In story of prophet solomon we are told about hudhuda. Most people take it as a bird but actually it is something else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpjv2nAho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpjv2nAho
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Ehraz
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Contrary to popular belief, based on fable and fiction, Hudhud was not a bird employed by Solomon as his message-bearer since it was inconsistent with Solomon’s dignity as a great monarch and a Divine Prophet to be so angry with a small bird as to be prepared to inflict severe punishment upon it or even to kill it. Hudhud seems to be well-acquainted with the rulers and requirement of the States and also well-versed in the knowledge about Divine Unity which birds are not. Hudhud, being not a migratory bird, cannot fly distances and therefore could not have been selected for the journey to Sheba and back. It follows from these facts that Hudhud was not a bird but a man, even a very responsible officer of State or a general who had been entrusted with an important political mission by Solomon to the Queen of Sheba. The practice of exchange of envoys seems to have been quite popular in Solomon’s time. Moreover, it is known fact that men are named after birds and animals. Hudhud was a popular name among Solomon’s people.
Contrary to popular belief, based on fable and fiction, Hudhud was not a bird employed by Solomon as his message-bearer since it was inconsistent with Solomon’s dignity as a great monarch and a Divine Prophet to be so angry with a small bird as to be prepared to inflict severe punishment upon it or even to kill it. Hudhud seems to be well-acquainted with the rulers and requirement of the States and also well-versed in the knowledge about Divine Unity which birds are not. Hudhud, being not a migratory bird, cannot fly distances and therefore could not have been selected for the journey to Sheba and back. It follows from these facts that Hudhud was not a bird but a man, even a very responsible officer of State or a general who had been entrusted with an important political mission by Solomon to the Queen of Sheba. The practice of exchange of envoys seems to have been quite popular in Solomon’s time. Moreover, it is known fact that men are named after birds and animals. Hudhud was a popular name among Solomon’s people.
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
All pervaizi stuff....why we people are always reluctant to belive in miracles....please note that miracle or mojeza is something about which our discretion and wisdom can never think about. I wonder if we need to seek a reason behing every miracle. Just trying to weigh himalaya in the goldsmith's balance. If hudhud was a man, then solomon's father daud alaih-is-salam when he used to recite zaboor, then the birds would also be reciting with him. So were these birds also humans????again we should not think to invent a new tafseer rather we should bow our heads towards the tafasir of the earliest ages...as interpreted by the Holy Prophet pbuh and his Blessed companions.
All pervaizi stuff....why we people are always reluctant to belive in miracles....please note that miracle or mojeza is something about which our discretion and wisdom can never think about. I wonder if we need to seek a reason behing every miracle. Just trying to weigh himalaya in the goldsmith's balance. If hudhud was a man, then solomon's father daud alaih-is-salam when he used to recite zaboor, then the birds would also be reciting with him. So were these birds also humans????again we should not think to invent a new tafseer rather we should bow our heads towards the tafasir of the earliest ages...as interpreted by the Holy Prophet pbuh and his Blessed companions.
Ehraz
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Allah says in Quran: "Say, ‘Shall I inform you of those whose reward with Allah is worse than that? They are those whom Allah has cursed and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made apes and swine and who worship the Evil One. These indeed are in a worse plight, and farther astray from the right path." (5:61)
In surah Baqrah Jews are described as: "And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them: ‘Be ye apes, despised.’" (2:66)
Are we still reluctant to believe miracles? Please help me to understand your understanding of above 2 ayats. Were or are the Jews transformed into APES? I’ve never ever witnessed man transformed bodily into ape. You? You call us being reluctant to believe in miracles but couldn’t post any example from Quran and Hadith.
We should be rational and well aware if we interpret “miracles” mentioned in Quran.
The word “apes” has been used figuratively meaning that the Israelites became abject and mean like the monkeys, the transformation being NOT in BODY OR FORM but in CHARACTER and SPIRIT. They were not actually transformed into apes, only their hearts were changed. By the use this word it is intended to point out that just as apes or monkey are abject and despised animals, similarly the Jews will always remain humiliated in the world and, in spite of their great resources in wealth and education, will never be able to gain any stronghold on the earth; the root meaning of the word signifying abjectness and humiliation as well as groveling in the dust.
The words „apes“and „swine“have been used here in a figurative sense. Certain traits are peculiar to particular animals, and these cannot be fully described unless the animal to which they are known to belong is expressly named. The ape is noted for its mimicry and the swine is characterized by filthy and shameless habits and also by its stupidity. The expression, “who worship the Evil One,” shows that the words “apes” and “swine” have been used here figuratively.
Allah says in Quran: "Say, ‘Shall I inform you of those whose reward with Allah is worse than that? They are those whom Allah has cursed and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made apes and swine and who worship the Evil One. These indeed are in a worse plight, and farther astray from the right path." (5:61)
In surah Baqrah Jews are described as: "And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them: ‘Be ye apes, despised.’" (2:66)
Are we still reluctant to believe miracles? Please help me to understand your understanding of above 2 ayats. Were or are the Jews transformed into APES? I’ve never ever witnessed man transformed bodily into ape. You? You call us being reluctant to believe in miracles but couldn’t post any example from Quran and Hadith.
We should be rational and well aware if we interpret “miracles” mentioned in Quran.
The word “apes” has been used figuratively meaning that the Israelites became abject and mean like the monkeys, the transformation being NOT in BODY OR FORM but in CHARACTER and SPIRIT. They were not actually transformed into apes, only their hearts were changed. By the use this word it is intended to point out that just as apes or monkey are abject and despised animals, similarly the Jews will always remain humiliated in the world and, in spite of their great resources in wealth and education, will never be able to gain any stronghold on the earth; the root meaning of the word signifying abjectness and humiliation as well as groveling in the dust.
The words „apes“and „swine“have been used here in a figurative sense. Certain traits are peculiar to particular animals, and these cannot be fully described unless the animal to which they are known to belong is expressly named. The ape is noted for its mimicry and the swine is characterized by filthy and shameless habits and also by its stupidity. The expression, “who worship the Evil One,” shows that the words “apes” and “swine” have been used here figuratively.
Raaz
(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Every thing is clear in [HI]Surah Namal[/HI], Please read Surah namal and its translation.and get clear.
The same language and words and gramer is in use specially in Yemen. If the language changes , meaning changes.
This is miracle of Allah Talla , otherwise in 1400 years , not a single language is same . Lots of languages abolished and created , changed.
but Arabic is same.
وَرِثَ سُلَيْمَانُ دَاوُودَ*ۖ وَقَالَ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ عُلِّمْنَا مَنطِقَ [HI]الطَّيْرِ[/HI] وَأُوتِينَا مِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ*ۖ إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَهُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْمُبِينُ ﴿١٦﴾ وَحُشِرَ لِسُلَيْمَانَ جُنُودُهُ مِنَ [HI]الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ وَالطَّيْرِ[/HI] فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ ﴿١٧﴾ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَتَوْا عَلَىٰ وَادِ [HI]النَّمْلِ[/HI] قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّمْلُ ادْخُلُوا مَسَاكِنَكُمْ لَا يَحْطِمَنَّكُمْ سُلَيْمَانُ وَجُنُودُهُ وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ ﴿١٨﴾ فَتَبَسَّمَ ضَاحِكًا مِّن قَوْلِهَا وَقَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَدْخِلْنِي بِرَحْمَتِكَ فِي عِبَادِكَ الصَّالِحِينَ ﴿١٩﴾ وَتَفَقَّدَ [HI]الطَّيْرَ[/HI] فَقَالَ مَا لِيَ لَا أَرَى[HI] الْهُدْهُدَ[/HI] أَمْ كَانَ مِنَ الْغَائِبِينَ ﴿٢٠﴾ لَأُعَذِّبَنَّهُ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا أَوْ [HI]لَأَذْبَحَنَّهُ[/HI] أَوْ لَيَأْتِيَنِّي بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ ﴿٢١﴾ فَمَكَثَ غَيْرَ بَعِيدٍ فَقَالَ أَحَطتُ بِمَا لَمْ تُحِطْ بِهِ وَجِئْتُكَ مِن سَبَإٍ بِنَبَإٍ يَقِينٍ ﴿٢٢﴾
اور داؤدؑ کا وارث سلیمانؑ ہوا اور اس نے کہا "“لوگو، ہمیں [HI]پرندوں کی بولیاں[/HI] سکھائی گئی ہیں اور ہمیں ہر طرح کی چیزیں دی گئی ہیں، بیشک یہ (اللہ کا) نمایاں فضل ہے" (١٦) سلیمانؑ کے لیے [HI]جن اور انسانوں اور پرندوں [/HI]کے لشکر جمع کیے گئے تھے اور وہ پورے ضبط میں رکھے جاتے تھے (١٧) (ایک مرتبہ وہ ان کے ساتھ کوچ کر رہا تھا) یہاں تک کہ جب یہ سب[HI] چیونٹیوں[/HI] کی وادی میں پہنچے تو ایک چیونٹی نے کہا "“اے چیونٹیو، اپنے بلوں میں گھس جاؤ، کہیں ایسا نہ ہو کہ سلیمانؑ اور اس کے لشکر تمہیں کچل ڈالیں اور انہیں خبر بھی نہ ہو" (١٨) [HI]سلیمانؑ اس کی بات پر مُسکراتے[/HI] ہوئے ہنس پڑا اور بولا "اے میرے رب، مجھے قابو میں رکھ کہ میں تیرے اس احسان کا شکر ادا کرتا رہوں جو تو نے مجھ پر اور میرے والدین پر کیا ہے اور ایسا عمل صالح کروں جو تجھے پسند آئے اور اپنی رحمت سے مجھ کو اپنے صالح بندوں میں داخل کر" (١٩) (ایک اور موقع پر) سلیمانؑ نے [HI]پرندوں[/HI] کا جائزہ لیا اور کہا “کیا بات ہے کہ میں فلاں [HI]ہُد ہُد[/HI] کو نہیں دیکھ رہا ہوں کیا وہ کہیں غائب ہو گیا ہے؟ (٢٠) میں اسے سخت سزا دوں گا، یا [HI]ذبح[/HI] کر دوں گا، ورنہ اسے میرے سامنے معقول وجہ پیش کرنی ہو گی (٢١) کچھ زیادہ دیر نہ گزری تھی کہ اُس نے آ کر کہا "“میں نے وہ معلومات حاصل کی ہیں جو آپ کے علم میں نہیں ہیں میں سَبا کے متعلق یقینی اطلاع لے کر آیا ہوں (٢٢)
اور داؤدؑ کا وارث سلیمانؑ ہوا اور اس نے کہا "“لوگو، ہمیں [HI]پرندوں کی بولیاں[/HI] سکھائی گئی ہیں اور ہمیں ہر طرح کی چیزیں دی گئی ہیں، بیشک یہ (اللہ کا) نمایاں فضل ہے" (١٦) سلیمانؑ کے لیے [HI]جن اور انسانوں اور پرندوں [/HI]کے لشکر جمع کیے گئے تھے اور وہ پورے ضبط میں رکھے جاتے تھے (١٧) (ایک مرتبہ وہ ان کے ساتھ کوچ کر رہا تھا) یہاں تک کہ جب یہ سب[HI] چیونٹیوں[/HI] کی وادی میں پہنچے تو ایک چیونٹی نے کہا "“اے چیونٹیو، اپنے بلوں میں گھس جاؤ، کہیں ایسا نہ ہو کہ سلیمانؑ اور اس کے لشکر تمہیں کچل ڈالیں اور انہیں خبر بھی نہ ہو" (١٨) [HI]سلیمانؑ اس کی بات پر مُسکراتے[/HI] ہوئے ہنس پڑا اور بولا "اے میرے رب، مجھے قابو میں رکھ کہ میں تیرے اس احسان کا شکر ادا کرتا رہوں جو تو نے مجھ پر اور میرے والدین پر کیا ہے اور ایسا عمل صالح کروں جو تجھے پسند آئے اور اپنی رحمت سے مجھ کو اپنے صالح بندوں میں داخل کر" (١٩) (ایک اور موقع پر) سلیمانؑ نے [HI]پرندوں[/HI] کا جائزہ لیا اور کہا “کیا بات ہے کہ میں فلاں [HI]ہُد ہُد[/HI] کو نہیں دیکھ رہا ہوں کیا وہ کہیں غائب ہو گیا ہے؟ (٢٠) میں اسے سخت سزا دوں گا، یا [HI]ذبح[/HI] کر دوں گا، ورنہ اسے میرے سامنے معقول وجہ پیش کرنی ہو گی (٢١) کچھ زیادہ دیر نہ گزری تھی کہ اُس نے آ کر کہا "“میں نے وہ معلومات حاصل کی ہیں جو آپ کے علم میں نہیں ہیں میں سَبا کے متعلق یقینی اطلاع لے کر آیا ہوں (٢٢)
Every thing is clear in [HI]Surah Namal[/HI], Please read Surah namal and its translation.and get clear.
Quran is not a riddle. and there is no change in names and language yet.
Allah has saved the Quran and the Arabic language also since last 1400 years.
Allah has saved the Quran and the Arabic language also since last 1400 years.
The same language and words and gramer is in use specially in Yemen. If the language changes , meaning changes.
This is miracle of Allah Talla , otherwise in 1400 years , not a single language is same . Lots of languages abolished and created , changed.
but Arabic is same.
Last edited:
Ehraz
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006062
The Sonship of Jesus Christ.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006062
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Thank you dear behzadji for raising the points and and giving me the opportunity to explain the issues raised further.
You ar absolutely right the quran is ultimate authority and the ahadith or tafaseer as well if they are based upon the correct interpretations of the quran.
The discussion is mainly about which interpretation of the quranic text is correct. It would always seem correct that if we can explain something in ordinary terms then it is the right interpretation.
A supernatural event cannot be explained in ordinary terms at all eg look at the quranic text, it is using ordinary words yet contruction of verses is such that it is not possible for humans to reproduce anything like it despite the example already being there. The other example can be taken of origin of universe. No matter how hard scientists are trying to explain it they cannot.
One can also take the idea of divine revelation and you can again see that none is able to explain so far how Allah revealed his message to his prophets.
If you think about these things you will see that these are supernatural events because they are beyond human explanation.
On the other hand we have turned a lot of events into miracles which may well be not quite ordinary events but they are still explainable by way of other ordinary explanations.
It will be wrong to claim something is miracle and then someone comes forward and explain well that is not miracle because this is how it exactly happened.
In fact take a magician's trick for example, so long as you do not know how he is doing it, you enjoy it but when you also come to know how it is done then you are no longer as interested in it as you were before you uncovered it.
It is therefore not a good idea to claim everything as miracle because world already knows that those events are not miracles.
Also whatever cannot be explained or reproduced in any respect does not come under laws of nature. For laws are deduced from reoccurring phenomena and processes not one off events that have no explanations and may never have one.
If we look back in history, people never produced anything like divine books this is why we do not have any books like the quran or torah or injeel etc. The existence of religious scriptures does point to the fact that people did try it and are still trying it.
People have been trying their best to explain origin of universe but nothing is there yet.
People still cannot explain how divine revelation finds its way into human brain.
Since we have good solid explanations for words used in the quran eg jinns, malaaika, shiyateen etc, so why are we trying to mystify them?
As for prophet dawud, again it is matter of interpretation ie what is meant by jibaal, taair etc.
All this makes perfect sense when we look at need for prophets for humanity and what they bring from god and why god sends them to people. It is all about Allah setting goals for people and telling them to get on with establishing them. In this struggle the prophets show by their examples how to put things right here on the earth with hereafter accountability in mind as well beside consequences in this life.
The quran is not about Allah doing things for people but that Allah is telling people what to do and how to do it and then tells them get on with what you are told. It is like a father tells his children how to live their lives making clear to then what they need to keep in mind to go about what they need to do.
Because we overlook the divine purpose for humanity we start inventing our own concepts and then try to look for evidences in the quran to support those ideas. This takes us away from what Allah wanted us to do.
Allah has given us brain to use and brain is a biological logical processing unit which when thinks does not accept things that confuse because they give it trouble. To stay safe and free of trouble it therefore sticks to logic and rationality.
This is how I understand things from the quran and the hadith.
regards and all the best.
Thank you dear behzadji for raising the points and and giving me the opportunity to explain the issues raised further.
You ar absolutely right the quran is ultimate authority and the ahadith or tafaseer as well if they are based upon the correct interpretations of the quran.
The discussion is mainly about which interpretation of the quranic text is correct. It would always seem correct that if we can explain something in ordinary terms then it is the right interpretation.
A supernatural event cannot be explained in ordinary terms at all eg look at the quranic text, it is using ordinary words yet contruction of verses is such that it is not possible for humans to reproduce anything like it despite the example already being there. The other example can be taken of origin of universe. No matter how hard scientists are trying to explain it they cannot.
One can also take the idea of divine revelation and you can again see that none is able to explain so far how Allah revealed his message to his prophets.
If you think about these things you will see that these are supernatural events because they are beyond human explanation.
On the other hand we have turned a lot of events into miracles which may well be not quite ordinary events but they are still explainable by way of other ordinary explanations.
It will be wrong to claim something is miracle and then someone comes forward and explain well that is not miracle because this is how it exactly happened.
In fact take a magician's trick for example, so long as you do not know how he is doing it, you enjoy it but when you also come to know how it is done then you are no longer as interested in it as you were before you uncovered it.
It is therefore not a good idea to claim everything as miracle because world already knows that those events are not miracles.
Also whatever cannot be explained or reproduced in any respect does not come under laws of nature. For laws are deduced from reoccurring phenomena and processes not one off events that have no explanations and may never have one.
If we look back in history, people never produced anything like divine books this is why we do not have any books like the quran or torah or injeel etc. The existence of religious scriptures does point to the fact that people did try it and are still trying it.
People have been trying their best to explain origin of universe but nothing is there yet.
People still cannot explain how divine revelation finds its way into human brain.
Since we have good solid explanations for words used in the quran eg jinns, malaaika, shiyateen etc, so why are we trying to mystify them?
As for prophet dawud, again it is matter of interpretation ie what is meant by jibaal, taair etc.
All this makes perfect sense when we look at need for prophets for humanity and what they bring from god and why god sends them to people. It is all about Allah setting goals for people and telling them to get on with establishing them. In this struggle the prophets show by their examples how to put things right here on the earth with hereafter accountability in mind as well beside consequences in this life.
The quran is not about Allah doing things for people but that Allah is telling people what to do and how to do it and then tells them get on with what you are told. It is like a father tells his children how to live their lives making clear to then what they need to keep in mind to go about what they need to do.
Because we overlook the divine purpose for humanity we start inventing our own concepts and then try to look for evidences in the quran to support those ideas. This takes us away from what Allah wanted us to do.
Allah has given us brain to use and brain is a biological logical processing unit which when thinks does not accept things that confuse because they give it trouble. To stay safe and free of trouble it therefore sticks to logic and rationality.
This is how I understand things from the quran and the hadith.
regards and all the best.
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Story of Jesus
http://www.parvez-video.com/RamzanSpecial/Truth-about-Maryam/Verse22-39/A1922-39.mp3
http://www.parvez-video.com/RamzanSpecial/Truth-about-Maryam/Verse22-39/B1922-39.mp3
hidden story of jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTyn7GxqLFg&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrCug6zx3Hg
Story of Jesus
http://www.parvez-video.com/RamzanSpecial/Truth-about-Maryam/Verse22-39/A1922-39.mp3
http://www.parvez-video.com/RamzanSpecial/Truth-about-Maryam/Verse22-39/B1922-39.mp3
hidden story of jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTyn7GxqLFg&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrCug6zx3Hg
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Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Dear jaldikar, the real question is not whether Jesus has a father or not but that does any such claim serves any useful purpose at all? Is such a claim consistent with quranic set up regarding God and humanity?
How can something be a miracle which cannot even be proven a miracle? Claims must be evidences if they are to be believed. Also they need to be believable.
How do we prove virgin birth? According to torah fornication is punishable by stoning to death. A girl who is found pregnant without being married would not be believed if she told people that she is pregnant with a miracle baby. She would be disowned by her family and relatives. The same on the other hand could open door for other girls who get into this state.
The main problem would be that such a thing would be an unexpected thing because this is not a human experience that a women can give birth to a baby without the help of man. Such a miracle would actually disprove the claim than prove it.
According to the quran, prophets always used their past as evidence more than the future. If extra ordinary things happen in the world randomly then the whole idea that the world proves anything becomes absurd because in that case nothing remain stable to be used as evidence. It would be impossible to derive laws of nature by observing the natural world in that case.
So people who are quick to claim miracles do not realise what it means about the natural world. This is why word sunnah has value because Allah is telling us this world works in a fixed way. People will always find it working the same way because that is how Allah makes things work. If Allah did things every which way, we will become totally confused. Nothing will make any sense whatsoever because each time you try to make sense of something it would change so you will have to start all over again and again you will end up the same way.
It is like you are playing a game with a baby and keep moving the goal post the way it suits you but not the baby so baby will become confused and uninterested or bored. It is natural that you try to attempt doing things that you think you can do. When task is understood to be impossible then you see no point in attempting it any more.
As for the quran, there is nothing in it to give rise to the make belief that most people have taken up without any proper thought. Instead they are trying to push their make belief into the quran.
The quran goes to such lengths to explain natural world phenomena and processes, one has to ask what for? So that people leave their thoughtless nonsense and become thoughtful and sensible.
This is why discussions are important so that we could see clearly what is right or what is wrong regarding a matter.
Whoever talks sense should become clear that way and whoever talks for sake of talking also becomes clear for those who have knowledge and can think.
If one solves a mathematical problems for people, it will only make sense to those who have ability to understand it not the rest till they too enable themselves to be capable of doing so.
Hope this explains why I have the views the way I have them about this issue under discussion. Like everyone else I too am open to learning so I too am bound to change my views depending upon the available evidences.
This is why I think we should follow evidence not just baseless ideas or concepts or beliefs. To do this is vital for our unity as human beings. otherwise there is nothing else there as basis that could convince us to unite on same ground.
regards and all the best.
Dear jaldikar, the real question is not whether Jesus has a father or not but that does any such claim serves any useful purpose at all? Is such a claim consistent with quranic set up regarding God and humanity?
How can something be a miracle which cannot even be proven a miracle? Claims must be evidences if they are to be believed. Also they need to be believable.
How do we prove virgin birth? According to torah fornication is punishable by stoning to death. A girl who is found pregnant without being married would not be believed if she told people that she is pregnant with a miracle baby. She would be disowned by her family and relatives. The same on the other hand could open door for other girls who get into this state.
The main problem would be that such a thing would be an unexpected thing because this is not a human experience that a women can give birth to a baby without the help of man. Such a miracle would actually disprove the claim than prove it.
According to the quran, prophets always used their past as evidence more than the future. If extra ordinary things happen in the world randomly then the whole idea that the world proves anything becomes absurd because in that case nothing remain stable to be used as evidence. It would be impossible to derive laws of nature by observing the natural world in that case.
So people who are quick to claim miracles do not realise what it means about the natural world. This is why word sunnah has value because Allah is telling us this world works in a fixed way. People will always find it working the same way because that is how Allah makes things work. If Allah did things every which way, we will become totally confused. Nothing will make any sense whatsoever because each time you try to make sense of something it would change so you will have to start all over again and again you will end up the same way.
It is like you are playing a game with a baby and keep moving the goal post the way it suits you but not the baby so baby will become confused and uninterested or bored. It is natural that you try to attempt doing things that you think you can do. When task is understood to be impossible then you see no point in attempting it any more.
As for the quran, there is nothing in it to give rise to the make belief that most people have taken up without any proper thought. Instead they are trying to push their make belief into the quran.
The quran goes to such lengths to explain natural world phenomena and processes, one has to ask what for? So that people leave their thoughtless nonsense and become thoughtful and sensible.
This is why discussions are important so that we could see clearly what is right or what is wrong regarding a matter.
Whoever talks sense should become clear that way and whoever talks for sake of talking also becomes clear for those who have knowledge and can think.
If one solves a mathematical problems for people, it will only make sense to those who have ability to understand it not the rest till they too enable themselves to be capable of doing so.
Hope this explains why I have the views the way I have them about this issue under discussion. Like everyone else I too am open to learning so I too am bound to change my views depending upon the available evidences.
This is why I think we should follow evidence not just baseless ideas or concepts or beliefs. To do this is vital for our unity as human beings. otherwise there is nothing else there as basis that could convince us to unite on same ground.
regards and all the best.
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biomat
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Jaza-k-ALLAH bhai Raaz & Assalam-o-alaikum
First REJECT HADEETHS as man made, then DISCUSS new topic, WRONG TAFASEERS, then discuss WRONG TRANSLATION, in last discuss THIS QURAN IS IN THIS FORM BY HAZRAT USMAN (RA) so all ISLAM IS FAKE..
Trust me there are tons of websites & blogs spreading these so called SELF TAUGHT SCHOLARS OF ISLAM. Creating misconceptions in YOUNG MIND & thus make them AETHIEST..
=====================
Jaza-k-ALLAH bhai Raaz & Assalam-o-alaikum
First REJECT HADEETHS as man made, then DISCUSS new topic, WRONG TAFASEERS, then discuss WRONG TRANSLATION, in last discuss THIS QURAN IS IN THIS FORM BY HAZRAT USMAN (RA) so all ISLAM IS FAKE..
Trust me there are tons of websites & blogs spreading these so called SELF TAUGHT SCHOLARS OF ISLAM. Creating misconceptions in YOUNG MIND & thus make them AETHIEST..
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
copied from your own website Ehraz
In previous Ayath it is being explain that Hazrat Suleman AS was tauhght language of Birds
READ
Then in the verse under discussion. your own source
In English Translation It is being translated as "BIRDS"
But in URDU They change the meaning
and then for one Ayath word Tair is explained as horse and for the they Ayath underdiscussion it is explained as Man
So one line
Oh Come on stop twisting Quran.
copied from your own website Ehraz
In previous Ayath it is being explain that Hazrat Suleman AS was tauhght language of Birds
READ
Then in the verse under discussion. your own source
In English Translation It is being translated as "BIRDS"
But in URDU They change the meaning
and then for one Ayath word Tair is explained as horse and for the they Ayath underdiscussion it is explained as Man
So one line
Oh Come on stop twisting Quran.
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
The Ayath previous to this Ayath is clearly talk about BIRDS. that Hazrat Suliman AS was Taught the language of Birds.
it shows that it indeed talk about BIRD not a MAN.
secondly
Zibaah Karoon ga also shows that it talk about some bird.
So please stop reading Translation of your own choice
or i must say stop translating Quran as you like.
The Ayath previous to this Ayath is clearly talk about BIRDS. that Hazrat Suliman AS was Taught the language of Birds.
it shows that it indeed talk about BIRD not a MAN.
secondly
Zibaah Karoon ga also shows that it talk about some bird.
So please stop reading Translation of your own choice
or i must say stop translating Quran as you like.
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
I have previously shown you that your Murabis mistranslated the quran in try to prove all Miracles as ordinary events
and i show it using your own sources your website
I have previously shown you that your Murabis mistranslated the quran in try to prove all Miracles as ordinary events
and i show it using your own sources your website
Last edited:
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
Ahmadis always said(in try to prove that miracle can not be something un netural) that Nothing could happen out of natural things.
But please at least READ what your own NABI(false) said
And this
that Allah do thing that looks unnatural when DEEN needs it.
when will you answer anything with solid prove or logic.
or when you will accept if can not answer
do it before it is to late
Ahmadis always said(in try to prove that miracle can not be something un netural) that Nothing could happen out of natural things.
But please at least READ what your own NABI(false) said
And this
that Allah do thing that looks unnatural when DEEN needs it.
when will you answer anything with solid prove or logic.
or when you will accept if can not answer
do it before it is to late
Last edited:
Ehraz
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
It is not about the Translation of Quran, it is more about its interpretation of certain ayahs, which according to your understanding should be taken as literally and not as metaphorically.
The Thread owner started this Thread to exchange views and perspectives.
If we start taking Quranic Ayahs literally, then we would be in big trouble to explain things which are very well known to us.
To demonstrate I'll show different ayahs from the Quran to see, how things can/could look alike when we interpret them literally.
In Quran the word nazul is used as "sent down" The Arabic word nazul literally means descent.Now, it is quite wrong to think that the word nazul always means descent from an eminence. The word descent only points to how important, significant and far-reaching the thing is which is to descend. It tells us that the thing to descend is to be the instrument of the Majesty and Power of God. Such things are said to descend from God to a people. This meaning of descent (sending down) is in confirmity with usage sanctioned by the Holy Quran in several passages.
"Then Allah sent down His peace upon His messenger." (9 : 26)
"Then after the sorrow, He sent down peace on you, a slumber that overcame a party of you." (3: 155)
"And He has sent down eight head of cattle in pairs." (39 : 7)
"We have indeed sent down raiment to you to cover your shame, and to be an elegant dress; but the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. That is one of the Signs of Allah that they may remember." (7: 27)
"And sent down on you Manna and Salwa" (2: 58)
"And We sent down iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and many benefits for mankind and that Allah may distinguish those who help Him and His Messengers without having seen Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty." (57: 26)
"And if Allah should enlarge the provision for His servants, they would rebel in the earth; but He sends down according to a proper measure as He pleases. Indeed, He is All-Aware and All-Seeing with regard to His servants." (42: 28)
Everybody knows that peace is a quality of the human mind and sleep a function of human brain. Animals, garments, green fields, quails (salwa), iron, and other things grow on the soil or come from under it. They do not descend or drop down from heaven. Nor is their descent from heaven a description sanctioned by the Holy Quran. The description of the Holy Quran is quite clear. It says:
"And He put therein firm mountains on the surface, and He put blessings therein and measured its food therein into four periods, alike for all seekers."(41: 11)
In this verse, God points out that they whole subject of the creation of nature and the creation of different kinds of wealth needs for its comprehension a knowledge of the different sciences.
This knowledge God reveals in pieces. Some of it has been revealed already, some will be revealed in time to come. Ever new questions will be raised and they will received their answers. But, says God, We have described the creation of nature and the creation of the wealth of nature in such a way that all men at all times (according to their capacity) will find in them a description which would be both satisfying and true.From the Holy Quran, therefore, it appears that all things in nature descend from God - are gifted by God - and yet they do not drop from Heaven. Their creation takes place in and on and through this very earth. They grow on it or show themselves from under its surface.
Refs giving by you are correct but you failed to understand their meaning mentioned in footnote. So, please don't make other responsible for your own misunderstanding. Read footnote 2159 and things will come clear in front of you. I think is not your intention. Your intention is to prove my Jamaat with all your hard-effort wrong. :-) But be assured, people before you and your high standard ullemas tried their best to prove this and that, but failed in it hard.
Bring solid argument from Quran to counter ours. Otherwise it would "he say, she say" stuff.
Mughal1 and I trying to understand the arguments, plausibility and logic of ayahs interpretation and provide our understanding or suggestions about how one could understand the content. It is your right to disagree with me or with Mughal1, but don't post things which you self failed to understand or to explain.
Btw. Still waiting information about your African friend. ;-)
Thanks again to giving me a chance to make things clear for your poor and stubborn understanding or interpretation of Quran.copied from your own website Ehraz
In previous Ayath it is being explain that Hazrat Suleman AS was tauhght language of Birds
READ
Then in the verse under discussion. your own source
In English Translation It is being translated as "BIRDS"
But in URDU They change the meaning
and then for one Ayath word Tair is explained as horse and for the they Ayath underdiscussion it is explained as Man
So one line
Oh Come on stop twisting Quran.
It is not about the Translation of Quran, it is more about its interpretation of certain ayahs, which according to your understanding should be taken as literally and not as metaphorically.
The Thread owner started this Thread to exchange views and perspectives.
If we start taking Quranic Ayahs literally, then we would be in big trouble to explain things which are very well known to us.
To demonstrate I'll show different ayahs from the Quran to see, how things can/could look alike when we interpret them literally.
In Quran the word nazul is used as "sent down" The Arabic word nazul literally means descent.Now, it is quite wrong to think that the word nazul always means descent from an eminence. The word descent only points to how important, significant and far-reaching the thing is which is to descend. It tells us that the thing to descend is to be the instrument of the Majesty and Power of God. Such things are said to descend from God to a people. This meaning of descent (sending down) is in confirmity with usage sanctioned by the Holy Quran in several passages.
"Then Allah sent down His peace upon His messenger." (9 : 26)
"Then after the sorrow, He sent down peace on you, a slumber that overcame a party of you." (3: 155)
"And He has sent down eight head of cattle in pairs." (39 : 7)
"We have indeed sent down raiment to you to cover your shame, and to be an elegant dress; but the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. That is one of the Signs of Allah that they may remember." (7: 27)
"And sent down on you Manna and Salwa" (2: 58)
"And We sent down iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and many benefits for mankind and that Allah may distinguish those who help Him and His Messengers without having seen Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty." (57: 26)
"And if Allah should enlarge the provision for His servants, they would rebel in the earth; but He sends down according to a proper measure as He pleases. Indeed, He is All-Aware and All-Seeing with regard to His servants." (42: 28)
Everybody knows that peace is a quality of the human mind and sleep a function of human brain. Animals, garments, green fields, quails (salwa), iron, and other things grow on the soil or come from under it. They do not descend or drop down from heaven. Nor is their descent from heaven a description sanctioned by the Holy Quran. The description of the Holy Quran is quite clear. It says:
"And He put therein firm mountains on the surface, and He put blessings therein and measured its food therein into four periods, alike for all seekers."(41: 11)
In this verse, God points out that they whole subject of the creation of nature and the creation of different kinds of wealth needs for its comprehension a knowledge of the different sciences.
This knowledge God reveals in pieces. Some of it has been revealed already, some will be revealed in time to come. Ever new questions will be raised and they will received their answers. But, says God, We have described the creation of nature and the creation of the wealth of nature in such a way that all men at all times (according to their capacity) will find in them a description which would be both satisfying and true.From the Holy Quran, therefore, it appears that all things in nature descend from God - are gifted by God - and yet they do not drop from Heaven. Their creation takes place in and on and through this very earth. They grow on it or show themselves from under its surface.
Refs giving by you are correct but you failed to understand their meaning mentioned in footnote. So, please don't make other responsible for your own misunderstanding. Read footnote 2159 and things will come clear in front of you. I think is not your intention. Your intention is to prove my Jamaat with all your hard-effort wrong. :-) But be assured, people before you and your high standard ullemas tried their best to prove this and that, but failed in it hard.
Bring solid argument from Quran to counter ours. Otherwise it would "he say, she say" stuff.
Mughal1 and I trying to understand the arguments, plausibility and logic of ayahs interpretation and provide our understanding or suggestions about how one could understand the content. It is your right to disagree with me or with Mughal1, but don't post things which you self failed to understand or to explain.
Btw. Still waiting information about your African friend. ;-)
Last edited:
Ehraz
MPA (400+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
“And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers."(3:50)
Can you please show me the BIRD fashioned by Jesus(as) and the BIRD fashioned Allah Almighty? Or kitnay Murdoon ko Hazrat Isa(as) ne Zinda kia? Kia jab Hazrat Isa(as) aasaman se wapiss aingay to murdoon ko zinda karaingay? Please explain how you do interpret this.
I remember that someone asked a Maulana Sahib about this matter. He asked Maulana Sahib: can you please show us the difference between bird made by Isa(as) and the bird made by Allah? Maulana Sahib replied in hurry - wo sarre mill mull gai ne... Lol!
Logic: like Mughal1 said: "whatever cannot be explained or reproduced in any respect does not come under laws of nature."
“And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers."(3:50)
Can you please show me the BIRD fashioned by Jesus(as) and the BIRD fashioned Allah Almighty? Or kitnay Murdoon ko Hazrat Isa(as) ne Zinda kia? Kia jab Hazrat Isa(as) aasaman se wapiss aingay to murdoon ko zinda karaingay? Please explain how you do interpret this.
I remember that someone asked a Maulana Sahib about this matter. He asked Maulana Sahib: can you please show us the difference between bird made by Isa(as) and the bird made by Allah? Maulana Sahib replied in hurry - wo sarre mill mull gai ne... Lol!
Logic: like Mughal1 said: "whatever cannot be explained or reproduced in any respect does not come under laws of nature."
Last edited:
Abdul Allah
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Hudhuda insaan ys parinda?
OH COME ON
Did i say that a word can not have multiple meaning.
???
But a word on same place can not have Different meaning.
the bunch of Ayath is talking about one single event.
but you people used
Tair word as three different meanings although they are not.
at first place it is BIRD as per your own source where it is said. Parindoon ke zubaan sikhai
It clearly shows that this part of Sura is talking about ACTUAL BIRDS not your self imaginary things
your english translation use word BIRD and urdu translation use Buland Khayal Admi for SAME AYATH??? WHAT are you translating Quran seriously???
you do not answer any of my question but try redirect things what i never said.
I never said that a word have one meaning. but you focus on that. but did not answer my question.
you must be talking about 2160 not 2159.
which african friend you are talking about. as i have few.
OH COME ON
Did i say that a word can not have multiple meaning.
???
But a word on same place can not have Different meaning.
the bunch of Ayath is talking about one single event.
but you people used
Tair word as three different meanings although they are not.
at first place it is BIRD as per your own source where it is said. Parindoon ke zubaan sikhai
It clearly shows that this part of Sura is talking about ACTUAL BIRDS not your self imaginary things
your english translation use word BIRD and urdu translation use Buland Khayal Admi for SAME AYATH??? WHAT are you translating Quran seriously???
you do not answer any of my question but try redirect things what i never said.
I never said that a word have one meaning. but you focus on that. but did not answer my question.
you must be talking about 2160 not 2159.
which african friend you are talking about. as i have few.
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