u must be living on another planet..
in pakistan if a christian converts a muslim he will die so will the convert.
there is no freeddom in any muslim country and i can vouch for that as a muslim .. we go to other countries and complain that we muslims are being harrassed and not allowed to practice our faith yet a hindu,christian or sikh in pakistan will die if he complains..
atensari
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
atensari
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Pakistan is not a secular state. Co-called secular states are hypocrites. Babari Moqsue, Golden temple, Gujrat riots, Church and Christens burning incidents in India. Ban on Minarets and Hajab in European countries. Pure Hypocrisy.
Bret Hawk
Senator (1k+ posts)
I need to see some of your elaboration on one of the highlighted premises of your post;
1) Islam as perceived by you deeply flawed like all religions?
- May I request you to kindly explain that what elemental aspects of faith and articles of it youve found to be deeply flawed and in what sense? Based on rational reasoning or in social context of the so called modern world?
Your second proposition as surmised by you is simply an indication of your poor or simply no knowledge at all of Islamic Jurisprudential principles.
The doctors of Islamic laws differ on the eventual status of an apostate / renegade in Islam. The classical and post-modern juriconsults of Islamic Shariah have differing opinions on this issue which can broadly be summarised into two categories;
- Since retracting from the divine faith of Islam is tantamount to an open rebellion and to show the defiance & disgust on its teachings and principles therefore that renegade commits the sin of a blasphemy and hence should be tried for the capital punishment under the set criterion of Islamic injunctions.
- Those individuals (Apostates) who are not involved in those activities which are presumed to be maligning, conniving and actually partaking in conspiracies against the interests of an Islamic state and its majority of Muslim populace will not be subjected to the trial and hence will be let free to practise and profess his / her newly adopted faith.
Now having presented the two broad based categories of opinions of Shariah Doctors, I know that your natural response would be the viability or non availability of the second option to be exercised in majority of the current so called Muslim states. Therefore I would suggest you, like other sceptics / haters of Islamic faith, to kindly try to differentiate the faith of Islam in its true theoretical essence and its supposed defective applicability in the so called Muslim states of the current world where the variance will glaringly be visible and hence will provide you with distorted meanings of those lopsided practises.
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there are few things sorely missing in your long reply.
1. i am not a hater of islam. hater/sceptic should be replaced by sceptic only. if i were to hate islam, i clearly hate my own religion hinduism much more.
2. all your points/answers are theoretical in nature. what islam says is a matter of debate. what muslims and muslim countries do is not. if not even one muslim country can meet your standards of what islam is then there is certainly an issue at another level.
Now accepting this fatal failure mentioned above, let us look only a theoretical critique. if i were to critique islam or any other religion the natural starting point is "Karl Marx". whether you agree with marxism or not, he has effectively analyzed and demolished religion in his writings.
now coming to your query about fatal flaws in islam, i dont want to elaborate on any, becuz it will be like a he said/she said argument. but let me make it clear that i have sincere doubts on what islam has to say about womens rights, freedom of speech and thought (blasphemy et.al.), equality of rights for all beings (including non-muslims) etc. etc. as i said if i start from marx i can make much better critiques but that requires time to set up those arguments.
coming to your explanation of apostasy laws, the point # 1 is outright stupidity which i dont even want to argue. the second point which seems more reasonable is the one which is more malicious. first of all are you rebelling/conniving ... against islamic state or majority muslim people? there is a difference between the islamic state and its people. anyways i already feel weak here without using marx's historical materialism". i hope you can read about these further urself and convince urself. let me just summarize saying that both ur explanations are bogus and can be critiqued very easily.
1. i am not a hater of islam. hater/sceptic should be replaced by sceptic only. if i were to hate islam, i clearly hate my own religion hinduism much more.
2. all your points/answers are theoretical in nature. what islam says is a matter of debate. what muslims and muslim countries do is not. if not even one muslim country can meet your standards of what islam is then there is certainly an issue at another level.
Now accepting this fatal failure mentioned above, let us look only a theoretical critique. if i were to critique islam or any other religion the natural starting point is "Karl Marx". whether you agree with marxism or not, he has effectively analyzed and demolished religion in his writings.
now coming to your query about fatal flaws in islam, i dont want to elaborate on any, becuz it will be like a he said/she said argument. but let me make it clear that i have sincere doubts on what islam has to say about womens rights, freedom of speech and thought (blasphemy et.al.), equality of rights for all beings (including non-muslims) etc. etc. as i said if i start from marx i can make much better critiques but that requires time to set up those arguments.
coming to your explanation of apostasy laws, the point # 1 is outright stupidity which i dont even want to argue. the second point which seems more reasonable is the one which is more malicious. first of all are you rebelling/conniving ... against islamic state or majority muslim people? there is a difference between the islamic state and its people. anyways i already feel weak here without using marx's historical materialism". i hope you can read about these further urself and convince urself. let me just summarize saying that both ur explanations are bogus and can be critiqued very easily.
Bret Hawk
Senator (1k+ posts)
For sure I cant fully read the state of your mind and what is inherent in your heart with regards to the sanctity of revealed faiths of the world and especially Islam so Ill leave that matter for future's dispensation in order to make any feasible assessment according to my own understanding.
Of course Ive alluded to his fact in my post and hence can only marvel at the level of your apprehension and understanding which seems to be devoid of its cogency due to the veils of extreme scepticism.
Hmm So for a prolegomena youve chosen that personality whose own theories never withstand the test of time, even less than a century, and durability in the just concluded last century hmm another smart and intelligent reference point youve conjured up no doubt. And by the way remember youre pitting Mr Marxs failed and defeated ideology with those established ideologies of faiths which still have the strong following among the masses and some selected line of profound intellectuals of this world from the birth of the humanity itself till this day. The lesser I say it the better to save the sanctity of your own Critical & Sceptic mind for sure.
Alright again a very subjective and open-ended your critical points are and I wonder from where to begin but let me try to enumerate some points for you so that it can serve for you and the likes of you as refresher points so that it might help your perplexed mind to focus on the hey discerning issues rather than to delve in to hollow rhetoric points;
- Women and Men carry equal rights according to the teachings and principles of Islam and when it comes to the equality of their rights then one should also consider the dissimilarity of those two sexes as well.
- And therefore by keeping in mind the dissimilarities of Men & Women Islamic laws deals with them according to their own needs by also visualising their strong and weaker points of their physical structures and psyches.
- Freedom of speech and thought has some impediments according to the Islamic teachings? I think you havent learned the advanced, developed and highly refined Muslim civilization of the Middle Ages when majority of Muslim worlds intelligentsia used to adopt the physical and theoretical sciences of not only your region but from the Western regions of Greece, Rome and Byzantine as well.
- I think you have heard about that famous adage of Freedom of speech ends where the boundary of someones sanctity startsIsnt it? So please you have to keep this prime example in your Critical and Sceptical mind as well before you broach on further points of this matter.
- And who has given you this feigned and ridiculous impression that the rights of Non Muslims are not to be guarded off and respected in an Islamic state? Remember Ive told you earlier to stick to the theoretical and principled stance of Islam rather than to dwell on the corrupt and deviant practices of the past and present in order for you to analyse the concerned issue with more clarity and legibility.
- And if youre expecting a highly speculative and ideal concept of Platonic love for the blasphemers and Non Muslims then of course youre making a mockery out of your own rational sense and therefore would not even expect to have any counter argument from my side.
No the Point 1 reasoning of some Islamic experts of Shariah Law is not an outright stupidity, although I do have my difference of opinion on this point, but the sweeping statement of yours indicates the currents of your mind which works in extreme limits despite of your claims of possessing the state of refined rationality and focused nature. Point 2 of the reasoning sounds reasonable to you but malicious as well? May I enquire about the ambivalence and paradoxical nature of your thought here which sounds ridiculous to me by the way?
And yes try to work against the interests of any state or against the communities of any said state of your dwelling and lets just wait how much patience and indifference the concerned incumbents of that said state show to you in return, just wait and see sir. Yes according to the tested modern theories of Political Science of this current world, State and its inhabitants have two separate entities and the separate sinister plans can be carried out against two or even one of them at any given time. So your point of contention sounds more absurd and ridiculous to me than the other way round.
Sure bring it on sir I would love to see that how you can bring down those two points of reasoning by utilising the Tools of your Critical Reasoning the traces of which Ive encountered and subjected to some sort of enlightenment in the lines of your post so far.
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Mr bret hawk, please write simple english. my english is not refined enough to understsnd you very well. next, there are something you need to understand about marx before you shoot your mouth. i clearly mentioned that you may disagree with his ideas about how things should be. the part of marx that no reasonable person can disagree with is his critique of other extant systems. in fact if you wanna play this game that marx is irrelevant, lets leave him aside and try using european enlightenment ideas, maybe rousseau or hume or adam smith. i just choose him because he is my favourite. but you atleast cannot argue that the enlightenment philosophers are irrelevant as the ruling socio-economic system of today (i.e. capitalism) pays tribute to these people.
anyways all ur defences of islam are very poor, men & women, freedom of speech , blasphemy etc. any self respecting social scientist can bump of those arguments. for gods sake the quran even tells men how to beat their wives. need i say more. and the freedom of speech and sanctity of other is another red herring. who is to decide where the sanctity of other begins or ends. as i said these are very detailed arguments which i neither have the time nor the energy to disprove.
lastly about the apostasy thing, i still cant for the life of me understand what you have written. but trying my best, let me try a simple e.g. if tomorrow I as a muslim citizen of any one of the 56 islamic states think that buddhism is a better religion and change my own. also i actively propagate buddhist ideas to others in my society. how am i conspiring against the population. I may be conspiring against the state though, as he state may be using islam to keep its population under control. so i pointed out the difference. basically if you dont know the idea of "historical materialism" I cant argue with you.
lastly if u think the koran is error free let me take a few cheap shots. I am personally only interested in the politics of the koran, not in other things. but if i include those other things in my critique, I can point to numerous logical and scientific errors in the koran.
P.S. i forgot about islam's ringing endorsement of slavery and war booty collection and its hatred towards homosexuality.
anyways all ur defences of islam are very poor, men & women, freedom of speech , blasphemy etc. any self respecting social scientist can bump of those arguments. for gods sake the quran even tells men how to beat their wives. need i say more. and the freedom of speech and sanctity of other is another red herring. who is to decide where the sanctity of other begins or ends. as i said these are very detailed arguments which i neither have the time nor the energy to disprove.
lastly about the apostasy thing, i still cant for the life of me understand what you have written. but trying my best, let me try a simple e.g. if tomorrow I as a muslim citizen of any one of the 56 islamic states think that buddhism is a better religion and change my own. also i actively propagate buddhist ideas to others in my society. how am i conspiring against the population. I may be conspiring against the state though, as he state may be using islam to keep its population under control. so i pointed out the difference. basically if you dont know the idea of "historical materialism" I cant argue with you.
lastly if u think the koran is error free let me take a few cheap shots. I am personally only interested in the politics of the koran, not in other things. but if i include those other things in my critique, I can point to numerous logical and scientific errors in the koran.
P.S. i forgot about islam's ringing endorsement of slavery and war booty collection and its hatred towards homosexuality.
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We all must get on the right side of the divine rule of law or we will carry on behaving like animals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TqPVfiWabw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TqPVfiWabw&feature=related
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Bret Hawk
Senator (1k+ posts)
[MENTION=19074]jujuju[/MENTION]
I can feel the paucity of arguments from your responses so far. Thats why its recommended not to poke ones nose in those matters where one is deficient in knowledge and hence jumped to an inconclusive and absurd conclusions in a hasty manner. Anyhow let me put my responses once again in a signposting manner on those issues which have some relevancy to this argument without hovering over to its repetitive domain, so that it will make you work on its underlying rationale;
P.S. You keep on harping about the alleged fickleness of my arguments with regards to the issue of Apostasy in Islam but has yet to provide any single substantive critique of it. And yes Im also waiting to view the alleged logical and scientific errors embedded in the text of Holy Quran to be enumerated and delineated by you over here and will reserve my appropriate response/s accordingly on this very thread.
I can feel the paucity of arguments from your responses so far. Thats why its recommended not to poke ones nose in those matters where one is deficient in knowledge and hence jumped to an inconclusive and absurd conclusions in a hasty manner. Anyhow let me put my responses once again in a signposting manner on those issues which have some relevancy to this argument without hovering over to its repetitive domain, so that it will make you work on its underlying rationale;
- Wife beating is not a free hand licence given to an uncouth and unprincipled Man against his spouse and it comes as a last stage of a disciplinary process for the unruly and loosely reined women with some limitations and precautions.
- So the sanctity and prestige of Humans esteem sounds Red Herring to you? So much to talk about human freedom and respect for his life and thoughts from the hypocrite liberal fascists.
- The concept of slavery and its practise was never generated from the rubrics of Islam. In fact it was one of those social anathemas which it encountered during its promulgation in the seventh Gregorian century.
- Islam never endorses Human slavery but it tried to mitigate its ill effects and to reform those practises in that society where this practise had perfectly become entrenched into its social and economic fabric.
- The reformation process which was instigated by Islamic teachings were an effort to phase out that inhuman and unjust practise from the face of the earth atkeast in its post progressive phase.
- I can feel the bounties and graces of this so called supreme system of Capitalism on continual basis which has created more damage for the peace and harmony of this world than good and which was also highly praised by one of your favourite thinker & scholar Mr Karl Marx along with other proponents of its (Capitalisms) admirers isnt it?
P.S. You keep on harping about the alleged fickleness of my arguments with regards to the issue of Apostasy in Islam but has yet to provide any single substantive critique of it. And yes Im also waiting to view the alleged logical and scientific errors embedded in the text of Holy Quran to be enumerated and delineated by you over here and will reserve my appropriate response/s accordingly on this very thread.
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hmm, you are a worse debater than i thoght, so in a sense i overestimated you. well u see i had a friend called hanif. he also argued the same way by saying pure islam is great, and whenever i brought up the issues of slavery, gender discrimination etc. he just flatly refused that "pure islam" had anything to do with this. u however made the mistake of accepting that wife beating is acceptable under some circumstances. you have also made the error of accepting that slavery was prevalent during islamic era and islam didn't do much do remove it (inspite of your euphemistic language, the way to fight slavery required mass political mobilization which happened in some western countries after the french revolution and the american civil war). in fact if i remember correctly the prophet himself had female slaves and he permitted slave masters to have intercourse with these female slaves. i would be surprised(pleasantly) if you quote to me any verses from quran which can be construed as emancipating slaves or wishing their emancipation and claiming that slavery as a concept itself is haram/shirk or whatever.
hence my claim that european enlightenment ideas are much more progressive and humane than islamic system. if i were to design a new system today of course i will completely reject islam's viewpoint on the matte as being flawed and so would any sane decent person.
next the enlightenment thinkers i mentioned were not the founders of capitalism. capitalism brought war and poverty to th world. hume or kant or mill did not, neither did their ideas. i quoted them so that u dont say they are irrelevant like marx.
if you still think european enlightenment ideas are not clearly way more progressive than islamic system and that wife beating and slavery is ok under however miled conditions i dont have anything more to argue.
hence my claim that european enlightenment ideas are much more progressive and humane than islamic system. if i were to design a new system today of course i will completely reject islam's viewpoint on the matte as being flawed and so would any sane decent person.
next the enlightenment thinkers i mentioned were not the founders of capitalism. capitalism brought war and poverty to th world. hume or kant or mill did not, neither did their ideas. i quoted them so that u dont say they are irrelevant like marx.
if you still think european enlightenment ideas are not clearly way more progressive than islamic system and that wife beating and slavery is ok under however miled conditions i dont have anything more to argue.
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junaids
MPA (400+ posts)
You may have noticed that Pakistan has never contended that it is the leader in democracy or other rights. Pakistan is still struggling to get a handle on how it can be administered, outside interference from near and far has not been helpful. Bharat on the other hand, claims to be the largest democracy with a highly educated population, then every year thousands are murdered due to religious or inter-caste hatreds. You have to realize the disconnect between what your country says and does.
I am heartened that you are one of the few who are fighting the good fight in Bharat, but you seem a minority there at least among the educated. Being in Silicon Valley, I come across a lot of your elite and am taken aback by their hatred of the other faiths, and people of lower socio-economic standing than theirs. If this is what the democratic, educated and forward looking Bharat is creating, I do not have much hope for your minorities or your neighbors.
BTW, good luck on polishing your Urdu! The admins here are more tolerant than I have come across on some Bharatiya forums. Anyway, welcome!
Unicorn
Banned
How did capitalism brought war. I am a capitalist I try to save my money, legally pay my taxes. I invest my capital put long hours in hard work, risk loosing all my capital. What is wrong with me making a profit.
You seem to be a follower of Marx (enlightened thinker) whose ideas failed miserably and ended in slaughter of many people no matter how good his ideas were on paper.
Socialism is a failure it ties the hands of entrepreneurs and get people addicted to free money. Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy are almost bankrupt because the governments kept borrowing money to feed the addiction to socialism. Britain, France and Germany are on the verge of collapse only Capitalism can save them.
Look at China its emerging as a Capitalist country now very soon no one their will get free lunch.
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Unicorn
Banned
We don't claim that India is the largest democracy. It is a fact in that we have the largest number of people as voters than any other country in the world thats all it takes to be the largest democracy in the world nothing more.
Does that mean we are smart voters- No we are not there are may small democracies that has lot smarter voters we loose on important account.
Does that mean we have immunity from prejudice or discrimination- No we don't, there are other smaller democracies that are lot better than us on this account- we loose.
I don't agree with your generalization that we hate other faiths. Myself personally being as agnostic in that I look at faiths that are based on beliefs because it says so in a book very sceptically and may come across as a faith hater but its not the case.
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junaids
MPA (400+ posts)
By your admission, Bharatiya democracy is not perfect and has a ways to go. Hence, wouldn't your energies be better served in improving your own lot first, rather than concentrating so much on your neighbors.
You can choose to believe or not believe in whatever you like, but at the same time do not have any right to question others beliefs, let alone hate them.
BTW, that comment about Bharatians hating other faiths is not a generalization, it is an observation based on my interactions with your compatriots.
Unicorn
Banned
Yes it would be constructive to pay attention internally. But what can we do when Pakistan engages India with operation Jibralters, Kargil and sends terrorists in India, now its world wide.
You are right we do not have the right to hate anyone's beliefs. When some one voluntarily disclosed his beliefs to a person ,religious or otherwise, and if that disclosure requires questioning I do have the right to question. It is up to the individual to protect his beliefs from questioning.
Bret Hawk
Senator (1k+ posts)
@jujuju
All the hue and cry of this bogus claim of so called European enlightenment generated more harm than good for the rest of world’s posterity. Any idea of the unbridled greed and appetite for consuming the crucial resources of rest of the declining empires of the world including the colonization of your Bharat Maata, and many others regions of the world which was inspired by the same process of “Enlightenment”? The imposition of Opium wars and various other bloody conflicts which resulted in great number of losses of human lives and property along with the destruction of the valuable prevalent infrastructure, surely one of the gifts of that same European Enlightenment which was ensued afterwards.
Which enlightenment you’re talking and bragging about, is it about its hollow supremacy against the well established socio-economic structural reforms of Islamic ideology which was at its zenith at that epoch of the world when rest of the world was literally living well below the lines of humanity and sub human conditions along with adverse state of justice and security systems which were prevalent there to mock the face of your so called enlightened masters. homelands
The Gigantic Prophet of Islam (May Almighty shower His countless blessings upon his exalted soul) never encouraged his associates and his community to engage in the trade and exhibition of slaves which was by the way the norm way after his age in the European and American continents? Remember the ruthless trade and transportation of Black communities from African region to those places and the resultant state of affairs of those poor generations of hardcore slaves? In that nascent and emerging state of Medina there was no concept of an organised government along with huge and loaded coffers of finances to cater the needs of the destitute and socially less privileged individuals in the blessed life of Prophet of Islam SAW and hence the burden of those miserable individuals was used to be dispensed among the slightly well off households of that state including the blessed household of that great Apostle for some years until and unless the state of Muslims emerged with more powerful foundations and resources immediately in 10-15 years time to cater for their needs and protection.
Remember the great reformist and ruler of the recorded history Umar’s reign? When slave trade was totally abolished and not even a single individual used to be found in want of charity and on government’s assistance? A remarkable feat and accomplishment which your modern so call enlightened western powers have still to emulate in this age. May be your mind is still stuck with the proto and stereotypes of slavery of the ancient and middle ages and is so inept to visualise the unseen fetters of the modern manifestations of slavery of those so called Western states which bore variety of titles like mortgage and utility bills, council or local area taxation, heavy imposition of other mandatory taxations including some premiums of insurances and other costs of living including education and socialising. Talk about the so called free nature of Man’s status in these highly developed economies of the world and one can imagine the state of affairs of the common masses in rest of the less privileged world.
And plus also ask from the so called torch bearers of that Western enlightenment to kindly emancipate the communities of heavy number of prostitutes, sex workers and those women who are exploited on day in day out basis in their socio-economic structures in the name of market mechanisms. Plus also try to ask them to make the grip of the greedy and resource thirsty top representatives of corporations and investment world on the overall economic switchboard of their respective incumbent states in order to ease the perennial pressures of inequality of wealth and huge burdens of internal and external dedt on their common citizens and respective governments before giving yourself a false and constricted impression of grandiosity over the principles and dictates of Islamic teachings.
Disciplining of wife if comes in the contours of her Husband’s home in accordance with the letter and spirit of Islamic laws then there would surely be no need of having those scenarios of social and family structure which is evident from the filthy and decadent counterpart systems of the west where the concerned Women and Men don’t even know in normal circumstances the number of sexual partners they have encountered with during the phase of their lives and hence become a perfect manifestation of dysfunctional unit of that dysfunctional society with the fabric of household torn in to number of pieces with utmost disgust of profanity and lewdness.
All the hue and cry of this bogus claim of so called European enlightenment generated more harm than good for the rest of world’s posterity. Any idea of the unbridled greed and appetite for consuming the crucial resources of rest of the declining empires of the world including the colonization of your Bharat Maata, and many others regions of the world which was inspired by the same process of “Enlightenment”? The imposition of Opium wars and various other bloody conflicts which resulted in great number of losses of human lives and property along with the destruction of the valuable prevalent infrastructure, surely one of the gifts of that same European Enlightenment which was ensued afterwards.
Which enlightenment you’re talking and bragging about, is it about its hollow supremacy against the well established socio-economic structural reforms of Islamic ideology which was at its zenith at that epoch of the world when rest of the world was literally living well below the lines of humanity and sub human conditions along with adverse state of justice and security systems which were prevalent there to mock the face of your so called enlightened masters. homelands
The Gigantic Prophet of Islam (May Almighty shower His countless blessings upon his exalted soul) never encouraged his associates and his community to engage in the trade and exhibition of slaves which was by the way the norm way after his age in the European and American continents? Remember the ruthless trade and transportation of Black communities from African region to those places and the resultant state of affairs of those poor generations of hardcore slaves? In that nascent and emerging state of Medina there was no concept of an organised government along with huge and loaded coffers of finances to cater the needs of the destitute and socially less privileged individuals in the blessed life of Prophet of Islam SAW and hence the burden of those miserable individuals was used to be dispensed among the slightly well off households of that state including the blessed household of that great Apostle for some years until and unless the state of Muslims emerged with more powerful foundations and resources immediately in 10-15 years time to cater for their needs and protection.
Remember the great reformist and ruler of the recorded history Umar’s reign? When slave trade was totally abolished and not even a single individual used to be found in want of charity and on government’s assistance? A remarkable feat and accomplishment which your modern so call enlightened western powers have still to emulate in this age. May be your mind is still stuck with the proto and stereotypes of slavery of the ancient and middle ages and is so inept to visualise the unseen fetters of the modern manifestations of slavery of those so called Western states which bore variety of titles like mortgage and utility bills, council or local area taxation, heavy imposition of other mandatory taxations including some premiums of insurances and other costs of living including education and socialising. Talk about the so called free nature of Man’s status in these highly developed economies of the world and one can imagine the state of affairs of the common masses in rest of the less privileged world.
And plus also ask from the so called torch bearers of that Western enlightenment to kindly emancipate the communities of heavy number of prostitutes, sex workers and those women who are exploited on day in day out basis in their socio-economic structures in the name of market mechanisms. Plus also try to ask them to make the grip of the greedy and resource thirsty top representatives of corporations and investment world on the overall economic switchboard of their respective incumbent states in order to ease the perennial pressures of inequality of wealth and huge burdens of internal and external dedt on their common citizens and respective governments before giving yourself a false and constricted impression of grandiosity over the principles and dictates of Islamic teachings.
Disciplining of wife if comes in the contours of her Husband’s home in accordance with the letter and spirit of Islamic laws then there would surely be no need of having those scenarios of social and family structure which is evident from the filthy and decadent counterpart systems of the west where the concerned Women and Men don’t even know in normal circumstances the number of sexual partners they have encountered with during the phase of their lives and hence become a perfect manifestation of dysfunctional unit of that dysfunctional society with the fabric of household torn in to number of pieces with utmost disgust of profanity and lewdness.
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you are constantly confusing between colonialism and enlightenment and then also between captialism and enligtenment. even a basic reading of rosseau or adam smith clearly suggests that all your objections are either about colonialism or capitalism. even those objections are highly debatable.
secondly we agree to debate only on the theory, then i dont know why umar or any other historical figure finds a mention in ur reply. if u wanna go that way, let me suggest you a simple google term "ARAB SLAVE TRADE". i will say no more. i asked you a specific question, about quranic quotes on slavery and if you avoid that question i dont wanna hear what umar did or what ali did.
lastly stop preaching fake middle class morality and calling out prostitutes and sex workers. there is nothing wrong with the profession as long as people are not conscripted into these professions. for gods sake islam allows all kinds of deviants like LAUNDI/LONDI in its socities who have way less rights than any prostitute in a western society. it is heavily biased in favour of men, allowing them to have 4 wives, make temporary contract marriages etc. seriously i dont even wanna argue the wife beating part. u are just an idiot preaching fake morality.
your version of the gigantic project of islam is a gigantic failure in the modern era. and you are fighting a losing battle against capitalism.
secondly we agree to debate only on the theory, then i dont know why umar or any other historical figure finds a mention in ur reply. if u wanna go that way, let me suggest you a simple google term "ARAB SLAVE TRADE". i will say no more. i asked you a specific question, about quranic quotes on slavery and if you avoid that question i dont wanna hear what umar did or what ali did.
lastly stop preaching fake middle class morality and calling out prostitutes and sex workers. there is nothing wrong with the profession as long as people are not conscripted into these professions. for gods sake islam allows all kinds of deviants like LAUNDI/LONDI in its socities who have way less rights than any prostitute in a western society. it is heavily biased in favour of men, allowing them to have 4 wives, make temporary contract marriages etc. seriously i dont even wanna argue the wife beating part. u are just an idiot preaching fake morality.
your version of the gigantic project of islam is a gigantic failure in the modern era. and you are fighting a losing battle against capitalism.
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Reactionary
Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
HINDUstan is home to widespread discrimination against religious minorities (i.e.: non-HINDU's)
this is common the whole world over, the minorities are always the target of discrimination and prejudice; however, simply because it is commonplace does not make it acceptable practice
conversely, discrimination against non-muslims in pakistan is not a politically correct practice
this is common the whole world over, the minorities are always the target of discrimination and prejudice; however, simply because it is commonplace does not make it acceptable practice
conversely, discrimination against non-muslims in pakistan is not a politically correct practice
