Learn this from Turkey

[Kavalier]

Turkey is our new Mai-Baap these days and we see from our Prime Minister till the 16 years old on social media, everyone giving examples of Turkey and Rajab Erdogan. But we just see the cosmetics and what we want to see, like the dramas and Erdogan's irritating speeches for demestic consumption. What we do not want to see and follow is this incident on this very same day as today in 2016. Turkey's military is historically the same role as Pakistani military, interfering too much in national politics and policy making and more often than not, capturing reins of government.
But Turks changed this for at least next decade or two on 15 July, 2016 by coming out and giving the military what it deserved, once for ever. Anyone who has seen or followed Turkey in last century, would accept that Turkey was similar, if not worse, to Pakistan in its political, corruption, law and order, economic and social problems. What changed then that Turkey started rising economically and politically? They curbed the role of military gradually till this very day came in 2016 when we saw how amy personnel were taken out of their tanks and butchered by general public. Until this happens in Pakistan, we will live these slums and I will not wonder if in the name of security, the country breaks again.

 

[Kavalier]

Unbelievable to see how people came out on streets against the coup, how they laid in front of tanks and faced the aerial firing. This all seems a dream for a country like ours where it might never happen in our lives at least.

 

[Masud Javed]

the situation is different in turkey.
here leaders are corrupt, there army was corrupt
here army is corrupt but leaders are more corrupt!

 

[Vitamin_C]

Reminds me of the Reichstag fire which Hitler used as an excuse to give himself dictatorial powers.

 

[Kavalier]

Reminds me of the Reichstag fire which Hitler used as an excuse to give himself dictatorial powers.

Well you can have your views on this but keeping Turkish Army's history in mind, plus international establishment's disliking of Turkey becoming a democratic country with improving economy etc., there seems to be hardly any doubt of this being anything similar to Reichstag.

 

[Kavalier]

the situation is different in turkey.
here leaders are corrupt, there army was corrupt
here army is corrupt but leaders are more corrupt!

No sir, there is hardly any difference, Pakistan, Turkey and Egypt, the armies are all defendants of the imperial interests. It must be admitted that Turkish people are much more forward looking, have now more exposure and they have understood how west has developed by concentrating more on their economies and not allowing their armed forces to come out of their defined roles and make the country a so called security state.

 

[Vitamin_C]

In that case the international establishment should stand behind dictator Erdogan.

plus international establishment's disliking of Turkey becoming a democratic country

 

[Vitamin_C]

The people who came out were Erdogan supporters. The opposition did not come out in defense of Erdogan during the coup because they believed the coup was a fake coup staged by Erdogan himself.

No sir, there is hardly any difference, Pakistan, Turkey and Egypt, the armies are all defendants of the imperial interests. It must be admitted that Turkish people are much more forward looking, have now more exposure and they have understood how west has developed by concentrating more on their economies and not allowing their armed forces to come out of their defined roles and make the country a so called security state.

 

[Kavalier]

The people who came out were Erdogan supporters. The opposition did not come out in defense of Erdogan during the coup because they believed the coup was a fake coup staged by Erdogan himself.

Well conspiracy theorists can make anything out of anything but this coup was a bit too much to be staged. You yourself tried to compare it with Reichtag fire which was nothing, literally nothing an incident in front of this coup de'tat

 

[Kavalier]

In that case the international establishment should stand behind dictator Erdogan.

The definitions of democracy are different when it comes to someone's own interests.

 

[Imran Siddiqi]

Reminds me of the Reichstag fire which Hitler used as an excuse to give himself dictatorial powers.

I think Turkey has fixed some of these dictatorial powers that were given to their army in constitution before.

 

[islamabadi]

Turkish people came out to resist the coup because their Leader Erdogan has given them an average of 7,5% economic growth CONTINOUSLY for the past 14 years. Log bahir se Turkey NAUKRIAN dhoondney aatey hen . Turkey PAID off ENTIRE IMF debt 10 years AGO. Meanwhile we have a 2number wannabe erdogan here in Pakistan who has brought us to 1% economic growth.....he wanted to eliminate corruption in 90 days....but his entire cabinet is now filled with corrupts !

 

[Vitamin_C]

Im not talking about conspiracy theorists. Im talking about the what happened during the coup. The opposition did not come out on streets to defend because there was a general perception that the coup was staged.

Soldiers didnt know why they are on streets some were told that they were helping police with the traffic flow. 95% of Military was not involved in coup - these are facts and big red flags.

Well conspiracy theorists can make anything out of anything but this coup was a bit too much to be staged. You yourself tried to compare it with Reichtag fire which was nothing, literally nothing an incident in front of this coup de'tat

 

[Vitamin_C]

Im talking about the powers that Erdogan has given himself after the coup. The purge of intelengencia of Turkey, journalists and military officers. In Turkey even if you do not agree with what Erdogan is saying you are labelled as a terrorist and even thrown in jail with no charges. State of emergency lasted 2 years after the supposed coup.

I think Turkey has fixed some of these dictatorial powers that were given to their army in constitution before.

 

[Kavalier]

Im not talking about conspiracy theorists. Im talking about the what happened during the coup. The opposition did not come out on streets to defend because there was a general perception that the coup was staged.

Soldiers didnt know why they are on streets some were told that they were helping police with the traffic flow. 95% of Military was not involved in coup - these are facts and big red flags.

See the video by Aljazeera in thread, clears many things, also about the opposition parties, parliament, soldiers and common public.

 

[Kavalier]

Im talking about the powers that Erdogan has given himself after the coup. The purge of intelengencia of Turkey, journalists and military officers. In Turkey even if you do not agree with what Erdogan is saying you are labelled as a terrorist and even thrown in jail with no charges. State of emergency lasted 2 years after the supposed coup.

And may I ask what is the source of this information? I have many such baseless news and propaganda while living in Germany but whenever I talk to a common Turk, he brushes all such things aside.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Aljazeera is not a reliable source. Not saying they are lying but they are biased against and in favor of certain countries in Middle East. They are Pro-Erdogan and heavily biased against Saudi, UAE and Israel, so I wouldn't take their word for any news piece on those countries.

Even Western news outlets are biased especially Fox news but there are some that I find more reliable such as BBC.

See the video by Aljazeera in thread, clears many things, also about the opposition parties, parliament, soldiers and common public.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Turkey’s Vote Makes Erdoğan Effectively a Dictator

Fifteen years ago, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was the hope of the Islamic world. He was an Islamist, of course, but that was part of his appeal. As the mayor of Istanbul, one of the world’s great cities, Erdoğan had governed as a charismatic and smart technocrat. He’d served time in prison, in 1999—for reading a poem that seemed to celebrate militant Islam—but his jailers had been the country’s rigid, military-backed secular leaders who, by then, seemed as suited to the present day as dinosaurs. When Erdoğan became Prime Minister, in 2003, every leader in the West wanted him to succeed. In a world still trying to make sense of the 9/11 attacks, he seemed like a bridge between cultures.


On Sunday, Erdoğan declared himself the winner of a nationwide referendum that all but brings Turkish democracy to an end. The vast new powers granted to Erdoğan—wide control over the judiciary, broad powers to make law by decree, the abolition of the office of the Prime Minister and of Turkey’s parliamentary system—effectively make him a dictator. Under the new rules, Erdoğan will be able to run for two more five-year terms, giving him potentially another decade in power, at least. With a vote by the now truncated parliament, he would be able to run for yet another term, one that would end in 2034. By then, he’ll be an old man.

The voting took place in a government-created atmosphere of violence, intimidation, and fear. Turks campaigning against the referendum were attacked and even shot at. For much of the past year, Erdoğan’s government has been working to stamp out what remained of the democratic opposition to his rule. Since July, some forty thousand people have been detained, including a hundred and fifty journalists. A hundred thousand government employees have been fired, and a hundred and seventy-nine television stations, newspapers, and other media outlets have been closed. Many opposition leaders are in jail. That’s not an environment conducive to asking a populace what it wants.

The vote was close—very close—and there are many accusations of fraud. It did seem hard, in the lead-up to Sunday, to imagine that Erdoğan would allow himself to lose. (He did not even permit international observers to monitor the vote.) In the end, to solidify his position, Erdoğan was compelled to strike an unlikely deal with the M.P.H., an ultra-nationalist party that had previously opposed him. Without the ultra-nationalists, who can’t be expected to be enduring Erdoğan allies, the referendum vote may well have failed. Not that it will matter much now—the margin may have been close, but you can expect Erdoğan to exercise his new prerogatives fully. “It means the country is totally split,’’ James Jeffrey, a former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, told me. “Half the country loves him, and half the country loathes him.”

The secret to Erdoğan, I think, is that his Islamism has always been a diversion; what he cares about is not so much the power of his religion as power for himself. This has been true at least since the beginning of his second term as Prime Minster. It was then, in 2007, that his government opened the first in a series of investigations aimed at rooting out what he described as a vast, secret cabal—dubbed “Ergenekon”—composed of the secular élite that had historically dominated Turkey. As it turned out, Ergenekon was just another name for the democratic opposition and members of the military who regarded Erdoğan with suspicion. At the time, the Ergenekon prosecutions made a certain sense: in Turkey, the secular élite and its allies in the military had such a history of repression that much of the world seemed prepared to believe Erdoğan, or at least to give him the benefit of the doubt. But the trials—which began the dismantling, which continues to this day, of the secular democratic opposition—were a farce.

Since then, Erdoğan has used one trumped-up enemy after another to justify his drive for absolute power. In 2013 came the Gezi Park protests, where Turkish police cracked down on peaceful demonstrators, killing several people and injuring thousands more. Then, last July, Erdoğan beat back an attempted military coup against him, then exploited the crisis to neutralize any remaining opposition. Erdoğan’s strongman tactics worked in no small part because of the acquiescence of the United States and Europe, whose governments have held off criticizing Erdoğan for fear that he might get worse.

For years, Erdoğan’s critics attributed to him a damning quotation that, they said, revealed his true intentions. “Democracy is like a train,’’ Erdoğan was said to have remarked. “You get off once you’ve reached your destination.” It’s not clear that Erdoğan ever actually said this. But it seems, in 2017, to reflect precisely what he has had in mind all along. After fifteen years of riding the train of democracy, Erdoğan and Turkey are finally stepping off.

Turkey’s Vote Makes Erdoğan Effectively a Dictator

The Turkish President has won a national referendum to grant him sweeping new powers.

www.newyorker.com

And may I ask what is the source of this information? I have many such baseless news and propaganda while living in Germany but whenever I talk to a common Turk, he brushes all such things aside.

 

[Vitamin_C]

The outcome of the referendum in Turkey was 51%. Erdogan is a very polarizing figure in Turkey. Half of Turkey loves him which is usually the less privileged class and the other half, mostly people in Western parts of Turkey who are more educated loathe him.

The Turkish military has been traditionally known as the protector of Kemalism and Secular Turkey. Erdogan is taking Turkey away from its modern secular roots which have put him at odds with intellectuals, seculars and the military. Which is why he conducted the purge to remove seculars from important positions in bureaucracy, military, judiciary and media.

Erdogan adminisitration is essentially a coup against Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's Modern Secular Turkey. Few years ago I remembered, he even passed a law to stop teaching evolution in schools with the excuse that "It is too complicated and difficult to understand." This person will drive Turkey into the ground.

No sir, there is hardly any difference, Pakistan, Turkey and Egypt, the armies are all defendants of the imperial interests. It must be admitted that Turkish people are much more forward looking, have now more exposure and they have understood how west has developed by concentrating more on their economies and not allowing their armed forces to come out of their defined roles and make the country a so called security state.

 

[Kavalier]

The outcome of the referendum in Turkey was 51%. Erdogan is a very polarizing figure in Turkey. Half of Turkey loves him which is usually the less privileged class and the other half, mostly people in Western parts of Turkey who are more educated loathe him.

The Turkish military has been traditionally known as the protector of Kemalism and Secular Turkey. Erdogan is taking Turkey away from its modern secular roots which have put him at odds with intellectuals, seculars and the military. Which is why he conducted the purge to remove seculars from important positions in bureaucracy, military, judiciary and media.

Erdogan adminisitration is essentially a coup against Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's Modern Secular Turkey. Few years ago I remembered, he even passed a law to stop teaching evolution in schools with the excuse that "It is too complicated and difficult to understand." This person will drive Turkey into the ground.

Well to be honest no one is perfect and we all know what he is all about. I also differ with most of his policies and political stunts, but what I wanted to say by starting this thread is the role of military in politics and how general public has to react to send army back in barracks. If you say, it was staged, that seems quite far fetched, you can stage a few people with few locations attacked, but it was hundreds of attacks with military tanks and helicopters. Many loyal generals were either killed or kidnapped, there was open firing on general public, bombing on parliament etc etc.