اقبال اور جمہوریت

atensari

(50k+ posts) بابائے فورم
main iqbal ko sirf aik shaair ke tor per dekhta hoon or bas, or nazriat or phalsapha shaairi ke zariay bhi phailaya ja sakta hai.... iqbal ki shairi ka doosra rukh bhi issi liay dikhaya tha ke dono pehloo nazar aa sakain.....

jis jis ne bhi pakistan ki mukhalifat ki wo aaj ke pakistan ke karta dharta hain.... oosi main se aik tabqa wo hai jo angraiz nawaz khandano se taluq rakta hai jaisay hamaray bohat se vaderay, nawab or jageerdar, doosra tabqa wo jo pakistan ka mukhalif tha jaisay ANP or molvi.... teesra jo apni taqat ke nashay main hai jaisay army, adlia or sarkari adaray....

jinah ka qatal se le ker bangla ki alehdgi, nationalisation se le ker zia ul haq ki jihadiat or musharaf ki madar pider azadiat tak sab apnay apnay mufadat ki jang hai jis main sab ko apni apni bari leni hai.....or bas

جسے آپ دوسرا رخ کہہ رہے ہیں وہ دراصل پہلا دور ہے. عمر کے ساتھ مشاہدہ بڑھا نظریات بدلے اور شاعری کے موضوعات بھی

آپ کی بقیہ باتوں سے اتفاق ہے. پاکستان مطلب اور موقع پرست لیڈروں کی چنگل میں پھنسا ہوا ہے اور عوام مصلحتوں کا شکار ہو کر تماشا دیکھ رہی ہے
 

Bret Hawk

Senator (1k+ posts)
Sorry. I dint know that Arabic language was "Science".
Can i doubt this statement or is it a Wahi, absolute, definitive, and beyond-questioning?
Okay, I choose to doubt.


Language of Quran has been a topic of great debate right from the beginning. Very eloquent and very appealing. Prophet SAw was called "Poet" for a reason. People fail to understand the idea behind this allegation. "Poetry" was a common medium of communication back then, amongst Urban Arabs. Abu Bakar, Bilal, Abu Jahal, Abu Talib, Ka'b, Hamza etc etc have recorded pieces of poetry as part of a discourse on different occasions. In a Society where even uneducated slaves usedPoetry as a medium of speech, calling someone a POET was indeed an acknowledgement of his eloquence.

In the setting where all of Meccans, headed by Utba, called upon Prophet SAW and asked him his wishes for stop cursing their Idols and Gods, it was blamed on Prophet SAW that he'd learnt to read from a man called "Abdul Rehman". (Which He SAW did not refuse. He SAW dint speak about it at all).

Once Utba (Who had a soft corner for Prophet SAW), who was the most powerful Chief of Mecca, he went to convince Prophet SAW that Prophet SAW shouldn't not curse their Gods. When he came back, people ask him whether he'd convinced Mohammad SAW. He dint reply. People blamed he was spellbound by Mohamamd SAW.

Once when all of Arab Chiefs were present, they just wanted Mohammad SAW to stop cursing their Gods. They offered Him to keep preaching His Religion and live in co-existence. Every time Arabs came to Abu Talib, they came for just one thing. Tell Mogammad SAW NOT to curse our forefathers, our elders, our Gods, and our Religion. In the beginning until the day Meccans became certain that Mohammad SAW had military plans in mind, they never told Prophet SAW to stop preaching his thoughts. Their only demand was that Mohammad SAW should cease cursing their elders and Gods.
Question is, what made Meccans so distrubed if a man who dint hold a good social standing in the city, cursed their Gods? Why'd they feel so distressed? Could they not simply ignore him?
Answer of this question lies in Prophet SAW eloquent and powerful speech. He knew how to disturb others. He knew the capacity of expression of words. He knew what words would hit what nerve.

Once when Chiefs of Mecca asked Utba to solve the matter with Mohammad SAW, Utba called upon people to understand their opinion about the "Nature of Abilities" of Mohammad. His eloquence of speech was discussed there. Prophet SAW was called "An expert of the Art of the Ancients".

Though Abu Jahal was never impressed. Prophet SAW uncle Abu Lahab was never impressed. You know why?
Because Abu Jahal himself was a great poet. He was a very eloquent person himself.


And by the way, who wrote the Quran Manuscript at Birmingham Museum? Who wrote? Who was the Writer? There were only 55 men and 4 women who could write. Women couldnt write so well, I reckon. So who wrote that Quran? Who was the person who knew writing but his name could never come along? None of the Sahaba told in any of the Ahadith that they'd written whole Quran. Was it Mohammad SAW himself? Did he know writing? The allegation made against Him SAW that He SAW had known to reading and writing was correct?

I find it ironically funny that 1500 years ago, Kufar were saying that Quran was "The Art of the Ancients" and 1500 years after that Muslims are saying that Quran is "Science".
Its neither. Its just a "Creation". Whoever created it was a very bright and eloquent person who was very well aware of customs and culture of Mecca and who had an extensive knowledge of human psychology.


Even funnier is this fact that you're claiming it to be Science and praising its language and structure, while you cannot even understand it. Can you understand Quranic Arab with its true essence? Do you know that Quranic Arabic is different from contemporary Arabic?

You're exalting a book you couldn't even understand.

Who told you, by the way, that Quran is very eloquent? You've heard it? Right?
Great! Indeed are you a man of reason.



Referencing system and chain of narrators.. Is it Science too? Referencing is Science? Since when?


History and Hermeneutics of Quran? History, I assure you, i know as far as it can be known. Hermeneutics is a fallacy. I'm neither interested in it nor do i attach any value to this "branch of knowledge".
Will you start doubting Quran if the study of Hermeneutics of Quran end up in establishing that Quran is not consistent and coherent? If not, then what the point in referring to it?

Early Muslims who understood that time, its exigencies, and the true language has explained every verse of Quran. Read Ibn Abbas.


Lets not forget that "Hermeneutics of Quran" is the reason theres countless sects and Islam has gone through a divide.

Does it please you to coin big terms and write heavy words for the sake of writing, Without understanding what you actually are saying?


What I know about Metaphysics and Cosmology? I know nothing. I'm a student, trying to learn. What I know makes no question. What Quran knows makes a question.

So please fill me in with " The Theories of Quran". What "Topics" Quran has DISCUSSED? Be specific and bring forth a "Topic of Quran" and I'll let you know what i know.

Quran.. A book of stories and sometimes contradictory texts.



Understanding of Religon is largely associated with the disposition you've got as a man.
A man who's extreme in his behaviour, who's mentally unstable, who's got a limited understanding of the world around him, who's got vested interests served in the practice of religion, who's got a great imagination about hell and heaven, who's weak, who's vulnerable, who lacks brains, who's lost grip on reality, who's walled himself off, who's shut his eyes from the World, who cannot resist propaganda, who cannot tell things apart, who's bound by social exigencies to stick to the religion, or the one who isnt really bothered whether there is a religion or not........ practice religion.

With this convoluted and incoherent reply of yours, I rest my case on this thread on the glaring and conspicuous aspect of your deep rooted ignorance. Rest of your arguments related with Iqbal were fascinating though and I have to appreciate your effort which you have put to deal with complex topics here.

Though your understanding of these matters still require more in depth studies, proper consultations and mentoring from the experts of the subjects and erudite application of your analytical mind. See you in next thread and would love to lock horns with you till the next time.
 

Mughal1

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dear Mughal1,

Its a great coincidence that I'm also Mughal by caste.

Some of your points are absolutely on spot. I dont disagree with you on those points.

So far any philosophers or scientists I came across their thinking seemed to me heavily affected by their religious up bringing.

This is absolutely right but story goes beyond it. I try to summarize it in this simple equation:

A Man = Schooling + Childhood + Friends + Family + Society + Higher Education + Natural Intelligence + Aptitude

In this equation first four factors shape up our religious thoughts. Philosophers are no exception. Factor of society, specially in form of Media, determine the intensity of our behavior. How radicalized or tolerant we are.
But Higher Education and Natural Intelligence are the real factors that make a difference. Education and Natural Intelligence helps us snub the biases that Society and Religion have inculcated in us. At this level, you cannot the blame Philosophers for being "heavily" affected by their Religions and Background. Of course, though, Philosophers are no Utopians. They're only human beings. But we know that their prime stimuli are Reason and Logic and not Religion or other forms of "deity".

I'd like to strongly disagree with you on the point that Mullah has misunderstood Religion. NO, they havnt. They adhere to the basic teachings of their Religions. They uphold the convention. They dont question. They've succumbed to the absoluteness of the religion. They've murdered their conscience. They've submitted.

Then there's people like you who just cannot succumb, submit, or who have a more powerful conscience. You dont wanna shut your eyes from the injustices and miseries inflected upon Humanity by Religions.
On this point you feel helpless, shocked. You cannot beieve that a religion with whom you had had a great romance, says all these "inhuman" things. Orders killings. You dont wanna believe that what you've read about the Early Folks of a Religion is actually true but it hurts your conscience. Your romance. Your ego.

Like few days ago I wrote about Bilal bin Rabah killed his former boss for personal vendetta, when the Boss was unarmed, had surrendered, dint even fight, was taken prisoner by another Sahabi. I wrote it with references. Ibn Ishaq. Sahih Bukhari.

BUT... Instead of appreciating me for bringing forth a forgotten Truth, I was told to shut up. WHY?

Because that event hurt these people's romance with Bilal. They couldnt believe he had actually murdered someone in that state. They were shocked.

This contradiction in perceived truth about Bilal and real truth about Bilal led people to "make up" different excuses to justify his act. You can read those excuses in my thread.

This example can very well be generalized. When people come to know of things done by the Religious Figure they followed or had a romance with, they tend to come up with excuses, justifications, reasons, and whatever they can come up with to cling to the same portrait of the person they'd been worshiping since childhood. They dont want the image of the person shatter. They dont wanna let go something they'd been cherishing whole their life, no matter how big a fallacy that something is.

Mullah follows the real Islam. PEOPLE DONT. People wanna keep their conscience clear and in order to do so, they generally come up with this excuse "O' its Mullah who's at fault. Its not Islam"
"O' yea its Mullah who's ruined our Religion"
"Damn this Mullah. He knows nothing about Islam"


NO. Mullah knows. You dont. You just dont wanna accept the reality. I have read Islam. And i dont see any major contradiction between Real Islam and Mulla's Islam. But i see a great of contradiction between Perception of Islam and Real Islam.

Take for example the case of Qadri
Qadri killed Salman. He dint kill him for personal gain. Qadri's motivation was purely religious. Countless people condemned Qadri and claimed that Islam does not grant the right to kill fellow human beings on the charges of Blasphemy. You know what, they are wrong.

Umar had killed a man because he dint trust Prophet's judgement and Umar thought it was Blasphemy. Prophet SAW dint not hold Umar accountable for that murder as He SAW dint not hold Bilal accountable for his murder. Silence of Prophet SAW is considered a sign of Approval.
How was Qadri wrong, in this context?

But of course it was an act of cold blooded planned murder. People who had a clear conscience, cried out. At the same time they felt themselves stuck in a dilemma.

On one hand they just couldnt digest this murder and on the other hand they dint wanna refute Islam either.. SO what to do?

They chose to do what they often do. They blamed Mullah for all this. They simply refuted the fact that Islam grants the permission to kill fellow human beings for Blasphemy charges.

"سانپ بھی مر جائے' لاٹھی بھی نہ ٹوٹے"

Islam is against idolatry. But trust me Muslims are the biggest Idolaters in the World. They've made idols of every single person attached to Islam and then they keep worshiping them. If somebody wanna come forward and breaks those idols with the axe of reality and facts, People run to kill that person.

Its not Mullah who has misunderstood Islam. Its people who dont wanna their conscience clear and hence refuse to accept that Islam is actually up to all that.

dear username, till you go through what I have explained in a bit of detail you cannot have grasp of things about the quran and deen of islam. I do not doubt that you have studied what you call the quran and deen of islam but there is quite a bit of difference between my understanding of what I call the quran and deen of islam and what you call the quran and deen of islam.

The quran cannot be understood at all unless we human beings understand origin and development of human language. The reason is before we could argue about things we need to know the origin of words and meanings of words. People whom we call scientists and philosopher have not been able to explain this mechanism in detail so far. If you are aware of this fact then you can claim to to know the quran not otherwise.

You claim mullahs truly know the quran and I am of the view that they do not know the quran. It is because mullahs have no idea how human language came about and developed. Since mullahs have not carried out any research work on this very basic thing therefore whatever nonsense they say about the quran is expression of their ignorance about the quran and deen of islam. It is for this reason any philosopher or scientist who claims he knows anything about the quran or deen of islam is talking nonsense if his conclusion is also based upon what mullahs say. One has to be familiar with things related to the quran and deen of islam before one's criticism could be accepted valid.

This is why I question your understanding of the quran and deen of islam as well. This is why I suggest you first read what I have explained and then you are welcome to criticise the quran and deen of islam. This does not mean I am right about each and everything I say about the quran and deen of islam but I want to be proven wrong as regarding the way I suggest the quran and deen of islam are to be understood. This is why you must visit HERE, HERE and HERE if we are to discuss things in detail. You will see that I have raised and answered a lot more fundamental questions about the quran and deen of islam than anyone else you may have come across. There is no point for me to keep repeating same things for each and every person this is why I suggest you read through the threads I suggested.

regards and all the best.