بڑے ہو جائیں آپ کے سامنے بچے ہی رہتے ہیں ..ان کا کہنا ہوتا ..بے شک ..چاہے سو برس کے ہو جاؤ ..
ایسا کب کہا کہ یہ میرا گھر نہیں رہا ..ناراض ہو گئی تھی ..پھر عینی کے منانے پر چلی بھی آئی ..اور ذرا دیکھو تو ..عینی خود غائب ہیں
سچی سچی بتاؤں ..پڑھتی تو ہمیشہ رہی ہوں ..خبریں اور گوسپ بھی تو چاہئیں ہوتی نہیں ...لیکن لکھنے لکھانے کا ویسا موڈ نہیں بن پاتا ..پھر کوئی جانا مانا نظر بھی نہیں آتا جس سے اچھی گپ شپ تھی ..میرے لئے تو یہ فورم وقت گزاری کا ہی ذریعہ رہے ہیں ..اگر وہ مقصد ہی پورا ہوتا نظر نہ آئے تو یو ٹیوب ہی اچھا ..کچھ عرصے ٹویٹر پر بھی جلوے بکھیرے ..لیکن شاید اپنا مزاج نہیں ..وہاں اس طرح رسپونس آتا ہے نہ تعلق بنتا ہے ..اس لئے بس پڑھنے تک اکتفا کرنا رہ گیا ہے
اور ہاں ایک دن راجہ کی پوسٹ پڑھی ..بار بار پڑھنی پڑی ..شاید ان کی آئی ڈی ہیک ہو گئی ہے ..

تراشیدم، پرستیدم، شکستم

۔۔۔۔ خیر، آپ آگئی ہیں تو یہاں آپکی پوسٹ دیکھ دیکھ کر لوگ کچھ نہ کچھ عقل صالح جذب کرلیں گے۔

والدین والی بات کا کوئی جواب مجھے بھی آجتک سمجھ نہیں آیا اور اسی لیئے آجتک اندر کا افلاطون، بیچارہ سیاست پی کے کی نظر ہی رہا ہے۔

راجے کی آئی ڈی ہیک نہیں ہوئی، اس کے ساتھ دراصل ساتھیوں کی غیر موجودگی میں جو کچھ ہوا ہے، یہ اسکا اثر ہے۔ یعنی بہ قول شاعر کہ: یہ تو جو رات کو پی تھی، اسکا خمار ہے ساقی، آج تو تیری قسم، پی ہی نہیں۔۔۔۔ سمجھ تو گئی ہونگی۔​

 

[نادان]

اچھی بھلی تھریڈ شروع ہوتی ہے .اور فورا ہی ڈی ریل ہو جاتی ہے ..اس سے پہلے کہ کوئی گفتگو شروع ہو .خیر جھانکتی رہوں گی

 

[Sohail Shuja]

اچھی بھلی تھریڈ شروع ہوتی ہے .اور فورا ہی ڈی ریل ہو جاتی ہے ..اس سے پہلے کہ کوئی گفتگو شروع ہو .خیر جھانکتی رہوں گی

اب بھی صرف جھانکنا ہی ہے؟
بھائی کرونا سے ڈرنا نہیں، لڑنا ہے۔۔۔۔ اور یہ لڑائی صرف جھانکیوں سے کیسے لڑی جائے گی؟

اس ہنگامی صورتحال کے پیش نظر، آپ جلد از جلد یہاں دو چار تھریڈز کا انعقاد کیجیئے۔

وگرنہ کہیں راجہ اکیلا ہی نہ رہ جائے بے چارہ، آدھا ہیک ہو چکا ہے پہلے ہی
??? ​

 

[Sohail Shuja]

I have seen some compelling arguments against strict lock-downs by Swedish health officials based on actual facts and evidence...

What these guys seem to be doing is taking the data that is out there and misrepresenting it.

First off we cant compare Sweden with US. Sweden has a world class healthcare system and US is no where close to it. What works for the Swedes might not work for US.

I haven't watched the entire thing, I stopped at around 20 mins but it became clear they are comparing covid19 with common flu which is wrong.

Covid has a different impact from country to country, some countries its affect is similar to bad flu season but if you see countries like Spain, Italy and New York its a very sad situation.

What we learned from Spanish flu is that all flu are not the same and we should not take certain types of flu lightly.

In some countries the death rates of Covid are 10 times higher than flu and the growth factor is higher than Flu. For flu we have herd immunity and vaccine but covid is a new kind of flu so its even more deadly.

Yes there are 50,000 deaths in US so far but the reproduction rate for Covid in US is still hovering around 1 which means the virus is till growing and its going to cause more deaths.

Im not arguing for or against lockdowns, just saying they are not presenting facts in the right way and not pointing out the right data which matters such as reproduction rates of the virus.

As for extrapolating data, I dont know how accurate that is because we do not know if the people who are tested are actually representative of the general population. They didnt give us any details of people being tested.

If they are only testing people who are showing symptoms or who have traveled recently then that is obviously not representative of the general population.

So far I am also not aware of any studies confirming that having the flu means that you are now immune to it.

In fact, I will suggest you to go at about 35 mins of this and you will understand many things which are being hidden in plain sight.

The most significant and compelling point comes at 30:00, which is regarding comorbidity.
US had a death rate of 7700 persons a day (according to CDC 2017 Stats), which explains why deaths in corona virus seems so inflated. The total number of deaths/day has not risen so significantly after this corona outbreak. So, why are these statistics appear to be so frightening? It is because the cases of comorbidity are also counted in corona deaths.

Furthermore, these people of science explain the spread of the disease and why such lockdowns are not so helping. Actually, in order to stop the spread of the disease, people should go into an "individual isolation", rather than these lockdowns. Which essentially means that they should not even touch something which has been touched by someone before. Yet, even if this state is achieved, it is going to lower down the immunity of the body against many other diseases. So, even if you outlive the corona, you are more susceptible to catch another malady after you step out of your "Total isolation".

 

[Vitamin_C]

Their point about comorbidity is nonsense.

If someone gets into a car accident which causes trauma and eventually organ failure which leads to death... Would the cause of death be organ failure or car accident?

What ever the patient dies of whether its pneumonia, stroke or organ failure if it is caused by covid19 the cause of death will be covid19.

There are reports that covid19 deaths in US are still under-reported.

We cannot compare to 2017 because more people are staying indoors which means people are less exposed to other dangers such as car accidents and homicide.

I don't buy their argument on immune system for reasons I already mentioned.

In fact, I will suggest you to go at about 35 mins of this and you will understand many things which are being hidden in plain sight.

The most significant and compelling point comes at 30:00, which is regarding comorbidity.
US had a death rate of 7700 persons a day (according to CDC 2017 Stats), which explains why deaths in corona virus seems so inflated. The total number of deaths/day has not risen so significantly after this corona outbreak. So, why are these statistics appear to be so frightening? It is because the cases of comorbidity are also counted in corona deaths.

Furthermore, these people of science explain the spread of the disease and why such lockdowns are not so helping. Actually, in order to stop the spread of the disease, people should go into an "individual isolation", rather than these lockdowns. Which essentially means that they should not even touch something which has been touched by someone before. Yet, even if this state is achieved, it is going to lower down the immunity of the body against many other diseases. So, even if you outlive the corona, you are more susceptible to catch another malady after you step out of your "Total isolation".

 

[نادان]

اب بھی صرف جھانکنا ہی ہے؟
بھائی کرونا سے ڈرنا نہیں، لڑنا ہے۔۔۔۔ اور یہ لڑائی صرف جھانکیوں سے کیسے لڑی جائے گی؟

اس ہنگامی صورتحال کے پیش نظر، آپ جلد از جلد یہاں دو چار تھریڈز کا انعقاد کیجیئے۔

وگرنہ کہیں راجہ اکیلا ہی نہ رہ جائے بے چارہ، آدھا ہیک ہو چکا ہے پہلے ہی
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حسب دستور آپ اچھے اچھے تھریڈ شروع کیجئے ...میں جن کی طرح حاضر ہو جاؤں گی .انشاء الله