Islam and Democracy (For those muslims who are in love with democracy and are willing to die for it)

[SaadKnight]

Dear saadknight, problem is not islam but most certainly mullaism in pakistan. People who have no sense of what islam is, want to rule us on basis of same imperialism that we are trying to oppose calling it secular democracy. This contradiction must be solved and it can only be solved by educating ourselves and these people and if they prove to be doing this deliberately then by isolating them. So long as we give these element free ride they are not going to leave this nation alone to follow its set out direction.

regards and all the best.

I do not know what you are calling mullaism, if by mullaism you mean the parties like Jammat-e-Islami and Molana Diesel's party and other parties that remain or remained in the govt. or are up for democratic elections, here is what I have to say:

• Jammat-e-Islami was initialted by Molana Modoodi but Modoodi took a wrong turn which was towards democracy instead of trying to implement a Bait based Islamic Political System because of which many prominent Muftis of our country disagree with the way Jammat-e-Islami has taken towards implementing a Islamic Political System through democracy.
• Molana Diesel's Party or the Halwai Party or other islamic parties (that want to implement islamic political system) that want to use democracy to implement Islamic Political System are also GUMRAH TAREEN.

If the above 2 points are what you mean by Mullaism then I agree with you but this does not mean that all the Ullema of Pakistan are bad there are those that do not want this democratic system, but they do not get to have a say in the matter such as the Khatm-e-Nabuwat Movement, Dar-ul-Uloom karachi, Tanzeem-e-Islami etc etc etc.

If you are dragging all the Ulema-e-Islam into this mess, the I simply do not agree with you and no one on this entire planet can make me agree to his/her point.

Remember that Mulla or Molvi used to be a prominent word in the past in the region of Pak-o-Hind, but now the anti islamists or the Zionist movement has shown the world that the word mulla means evil.

 

[Politician]

bohat sari aisi Islami tanzeemain hyn jo k khilafat lana chahti hyn mulk main. un main se bohat sare aise log hyn jinhain pata hy k democracy k hote hoe a'awam unhain mustarad kar denge aur vote nahi denge tou woh iqtidar hasil karne k liay Islam aur Khilafat ka word kasrat se use karte hyn aur democracy ko kafirana nizam aur Pakistan k 1973 k constitution ko bhi nahi mante aur usay bhi ghalat kehte hyn.

Khilafat k bare main yehi parha hy k yeh aik Islamic form of government hy. magar mera khayal main Khilafat jab Hazrat Mehdi (R.A) Aaenge jabhi sahi ma'ano main nafiz hoga us se pehle nahi.

Aaj aik bohat bara tabqa hy jo sire se namaz parhta hee nahi aur jo parhte hyn un main chand log hee hyn jo masjidoun ka rukh karte hyn. logoun ko deen ki basics ka hee pata nahi. har koi zara zara see baat par aik doosre ko kafir, munafiq, gumrah kehna shuru kar deta hy aur galam galoch bhi a'am hy. pehle da'awat.o.tableegh ki mehnat ka zariay se logoun ko deen ki taraf lana hoga, deen par mehnat karni hogi. yahan hamare khilafat k a'alambardar log deen ki basics par itni mehnat nahi karte jitni karni chahiay, in logoun ka zor jihad aur khilafat par ziada hota hy. a'am insan ko advance baatain aur fatwe samajh bhi nahi Aate kyun k us bechare ko deen ki basics ka bhi pata nahi hota. agar woh bechara kuch keh baithe tou log use kafir, munafiq aur gumrah hone k fatwe laga dete hyn aur kehte hyn tumhari Aakhirat kharab hy aur tum apni dunya mian apni gumrahi main khush raho.

Democracy Pakistan main sahi tarah Aae hee nahi jab kabhi Aae tou use establishment ne chalne nahi dia. agar Aaj hum taraqqi nahi kar sake tou is main hamara qasoor hy jamhooriat ka nahi. jamhooriat k hote hoe bohat se mulkoun ne zabardast tarraqi ki is main Islami mumalik bhi shamil hyn jaise Turkey, Malaysia waghera. lehaza apni ghaltion ko manne k bajae jamhooriat ko zimadar thehrana theek nahi. agar hum khud sudhar jaen aur apne vote ka theek istima'al karain tou jamhooriat k hote hoe hee bohat tarraqi kar sakte hyn. agar hum kharab hounge tou khalifa bhi kharab hee musalat hoga.

wase Saad Knight Aap k khayal main mojooda halat main agar jamhooriat ka boria bistar gol kar khilafat lane ki baat ki jae tou Aap ki nazar main woh kaun se afrad hyn jinhain khalifa banaya ja sakta hy?

 

[SaadKnight]

bohat sari aisi Islami tanzeemain hyn jo k khilafat lana chahti hyn mulk main. un main se bohat sare aise log hyn jinhain pata hy k democracy k hote hoe a'awam unhain mustarad kar denge aur vote nahi denge tou woh iqtidar hasil karne k liay Islam aur Khilafat ka word kasrat se use karte hyn aur democracy ko kafirana nizam aur Pakistan k 1973 k constitution ko bhi nahi mante aur usay bhi ghalat kehte hyn.

Khilafat k bare main yehi parha hy k yeh aik Islamic form of government hy. magar mera khayal main Khilafat jab Hazrat Mehdi (R.A) Aaenge jabhi sahi ma'ano main nafiz hoga us se pehle nahi.

Aaj aik bohat bara tabqa hy jo sire se namaz parhta hee nahi aur jo parhte hyn un main chand log hee hyn jo masjidoun ka rukh karte hyn. logoun ko deen ki basics ka hee pata nahi. har koi zara zara see baat par aik doosre ko kafir, munafiq, gumrah kehna shuru kar deta hy aur galam galoch bhi a'am hy. pehle da'awat.o.tableegh ki mehnat ka zariay se logoun ko deen ki taraf lana hoga, deen par mehnat karni hogi. yahan hamare khilafat k a'alambardar log deen ki basics par itni mehnat nahi karte jitni karni chahiay, in logoun ka zor jihad aur khilafat par ziada hota hy. a'am insan ko advance baatain aur fatwe samajh bhi nahi Aate kyun k us bechare ko deen ki basics ka bhi pata nahi hota. agar woh bechara kuch keh baithe tou log use kafir, munafiq aur gumrah hone k fatwe laga dete hyn aur kehte hyn tumhari Aakhirat kharab hy aur tum apni dunya mian apni gumrahi main khush raho.

Democracy Pakistan main sahi tarah Aae hee nahi jab kabhi Aae tou use establishment ne chalne nahi dia. agar Aaj hum taraqqi nahi kar sake tou is main hamara qasoor hy jamhooriat ka nahi. jamhooriat k hote hoe bohat se mulkoun ne zabardast tarraqi ki is main Islami mumalik bhi shamil hyn jaise Turkey, Malaysia waghera. lehaza apni ghaltion ko manne k bajae jamhooriat ko zimadar thehrana theek nahi. agar hum khud sudhar jaen aur apne vote ka theek istima'al karain tou jamhooriat k hote hoe hee bohat tarraqi kar sakte hyn. agar hum kharab hounge tou khalifa bhi kharab hee musalat hoga.

wase Saad Knight Aap k khayal main mojooda halat main agar jamhooriat ka boria bistar gol kar khilafat lane ki baat ki jae tou Aap ki nazar main woh kaun se afrad hyn jinhain khalifa banaya ja sakta hy?

See my post above you post.

Tumhein jamhooriat ki chamak ne andha kar dia hai jis ki waja se tum tarraqi nahein kar rahay. Tum isi chamak ki waja se jamhooriat k pujari ban chukay ho, doosray mumalik mein jamhooriat ki waja se tarraqi nahein aai, lekin tumhari aqal pe quful paray huay hain isiliye tum apni pasmandah soch k aagay kuch nahein soch saktay.

Asal khilafat aakhri baar Imam Mahdi k aanay par hi aaye gi bachay, par kya hamara farz nahein k islami nizaam qaim karein? Kya Quran ya hadees mein yeh kahan gaya hai k tum islami nizaam jo quran-o-sunnat se sabit hota hai us k ilawa kisi aur nizaam k peechay bhagtay raho aur usi ko poojtay raho Imam Mahdi k aanay tak?

Definately there are people no one has ever heard of and Nawaz Shareef will certainly be not on of them, and when the time comes, Allah will bring out such people.

Lekin masla yeh hai k jab tum jaisay damocratic logon ki niyyat hi nahein to tum murad kya pao gay? Tum to bas apni pasmandah soch, jamhooriat aur apnay dil k 360 buton k pujari ho.

 

[Politician]

See my post above you post.

Tumhein jamhooriat ki chamak ne andha kar dia hai jis ki waja se tum tarraqi nahein kar rahay. Tum isi chamak ki waja se jamhooriat k pujari ban chukay ho, doosray mumalik mein jamhooriat ki waja se tarraqi nahein aai, lekin tumhari aqal pe quful paray huay hain isiliye tum apni pasmandah soch k aagay kuch nahein soch saktay.

Asal khilafat aakhri baar Imam Mahdi k aanay par hi aaye gi bachay, par kya hamara farz nahein k islami nizaam qaim karein? Kya Quran ya hadees mein yeh kahan gaya hai k tum islami nizaam jo quran-o-sunnat se sabit hota hai us k ilawa kisi aur nizaam k peechay bhagtay raho aur usi ko poojtay raho Imam Mahdi k aanay tak?

Definately there are people no one has ever heard of and Nawaz Shareef will certainly be not on of them, and when the time comes, Allah will bring out such people.

Lekin masla yeh hai k jab tum jaisay damocratic logon ki niyyat hi nahein to tum murad kya pao gay? Tum to bas apni pasmandah soch, jamhooriat aur apnay dil k 360 buton k pujari ho.

is waqt hamare mulk k masael mian se aik masa'ala woh log bhi hyn jo jamhooriat dushman hyn. ye a'anasir jamhooriat ko chalne nahi dena chahte. Saad Knight ka ta'aluq bhi usi group se hy. ye log Islam ka naam le kar a'awam ko bewakoof bana kar iqtidar par hamesha k liay qabza karna chahte hyn. in hee logun main Laal topi wale Zaid hamid bhi hyn jo logoun ko bewakoof bana kar khalifa banna chahte hyn magar Laal topi wale Zaid Hamid ko ulmaa ne expose kar dia hy. hamare media k logoun ne (e.g: Nusrat Javed, inhoun ne is laal topi wale zaid hamid ka naam laal topi wala maskhara rakha hy) bhi Laal topi wale ko khoob expose kia hy.

 

[mrk123]

Mera bhai, it is not a case of interprating the quran and hadith to prove my point of view there are many books on the subject. I have just given here the summary because an entire book cannot be debated here. These are not my issues, they are everone's issues only problem is that people like you have become ignorant, may be you have seen too much light in this democratic system that you have gone blind to see what harms it brings.

As far as the alternative goes, we really cannot implement today the system of Khilaft-e-Rashida, but we can derive a system by carefully studying the Quran, Sunnah and Khilafat-e-Rashida, we can simply call it Islamic Political System. In my opinion, the time after 4 caliphs should be neglected, I don't mind quoting good deeds that people after the 4 caliphs might have done.

But if you think that Islamic Political System cannot be derived and implemented, you must be living in Disney land :P

It can be done but as I mentioned there is an active war against Islam and its political system because it threatens Capitalism. Such a system would shake the very foundations of capitalism. So, there will be difficulties in implementing such a system.

Great way to win an argument - call the person, you are having a discussion with, an ignorant! Well done son....
Anyway - to further our argument - so you admitted that what you summarised was YOUR version and not a broadly accepted view but at the same time if people don't see the light as YOU have seen then they must be ignorant. Meray betay! Have patience and keep your mind's eye open. None of the arguments you provided are contradictory to the classical democratic system as practiced in ancient Greece. Contemporary implementation of democracy as we know it today may be flawed but you can't outright make it seem like contradictory to the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah just because you abhor the west. Just as you, the great scholar, has proclaimed there are scholars (which you may not want to consider scholars just because they would have a contrary viewpoint) who have stated that a democratic system if structured and implemented properly is not unislamic.

Don't you think that if it was as black and white as you are making it out to be, the great Caliphs would have seen the necessity to enshrine the system that would have been according to the tenets of Islam - if we are a student of Islamic history we could discern that there was a great deal of strife at the changed of guard just because there wasn't a solidified system in place and the situation was fluid and the people at the time were making decisions based on Ijmaa.....Dont you think that if Allah(swt) had wished for us to follow a strict form of government the rules would have been spelled out. If they werent then consultation and ijmaa are the way to the correct system. After Ijmaa and consultation among the scholars the conclusion may not be a democratic system as we know it today but we dont know what form it would take and it may very well be something close to some form of democratic as implemented somewhere in the world - but I find it difficult to accept your assertion that the democratic system is the mother of all evils and is antithetical to islamic principles.

May Allah bless us all with wisdom and knowledge.....

 

[Doctorplato]

Those who think democracy and Islam are opposite of each other have no understanding of either Islam or democray. Islam is democray and democracy Islam. Those who think otherwise and promote Talibanisation or mullayiat are simply ignorant people. They need to be educated and enlightened.

 

[Mughal1]

I do not know what you are calling mullaism, if by mullaism you mean the parties like Jammat-e-Islami and Molana Diesel's party and other parties that remain or remained in the govt. or are up for democratic elections, here is what I have to say:

• Jammat-e-Islami was initialted by Molana Modoodi but Modoodi took a wrong turn which was towards democracy instead of trying to implement a Bait based Islamic Political System because of which many prominent Muftis of our country disagree with the way Jammat-e-Islami has taken towards implementing a Islamic Political System through democracy.
• Molana Diesel's Party or the Halwai Party or other islamic parties (that want to implement islamic political system) that want to use democracy to implement Islamic Political System are also GUMRAH TAREEN.

If the above 2 points are what you mean by Mullaism then I agree with you but this does not mean that all the Ullema of Pakistan are bad there are those that do not want this democratic system, but they do not get to have a say in the matter such as the Khatm-e-Nabuwat Movement, Dar-ul-Uloom karachi, Tanzeem-e-Islami etc etc etc.

If you are dragging all the Ulema-e-Islam into this mess, the I simply do not agree with you and no one on this entire planet can make me agree to his/her point.

Remember that Mulla or Molvi used to be a prominent word in the past in the region of Pak-o-Hind, but now the anti islamists or the Zionist movement has shown the world that the word mulla means evil.

Mullaism is a concept or ideology whereby people turn deen in to mazhab and then divide rule of law and rule of religion into two separate spheres ie cause split between worldly affairs and religious affairs known as church and state separation in secular christian countries. This is imperialist trick to use and abuse people at both ends ie in the name of loyalty to king and country and in the name of loyal to god and his agents ie mullahs.

Most stuff was borrowed from jews and many jews turned muslims just to bring down rule of the quran from within as they brought down rule of toraat, zaboor and injeel before it. Jews always conspired against islam since the time of the prophet. However they did not succeed in life time of the prophet. The quranic rule did not last long after him. Rule became malukiyat whereby mullahs became rulers in the name of religion and kings became rulers in the name of country.

In india sir seyyid marhoom challenged mullahs' interpretation of the quran whereby they used to fool masses and iqbal challenged their concept of islam whereby they separated islam between religion and state. All this is very nicely explained by dr israr sb maroom and alaama parwez sb marhoom. Dr tahir qadri sb has also talked about it as well as others.

So mullaiyat is nothing new. The simple thing to remember is mullahs are those who are quick at denouncing others as kaafirs. Ulema do not do that, they accept differences in opinions as normal human evolution of thought process. They are not dogmatic and ritualistic.

regards and all the best

 

[Mughal1]

Khilaafat is simply a concept whereby ummah is organised on basis of quranic precepts to manage all its affairs as a single community. It is not about being ruled by anyone. Even the prophet was not a ruler but one of the people ruled by the same law as his followers. Anywhere we see the prophet is given any status that opposes this is trick by mullahs to show that prophet was like a mullah or a king. All this is against the spirit of the quran which tells us it is not right even for a prophet that when Allah gives him book he should claim rule for himself. All this is done so that these corrupt people could justify that they have the right to rule the people because the prophet did it too.

 

[SaadKnight]

is waqt hamare mulk k masael mian se aik masa'ala woh log bhi hyn jo jamhooriat dushman hyn. ye a'anasir jamhooriat ko chalne nahi dena chahte. Saad Knight ka ta'aluq bhi usi group se hy. ye log Islam ka naam le kar a'awam ko bewakoof bana kar iqtidar par hamesha k liay qabza karna chahte hyn. in hee logun main Laal topi wale Zaid hamid bhi hyn jo logoun ko bewakoof bana kar khalifa banna chahte hyn magar Laal topi wale Zaid Hamid ko ulmaa ne expose kar dia hy. hamare media k logoun ne (e.g: Nusrat Javed, inhoun ne is laal topi wale zaid hamid ka naam laal topi wala maskhara rakha hy) bhi Laal topi wale ko khoob expose kia hy.

I laughed for a full 2 minutes after reading your post.
[hilar][hilar][hilar][hilar][hilar][hilar]
Mujhay kisi iqtedaar ki koi hirs nahein Alhamdollillah. Aur main Kisi Zaid Hamid ka chaila bhi nahein Alhamdollillah. Alba'ta tum pujari ho Islam dushman anasir k (bigsmile)(bigsmile)(bigsmile)(bigsmile);)

 

[SaadKnight]

Great way to win an argument - call the person, you are having a discussion with, an ignorant! Well done son....
Anyway - to further our argument - so you admitted that what you summarised was YOUR version and not a broadly accepted view but at the same time if people don't see the light as YOU have seen then they must be ignorant. Meray betay! Have patience and keep your mind's eye open. None of the arguments you provided are contradictory to the classical democratic system as practiced in ancient Greece. Contemporary implementation of democracy as we know it today may be flawed but you can't outright make it seem like contradictory to the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah just because you abhor the west. Just as you, the great scholar, has proclaimed there are scholars (which you may not want to consider scholars just because they would have a contrary viewpoint) who have stated that a democratic system if structured and implemented properly is not unislamic.

Don't you think that if it was as black and white as you are making it out to be, the great Caliphs would have seen the necessity to enshrine the system that would have been according to the tenets of Islam - if we are a student of Islamic history we could discern that there was a great deal of strife at the changed of guard just because there wasn't a solidified system in place and the situation was fluid and the people at the time were making decisions based on Ijmaa.....Dont you think that if Allah(swt) had wished for us to follow a strict form of government the rules would have been spelled out. If they werent then consultation and ijmaa are the way to the correct system. After Ijmaa and consultation among the scholars the conclusion may not be a democratic system as we know it today but we dont know what form it would take and it may very well be something close to some form of democratic as implemented somewhere in the world - but I find it difficult to accept your assertion that the democratic system is the mother of all evils and is antithetical to islamic principles.

May Allah bless us all with wisdom and knowledge.....

Can you turn this into easy English please.

I never said I am a scholar and I did not say that I do not consider other scholar, scholars because I differ with any of their point of views (which I don't).
The rules are spelled out in the Quran and their practical implementation can be seen in the life time of Muhammad pbuh and the 4 caliphs. But democracy is a system where logon ko tola kartay hain and this is not right.

The democracy in Pakistan is the result of the tolay huay people and it is not going to get any better, but will get worse everyday.

I simply put forward my of view, anyone can differ with it. Everyone says Khilafat-e-Rashida Khilafat-e-Rashida, which cannot be implemented in this age because we simply do not have people that are at the same level where the Sahaba are.

 

[SaadKnight]

Mullaism is a concept or ideology whereby people turn deen in to mazhab and then divide rule of law and rule of religion into two separate spheres ie cause split between worldly affairs and religious affairs known as church and state separation in secular christian countries. This is imperialist trick to use and abuse people at both ends ie in the name of loyalty to king and country and in the name of loyal to god and his agents ie mullahs.

Most stuff was borrowed from jews and many jews turned muslims just to bring down rule of the quran from within as they brought down rule of toraat, zaboor and injeel before it. Jews always conspired against islam since the time of the prophet. However they did not succeed in life time of the prophet. The quranic rule did not last long after him. Rule became malukiyat whereby mullahs became rulers in the name of religion and kings became rulers in the name of country.

In india sir seyyid marhoom challenged mullahs' interpretation of the quran whereby they used to fool masses and iqbal challenged their concept of islam whereby they separated islam between religion and state. All this is very nicely explained by dr israr sb maroom and alaama parwez sb marhoom. Dr tahir qadri sb has also talked about it as well as others.

So mullaiyat is nothing new. The simple thing to remember is mullahs are those who are quick at denouncing others as kaafirs. Ulema do not do that, they accept differences in opinions as normal human evolution of thought process. They are not dogmatic and ritualistic.

regards and all the best

Alhamdolillah you and I are on the same page.

Jin ulemma ki main ne bat ki e.g. Khatm-e-Nabuwat Movement, Dar-ul-Uloom karachi, Tanzeem-e-Islami etc etc etc, in mein se koi is mullaism se talluq nahein rakhta.

 

[Mughal1]

Those who think democracy and Islam are opposite of each other have no understanding of either Islam or democray. Islam is democray and democracy Islam. Those who think otherwise and promote Talibanisation or mullayiat are simply ignorant people. They need to be educated and enlightened.

I agree with you dear Doctorplato about talebanisation or mullaiyat as well as about electing people for management of affairs of ummah. I even will agree that making laws is upto people within given quranic framework but that is how far it can go. Western style secular democracy is anti islam because there in is no concept of set divine limits. This is where I disagree strongly with idea of ghamdi sb. His idea is that people are naturally bestowed with divine precepts. Had this been the case then people ought not to cause and accept all these destructive and terrible painful deeds but they do and we can clearly see all this all around us. Also if it was natural thing then why such things are so much emphasized in the quran? It is because what is supposed to be natural comes naturally nobody needs to be told about it. Animals do things naturally read no book and need no book to advise them. So if the people were left to their own devices they would not find the way hence the need for divine guidance. Moreover in the western democracy the concept that some people rule others is anti islam. Islam is all about brotherhood no masters no slaves, no rulers and no ruled. Just a family living by agreed upon house rules with sanctions against any member that breaks them.

regards and all the best

 

[Mughal1]

is waqt hamare mulk k masael mian se aik masa'ala woh log bhi hyn jo jamhooriat dushman hyn. ye a'anasir jamhooriat ko chalne nahi dena chahte. Saad Knight ka ta'aluq bhi usi group se hy. ye log Islam ka naam le kar a'awam ko bewakoof bana kar iqtidar par hamesha k liay qabza karna chahte hyn. in hee logun main Laal topi wale Zaid hamid bhi hyn jo logoun ko bewakoof bana kar khalifa banna chahte hyn magar Laal topi wale Zaid Hamid ko ulmaa ne expose kar dia hy. hamare media k logoun ne (e.g: Nusrat Javed, inhoun ne is laal topi wale zaid hamid ka naam laal topi wala maskhara rakha hy) bhi Laal topi wale ko khoob expose kia hy.

politician bhai sb aap agar quran ko paden to aap ko pata chale ga keh islam se bad kar koi nizaam duniya main hai hi nahin. Abhi duniya ne islami nizaam ko discover karna hai. Yeh aik bahot hi futuristic nizaam hai duniya jis ki talaash main hai. Ham hen keh is ko chhupaa kar bhaithe hen na khud faaida haasil kar rehe hen na doosrun ko bataa rehe hen.

 

[SaadKnight]

I agree with you dear Doctorplato about talebanisation or mullaiyat as well as about electing people for management of affairs of ummah. I even will agree that making laws is upto people within given quranic framework but that is how far it can go. Western style secular democracy is anti islam because there in is no concept of set divine limits. This is where I disagree strongly with idea of ghamdi sb. His idea is that people are naturally bestowed with divine precepts. Had this been the case then people ought not to cause and accept all these destructive and terrible painful deeds but they do and we can clearly see all this all around us. Also if it was natural thing then why such things are so much emphasized in the quran? It is because what is supposed to be natural comes naturally nobody need to be told about it. Animals do things naturally read no book and need no book to advise them. So if the people were left to their own devices they would not find the way hence the need for divine guidance. Moreover in the western democracy the concept some people ruling others is anto islam. Islam is all about brotherhood no masters no slaves, no rulers and no ruled. Just a family living by agree upon house rules with sanctions against any member that breaks them.

regards and all the best

If what Talibans did in Afghanistan is what you call talbanization, then I support that. Why? Because they had implemented basic Islamic laws forcefully on the Muslims which I believe should be done in every Islamic state. The problem is that the US and all the other Anti-Islamic union did not let the world see the fruits of such a government. If the government of Taliban would have continued for atleast one more year, the world would have seen the fruits of the system.

Those who think democracy and Islam are opposite of each other have no understanding of either Islam or democray. Islam is democray and democracy Islam. Those who think otherwise and promote Talibanisation or mullayiat are simply ignorant people. They need to be educated and enlightened.

Enlightened word is an invention of Shaitan, and Alhamdollillah I do not want to be enlightened.
So be enlightened and be happy

 

[Politician]

[hilar][hilar][hilar][hilar][hilar][hilar]
Mujhay kisi iqtedaar ki koi hirs nahein Alhamdollillah. Aur main Kisi Zaid Hamid ka chaila bhi nahein Alhamdollillah. Alba'ta tum pujari ho Islam dushman anasir k (bigsmile)(bigsmile)(bigsmile)(bigsmile);)

Aap jaise jo doosroun ko sirf is waja se Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari qarar de den k woh Aap ki soch se ittefaq nahi kar raha ho ikhtilaf kar raha ho, woh khilafat nahi la sakte. sab se pehle aise khilafat k theke daroun ko apne Aap ko badalna hoga. Khilafat jab bhi Aaegi Allah k naik bande laenge Aap jaise log nahi jo doosroun ko Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari hone ka fatwa de dete hyn.

Allah hidayat de aise logoun ko jo baat baat par doosroun ko kafir, munafiq, gumraah aur Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari qarar de den.

 

[SaadKnight]

Aap jaise jo doosroun ko sirf is waja se Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari qarar de den k woh Aap ki soch se ittefaq nahi kar raha ho ikhtilaf kar raha ho, woh khilafat nahi la sakte. sab se pehle aise khilafat k theke daroun ko apne Aap ko badalna hoga. Khilafat jab bhi Aaegi Allah k naik bande laenge Aap jaise log nahi jo doosroun ko Islam dushman agent hone ka fatwa laga denge.

Allah hidayat de aise logoun ko jo baat baat par doosroun ko kafir, munafiq, gumraah aur Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari qarar de den.

Main ne koi khilafat ki baat nahein ki na hi mujhay iqtedaar ki zaroorat ya hawas hai.

Main ne yahan kisi ko kafir nahein kaha, main ne yahn kisi ko munafiq nahein kaha aur na hi kisi pe koi fatwa lagaya hai

Tumhein SaadKnight phobia ho gaya ahi, mental hospital ja k apna ellaj karwao.

 

[Politician]

Main ne koi khilafat ki baat nahein ki na hi mujhay iqtedaar ki zaroorat ya hawas hai.

Main ne yahan kisi ko kafir nahein kaha, main ne yahn kisi ko munafiq nahein kaha aur na hi kisi pe koi fatwa lagaya hai

Tumhein SaadKnight phobia ho gaya ahi, mental hospital ja k apna ellaj karwao.

mujhe Saad Knight phobia nahi hogya balkeh Saad Knight jo k yahan apne Aap ko khilafat k theke dar k tor par paish karte hyn unhain Democracy phobia k saath saath Politician Phobia hogya hy.

Saad Knight jaise log jo doosroun ko gumraah aur Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari qarar de den sirf is waja se k woh un khayalat se ittefaq nahi karta aise logoun k liay meri Allah se dua hy k woh aise logoun ko hidayat de.

Saad Knight main bhi yahan mojood beshtar members ki tarah bardasht ki bohat ziada kami hy. jabhi ye mujhe sirf is waja se mental hospital jane ka mashwara de rahe hyn kyun k main in ki soch se ittefaq nahi kar raha.

 

[SaadKnight]

mujhe Saad Knight phobia nahi hogya balkeh Saad Knight jo k yahan apne Aap ko khilafat k theke dar k tor par paish karte hyn unhain Democracy phobia k saath saath Politician Phobia hogya hy.

Saad Knight jaise log jo doosroun ko gumraah aur Islam dushman a'anasir ka pujari qarar de den sirf is waja se k woh un khayalat se ittefaq nahi karta aise logoun k liay meri Allah se dua hy k woh aise logoun ko hidayat de.

Saad Knight main bhi yahan mojood beshtar members ki tarah bardasht ki bohat ziada kami hy. jabhi ye mujhe sirf is waja se mental hospital jane ka mashwara de rahe hyn kyun k main in ki soch se ittefaq nahi kar raha.

I agree mujhay democracy phobia ho gaya hai kioun k is se mulk k halat kharab ho rahay hain, lekin politician phobia? [hilar][hilar][hilar] is baat pe to main thookon ka bhi nahein.

Main koi Islam ka ya khilafat ka thekedar nahein.

Tum batein hi aisy kar rahay ho k majbooran mujhay tumhein gumrah kehna parh raha hai, is mein mera koi kasoor nahein. Is forum pe bohot log meri raye se ikhtilaaf kartay hain lekin main kisi koi aisay hi bethay bethay gumrah ya islam dushman ka pujari nahein kehta. Tum unique ho tumhein is baat pe fakhar karna chahiye. Tumharay ilawa MQM k kuch logon ko main ne yehi batein kahi hon gi yahan :P

Aur tum ne hospital janay wali baat ko ghalat interpret kia hai, itefaaq se is mein bhi mera kasoor nahein (bigsmile)

Agar tum bardasht is ko kehtay ho k tumhari baat parh kar koi us ka reply na karay to yeh bardasht tumhein mubarik ho. Aur itefaaq se is mein bhi mera koi kasoor nahein (bigsmile)

 

[mrk123]

Can you turn this into easy English please.

I never said I am a scholar and I did not say that I do not consider other scholar, scholars because I differ with any of their point of views (which I don't).
The rules are spelled out in the Quran and their practical implementation can be seen in the life time of Muhammad pbuh and the 4 caliphs. But democracy is a system where logon ko tola kartay hain and this is not right.

The democracy in Pakistan is the result of the tolay huay people and it is not going to get any better, but will get worse everyday.

I simply put forward my of view, anyone can differ with it. Everyone says Khilafat-e-Rashida Khilafat-e-Rashida, which cannot be implemented in this age because we simply do not have people that are at the same level where the Sahaba are.

Well, dear - you didn't put your argument as a point of view - rather you made it look like its this way or the highway.....and when I responded to your "muqaddamaa" you didn't take much time to label me an ignorant - made it seem that you are a follower of "either with us or against us policy." which is a very dangerous way of thinking no matter if its employed by the rigid right muslims (who are unwilling to listen to any other point of view) or the right wing fundamentalist christians or even the extremist liberals or progressive. When you tend to not listen to others point of view you are basically thrusting your viewpoint on others - which is not very helpful or productive.

Now coming back to our argument or rather discussion - my point is that you lay out that the democratic system is unislamic but fail to provide a clear alternative. I did read in one of your posts that you mentioned a system of bai'yat....well and good in theory but do you think that its a practical solution in this day and age - especially in Pakistan of today? Where even "langri loolee" democracy is having a hard time you think that we will be able to somehow, magically nominate a true and exemplary muslim as the Emir and everyone will do bai'yat on his hand. Hello!!! someone needs a real big dose of reality. It will simply not work! and my argument is that you have to consider realities on the ground and practicality of the solution instead of idealistic wishful thinking.

To give weight to my argument - my point is that if bai'yat system could work then why didn't it work right after Khulafa rashideen? those were the times of tabayeen and taba'tabayeen (who were at least thousands of times better in piety and "deeni" knowledge than us) and even then a system of government (which could be called Islamic) was not agreed upon - let alone implemented. So if those folks with all their pedigree couldn't do it then I am very doubtful that it could be done in this day and age and especially in today's Pakistan - where we have so many divisions!!!

 

[SaadKnight]

Well, dear - you didn't put your argument as a point of view - rather you made it look like its this way or the highway.....and when I responded to your "muqaddamaa" you didn't take much time to label me an ignorant - made it seem that you are a follower of "either with us or against us policy." which is a very dangerous way of thinking no matter if its employed by the rigid right muslims (who are unwilling to listen to any other point of view) or the right wing fundamentalist christians or even the extremist liberals or progressive. When you tend to not listen to others point of view you are basically thrusting your viewpoint on others - which is not very helpful or productive.

Now coming back to our argument or rather discussion - my point is that you lay out that the democratic system is unislamic but fail to provide a clear alternative. I did read in one of your posts that you mentioned a system of bai'yat....well and good in theory but do you think that its a practical solution in this day and age - especially in Pakistan of today? Where even "langri loolee" democracy is having a hard time you think that we will be able to somehow, magically nominate a true and exemplary muslim as the Emir and everyone will do bai'yat on his hand. Hello!!! someone needs a real big dose of reality. It will simply not work! and my argument is that you have to consider realities on the ground and practicality of the solution instead of idealistic wishful thinking.

To give weight to my argument - my point is that if bai'yat system could work then why didn't it work right after Khulafa rashideen? those were the times of tabayeen and taba'tabayeen (who were at least thousands of times better in piety and "deeni" knowledge than us) and even then a system of government (which could be called Islamic) was not agreed upon - let alone implemented. So if those folks with all their pedigree couldn't do it then I am very doubtful that it could be done in this day and age and especially in today's Pakistan - where we have so many divisions!!!

I am extremely sorry that my ways of putting my argument do not look good, you are right it looks as if I am a follower of "either with us or against us policy" but I have a very hard time putting my point of view the other way around.

I am not saying we will implement a system that is going to exactly be islamic, but it is going to be near to an islamic system. In this day and age, we need to devise a system from the quran, sunnah, khilafat-e-rashida keeping in mind the current state of the world (in which almost the entire world is against islam). There is a lot of research needed to be done in this area. The problem with looli langri democracy is that it is and will never be able to provide social justice. Everything is messed up. I agree that we cannot nominate a true and exemplary muslim as the Emir and everyone will do bai'yat, but we should not always be looking at reality. See this is the problem, the entire world has been put to compare things in reality. I can write up a lot of things here but I would recommend you to listen to Dr. Israr Ahmed's lectures on a islamic state and what do we need to do to be a true muslim. Once we cleanse our selves and move on to implement such a system, with sincere ijtemai tobah, Allah will put forward people that do not need wazarat but are completely capable to responsibly handle things at the state level.

It is a very hard thing to do but it is better than the current democratic system where every thing is getting worse by the day. If you still cannot understand my point please do listen to Dr. Israr Ahmed's lectures.