I was never scared about Pakistan even....

Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
Democracy and democratic rule, how?

You see half of the problem is Pakistanis thinking they are too smart and know it all. Excuse my amazement but how do consider yourself as intelligent and know it all budgie if your country is gradually falling apart?

You know what, you had a jibe at overseas Pakistanis, but I can tell you very categorically anyone have done this kind of acts in the Western countries would be jailed in a jiffy. You are happy that it was democracy. That's where root of all problems lies. More than two years ago I wrote a small town Magistrate in the UK is better than CJ of Pakistan. My God am I proven right day after day or what. This CJ would be sitting in jail if he was in the West.

Zardari, Nawaz, the MQM goons, ANP corrupt, the PMLQ lotas, all would have been in a jail in the West.
So what democracy and democrats are you talking about. If you want I can provide examples after examples of politicians and others who are sent to jail for similar and even minor offences.

Stop thinking that you are intelligent, it is you who is suffering from false sense of superiority rather than thinking and commenting about us. Until you start to look at the criminals as criminals and nothing else, Pakistan would never change.

@crank and Haider


Dear Sir , You are absolutely wrong on that. Your sweeping statements and rhetoric lacks all the analytical refinement and pragmatism which must be the tool of any analyst. You are sitting in the West and you have no idea of the ground realities of Pakistan. You can not compare UK and Pakistan and all the statement which start with "Had it been in UK , he would have been...." are fallacious. The social dynamics of Pakistan and UK are hell apart so we can not compare them or create an analogy between them.

Secondly , No one has claimed that Pakistan is a paradise. Just like every other heterogeneous society , we have our own issues. But if one analyses how things have shaped during the last 10 years for Pakistan , it paints a very happy picture. The civil movement which started for the reinstatement of Judiciary and integrity of Law was the first landmark of the civil change of Pakistan. We got an independent Judiciary as a result of that movement and got rid of a dictator. The force of the civil society was first felt in Pakistan then. The judiciary movement made most of the Pakistanis aware of their rights and the constitution. The common man had come on the streets for an apolitical cause and had for the first time felt that he can change.

The civil movement of the reinstatement of Judiciary was followed by the 2009 general elections which were another great achievement. We can disagree with PPP's government but they were throned by the public mandate. Now in another historical event , powers have been transferred from one elected government to the other. We are giving positive indicators which ensure me that Pakistan is on the right track. If the process of Democratic changes go on for next 10 years and ballet gets its respect , I am sure that Pakistan shall be among the developed nations with in a few decades.
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@crank and Haider


Dear Sir , You are absolutely wrong on that. Your sweeping statements and rhetoric lacks all the analytical refinement and pragmatism which must be the tool of any analyst. You are sitting in the West and you have no idea of the ground realities of Pakistan. You can not compare UK and Pakistan and all the statement which start with "Had it been in UK , he would have been...." are fallacious. The social dynamics of Pakistan and UK are hell apart so we can not compare them or create an analogy between them.

Secondly , No one has claimed that Pakistan is a paradise. Just like every other heterogeneous society , we have our own issues. But if one analyses how things have shaped during the last 10 years for Pakistan , it paints a very happy picture. The civil movement which started for the reinstatement of Judiciary and integrity of Law was the first landmark of the civil change of Pakistan. We got an independent Judiciary as a result of that movement and got rid of a dictator. The force of the civil society was first felt in Pakistan then. The judiciary movement made most of the Pakistanis aware of their rights and the constitution. The common man had come on the streets for an apolitical cause and had for the first time felt that he can change.

The civil movement of the reinstatement of Judiciary was followed by the 2009 general elections which were another great achievement. We can disagree with PPP's government but they were throned by the public mandate. Now in another historical event , powers have been transferred from one elected government to the other. We are giving positive indicators which ensure me that Pakistan is on the right track. If the process of Democratic changes go on for next 10 years and ballet gets its respect , I am sure that Pakistan shall be among the developed nations with in a few decades.

Thanks ATIF for your feedback. Atif, I have spent my whole life in Pakistan and recently moved to Canada. One can only comment about Pakistan, if he/she knows about the ground realities of Pakistan. FYI, most of the overseas Pakistani's have very strong connections with Pakistan and they have got their families back home. They are the frequent visitor to their native countries. Further, they have Pakistani's channels in their home which is making them sick on daily basis.

If you read my postings carefully, what made you believe that i don't know the ground realities of Pakistan ?

...............If overseas Pakistani's don't know the ground realities of Pakistan then why the hell on earth they are discussing Pakistan ?
.............. Overseas Pakistani time is more precious than you guys. If we are taking interest in Pakistan, you must respect it.
...............Most of the overseas Pakistan who can express on social media, they are PTI supporters and they are not dumb people.
...............Last but not least, we all know that who is supporting Pakistan with $ 12-15 billion dollar remittances. If they don't know the realities of Pakistan then why the hell they are sending home money?

ATIF,,,,, You are living in Pakistan. You should have better understanding about your political parties, Supreme Court, Media , Army , Religious parties and people mind set in general. You better learn about the the ground realities of Pakistan before it's too late.

If you have better understanding of ground realities of Pakistan then please read my post # 8 carefully and question yourself.

1- How come a person with criminal background become a third time Prime Minister of Pakistan ?
2- In the presence of active Judiciary , why Zardari could not get punishment and become the President of Pakistan?
( Chief Justice was in Justice system for so long )
3- Why Pakistani law does not apply to the rulers of "Takht Lahore " ?

....................Again...............Internal threats are there and will remain there.................Beware of external threats.........It's ready and going to strike anytime...............

 
Last edited:

crankthskunk

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@crank and Haider


Dear Sir , You are absolutely wrong on that. Your sweeping statements and rhetoric lacks all the analytical refinement and pragmatism which must be the tool of any analyst. You are sitting in the West and you have no idea of the ground realities of Pakistan. You can not compare UK and Pakistan and all the statement which start with "Had it been in UK , he would have been...." are fallacious. The social dynamics of Pakistan and UK are hell apart so we can not compare them or create an analogy between them.

Secondly , No one has claimed that Pakistan is a paradise. Just like every other heterogeneous society , we have our own issues. But if one analyses how things have shaped during the last 10 years for Pakistan , it paints a very happy picture. The civil movement which started for the reinstatement of Judiciary and integrity of Law was the first landmark of the civil change of Pakistan. We got an independent Judiciary as a result of that movement and got rid of a dictator. The force of the civil society was first felt in Pakistan then. The judiciary movement made most of the Pakistanis aware of their rights and the constitution. The common man had come on the streets for an apolitical cause and had for the first time felt that he can change.

The civil movement of the reinstatement of Judiciary was followed by the 2009 general elections which were another great achievement. We can disagree with PPP's government but they were throned by the public mandate. Now in another historical event , powers have been transferred from one elected government to the other. We are giving positive indicators which ensure me that Pakistan is on the right track. If the process of Democratic changes go on for next 10 years and ballet gets its respect , I am sure that Pakistan shall be among the developed nations with in a few decades.

To start with I didn't analyse it, I stated some darn hard facts. It is unfortunate that your thinking is so naive and full of absurdity. My dear friend crimes are crimes no matter what country they are committed. Don't you think what Zardar and Nawaz and Co have done not illegal under Pakistani laws?

What I am doing is applying Pakistani laws in Pakistani situation and showing you how absurd your thinking really is. Killing is crime in Pakistan isn't it? Stealing is a crime in Pakistan isn't it? looting Pakistan's wealth is a crime in Pakistan isn't it?

So what am I applying which is not applicable in Pakistan?
This stupid thinking is what has ruined Pakistan. Don't worry I am not blaming you, this is the story of the Pakistani society you are a product of it. Shamefully all Pakistani' so-called intellectuals and Journalists are working on the same logic which is resulting in gradual destruction of Pakistan. Keep doing it, who am I to stop you.
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Talking of Ground realities of Pakistan...............It's funny that some people think world does not know about the ground realities of Pakistan.
Let's start from economy...What people in Pakistan does not know about the financial health of Pakistan. You media won't tell you all this figure because they have Sheikh Rashid as their best person to describe the state of economy. This is ground reality #1 that you know about Pakistani economy from Sheikh Rashid Ahmad. Let's an overseas Pakistani tell you about the ground realities of Pakistan and then decide who is well informed ....People who are living in Pakistan or Overseas Pakistani's

1- Economy

  1. KARACHI, June 6 (Reuters) - Pakistan's foreign exchange
    reserves dropped to $11.457 billion in the week ending May 31
    from $11.623 billion the previous week, the central bank said.

    RESERVES Week ending Previous Week Change/pct
    ($ billions) May 31
    Held by the State 6.395 6.564 -2.57
    Bank of Pakistan
    Held by 5.062 5.059 0.05
    commercial banks
    Total 11.457 11.623 -1.42
    Remittances from Pakistanis abroad rose 6.37 percent to
    $11.57 billion in the first 10 months of the 2012/13 fiscal
    year, from $10.87 billion in the same period last year. The
    fiscal year runs from July to June.

    2- Pakistan total debt is ..........around 66 billion dollars.
    Per Cap Income $ 1372.
    GDP Growth $ 3.7 %
    Average CPI 10.06%


    Total debt to GDP ratio stood at 59 per cent in 2008, increasing to 60 per cent in 2009 and 2010 and then dropping slightly to 59.3 per cent in 2011 and finally increased again to 61.3 per cent in 2011-12.

    Pakistan - Government Bonds Yield

    [TABLE="class: genTable closedTable crossRatesTable, width: 1"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 3-Month[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.48[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.48[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.48[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.48[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 6-Month[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.30[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.38[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.30[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.30[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 1-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.30[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.35[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.30[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.30[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 3-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.80[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.70[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.80[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]9.80[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold greenFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold greenFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 5-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.09[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.05[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.09[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.09[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold greenFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold greenFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR="bgcolor: #EDF4FA"]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 10-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.93[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.78[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.93[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]10.93[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold greenFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold greenFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 15-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.70[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.80[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.70[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.70[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 20-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.95[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]12.00[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.95[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]11.95[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: center, align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="class: bold left"]Pakistan 30-Year[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]12.05[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]12.10[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]12.05[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]12.05[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0[/TD]
    [TD="class: bold redFont, align: right"]0%[/TD]
    [TD="align: right"]08/06[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
 
Last edited:

Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
Thanks ATIF for your feedback. Atif, I have spent my whole life in Pakistan and recently moved to Canada. One can only comment about Pakistan, if he/she knows about the ground realities of Pakistan. FYI, most of the overseas Pakistani's have very strong connections with Pakistan and they have got their families back home. They are the frequent visitor to their native countries. Further, they have Pakistani's channels in their home which is making them sick on daily basis.

If you read my postings carefully, what made you believe that i don't know the ground realities of Pakistan ?

...............If overseas Pakistani's don't know the ground realities of Pakistan then why the hell on earth they are discussing Pakistan ?
.............. Overseas Pakistani time is more precious than you guys. If we are taking interest in Pakistan, you must respect it.
...............Most of the overseas Pakistan who can express on social media, they are PTI supporters and they are not dumb people.
...............Last but not least, we all know that who is supporting Pakistan with $ 12-15 billion dollar remittances. If they don't know the realities of Pakistan then why the hell they are sending home money?

ATIF,,,,, You are living in Pakistan. You should have better understanding about your political parties, Supreme Court, Media , Army , Religious parties and people mind set in general. You better learn about the the ground realities of Pakistan before it's too late.

If you have better understanding of ground realities of Pakistan then please read my post # 8 carefully and question yourself.

1- How come a person with criminal background become a third time Prime Minister of Pakistan ?
2- In the presence of active Judiciary , why Zardari could not get punishment and become the President of Pakistan?
( Chief Justice was in Justice system for so long )
3- Why Pakistani law does not apply to the rulers of "Takht Lahore " ?

....................Again...............Internal threats are there and will remain there.................Beware of external threats.........It's ready and going to strike anytime...............


Dear Haider , may be we are looking at the same thing from different angles and only time can tell us which view angle was the right one.
So instead of tabeling my own views , I would respond to your questions.
1. I don't think so that Nawaz has any criminal background and if so kindly provide me with substantiated and objective evidence.

2.Unfortunately or fortunately , the judiciary is something different from "Maula Jatt" which can punish people with his usual Gandasa on the spot. Their is a whole set of rules which the judiciary has to be follow and it has its own jurisprudence which is defined by the constitution of Pakistan. The judiciary can not take justice in its hands but keep on providing justice while abiding by the constitution and public law of the country. It hardly needs to reminded that all the developed countries have flourished by upholding their constitutions and safeguarding its integrity. Zardari's cases were pardoned by Musharaf through the national reconciliation ordinance and Zardari got elected before the Supreme court declared NRO null and void. So Zardari was enjoying presidential immunity even when NRO was thrashed by the Supreme court as he was the President incumbent. Here is what the constitution has to say about presidential immunity under article 248.

Article 248.

(2) No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued against the President or a Governor in any court during his term of office.
(3) No process for the arrest or imprisonment of the President or a Governor shall issue from any court during his term of office.
(4)
No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the President or a Governor shall be instituted during his term of office in respect of anything done by or not done by him in his personal capacity whether before or after he enters upon his office unless, at least sixty days before the proceedings are instituted, notice in writing has been delivered to him, or sent to him in the manner prescribed by law, stating the nature of the proceedings, the cause of action, the name, description and place of residence of the party by whom the proceedings are to be instituted and the relief which the party claims.


3. The Pakistani law does apply to all the rulers no matter who. For example , in Asghar khan case , the Supreme court issued a verdict against many politicians who were beneficiaries of Mehran bank. The list included Mian Nawaz Sharif as well.

http://dawn.com/2012/11/08/sc-issues-detailed-verdict-of-asghar-khan-case/

[TD="colspan: 2"] [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"]
[/TD]
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
This subject is too dry for Pakistani Janta....therefore i ma trying to be precise.

Pakistan needs five billion dollars of bailout program .

Why Nawaz Sharif Government is pissing in their paints after coming to Government. They could have done lot better if they would have performed real task of opposition during zardari Government.

...........The forex reserves are not a comfortable for now and adequate for less than two months of import cover,
..............
If the external inflows to the tune of $1.8 billion under the head of CSF get materilasied by the end of this fiscal year, the forex reserves would be propped up and could be sufficient for the 2.5 months of import cover,” he added.


................
official reserves of the country held by the State Bank of Pakistan will be around $5.6 billion by the end of June 2013. Moreover, if the swap reserves of the SBP of the forward market are excluded from the overall forex reserves, the reserves will be stood in between $3.2 billion and $3.5 billion. “The forex reserves are not a comfortable for now and adequate for less than two months of import cover,”
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear Haider , may be we are looking at the same thing from different angles and only time can tell us which view angle was the right one.
So instead of tabeling my own views , I would respond to your questions.
1. I don't think so that Nawaz has any criminal background and if so kindly provide me with substantiated and objective evidence.

2.Unfortunately or fortunately , the judiciary is something different from "Maula Jatt" which can punish people with his usual Gandasa on the spot. Their is a whole set of rules which the judiciary has to be follow and it has its own jurisprudence which is defined by the constitution of Pakistan. The judiciary can not take justice in its hands but keep on providing justice while abiding by the constitution and public law of the country. It hardly needs to reminded that all the developed countries have flourished by upholding their constitutions and safeguarding its integrity. Zardari's cases were pardoned by Musharaf through the national reconciliation ordinance and Zardari got elected before the Supreme court declared NRO null and void. So Zardari was enjoying presidential immunity even when NRO was thrashed by the Supreme court as he was the President incumbent. Here is what the constitution has to say about presidential immunity under article 248.

Article 248.

(2)No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued against the President or a Governor in any court during his term of office.
(3)No process for the arrest or imprisonment of the President or a Governor shall issue from any court during his term of office.
(4) No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the President or a Governor shall be instituted during his term of office in respect of anything done by or not done by him in his personal capacity whether before or after he enters upon his office unless, at least sixty days before the proceedings are instituted, notice in writing has been delivered to him, or sent to him in the manner prescribed by law, stating the nature of the proceedings, the cause of action, the name, description and place of residence of the party by whom the proceedings are to be instituted and the relief which the party claims.


3. The Pakistani law does apply to all the rulers no matter who. For example , in Asghar khan case , the Supreme court issued a verdict against many politicians who were beneficiaries of Mehran bank. The list included Mian Nawaz Sharif as well.

http://dawn.com/2012/11/08/sc-issues-detailed-verdict-of-asghar-khan-case/

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

First, I need to understand......To whom i am talking to ?
This will help me to narrow down the discussion. I would appreciate if you please introduce yourself.

..........I am a critic and die hard supporter of PTI.

1- Let's deal with Nawaz Sharif first.

Here are the two links for your reference. I would urge you to please read first, understand and then give your comments. This will save the time of everyone. Please try to be logical and honest with your feedback.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?179568-People-Memory-and-PML-N-Past-Government-achievements&highlight=People+memory+pml+n

2- Nawaz Sharif - As an opposition party. ( Last five years - this is fresh episode )

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?167434-PML-N-Pakistan-Muslim-League-%28N%29-5-YEARS-Performance-as-an-Opposition-Party-and-Past-History




 

Anmir

Minister (2k+ posts)
You don't need to be scared. Pakistan is moving forward. The democratic shift of government has assured that Pakistan is on the right democratic path and just in a few years people shall start enjoying the fruits of the continued democracy in Pakistan. The overseas Pakistanis mostly live under the influence of inferiority complex abroad and to ooze out their own complex , they get a pleasure from presenting a doom's day scene in Pakistan.
Your democratic shift government is welcome to you you will be lucky to eat the democratic fruits such as mangos, melons, kinos,if you can afford them because even these fruits are going to be in short supplies because your democrats are exporting them to us overseas pakistanis to get our dollars.
Ask your bonded slaves all over in the interiors of pakistan if they have tasted democracy in the last five years like their brothers abroad who are feeding themselves and supporting their families and relatives back in the democratic pakistan,
Doomsday is in the hands of allah tala but the have nots go through hell everyday due to their ignorance and even allah tala says ignorance is not an excuse, get up and help yourselves, the nooras and the madari peers have vision for the doomed only vision they have is for their kind
 

Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)

First, I need to understand......To whom i am talking to ?
This will help me to narrow down the discussion. I would appreciate if you please introduce yourself.

..........I am a critic and die hard supporter of PTI.

1- Let's deal with Nawaz Sharif first.

Here are the two links for your reference. I would urge you to please read first, understand and then give your comments. This will save the time of everyone. Please try to be logical and honest with your feedback.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?179568-People-Memory-and-PML-N-Past-Government-achievements&highlight=People+memory+pml+n

2- Nawaz Sharif - As an opposition party. ( Last five years - this is fresh episode )

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?167434-PML-N-Pakistan-Muslim-League-%28N%29-5-YEARS-Performance-as-an-Opposition-Party-and-Past-History





I think revealing political affiliations hardly matter when it comes to objective discussions but i hail from a Pashtoon nationalist family. However , since 2005 , with all my rationalities intact and all my honesty in place , i am a supporter of Pakistan Muslim League-N.

The evidence i am asking for is objective and substantiated criminal evidence against Mian Nawaz Sharif as you have alleged him of having criminal record in an earlier post.
 

Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
Your democratic shift government is welcome to you you will be lucky to eat the democratic fruits such as mangos, melons, kinos,if you can afford them because even these fruits are going to be in short supplies because your democrats are exporting them to us overseas pakistanis to get our dollars.
Ask your bonded slaves all over in the interiors of pakistan if they have tasted democracy in the last five years like their brothers abroad who are feeding themselves and supporting their families and relatives back in the democratic pakistan,
Doomsday is in the hands of allah tala but the have nots go through hell everyday due to their ignorance and even allah tala says ignorance is not an excuse, get up and help yourselves, the nooras and the madari peers have vision for the doomed only vision they have is for their kind

Democracy can be defined in many ways. The one i like the most comes from Bernard Shaw who said " Democracy is the form of government which ensures that people are governed by no better than they deserve". People have been bestowed with the rulers that they deserve. They have made their political opinion clear and now they shall suffer the consequences of their choice so let them suffer whatever good or bad consequences surface due to their choices. Democracy is a morally coherent idea where people get rewarded and punished per the quality of their choices. Its the people who are the givers and at the receiving end at the same time.So lets not worry as whatever shall happen , shall be morally justifiable and one does need to burn his heart over it.
 

crankthskunk

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear Haider , may be we are looking at the same thing from different angles and only time can tell us which view angle was the right one.
So instead of tabeling my own views , I would respond to your questions.
1. I don't think so that Nawaz has any criminal background and if so kindly provide me with substantiated and objective evidence.

2.Unfortunately or fortunately , the judiciary is something different from "Maula Jatt" which can punish people with his usual Gandasa on the spot. Their is a whole set of rules which the judiciary has to be follow and it has its own jurisprudence which is defined by the constitution of Pakistan. The judiciary can not take justice in its hands but keep on providing justice while abiding by the constitution and public law of the country. It hardly needs to reminded that all the developed countries have flourished by upholding their constitutions and safeguarding its integrity. Zardari's cases were pardoned by Musharaf through the national reconciliation ordinance and Zardari got elected before the Supreme court declared NRO null and void. So Zardari was enjoying presidential immunity even when NRO was thrashed by the Supreme court as he was the President incumbent. Here is what the constitution has to say about presidential immunity under article 248.

Article 248.

(2)No criminal proceedings whatsoever shall be instituted or continued against the President or a Governor in any court during his term of office.
(3)No process for the arrest or imprisonment of the President or a Governor shall issue from any court during his term of office.
(4)No civil proceedings in which relief is claimed against the President or a Governor shall be instituted during his term of office in respect of anything done by or not done by him in his personal capacity whether before or after he enters upon his office unless, at least sixty days before the proceedings are instituted, notice in writing has been delivered to him, or sent to him in the manner prescribed by law, stating the nature of the proceedings, the cause of action, the name, description and place of residence of the party by whom the proceedings are to be instituted and the relief which the party claims.


3. The Pakistani law does apply to all the rulers no matter who. For example , in Asghar khan case , the Supreme court issued a verdict against many politicians who were beneficiaries of Mehran bank. The list included Mian Nawaz Sharif as well.

http://dawn.com/2012/11/08/sc-issues-detailed-verdict-of-asghar-khan-case/

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

It is damn easy to see why you are not grasping the issues. Where should we start.

Let's say, Zardari's cases were already decided in the Swiss courts before he became the President. He was a convicted felon, declared by an international court.
Now please tell us, who elected him as a President of Pakistan despite him not been illegible to hold the office?
Didn't your PMLN voted in his favor?
He has plenty of other conviction and have spent the time in jail. So did the Noora's but in Pakistan the process it, once they get convicted, they say it was political. And to clear their name during their tenure they start their own cleaning mill and come out of it all bright and clean without any sticking marks. This is the story of Pakistan for last 40 years. No wonder each party says they are innocent.

I have already written in my article, the Sharifs courts have started, we would see them coming out clean, while their appointed courts and NAB chairman declare them innocent of all wrong doings.
I am not going to go in to details about Nooras, just one case is enough, Nawaz has over 8 billions outstanding as loans, which are illegally on stay orders, even though stay order is only for 6 months and after the period it lapses, but Pakistan's judiciary is the best in the world. What can we say.
This alone should have rendered both Sharifs disqualified from taking part in the elections.
In one of my articles I have quoted all the CPC sections under which it is a criminal act to provide a property as collateral which is not wholly owned by you.

The question is who is going to apply the law, when the law makers are your arse lickers and appointed by you. If the judges take orders from you on the phone to decide the cases. Only one case to influence the justice is enough to disqualify both brothers. They don't have the guts to deny the evidence. But they can buy the judges. CJ is already singing from the same sheet. Long live Pakistan and its justice.

You are hundred percent right, Zardari and Sharifs are innocent of all blames. Just one question would solve all the issues, if you are brave enough. Just tell me how both of them live like Kings without having enough declared assets and income. If you want I can go step by step with you if you find it difficult to add 2+2=4.:lol::lol:
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I think revealing political affiliations hardly matter when it comes to objective discussions but i hail from a Pashtoon nationalist family. However , since 2005 , with all my rationalities intact and all my honesty in place , i am a supporter of Pakistan Muslim League-N.

The evidence i am asking for is objective and substantiated criminal evidence against Mian Nawaz Sharif as you have alleged him of having criminal record in an earlier post.

It does matter.....One should know the political affiliation to make the discussion easy.
Anyhow, Thanks for the clarification. FYI, all the links are there in my thread. That's a very detailed thread.
I am surprised that nothing moved you:)

We could ask thousands of questions.....please answer me only few.
..................................Why Pakistani law does not apply to a Punjabi leader ?
..................................A judge ( Molvi Rafiq Tarar ) who used to listen his family cases...How he become the President of Pakistan ?
..................................Which law suggest that Corruption does not fall under crime ?
..................................What about
Raymond W Baker Book ?
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/raymond-w-baker-book-nawaz-sharif-corruption
 
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Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
It does matter.....One should know the political affiliation to make the discussion easy.
Anyhow, Thanks for the clarification. FYI, all the links are there in my thread. That's a very detailed thread.
I am surprised that nothing moved you:)

We could ask thousands of questions.....please answer me only few.
..................................Why Pakistani law does not apply to a Punjabi leader ?
..................................A judge ( Molvi Rafiq Tarar ) who used to listen his family cases...How he become the President of Pakistan ?
..................................Which law suggest that Corruption does not fall under crime ?
..................................What about
Raymond W Baker Book ?
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/raymond-w-baker-book-nawaz-sharif-corruption

1. Pakistani law does apply to Punjabi leaders. Javaid Hashmi , Yousaf Raza Gillani , Hamid Saeed Kazmi and various other politicians from Punjab have been serving in jails, Gillani has been sent home from PM house by the supreme court.

2. Kindly mention the cases in which Rafique Tarar unjustly supported Sharif family and it would be great if you can share the opinion of some senior lawyer about them. Any judge (or any person eligible for the seat of MNA) can become president.

3.Corruption cases do fall under criminal cases.

4.The claims of Baker are just claims as they have not been scrutinized by any court so i would apply "Innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.
 

Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
It is damn easy to see why you are not grasping the issues. Where should we start.

Let's say, Zardari's cases were already decided in the Swiss courts before he became the President. He was a convicted felon, declared by an international court.
Now please tell us, who elected him as a President of Pakistan despite him not been illegible to hold the office?
Didn't your PMLN voted in his favor?
He has plenty of other conviction and have spent the time in jail. So did the Noora's but in Pakistan the process it, once they get convicted, they say it was political. And to clear their name during their tenure they start their own cleaning mill and come out of it all bright and clean without any sticking marks. This is the story of Pakistan for last 40 years. No wonder each party says they are innocent.

I have already written in my article, the Sharifs courts have started, we would see them coming out clean, while their appointed courts and NAB chairman declare them innocent of all wrong doings.
I am not going to go in to details about Nooras, just one case is enough, Nawaz has over 8 billions outstanding as loans, which are illegally on stay orders, even though stay order is only for 6 months and after the period it lapses, but Pakistan's judiciary is the best in the world. What can we say.
This alone should have rendered both Sharifs disqualified from taking part in the elections.
In one of my articles I have quoted all the CPC sections under which it is a criminal act to provide a property as collateral which is not wholly owned by you.

The question is who is going to apply the law, when the law makers are your arse lickers and appointed by you. If the judges take orders from you on the phone to decide the cases. Only one case to influence the justice is enough to disqualify both brothers. They don't have the guts to deny the evidence. But they can buy the judges. CJ is already singing from the same sheet. Long live Pakistan and its justice.

You are hundred percent right, Zardari and Sharifs are innocent of all blames. Just one question would solve all the issues, if you are brave enough. Just tell me how both of them live like Kings without having enough declared assets and income. If you want I can go step by step with you if you find it difficult to add 2+2=4.:lol::lol:

I think you are mixing the things up. National reconciliation ordinance was issued by Musharaf and this ordinance provided the legal clearance to Zardari for the office of President. PPP was of the mind that they shall get NRO passed through the national assembly so it shall get the proper legislation. PML-N opposed the move in the national assembly so PPP could never table it there. Later the supreme court declared NRO null and void by deeming it a violation of basic rights but Zardari by then had immunity under the above stated article 248.

Later when Zardari became a contender for the office of President , PML-N launched Justice Saeeduz zamaan Siddique as their presidential candidate. Zardari was voted for by PPP , MQM , ANP , FATA members and some independents. We have to keep in mind that no matter how much we dislike this act of the members of the upper and the lower house who voted for Zardari , it was their democratic right and it can not be deemed as a crime. The only way out in such a situation is to educate people about the character of such parliamentarians so that people can punish them in polls by not voting for them.

You are entitled to keep your opinion about judiciary but it is just rhetorical and deprived of any substance. The current judiciary is asset of the country and is the product of a long introspection in Pakistani society. The Judiciary has passed some landmark verdicts in very difficult situations and had there been any such scenario that you are pointing to , the judiciary would have take action.
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
1. Pakistani law does apply to Punjabi leaders. Javaid Hashmi , Yousaf Raza Gillani , Hamid Saeed Kazmi and various other politicians from Punjab have been serving in jails, Gillani has been sent home from PM house by the supreme court.

2. Kindly mention the cases in which Rafique Tarar unjustly supported Sharif family and it would be great if you can share the opinion of some senior lawyer about them. Any judge (or any person eligible for the seat of MNA) can become president.

3.Corruption cases do fall under criminal cases.

4.The claims of Baker are just claims as they have not been scrutinized by any court so i would apply "Innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

Here you are dealing with different readers. First you finish with Crank..........one to one.
 
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crankthskunk

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I think you are mixing the things up. National reconciliation ordinance was issued by Musharaf and this ordinance provided the legal clearance to Zardari for the office of President. PPP was of the mind that they shall get NRO passed through the national assembly so it shall get the proper legislation. PML-N opposed the move in the national assembly so PPP could never table it there. Later the supreme court declared NRO null and void by deeming it a violation of basic rights but Zardari by then had immunity under the above stated article 248.

Later when Zardari became a contender for the office of President , PML-N launched Justice Saeeduz zamaan Siddique as their presidential candidate. Zardari was voted for by PPP , MQM , ANP , FATA members and some independents. We have to keep in mind that no matter how much we dislike this act of the members of the upper and the lower house who voted for Zardari , it was their democratic right and it can not be deemed as a crime. The only way out in such a situation is to educate people about the character of such parliamentarians so that people can punish them in polls by not voting for them.

You are entitled to keep your opinion about judiciary but it is just rhetorical and deprived of any substance. The current judiciary is asset of the country and is the product of a long introspection in Pakistani society. The Judiciary has passed some landmark verdicts in very difficult situations and had there been any such scenario that you are pointing to , the judiciary would have take action.

You mean if a dictator whom your Sharifs hold responsible for all the ills to be fallen on them would have accepted his NRO too?????????????:lol::lol:
Secondly, if they didn't why they didn't challenge his nomination in the national assembly?
I know them choose the Justice against Zardari, the point is not that, point is they were chums of Zardari at the time. Who could forget about those meetings which later turned out to be "not Quran and Hadiths". Did Sharifs forgot at that time that Zardari is a convicted felon in an international court and they don't accept an arrangement by a dictator.
Oh yeah, I forgot at that time they were part of the Government and took oath from Zardari. Not to mention, it is your bari and our bari is next.
You didn't answer how Sharifs were eligible to stand in these elections, while having billions in outstanding loan which according to the rules disqualifies them from taking part. Until today no one from Sharifs have disputed they have unpaid loans.

As for judiciary, please do tell us, don't they know the rules on Stay orders? if they do, how these stay orders lasted for 18 years?

Secondly, didn't the judiciary knew the CPC provisions that providing a property as a lien which is not wholly owned by you is a crime under CPC? Even when Sharifs relatives filed in the court that Sharif brothers are not the sole owners of the property they have offered to the bank in lieu of the loans? Despite passing of decades, why Sharifs are out of the jail?

I wonder why everyone from PMLN and PPP runs away when I asked about their leader's finances. Accept the fact, I can prove Sharifs criminals in five minutes in a court of Law. And believe you me I can take on the best Pakistani lawyers there are.
 

Anmir

Minister (2k+ posts)
Democracy can be defined in many ways. The one i like the most comes from Bernard Shaw who said " Democracy is the form of government which ensures that people are governed by no better than they deserve". People have been bestowed with the rulers that they deserve. They have made their political opinion clear and now they shall suffer the consequences of their choice so let them suffer whatever good or bad consequences surface due to their choices. Democracy is a morally coherent idea where people get rewarded and punished per the quality of their choices. Its the people who are the givers and at the receiving end at the same time.So lets not worry as whatever shall happen , shall be morally justifiable and one does need to burn his heart over it.

Atif your definition of democracy is justified in all senses but you have to admit that mordern democracy has roots going back to over 500 years. pakistan is on its second term of democracy but unfortunately sitting from outside you can make an informed opinion and if you put your hand on your heart its been more of democratic dictatorship, when you see the role of the supreme court, the governments, implementation of the supreme courts directions and the hypocracy of the judiciary in the role it played in delivering the second democratic government and i can make a CALCULATED assumption the new government will feed the nation the same fruits as the past.
UNTAINTED people should take pakistan to the democratic future and not the tainted politicians who have been given the freedom pass . The chors who are tainted and only on the streets because of their abnoxious ability to avoid justice by what the have and whose blessing they have. the UNEDUCATED MASSES DESERVE BETTER FORGET DEMOCRACY YOUR SUPREME MAKER DEMANDS IT FROM A NATION CALLING ITSELF AS ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN. NO MATTER WHAT DEMOCRACY DELIVERS MY HEART WILL ALWAYS BURN FOR THE HAVE NOTS IT OUR MORAL DUTY TO CORRECT OUR ACTIONS
 
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Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
You mean if a dictator whom your Sharifs hold responsible for all the ills to be fallen on them would have accepted his NRO too?????????????:lol::lol:
Secondly, if they didn't why they didn't challenge his nomination in the national assembly?
I know them choose the Justice against Zardari, the point is not that, point is they were chums of Zardari at the time. Who could forget about those meetings which later turned out to be "not Quran and Hadiths". Did Sharifs forgot at that time that Zardari is a convicted felon in an international court and they don't accept an arrangement by a dictator.
Oh yeah, I forgot at that time they were part of the Government and took oath from Zardari. Not to mention, it is your bari and our bari is next.
You didn't answer how Sharifs were eligible to stand in these elections, while having billions in outstanding loan which according to the rules disqualifies them from taking part. Until today no one from Sharifs have disputed they have unpaid loans.

As for judiciary, please do tell us, don't they know the rules on Stay orders? if they do, how these stay orders lasted for 18 years?

Secondly, didn't the judiciary knew the CPC provisions that providing a property as a lien which is not wholly owned by you is a crime under CPC? Even when Sharifs relatives filed in the court that Sharif brothers are not the sole owners of the property they have offered to the bank in lieu of the loans? Despite passing of decades, why Sharifs are out of the jail?

I wonder why everyone from PMLN and PPP runs away when I asked about their leader's finances. Accept the fact, I can prove Sharifs criminals in five minutes in a court of Law. And believe you me I can take on the best Pakistani lawyers there are.


Again their is an obvious lack of clarity on your part which arises from your lack of acquaintance with the constitution of Pakistan. Having a grasp of the constitution is must for an analyst and political commentator. It shall save you from making all these random and irrational claims which have no real ground.

NRO was not a matter of acceptance or denial at all. The president had issued it as an ordinance and it was binding upon all to abide by it. An ordinance has to be approved by the national assembly before it becomes a permanent law. So it is trivial to say that the Sharifs would have accepted the NRO or not.Then , on what grounds should they have challenged the nomination papers of Zardari when he had already been acquitted from all his cases through presidential ordinance? This again reveals your lack of familiarity with the ground realities in Pakistan.

Nawaz-Zardari relations have to be understood and interpreted in the proper context. The charter of democracy was signed between PML-N and PPP long before Zardari resurfaced. COD is the first mature and thought out political understanding between the political forces of Pakistan. COD makes it very clear that no political party shall indulge into acts that can derail the democracy. The unwarranted derailing of democratic process is the major cause of our current mess. Nawaz Sharif gave all the space to Zardari and held to the tenets of COD and democratic traditions. One might call this exemplification of political maturity from Nawaz Sharif a friendly opposition but for me and most of the Pakistanis , it was a show of serious democratic attitude from PML-N that they distanced themselves from any ventures to disrupt PPP's mandate. PPP was ultimately punished for her deeds by the people of Pakistan and thats how political punishments are executed in democratic societies.When Zardari refused to honor his words regarding the restoration of judiciary , PML-N did come on streets and a long march was called. Rest of the events are too well known to be mentioned.

It is extremely immature to say that two political parties can give turns to each other as if after five years they would sign the government in the name of the other party. Its the vote of the people which brings parties into government and no matter how many turns they give to the two parties , their mandate has to be respected.

Which stay order has lasted for 18 years. Kindly do mention it.

As far as the rest of your claims are concerned , they are unfound. Had there been such cases against Nawaz Sharif , his papers would have been challenged on these grounds in the election commission and if so kindly do provide the details.
 

Democratic

Senator (1k+ posts)
Atif your definition of democracy is justified in all senses but you have to admit that mordern democracy has roots going back to over 500 years. pakistan is on its second term of democracy but unfortunately sitting from outside you can make an informed opinion and if you put your hand on your heart its been more of democratic dictatorship, when you see the role of the supreme court, the governments, implementation of the supreme courts directions and the hypocracy of the judiciary in the role it played in delivering the second democratic government and i can make a CALCULATED assumption the new government will feed the nation the same fruits as the past.
UNTAINTED people should take pakistan to the democratic future and not the tainted politicians who have been given the freedom pass . The chors who are tainted and only on the streets because of their abnoxious ability to avoid justice by what the have and whose blessing they have. the UNEDUCATED MASSES DESERVE BETTER FORGET DEMOCRACY YOUR SUPREME MAKER DEMANDS IT FROM A NATION CALLING ITSELF AS ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN. NO MATTER WHAT DEMOCRACY DELIVERS MY HEART WILL ALWAYS BURN FOR THE HAVE NOTS IT OUR MORAL DUTY TO CORRECT OUR ACTIONS

No matter how big of an idea and how coherent of a system Democracy is , it is not immune to relativistic absurdities and flaws. We all agree on the point that human will and intention can corrupt any system which seems to be ideal on papers and in theory. Same is true for democracy in Pakistan. It is a heterogeneous society where the optimum level of common understanding does not exist between the masses on various levels. The divisions inherited in the name of provincialism , racism and sectarianism make it almost impossible for a clear common opinion to surface. But whats the solution? More democracy i think. This polls have added to the nation building process and if it goes on , soon we shall have a homogeneous society in Pakistan in which most of your just reservations regarding the system shall get resolved. The way Urdu Speaking community of Karachi voted for Imran khan is a very positive indicator towards nation building.

The constitution of Pakistan ensures that all the candidates of Senate , National assembly and provincial assemblies go through a process of scrutiny. However , their are limits to that. The ultimate judges whether a politician is tainted or not are again the people of Pakistan. if anyone has issues with the fact that tainted politicians come into power then they should educate the masses regarding it instead of putting this burden on the shoulders of Judiciary or election commision. Lets remember the case of Jamshaid Dasti who got disqualified by the Supreme court a few years back due to his fake degree. The media ran a whole campaign against him but the people of his constituency got him elected with a bigger mandate. This time he has got elected over two seats of national assembly in independent capacity. What else can be said other than the fact that if people select bad ones , they shall punish the people for their wrong choice.
 

Syed Haider Imam

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
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