Quaid e Azam: Shia or Sunni?

atensari · Sep 12, 2012

BuTurabi said:
ناچیز نے گھوڑے گدھے تمیز کی تھی، آپ کی نظروں نے یہ جُملہ ’’حذف‘‘ کر دیا شائد ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔

اصحابِ جُبہ و دستار کی ایک اقلیت کو آپ تب گوارا تھے نہ آج برداشت ہیں۔

شکریہ......................

Queue Farms · Sep 12, 2012

Yeh chooran walay ka fitna hay

patriot said:

patriot said:
کیا ہمارے لئے یہ کافی نہیں ہے کہ وہ ہمیں ایک ملک بنا کر دے گے ہیں؟
اپنی دو دو ٹکے کی مسلکی دوکانوں میں قائدؒ کو کیوں گھسیٹ رہے ہیں؟
خدا کے کیلئے ملّاؤں کے بنائے ہوئے ڈھابوں سے خود بھی باہر نکلو اور قائد ؒ کو بھی باہر ہی رہنے دو۔

muntazir · Sep 12, 2012

quaid shia they ya sunni iss sey kia faraq parta hai main misal pesh kerta hoon like hamarey ilaqey main aik shia ka intqal howa woh banda kafi khuda taras thaa jab bantha thaa to yeh naheen dekhta thaa key sunni hai ya shia imambargah ho ya mosque sunni bhaion kii sab ko chanda deta thaa jab un ka intaqal howa too sunni bhaion ney kaha key hum bhi in ki namaz parhaen gai iss ley un ki do namazey hoen, issi tarah quaid aik Azeem shaksiat they iss ley un ki bhi do namazen hown agar kisi ko shoq hoo to khi main SHAHE KHURASAAN imam bargah hai wahan per qasim hall key cornor per jo founding member hain un key naam likhey hain aur quaide Azam ka naam uss list main top per hai, doosra meri pehli post main in key janazey main ALAM hazrat ABBAS bhi hai aur koi chahey kitna bhi liberal hoo woh kamazkam ALAM kabhi janazey main naheen laey gaa iss ley iss behas ko chor den agar woh sunni hi they tab bhi hamarey ley quaid hain kion key merey liey Hazrat Allama iqbal ra ka bhi aisa hi muqam hai hum ko in shakhsiath key upeer fakhar kerna chahey pakistan zindabaad.

mehwish_ali · Sep 12, 2012

drkjke said:
very strange .if he followed shia fiqah as you claimed than is it not surprising that his marriage was conducted by a deobandi aalim and his funeral too was led by a deobandi sunni aalim.
lets say as a theory that he did this to please majority here in pakistan?but who will digest this theory?jinah was such brave and straightforward man that he would not have hidden his true school of thought due to "fear" of some people

Firstly, you are wrong about his marriage. It was not conducted by Deoband Aalim, but by a Shia Alim

Secondly, his first funeral was conducted by Shia Alim in his house and Liaqat Ali Khan was witness to this who was present in the house.

Thirdly, what is wrong even if a Deobandi Alim Deem conducts a funeral prayer? We are all Muslims and we do believe in one Allah and last messenger (saw). In Shia funerals, there are many Sunni friends who come to pray and vice versa.

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/24122010/page27.shtml

Khaled Ahmed

fter 1947, Pakistan adopted the position of denying that the population of the country was divided between Shias and Sunnis, among others. The census that followed took account of Muslims and non-Muslims but ignored the sects: it was also an indirect pledge of the state that it would not discriminate on the basis of sect. The founder of the state, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, although himself a Twelver Shia after conversion from the Ismaili sect, was wont to describe himself in public as neither a Shia nor a Sunni. His stock answer to a query about his sect was: was Muhammad the Prophet [pbuh] a Shia or a Sunni? Yet when he died in 1948, it was necessary for his sister Miss Fatima Jinnah to declare him a Shia in order to inherit his property as per Jinnahs will. (Sunni law partially rejects the will while Shia law does not.) She filed an affidavit, jointly signed with the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Liaquat Ali Khan, at the Sindh High Court, describing Jinnah as Shia Khoja Mohamedan and praying that his will may be disposed of under Shia inheritance law.The court accepted the petition. But on 6 February 1968, after Miss Jinnahs demise the previous year, her sister Shirin Bai, moved an application at the High Court claiming Miss Jinnahs property under the Shia inheritance law on the ground that the deceased was a Shia.

Given the prestige of Miss Jinnah, she was allowed to dispose of all the property of her brother (as a Sunni she would have title to only one-half) and continued to do so till her death. After her death her sister Shirin Bai arrived in Karachi from Bombay, converted from Ismailism to Twelver Shiism, and laid claim to Jinnahs property. It is at this point that the rest of Jinnahs clan, still following the Ismaili faith, decided to challenge the authenticity of Jinnahs Shia faith. The High Court, which had earlier accepted Miss Jinnahs petition, now balked at the prospect of declaring the Father of the Nation a Shia. Needless to say, the case is still pending in Karachi. But Miss Jinnahs conduct showed that she was an observing Shia and took her brothers conversion to Twelver Shiism seriously. Why had Jinnah converted? It develops that he did it on his secular principle of freedom of religion. According to courts witness, Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, Jinnah broke from the Ismaili faith in 1901 after his two sisters, Rehmat Bai and Maryam Bai, were married into Sunni Muslim families. It appears that this happened because the Ismaili community objected to these marriages. It also appears that the conversion to Isna-Ashari (Twelver) Shiism happened in Jinnahs immediate family, and not in the families of his two paternal uncles, Walji and Nathoo.
The court proceedings bear evidence of the last rites observed by Miss Jinnah immediately after her brothers death. Witness Syed Anisul Hasnain, a Shia scholar, deposed that he had arranged the ghusl (last bath) of Jinnah on the instructions of Miss Jinnah. He led his namaz-e janaza (funeral prayer) in a room of the GovernorGenerals House at which such Shia luminaries as Yusuf Haroon, Hashim Raza and Aftab Hatim Alavi were present, while Liaquat Ali Khan, a Sunni, waited outside the room. After the Shia ritual, the body was handed over to the state, and Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, a breakaway alim of the Deobandi school of thought who supported Jinnahs Pakistan Movement but had recently apostatised the Shias, led his janaza(funeral) according to the Sunni ritual at the ground where a grand mausoleum was later constructed. Other witnesses confirmed that after the demise of Miss Fatima Jinnah, clam and panja (two Shia symbols) were discovered at Mohatta Palace, her residence.

Witnesses appearing at the Sindh High Court in 1968 to affirm Jinnahs sect were Mr I.H. Ispahani, a family friend of Jinnah and his honorary secretary in 1936, and Mr Matloobul Hassan Syed, the Quaids private secretary from 1940 to 1944. Mr Ispahani revealed that Jinnah had himself told him in 1936 that he and his family had converted to Shiism after his return from England in 1894. He said that Jinnah had married Ruttie Bai, the daughter of a Parsi businessman according to the Shia ritual during which she was represented by a Shia scholar of Bombay, and Jinnah was represented by his Shia friend, Raja Sahib of Mahmudabad. (Raja Sahib was a close friend of Jinnah but differed completely from him in his belief. He was a devout follower of the Twelver Shia faith and ultimately chose to migrate from an independent India to Najaf in Iraq. His friendship with Jinnah has puzzled many. Apparently, the only bond they had was of the Shia faith.) He, however, conceded that Jinnah was opposed in the Bombay elections by a Shia Conference candidate. Ispahani was present when Miss Fatima Jinnah died in Karachi in 1967. He himself arranged the ghusl and janaza for her at Mohatta Palace according to the Shia ritual before handing over the body to the state. Her Sunni namaz-e janaza was held later at the Polo Ground, after which she was buried next to her brother at a spot chosen by Ispahani inside the mausoleum. Ritualistic Shia talgin (last advice to the deceased) was done after her body was lowered into the grave. (Jinnah had arranged for talgin for Ruttie Bai too when she died in 1929).

Fatima Jinnahs own funeral became something of a theatre of the absurd after her friends had given her a Shia funeral before the state could give her a Sunni one. Field Marshal Ayub Khan writes in his Diaries:

11 July 1967: Major General Rafi, my military secretary, returned from Karachi. He had gone there to represent me at Miss Jinnahs funeral. He said that sensible people were happy that the government had given her so much recognition, but generally the people behaved very badly. There was an initial namaz-e janaza at her residence in Mohatta Palace in accordance, presumably, with Shia rites. Then there was to be namaz-e janaza for the public in the Polo Ground. There an argument developed whether this should be led by a Shia or a Sunni. Eventually, Badayuni was put forward to lead the prayer. As soon as he uttered the first sentence the crowd broke in the rear. Thereupon he and the rest ran leaving the coffin high and dry. It was with some difficulty that the coffin was put on a vehicle and taken to the compound of the Quaids mazar, where she was to be buried. There a large crowd had gathered and demanded to converge on the place of burial. This obviously could not be allowed for lack of space. Thereupon, the students and the goonda elements started pelting stones on the police. They had to resort to lathi charge and tear gas attack. The compound of the mazar was apparently littered with stones, Look at the bestiality and irresponsibility of the people. Even a place like this could not be free of vandalism.

Mughal1 · Sep 12, 2012

Agar aap dostun ne meri posts padhi hen to aap ko maloom hona chahiye ehle ilm ka koi firqa nahin hota woh sirf aur sirf daleel ke pero hote hen. ajeeb baat hai sir syed sunni se musalmaan kehlwane laga aur iqbal bhi to kia ajab hai agar jinnah bhi shia se muslamaan kehlwane laga. aaj ham sab ehle aqal jo mukhtalif maktabaye fikr se taaluq rakhte hen khud ko musalmaan kehlwaana hi behtar samajhte hen aur firqwariyat ko thokar marte hen.

ilm ki roshni yeh tabdeeli insaan ke andar khud bakhud peda kar deti hai. Hamara quran aik, islam aik, paighambar aik, ham aik ummat ke dawedar phir taqseem kaisi? Hamen apni jahalat ka ilaaj khud karna chahiye ilm ki roshni se na keh doosrun par bila daleel keechad uchhaalan chaiye.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?128293-Mixed-thread-for-educational-purposes&

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...istan-sir-syed-farahi-iqbal-jinnah-and-parwez

mehwish_ali · Sep 12, 2012

drkjke said:
Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan was an old leader of Muslim League and close to Muhammed Ali Jinnah, he wrote in in Jang Newspaper on August 21, 1958 that:

"Muhammed Ali Jinnah would regularly read Quran. He read the book of Allamah Shibli Naumani called "Al-Farooq" (on the life of Hazrat Umer Farooq r.a.) and he ordered Shareef ud Deen Peerzada (still alive) to translate that book in English and told him that I want to run Pakistan like Hazrat Umer r.a. did".

میرے علم کے مطابق ایسی کوئی مستند ماخذ نہیں ہے جہاں یہ بات لکھی گئی ہو۔ اگرچہ کہ اس بات کو جنگ اخبار سے منسوب کرنے کی کوشش کی گئی ہے، مگر جو یہ منسوب کر رہا ہے، وہ اکلوتا ایک سورس ہے اور وہ بھی نامعلوم سورس۔

اسکی دیگر وجوہات یہ ہیں:۔

پہلا: سب سے بڑا جھوٹ یہ ہے کہ قائد اعظم "اردو پڑھنا" نہیں جانتے تھے۔ چنانچہ یہ ممکن نہیں کہ قائد اعظم نے اردو میں الفاروق پڑھی ہو۔ ایک یہ بات کافی ہے اس جھوٹ کا پول کھولنے کے لیے۔

دوسرا: اور الفاروق کا انگریزی ترجمہ شریف الدین پیرزادہ نے نہیں کیا ہے، بلکہ مولانا ظفر علی خان نے کیا ہے۔

Mughal1 · Sep 12, 2012

Saboo · Sep 12, 2012

mehwish_ali said:
میرے علم کے مطابق ایسی کوئی مستند ماخذ نہیں ہے جہاں یہ بات لکھی گئی ہو۔ اگرچہ کہ اس بات کو جنگ اخبار سے منسوب کرنے کی کوشش کی گئی ہے، مگر جو یہ منسوب کر رہا ہے، وہ اکلوتا ایک سورس ہے اور وہ بھی نامعلوم سورس۔

اسکی دیگر وجوہات یہ ہیں:۔

پہلا: سب سے بڑا جھوٹ یہ ہے کہ قائد اعظم "اردو پڑھنا" نہیں جانتے تھے۔ چنانچہ یہ ممکن نہیں کہ قائد اعظم نے اردو میں الفاروق پڑھی ہو۔ ایک یہ بات کافی ہے اس جھوٹ کا پول کھولنے کے لیے۔

دوسرا: اور الفاروق کا انگریزی ترجمہ شریف الدین پیرزادہ نے نہیں کیا ہے، بلکہ مولانا ظفر علی خان نے کیا ہے۔

Wouldn't it be possible that he read some parts of the book already translated in english, and he liked it so much that he wanted Pirzada to translate the whole book?...Besides, it is immaterial who actualy translated it after he passed away....Your these arguments are very weak therefore, to totally reject Sardar sahib's statement.

muntazir · Sep 12, 2012

Jinnah was thirty-nine and Ruttie sixteen when married!!

she(Ruttie Bai) converted to Islam at Bombay’s Jamia Mosque, under the Muslim Shiite doctrine, on April 18, 1918.

The very next day, Jinnah and Ruttie got married in a quiet ceremony at Jinnah’s Malabar Hill house in Bombay

The Raja Sahib of Mahmudabad, who signed as Jinnah’s witness, and a few other friends, attended the wedding. Maulana Muhammad Hasan Najafi was Ruttie’s witness. Jinnah presented the wedding ring to Ruttie, a gift from Raja Sahab, and paid Rs 125,000 as haq mehr . Nobody from Ruttie’s family attended the wedding.Her islammic name was """Marium"""

quaid key nikah ki rowedad.

mehwish_ali · Sep 12, 2012

MK Malik said:
Wouldn't it be possible that he read some parts of the book already translated in english, and he liked it so much that he wanted Pirzada to translate the whole book?...Besides, it is immaterial who actualy translated it after he passed away....Your these arguments are very weak therefore, to totally reject Sardar sahib's statement.

چلیں مان لیتے ہیں کہ آپکا قیاس شاید درست ہو۔
مگر یہ کیا کہ ایک قیاس کو تو ٹھیک مان کر اس پر ایمان لے آیا جائے، مگر وہ جو فاطمہ جناح اور لیاقت علی خان کی صورت میں ٹھوس شہادتیں موجود ہیں، انکو نظر انداز کر دیا جائے؟ وہ جو فاطمہ جناح کی وفات تک بلا شک و شبہ کے معاملہ چلا آ رہا تھا، اُسے مادر ملت کی وفات کے بعد متنازعہ بنا دیا جائے؟
اگر مان لیا جائے قائد اعظم نے الفاروق پڑھی بھی ہے تب بھی اس سے کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا کہ اہل تشیع بھی یہ کتاب پڑھ سکتا ہے۔ میں خود کئی بار الفاروق پڑھ چکی ہوں اور اسے اردو ویب پر ڈیجیٹائز کرنے میں حصہ بھی لے چکی ہوں۔ چنانچہ اس سے یہ بات کہاں ثابت ہوئی کہ قائد اعظم فقہی معاملات میں اہل تشیع فقہ کی پیروی نہیں کرتے تھے؟

Saboo · Sep 12, 2012

mehwish_ali said:
چلیں مان لیتے ہیں کہ آپکا قیاس شاید درست ہو۔
مگر یہ کیا کہ ایک قیاس کو تو ٹھیک مان کر اس پر ایمان لے آیا جائے، مگر وہ جو فاطمہ جناح اور لیاقت علی خان کی صورت میں ٹھوس شہادتیں موجود ہیں، انکو نظر انداز کر دیا جائے؟ وہ جو فاطمہ جناح کی وفات تک بلا شک و شبہ کے معاملہ چلا آ رہا تھا، اُسے مادر ملت کی وفات کے بعد متنازعہ بنا دیا جائے؟
اگر مان لیا جائے قائد اعظم نے الفاروق پڑھی بھی ہے تب بھی اس سے کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا کہ اہل تشیع بھی یہ کتاب پڑھ سکتا ہے۔ میں خود کئی بار الفاروق پڑھ چکی ہوں اور اسے اردو ویب پر ڈیجیٹائز کرنے میں حصہ بھی لے چکی ہوں۔ چنانچہ اس سے یہ بات کہاں ثابت ہوئی کہ قائد اعظم فقہی معاملات میں اہل تشیع فقہ کی پیروی نہیں کرتے تھے؟

I am not believing in Sardar sahib's statement and rejecting Fatema!. All I said was that you have to come up with a stronger argument to reject it out right. You are right there that it dont prove any thing about his religeous beliefs only on the bases that he read Al-Farooq. May be he was impressed by Hazrat Umar's administrative qualities and not his religeous beliefs.
But why it is so important for some people to prove him a shia or a sunny? It is good enough for me that he gave us Pakistan being a leader of all muslims.

atif khan25 · Sep 12, 2012

quaid e azam martay dum tak agha khani thay shia aur sunni dono ghalat fehmi ka shikar hain.quaid e azam chonkay is mulk kay khaliq thay is liye dono groups inhain apne apne maslak ka sabit karne ki koshish kartay rehtay hain. quaid e azam kay ismaili honay ka saboot yeh hai kay unka mazar ka gumbad bilkuk agha khanio kay jammat khanay kay gumbad ki tarha hai.

Afraheem · Sep 12, 2012

آسان الفاظ میں یہ فضول بحث پانی میں مدھانی ڈالی ہوئی ہے کے برابر ہے عقل والوں کے لیے اشارہ کافی ہے
[MENTION=25067]BuTurabi[/MENTION]

FaisalKh · Sep 12, 2012

BuTurabi said:
کِسی شخصیت کی عظمت و ہمہ گیری کی اِس سے بڑی دلیل کیا ہوگی کہ اُسے سب اپنا کہہ کر فخر محسوس کریں غالبا یہی محمد علی جناح ایسی شخصیت کا حُسن ہے۔ آپ ایک ایسی عظیم حقیقت ہیں کہ آج اُنہیں کافرِ اعظم پُکارنے والوں کی اولادیں اُنہی کی بنائی مملکت میں سانس لینے پر مجبور ہیں اور اپنے باپ دادا و پُرکھوں کی تکفیری سوچ پر برستے تین حرف خاموشی اور کھسیانی تائید سے سُننے کی سزاوار بھی۔ یہی حضرتِ قائد کی شخصیت کا وہ مینار ہے جِس کے مقابل بڑے بڑے جُبہ پوش بونے ہوئے جاتے ہیں اور بونے بھی ایسے کہ آپکی بالا مقام شخصیت کو سُر اُٹھا کر دیکھیں تو دستار ڈیہہ ڈیہہ جائے۔ مگر طُرفہ تماشا یہ ہے کہ اصحابِ جُبہ و دستار کی ایک اقلیت کو آپ تب گوارا تھے نہ آج برداشت ہیں۔ بڑے بڑوں کی قامت کو وقت کی رفتار اور طوالت کوتاہ کرنے کیلیئے کافی ہے لِہٰذا کِسی اختلافی مسلکی بحث میں پڑنے کی چنداں ضرورت باقی نہیں رہتی۔

آج مملکتِ پاکستان کا وجود حضرتِ قائد کو کافرِ اعظم کہنے والوں کی رعونت پر خاک کا وہ انبار ہے جو ہر گُزرتے دِن کے ساتھ اِنکی قبر بنتا چلا جا رہا ہے ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ اِنکی اپنی قبریں تو کِسی گوشہِ زمین پر اہمیت کی حامل ہیں نہ کِسی عاشق کے دِل میں وجود رکھتیں ہیں۔ یہی اُن منحوسوں کی سزا ہے اور تاریخ کی تعزیریں کڑی ہوتی ہیں۔

Braadar e Islam mujhe yakeen hai ke sooner or later siasat.pk waaalay baraadraan aapke posts ki book chaap kar millionare hone walay hain lekin azraahe karam agar agar aap thoree salees urdu use karain ( jo hum tashreeh karne ke liye is karte thay) to wadddee meherbaani hogee ya phir koe achi see urdu to urdu dictionary bata dain(bigsmile) manjaanib aap ka taabedaar alif baa jeem:biggthumpup:

Bangash · Sep 12, 2012

Afraheem said:
آسان الفاظ میں یہ فضول بحث پانی میں مدھانی ڈالی ہوئی ہے کے برابر ہے عقل والوں کے لیے اشارہ کافی ہے
[MENTION=25067]BuTurabi[/MENTION]

اور کم عقلوں کے لئے ڈنڈا

[hilar][hilar]

Bangash · Sep 12, 2012

قائداعظم: شیعہ یا سنّی تھے مجھے تو اس سے فرق نہیں پھڑتا لیکن تورایش کلاشن کوف کمونسٹ تھے جس کو ان لوگوں نے دن رات سینے سے لگایا ہوتا ہے اور نماز پڑتے وقت اپنے سامنے رکھ لیتے ہیں اور اس کو سجدہ کرتے ہیں

[hilar]

@BuTurabi

HHH... · Sep 12, 2012

AlhamDulillah, i never got interested in any sect yet.

I am Muslim only, and care for all who giving shahadah.. la Ila ha Illallah o, Muhammad rasol allah
SAWS

waqas_x · Sep 12, 2012

i lost track :|

Believer12 · Sep 12, 2012

BuTurabi said:
@Believer12,

جِس بھی فنکار کا شاہکار ہو تم
اُس نے صدیوں تمہیں سوچا ہوگا
عمر بھر روئے فقط اِس دُھن میں
رات بیتی تو اُجالا ہوگا

ساری دُنیا ہمیں پہچانتی ہے
کوئی ہم سا بھی نہ تنہا ہوگا

احمد ندیم قاسمی

سکوت شب سے کسی شب کلام کر تو سہی
،،،،،،،جواب دل تجھے دے گا سلام کر تو سہی

hans · Sep 12, 2012

If so... tell me what his actual Date of Birth?

Why did he chose to have 25th Dec as his date of birth? He wanted to protect the minority of Pakistan. Think BOsss !!! Think ....

Think hard.

drkjke said:
very strange .if he followed shia fiqah as you claimed than is it not surprising that his marriage was conducted by a deobandi aalim and his funeral too was led by a deobandi sunni aalim.
lets say as a theory that he did this to please majority here in pakistan?but who will digest this theory?jinah was such brave and straightforward man that he would not have hidden his true school of thought due to "fear" of some people

Quaid e Azam: Shia or Sunni?

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