Sunnis and Shias should not question each other

[Vitamin_C]

Islam is not just based on Quran, its also based on Sahih Hadith and Prophets Sunnat and Biography. Hazrat Muhammad gave orders and approved of killings and assasination of people who angered him or whom he didnt approve of, have you ever heard about Asma Bint Marwan who was killed for blasphemy while breasted feeding her child?

The reason why Muslims do these things is because these things are in your religion. Why don't we get this things from Jains? Why dont Christians kill for blasphemy? Because its not in their doctrine.

You can not blame Islam for this; nowhere in Qur'an it is mentioned to kill a person who is Blasphemous or who changes his/her religion.

 

[Vitamin_C]

And is this fair for women? What do women do about their need for sex then? Do women not feel jealousy for their man the same way men do towards women? This is just so misogynistic and wrong on so many levels.

You can have four wifes if you can afford. Islam believes in creating family bonds and does not allow extramarital sex. It is a big topic, lets leave it for sometimes later

 

[Vitamin_C]

Thats obviously not true. Everyone in the West is allowed to have Alcohol, how many are addicted to alcohol or die of alcoholism in that country? I have no body in my friend, family or social circle that has problem even though every one has a drink socially once in a while.

Allow a group of people one cigarette a day and I can guarantee that after few years time most of them would be enjoying a pack of 20 daily.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Seriously dude? If someone is making demands based on threats of eternity in fire, will you defend that by saying, you are not afraid of the threats because you are complying?

So if God-forbid, if someone break into your house, holds a gun to your face and robs you, you will defend the robber by saying, you are not afraid of him because you are complying to his wishes?

And how is he merficul if he wants to burn people for eternity then their skins grows back and then he burns them again. That's not mercy that's barbaric.

You sound like a submissive abused house wife in a bad relationship, who gets beaten up and whipped and then you say you are okay with it because he loves you sometimes. Bro snap out of it.

This is like stockholm sydrome where people find silly reasons to justify their oppressor and kidnappers.

Nothing justifies using fear to coerce people, nothing justifies torture. Anyone who does that is immoral and not a God.

So let me ask that question back at you, if you die and then you realize you were not worshiping the real God, but you were worshiping the devil who fools people based on threats of eternal torture, fear, teaches violence and misogyny. What will you answer for committing shirk? Atleast I will say that I honestly searched for answers and did find the real god so I didn't worship any. How will you justify worshiping the devil?

I am a practicing Muslim, and I know that I am fulfilling at least minimum requirements to be successful in hereafter, hence I have no fear and I believe that Allah is all merciful.

 

[Mughal1]

That's not what I am claiming, that is the law of conservation of energy and also the 1st law of thermodynamics.

What is your evidence for this nonsense? You have neither scientific evidence for it nor logical philosophical arguments to support this statement.

Dear vitamin c, did I say energy does not exist or that laws of nature do not exist? All I am saying is we human beings need to look at things in an over all context that explains things the way they should be explained. You are taking a bit from here and a bit from there and run with it basing your whole way of life on nothing at all which does no good for yourself or anyone else. I wonder, how stupid one can get? In my view overall context is the only vitally important thing one needs to take aboard. Why it is vitally important to do so? Because all the rest depends upon it. All we are discussing is, whether things created themselves or they were created by God. Therefore I am saying that it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they were created by God because their existence cannot be explained satisfactorily any other way. Your question therefore should have been, how it could be proven that they were created by God or that God does exist? Instead you are falling all over the place whereby you are clearly showing that you have no idea at all as to what I am talking about. All you are showing is, you have no understanding of anything at all rather you are utterly confused about this whole thing as to what is going on.

One's real concern if one is sensible enough should be to seek explanation as to how existence of God and creation can be explained and thereby proven beyond any reasonable doubt by way of revelation of God. This is why my explanations are based upon evidences which I explained for you in other threads already. My explanations are philosophical as well as scientific because they tell you philosophy and mechanisms behind the things we observe. Is it not a philosophical and scientific explanation that I am explaining for you the reasons and purposes behind existence of things and the linkages involved that interlink them? You on the other hand are saying we don't know why things exist the way they do. Your replies are nothing more than for sake of it. You want humanity to live in utter confusion like yourself and remain in hell of their own making instead of living by a way of life whereby people have nothing to lose and everything to gain. What a stupid position for a person to take.

You are not being respectful of my time with all that long writing. All those paragraphs you could have explained in 3 lines:

Stage 1: Direct observation
Stage 2: Indirect observation
Stage 3: Using explanation

The problem is that none of the 3 stages apply to god. For example with big bang we cannot observe it cause it happened in the past but we can detect its background radiation and there is math we can do to infer that it happened.

In case of god, you cannot observe it, you cannot detect any of its effects, and there is no mathematical proof or philosophical explanation you can make in its favor. Philosophers have tried since 2000+ years from Greece to China and they failed.

I am expanding my explanations because I can clearly see your inability to understand things. If you could then I will not need to do so.

You are wrong again by putting the cart before the horse by saying there is no evidence for God. I am telling you there is a perfect explanation but you have not yet arrived at the level of understanding things where at you could understand and see the hidden links between God, his creation or his revelation. Till you learn from the quran how to understand things about God and his creation you cannot know anything at all for sure no matter how hard you try. Moreover you can't learn a thing from the quran in its proper context unless first you educate yourself to the level required by the quran for its proper understanding. You cannot even tell me what are some major points that are absolutely necessary to realise before one could even talk about proper understanding of the quran. If you know then please go ahead and explain. I have explained them to you already but I don't think you have paid any attention to them. This is why you cannot even repeat them to me.

All you are doing is throwing nonsense of mullahs, philosophers and scientists at my face despite knowing full well that they are ignorant fools and so are their blind followers like you. You are doing this because these like people are in a huge majority in comparison to number of sensible people who really think things through thoroughly.

We know God is invisible to us but then so many other things are also invisible. Theories which scientists etc put forth and thereby predicted future were also about invisible things till they became verified. Same applies to God that despite being invisible he made his message visible for us about things and their interlinkage as well as their purposes. All we need to do is, verify all of these and we reach the conclusive proof about God and his revelation and creation. This is how utterly invisible links between God, his revelation and creation become obvious. for us. It is like I tell you information about a machine as to what it is, why it is or how it works etc etc to fulfil its purpose etc then you have no reason to doubt my explanation about the machine if you can verify it and you have verified it. Likewise if the explanation given in the quran about the universe works then it is true and if it does not then it is false. The quran explains the purpose for which God has created things including human beings. In the Quran God explains how things fulfil his stated purpose according to his plan and what part humans are suppose to play in his scheme of things. If all this is observed and understood properly in light of his revelation and found consistent then what else you need for a proof beyond reasonable doubt? If you don't learn sense to make proper sense of things then it is your own fault not fault of those who try to help you understand things.

Quran is the only book that claims to be written by God
That's obviously is a false statement, either you are lying or you are ignorant of all the other religious of the world since last 10,000 years.
There are thousands of books, from the book of Mormons to Jewish Bible that claim divinity have you read all of them to come to the Quran?

You cannot claim the quran is not a book from God till you have examined it properly and found faults in it which contradict its own claims. I have read some of the religious holy books and gave you an example of the chrisitian bible and explained for you and others like you as to why it is not and it cannot be word of God. The quran is not a book like any of the existing religious holy books. So it is stupidity of people to categorise it as a religious holy book like any other. Had you managed to understand the quran, you too could not have done this silly comparison. It does not show fault in the quran but in your thinking level as to how far you have studied things to be able to reason them out consistently. Had you read the books you are talking about you could not have made the statement you have made. It shows how silly you are when you argue over things without any basis whatsoever.

The only reason you read the Quran is because you were born in a Muslim family and you have a personal bias towards it just like every other religious person has towards the religion they were born in. Unfortunately, I don't care much for personal bias, feelings and emotions, I need hard proof.

For your information I am not religious at all if anything I am more anti religion than you are. To me the quran is not a religious mumbo jumbo but a book which tells us how to live in this world properly to be proper human beings. I arrived at this conclusion after my long term study of the quran. So your claim that I am a born muslim therefore I am favouring the quran is not true in my case. Look at my explanations of the issues discussed on this forum to realise how wrong you are about me. This shows how quick you are in jumping to wrong conclusions about things.

So what if it is making a claim?
Just because someone or something is making a claim does it mean we should give all claims a special treatment and assume it to be true? This goes against all logic and reasoning. You might as well flush your brain down the toilet if you want to reason like this.

Did I say to you to accept the quran as word of God without studying it properly? No I did not. It is you who seems to be closed minded and following all sorts of nonsense blindly disregarding the consequences just like mullahs, philosopher and scientists and their followers. Had you studied things properly in their proper context , you will have realised why the quran is proof of existence of God and his revelation. Anyone who claims to be an atheist and cannot show how one has arrived at this conclusion properly is a foolish person just as one who claims the quran is word of God yet has never studied enough to show how the quran proves to be word of God.

Regardless of what claim is being made, the default position in every claim is disbelief until the claim is proven to be true. This is a philosophical concept called Burden of Proof.

I know what burden of proof is and what exactly word proof means which you do not as I explained to you in another thread. You just play with words without realising their contextual implications. We have already discussed what default position has to be and why in another thread.

You seem to be foolish enough that you are saying someone else should prove existence of God and existence of his revelation for you whereas God told his messengers to deliver his messages and let people respond to them as they wish and face the consequences. You are willing to take terrible risks that if no one proves things for you according to your liking or baseless requirements then you will not study things for yourself just to be on the safe side. This is how wrong mindset leads such kind of people to their own ruination and that of their own societies. This is the kind of human society you want to bring about and maintain and that is what your fight is about. You and people like you cannot succeed for very long as people wake up to what actual deen of islam is ie a proper way of life for humanity from their creator and sustainer.

QUOTE="Vitamin_C, post: 5955457, member: 28598"]
So as far as we are concerned, Quran is just like any other book with no special status except for sentimental and poetic value unless it is proved beyond doubt that: first a God exist, And that it was this specific book that he wrote. So far none of those have any evidence whatsoever, neither scientific nor philosophical.
[/QUOTE]

Here again you are talking loads of nonsense because you are not willing to study the very book which answers the very questions you and people like you raise. So how can you know for sure whether this books is true or false? If you and people like you will keep talking nonsense against the quranic way of life then soon you and people like you will end up in the fire of hatred or enmity or animosity the the quran is warning people against. In fact you may already be suffering because of what you are thinking and doing. So to be on the safe side my suggestion to you and people like you is, do study the quran properly so that you could benefit from it otherwise there is no end in sight for troublesome existence of humanity.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Did I say to you to accept the quran as word of God without studying it properly?

Well if you are not religious then why the bias towards the Quran specifically? Why do you want to read the Quran for answers and not the 1000s other books that claim divinity? Did it come in your dream that Quran is word of God?

Whether or not you are religious, if you were born in a Muslim family, lived in a Muslim country with Muslim schools, media and govt. Then you are primed to believe in Quran when it comes to divinity and not the 1000s other holy books, you probably wont even bother reading the others. Do you know what priming means?

Priming (psychology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Therefore I am saying that it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they were created by God because their existence cannot be explained satisfactorily any other way.

Isn't that an argument from ignorance? That if earthquake cannot be explained satisfactorily by ancient people then it must be the bull switching the Earth from one of its horns to the other according to them? Your proof of Gods existence is basically an argument from ignorance. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

 

[Mughal1]

Well if you are not religious then why the bias towards the Quran specifically? Why do you want to read the Quran for answers and not the 1000s other books that claim divinity? Did it come in your dream that Quran is word of God?

Dear vitamin c, first of all find out what is difference between religion and way of life in order to understand where I am coming from. This is why your posts are silly because you make claims about things which have no head or tail. You want to talk about religion yet you do not know what religion is. You want to talk about way of life and you don't have any clue as to what a way of life is or what is difference between way of life or culture. You want to talk about science and you have no clue as to what the actual basis of science is, you want to discuss philosophy and yet you have no clue as to what the word philosophy even means. No wonder you are terribly confused. Please study things in a bit of depth and detail.

As for my choosing of the quran, I have explained already for you, why the quran deserves special attention of humanity and not any other book. Again please study the quran as well as other religious scripture and see for yourself if any of them claims to be word of God save the quran, they don't. So why should I waste my time on things that do not deserve to be given time because they do not show relevance to the issue you are raising? If a book or scripture does not even claim to be the word of God then why should I study it as a word God? This does not mean all other books than the quran are worthless. No they are not. It is because they are worth whatever they are relevant to. We need to look at things purposefully so that they prove for us human beings valuable or useful. For example, why should I pick up a history book and read it as a word of God? It is not relevant but that does not mean it is not valuable as a history book either.

Whether or not you are religious, if you were born in a Muslim family, lived in a Muslim country with Muslim schools, media and govt. Then you are primed to believe in Quran when it comes to divinity and not the 1000s other holy books, you probably wont even bother reading the others. Do you know what priming means?

You are right here but only to a degree and only about people who get stuck in the rut along the way. It is because people who undertake journey of learning sense of making proper sense of things and then undertake take journey of discovery they usually dont get stuck in the rut because their main goal is reaching the truth but in a constructive and useful way. They don't run about like headless chickens or destroy everything that is there already because not each and everything in any family or society is utterly useless or harmful or destructive.

We all learn from our families, clans, tribes or wider societies but for some there comes a stage when they get stuck due to obstacle or obstructions or limits placed in their way by their families or wider societies etc etc. This is why sensible people start looking for ways to change things for the better in their families or wider societies. The first thing we need to look for is a better or solid foundation upon which we could persuade each other to base as a family or clan or tribe or wider society. This is why to study things in depth and detail becomes absolutely necessary. Without doing this it is not possible to bring about any change for the better peacefully. Haphazard steps only cause bloodshed and little change in families or clans or tribes or wider societies. If in doubt look at history of bloody revolutions. The quran is a great book to be foundation of a society but this cannot be unless people study it properly to understand it faithfully and then act upon it. It is because the quran is revealed by God to guide humanity to help them unite and therefore be peaceful so that they could progress and be prosperous as a proper human community in the kingdom of God and that way they could appreciate their creator and sustainer.

Isn't that an argument from ignorance? That if earthquake cannot be explained satisfactorily by ancient people then it must be the bull switching the Earth from one of its horns to the other according to them? Your proof of Gods existence is basically an argument from ignorance. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Anything we think or do starts from our ignorance and it is because we are born not knowing a thing. This is why our life journey is a journey of discovery. Although we are not born learned nonetheless we are not created to know each and everything about each and everything in all its possible detail. This however does not mean we cannot know or do anything at all. God has created us for a purpose so to fulfil that purpose he has given us a book to help us know things we need to know and he has given us bodies and things to use to think and do what we need to do in order to fulfil our God assigned task or mission or goal.

To confirm or certify or verify or validate whether the quran is actual revelation of God or not, all humans can do is study the quran and the real world realities as far as it is possible for them and see if they all prove to be consistent with each other or not. If they are then the validity of the quranic claim is proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

Here if you like we depend upon circumstantial method of proof and proving as we depend upon balance of probabilities for our decision to accept or reject the quran as a word of God. This means in our study the more points we find in the quran which could not have come from any other source than one true God then we have no reason not to believe the quran is actual revelation from God. In my view as far as I have studied the quran it has many such points which I have explained in my writing about the quran. Others can learn them as well as add to them. For a detailed explanation of things about the quran, deen of islam and pakistan see HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE.

Finally if you will go back to the other threads and posts in which we have already discussed some major points you will find them very helpful. I have very little time on my hands for the time being to have full discussions with individuals because I am working on a project about the quran.

meanwhile regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Argument from Ignorance meaning
Bhai aap philosophy k bari bharkain maarte hain me ne aap se eik aasan sa sawal kiya hai. Argument from Ignorance eik philosophical term hai, kya aap is term ka matlab jaante hain?

Argument from ignorance is par click kerain aur parhain, philosophy ki bari bharkain marte hain laikin aap ko philosophy ka abc nahi pata.

Jo aap baat kar rahe hain k agar hamare pass kisi cheez ki ignorance ho ya kisi baat ka saboot ya knowledge na ho tou aap apni marzi ki explanation naha bana sakte kyu k yeh argument from ignorance ban jate hai.

Examples of arguments from ignorance
When ancient people didn't understand certain phenomena like what causes lightning, they made up explanations that made sense to them that its probably because a God is angry and he is throwing lightning bolts from the sky. We know that they were wrong, why should we repeat the same logical mistake?

During WW2 American fighter planes flew over lost tribes of pacific Islands, sometimes they would drop food crates for the wild people. Many decades later Americans officially made contact with these lost tribes and went to their Island they found that they had made idols of their fighter aircraft and had been worshiping them as gods. All those are arguments of ignorance, where people did not have enough information or evidence to explain a phenomena and despite of this they made up an argument that made the most sense to them. That's why an argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy.

Your Argument for god is also an argument from Ignorance
Is hy tarha se hamay is baat ka koi evidence nahi k yeh kainat kaha se aye. Hum bigar evidence apni sense laga k apni marzi ki explanation nahi bana sakte. Its a logical fallacy in philosophy called argument from ignorance. Your whole argument for God is illogical and based on a logical fallacy.

Mei ne aap ki argument samaj li hai aur me aapko bata raha hun k mantaky tor p aap ki baat me koi logic nahi.

Any argument you present has to be free of any logical fallacies otherwise any reasonable person will not accept that argument.

So far we have only found evidence to confirm big bang, but we have no evidence of what happened before big bang, we cannot say it was god, or multiverse or simulation or any other explanation until we have enough evidence to make a claim. How are you claiming it was god?

The wild pacific islands claimed the American fighter jets were Gods, the greeks claimed lighting is caused by angry gods throwing down lightning bolts, the ancient Japanese believed that earthquakes were caused by movement of giant fish that carries earth on its back, you believe that universe was created by God. All these arguments are correct, in a world where arguments from ignorance are accepted to be logical. But not in this world.

This is the argument you made for God:
"Therefore I am saying that it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they were created by God because their existence cannot be explained satisfactorily any other way."

Just like the ancient Greeks, the pacific Islanders, the ancient Japanese who could not explain their phenomena in any other way, your argument is also a text book example of argument from ignorance and I am going to add it to my collection of illogical arguments so I can use it as an example of an argument from ignorance in future debates with others.

Anything we think or do starts from our ignorance and it is because we are born not knowing a thing.

 

[Mughal1]

Bhai aap philosophy k bari bharkain maarte hain me ne aap se eik aasan sa sawal kiya hai. Argument from Ignorance eik philosophical term hai, kya aap is term ka matlab jaante hain?

Argument from ignorance is par click kerain aur parhain, philosophy ki bari bharkain marte hain laikin aap ko philosophy ka abc nahi pata.

Jo aap baat kar rahe hain k agar hamare pass kisi cheez ki ignorance ho ya kisi baat ka saboot ya knowledge na ho tou aap apni marzi ki explanation naha bana sakte kyu k yeh argument from ignorance ban jate hai.

When ancient people didn't understand certain phenomena like what causes lightning, they made up explanations that made sense to them that its probably because a God is angry and he is throwing lightning bolts from the sky.

Is hy tarha se hamay is baat ka koi evidence nahi k yeh kainat kaha se aye. Hum bigar evidence apni sense laga k apni marzi ki explanation nahi bana sakte. Its a logical fallacy in philosophy called argument from ignorance. Your whole argument for God is illogical and based on a logical fallacy.

Mei ne aap ki argument samaj li hai aur me aapko bata raha hun k mantaky tor p aap ki baat me koi logic nahi.

Dear vitamin c, again you are not looking at things objectively, start looking at things purposefully in context because nothing makes any sense otherwise whatsoever if we have no useful context for it. Not only that I have also made very clear for you the human limitations and how far we humans can go to answer the question of existence and guidance of God etc. This answer about existence of God and living by way of life advised by God is vitally important for us to realise for our own sake so that we could have unity, peace, progress and prosperity as a proper human community in the kingdom of God.

You are failing terribly to realise this point I am making repeatedly for you. By following my way of reasoning we humans have a great possibility of having a great life in this world as well as in hereafter whereas following your way of reasoning we stand to lose everything and nothing at all to gain. We are both approaching the issue from the opposite ends but my approach is beneficial and yours is destructive and you are not realising this point. Why my approach is beneficial? It is because I am saying let us assume a God and believe in God even if there is none just for argument sake and live by his advised way of life and keep expanding our knowledge at the same time as far as we can. If at the end of the day we find there is no God which is impossible yet we have not lost anything at all because the way of life the quran tells us even if it is not from God is the best possible for living in this world which none can challenge unless one is utterly ignorant like mullahs and their blind followers. Therefore unless you too are blind due to darkness of ignorance and don't want to work hard to learn things you need to learn to understand the quran properly you have no choice but to accept the quran and fsupport its way of life for the good of each and every person in the world.

Let me try to explain it a bit more for you as to what your approach is, because I don't think you really understand what are the terrible implications and consequences of approaching things your way. In a way you are saying, let us not believe in existence of God and his guidance even if God does exist and so does his guidance in form of the quran till we have such a concrete proof of existence of God and his guidance wherein there is no room for any kind of doubt at all. This is not an approach at all because this way one can never reach the end conclusion with 100% certainty at all no matter what the case and no matter how long we humans live. We humans can never be 100% sure about anything at all unless we can verify something permanently because each time we lose awareness about something doubt creeps in. We cannot be 100% sure even about our own very senses upon which we rely 100% for our understanding of all the rest of things. This is why we must be practical because we can never be realist because we can never know actual reality 100%. All we can do is, do our best to be as close to reality as we can get or we end up destroying ourselves otherwise. In other words looking at the world your way serves no useful or beneficial purpose for humnaity at all. If it does then please explain in detail as to what are the benefits for humanity in going about things your way? This is why even if we are accepting the God of gaps we are still better off than not accepting God and his guidance and living like animals.

If you examine your stance, you are suggesting that people continue living as they like till we find out things we can never find out the way you want them found out. This is what we can avoid if we follow the way I am suggesting. So look at things in this context in detail or the question arises, can we humans live in this world in chaos with that sort of approach? If we can then be my guest and carry on but if we cannot then we must not adopt that way of looking at things because it leads no where other than chaos, confusion and anarchy . If these people whose references you take so seriously were right about things then we will not be in the mess that we are in. It is because people have personal interests and most have wrong interests and agendas like you therefore the world is the way it is ie a harmful and destructive place. It is because you people cannot think beyond your own personal or self interests or advantages or benefits therefore you are happy with the way of life that is currently adopted by humanity. I want people to change their this way of life for the better one whereby we all can live a much better life. This way we can avoid chaos, confusion and anarchy forever. This is why in a way your call is an invitation to darkness of ignorance and self destruction instead of a call to light of knowledge.

What I am saying is, let us live by the book which is the only book in the world today that claims to be from God and there is nothing wrong in it if we really study it properly as sensible individuals as it ought to be studied. This gives us a chance or an opportunity to live a great life and it does not stop us from keep exploring things and adding more and more evidences or weight to this approach. This way we can live a great life as a community provided we educate each other and look after each other really well.

On the opposite side is your approach, whereby we humans can never search out things about God all by ourselves no matter how hard we try and therefore we can forget a better way of life for good which takes us out of troubles and problems we have in our lives. What you and others claim are mistakes in the quran, they are simply put our own human misunderstandings due to our lack of knowledge about things. I know this because I have explained away many of these things and more will be explained by me or people like me as time goes on. Hopefully it will not be very long before others also decide to adopt my approach in this regard. It is because my approach is a win win approach whereas your approach is a lose lose approach. The reason is your approach has no end worthy of any one's time because your whole approach is to get God and his guidance out of minds of people and leave them in confusion to suffer painfully and die in desparation. This is why your approach leads people to self destruction. In my view you are trying to do the impossible. On one hand you claim to be atheist and on the other you want to carry on searching for God makes no sense.

As for your claims about mistakes in the quran, I asked you some questions to help you get out of your confusion in this regard ie to learn what is a way of life and what is a religion and why the quran is a completely different book than what is in minds of people including you. Your confusion concerning the quran is due to you own lack knowledge about how to understand the quran properly. Many people think understanding the quran is a problem because it is in arabic. This is not true, why not? Because think about how many people in the world truly know even their own so called mother tongue properly. People only know the words which they find helpful in their daily living within their own very limited world view. It takes a life long time and very hard work to reach the stage of knowledge from where I am trying to explain things for others to help them become aware of things of which they are not aware. Did you see many people taking part in discussions we are having? No, why not? Because most are affraid of losing their comfort zone. This is not due to problems with the quran but due to their fear of losing their comfort zone which they have created for themselves and which is not good for them but is very harmful and destructive for them.

The other thing you have not taken aboard is the idea of using the quran as proof of existence of God and his guidance. You are dismissing the quran as if it has no value at all for humanity because you think no matter how good the quran is for humanity it can never be proven as word of God. But as I have explained in detail for you the problem is not with the quran but your own wrong approach to the quran. You think it is nothing special that no other book like the quran exists today and never did for last 15 centuries when people have never ceased writing better and better books.

You do not think the quran is the intellectual basis for all things including philosophy and science because you have not yet attained the capability of understanding the quran the way it needs to be understood. I have explained for you how the quran is basis for each and everything as a stand alone book because all other information needs basis or criterion for its acceptance. Without this benchmark or yardstick nothing can have much value at all. It is because all human works are prone to human errors and biases or prejudices or negative discriminations etc. People including you have not yet realised the quran is like a complete jigsaw puzzle which needs first putting together by people themselves and only when it is build properly and ready then it can be used as criterion for judging all other information from any and every source of information.

I say your responses are ignorance based, ecause as I have repeatedly explained to you that your way of looking at things is utterly wrong because you fail to take into account the very things you reject for the proof of existence of God. For example, you take words of mullahs, philosophers and scientists about the quran and other things yet you are unwilling to do the same when someone tells you the true meanings of words used in the quranic text. Your point is that what these people say can be verified independently yet you are not prepared to listen to anyone that what the quran claims can also be verified independently. However you are not willing to examine it at all because you have this false idea in your head that God cannot send a message to his human creatures. Had this been true the issue of God will have been decided long time ago between educated people. This is why no atheist dare claim what you claim ie God cannot reveal his message to people. If he can then that message does need to be studied properly to decide the issue for good. If you accept it is possible that God can reveal his message to humans than the quran can prove its divine origin for those who have learned how to study the quran properly. This is why I have explained for you how the quran can prove its Godly origin just in case one day penny drops and you do realise God can reveal his message to human beings and he has and it is waiting for humans to approach it appropriately.

Reading the quranic text in its proper context is absolutely necessary for its proper understanding otherwise each and every word of it has multiple meanings which leads to confusion. For example, you can try and tell me what is meaning of word BAIT in quranic context and why it has that meaning? How many other meanings word bait has and why? if one cannot interpret the quran correctly just by knowing a meaning of a word then that means one has to learn a human language really well to undersatnd language of the quran. This is why even arabs cannot understand the quran because they only know their language as far as they know it but not to the level the quran requires of them.

Moreover there is no way we can go beyond set limits at all when it comes to our journey of learning about things. We start from utter ignorance about knowledge of things and even at the end of our lives no matter how much we have learned we still have a very limited knowledge about things. This is why we need any and every explanation that helps us get through life the best it can, particularly through the period of utter darkness in our lives. In other words it is not easy to live in this world in state of total doubt and uncertainty. This is why we are bound to or naturally predisposed to bringing some kind of sense to all this confusion.

For the very same reason we come up with our own explanations as much as we can about things because you cannot have things any other way as far as explanations of things are concerned. All you can do is either accept an already existing explanation that has reached you or come up with your own. For example, since the day you have been born did you ever get any explanation but your own? Explanation is a mental process that has to arise from within one's own mind to begin with. All we can do is share our own explanations with each other and see which of them is better for our acceptance to live in this world the best we can a purposeful life.

However you are simply learning dictionary definitions of things and sticking by them because you do not have over all picture of things in your mind yet. May be one day penny will drop if you are lucky enough. As I said already you are looking at each and everything as individual or independent of all else and waiting for an over all picture to emerge but I am looking at details of things within a particular context for the reasons I have already explained. It is because to me stability of humanity is vitally important but for you humanity can go to hell, you will wait till cows come home. All your posts in which you criticise the quran or deen of islam on this forum due to ignorant mullahs in light of my explanations prove to be fake and superfluous. It is because your concern for humanity is not real so you have chosen wrong way of investigating things. What you are saying is humanity can suffer painfully till you find the truth as it suits you and then you will try to get over all context of things. If your concern was real for well being of humanity then you will not have chosen to investigate things your way because that is a destructive for doing things, instead you will have chosen my way of looking at things. So you can see why I think you and people like you have a lot to learn yet. Hopefully you do for sake of both of us because only and only together we can build a better place for us otherwise it has to be either you or me situation always so wars wars between us human beings cannot be gotten rid of.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I think you are just wasting my time. I keep asking you why I should believe there is a God, you give me no answer and just continue 'assuming' that there is a God.

If humans are limited in intellect, that's not evidence for God, that's just evidence for lack of human intellect. How do you connect that to God? Are you making an argument from ignorance again as I talked about on my last post?

If you cannot comprehend God with your limited intellect then how do you know that God even exists?

Dear vitamin c, again you are not looking at things objectively, start looking at things purposefully in context because nothing makes any sense otherwise whatsoever if we have no useful context for it. Not only that I have also made very clear for you the human limitations and how far we humans can go to answer the question of existence and guidance of God etc. This answer about existence of God and living by way of life advised by God is vitally important for us to realise for our own sake so that we could have unity, peace, progress and prosperity as a proper human community in the kingdom of God.

 

[Mughal1]

I think you are just wasting my time. I keep asking you why I should believe there is a God, you give me no answer and just continue 'assuming' that there is a God.

If humans are limited in intellect, that's not evidence for God, that's just evidence for lack of human intellect. How do you connect that to God? Are you making an argument from ignorance again as I talked about on my last post?

If you cannot comprehend God with your limited intellect then how do you know that God even exists?

Dear vitamin c, your question makes absolutely no sense. You asked me for proof of existence of God and I told you the quran is the proof of God's existence. You are dismissing the quran without knowing how it proves existence of God as well as its own divine origin. I have also explained to you in detail the fact that our existence is proof of God's existence because nothing can come from absolute nothingness. I also explained for you the fact that simple a thing cannot change all by itself into a complex thing. If its origin is as a simple thing then something has to act upon it to make it into a complex thing otherwise it has to remain simple as it always was. Likewise whatever starts as complex if nothing acts upon it then it has to stay the way it is. This is why we have no choice but to accept existence of God who has to be much more complex than what he has created because he managed to create the universe as a simple thing to become a complex thing due to his programming of it as we clearly observe it.

This in my view is a better explanation of existence of God as well as of whatever God has created and this is how we observe things. No other explanation so far makes any sense at all and none will other than the one I am explaining. The point you and people like you need to realise is that ever existing being be it God or the universe has to stay the way it is forever otherwise it cannot be called permanent or ever existing being or thing. For someone or something to change needs external force, this is why whatever requires external cause cannot be permanent or eternal. This is why relationship between God and creation makes perfect sense. God cannot change but his creatures can because he can make them change by programming them. You on other hand along with people like you think, original cause has to be something as simple as possible and that is a foolish idea because if a simple thing can change into a complex thing all by itself then how can it be simple? Try and explain it if you can. I don't think it is explainable.

BTW, I am not wasting your valuable time it is you who is wasting his own time by not thinking and learning things that you should learn and ponder over. It is you who is arguing against the quran and deen of islam without really knowing anything about the quran and deen of islam. All your arguments are against what mullahs therefore philosophers and scientists make of the quran and islam who are as ignorant and foolish as you are. This is why I put all scientists, philosophers and mullahs who talk nonsense about the quran and isam in the very same category. It is because people need to understand the quran properly by themsleves before they say anything about it.

I asked you to explain some things for me if you have studied the quran properly and you have failed to say anything about it. All I am doing is asking you to study the quran properly before you talk about it so that you do not talk nonsense about it.

regards and all the best