اقبال اور جمہوریت

[Ali raza babar]

تلاش جاری رکھیں کبھی نا کبھی کچھ اور بھی مل ہی جائے گا

مکتب و ملا و اسرار کتاب
کور مدار زاد و نور آفتاب


مدرسے و ملا کا قرآن سے وہی واسطہ ہے جو مادر زاد اندھے کو کا سورج سے

 

[Username]

It is not iqbal who was confused the whole human world is confused that is why we human beings are in a situation that we are. I am not against criticism of anyone or anything but those who wish to do so must try to reach a level of understanding needed for criticism of a person or an ideology.

NO human being is born with knowing all rather people start learning things after birth and carry on till their deaths. Iqbal was not any different in this respect but he reached far beyond anyone of his time from his place of birth. This in itself was a great achievement. It is not sensible thing to do to quote iqbal from different stages of his life in order to show contradictions in his ideas. Regardless he reached a conclusion that is solid as a rock and none is born yet to prove him wrong. He said islam is a deen and not a mazhab. Deen of islam is the best way of life possible for mankind and none is born yet to prove otherwise.

For getting hang of what the actual message of the quran is and what actual deen of islam is see HERE, HERE and HERE.

You're a funny guy bro.
If Islam is the way for Humanity then Humanity is doomed.

 

[atensari]

مکتب و ملا و اسرار کتاب
کور مدار زاد و نور آفتاب

مدرسے و ملا کا قرآن سے وہی واسطہ ہے جو مادر زاد اندھے کو کا سورج سے

لیکن یہ سب کچھ لادنیت اور جمہوریت کی محبت میں نہیں کہا گیا

 

[Khair Andesh]

محترم یوزر نیم ، آپ کافی ترقی کر رہے ہو۔
دین و مذہب تو پہلے بھی نشانہ بنتا ہی رہتا تھا، مگر دوسرے لبرلروں کی طرح بندوق مولوی کے کندھے پر رکھ کر چلائی جاتی تھی۔
اب آپ نے براہ راست قومی ہیروز، اور مقدس ہستیوں کو نشانہ بنانہ شروع کر دیا ہے۔ بلکہ شاید پچھلا بین بھی آپ کا کسی ایسے ہی جملے پر تھا۔
لہذا اپ سے گزارش ہے کہ یا تو پچھلی والی روش پر واپس آ جائیں، (مولویوں کا سینہ بہت کشادہ ہے، آپ سمیت سب کی تنقید برداشت کرتے رہے ہیں،)یا دوسری صورت میں خاموش رہیں، اگر کسی مقدس ہستی کے بارے میں آپ کے خیالات مسلمانوں سے مختلف ہیں، تو کوئی آپ کو اپنے خیالات بدلنے پر مجبور نہیں کر رہا، مگر یہ "سلمان رشدی" بننے کی کوشش ترک کر دیں۔

 

[Ali raza babar]

لیکن یہ سب کچھ لادنیت اور جمہوریت کی محبت میں نہیں کہا گیا

Sawal gandum Jawab Chana .

Mein nay kab kaha yeh sab La Diniat ki mohabat mein ya Jamhooriat ki Mohabbat mein kaha gya .

Jamhooriat per IQbal ki baat maantay ho ,

Yeh Mulla ism per Tum log kiun Bhagtay ho ?

 

[Username]

The Return of Jinnah – 1934

By Amaar Ahmad:The history behind Jinnah’s return to Indian politics in 1934 makes for an inconvenient truth. The man whose eloquent persuasion left Jinnah no escape in returning to politics, has been forgotten in the annals of official Pakistani history. That man was not Liaqat Ali Khan and certainly not Dr. Muhammad Iqbal but Abdur Rahim Dard – an Ahmadi missionary in London.After the Round Table Conference of 1932, Muhammad Ali Jinnah had been disillusioned about Indian politics. The major reasons for this were both the hardline Hindu “attitude” and Muslims who were either “flunkeys” of the British or “campfollowers” of the Congress who impeded national unity [1, pg. 94]. After feeling “utterly helpless” he decided to quit Indian politics for good. Taking up residence at Hampstead, he began the practice of law in the more congenial British settings. Known for remaining firm in his decisions, Jinnah’s exit seemed to have have been irrevocable and final.
A. R. Dard met Jinnah in March 1933 and tried to convince him that the Indian Muslims were bereft of good leadership and desperately needed a sincere politician like him. Such was the force of Dard’s advocacy that Jinnah relented. To symbolize his return to politics, Dard arranged for a lecture on the future of India at the Mosque in Putney London in April 1933. Jinnah spoke of how “the eloquent persuasion of the Imam left me no way of escape”. Presided over by Sir Nairne Sandeman, Jinnah’s address criticized the recent White Paper on Indian Constitutional Reform and argued for self-government by Indians [2][3][4][7, pg. 203].Surprisingly, Jinnah biographers, such as Stanley Wolpert, Hector Bolitho and Jaswant Singh, have not mentioned Dard in their works. Jaswant Singh mentions Jinnah’s lecture on Indian Constitutional Reform in [7, pg 203] but he makes no reference to the latter even though the event was entirely Dard’s initiative. Instead, Wolpert and Bolitho credit Liaqat Ali Khan for the change of heart in Jinnah in returning to India. For example, Wolpert describes the meeting between Liaqat Ali Khan and his wife Begum Ranaa in the summer of 1933 [5, pg. 133]. According to Wolpert, Begum Ranaa’s passionate appeals and Liaqat Ali Khan’s “imprecations, offers of assistance and flattery” became the factor in Jinnah’s decision. Bolitho says that Jinnah asked Liaqat Ali Khan to “survey” the feelings in India and if the environment was conducive enough, he would decide to come back. Begum Ranaa confided to Bolitho that Liaqat Ali Khan then “amassed his evidence” and finally asked Jinnah to “come” [1, pg. 98-99].At any rate, in all recorded history, Dr. Muhammad Iqbal has not been mentioned even once in debating Jinnah in person about his future plans. It cannot be proved that Iqbal corresponded with Jinnah on the issue either. On the other hand, Liaqat Ali Khan seems to have facilitated the logistics of Jinnah’s return. He and Begum Ranaa met Jinnah in July 1933 and extended an invitation which can indeed be seen in the context of laying groundwork for his eventual arrival. However, Liaqat Ali Khan’s efforts – vital as they were – are only subsequent to Dard’s meeting with Jinnah (in March 1933) and Jinnah’s consequent address on India’s future (in April).In any case, in Jinnah’s own words, it was not Iqbal or Liaqat Ali Khan but A. R. Dard whose “eloquent persuasion” left Jinnah with “no way of escape.” Dard describes that the most powerful argument which he used in his long discussions with Jinnah was that Jinnah’s abandonment of politics at that juncture would make him a “traitor” for the Muslim cause [6, pg. 103][8]. Interestingly, Jinnah displayed sensitivity on the issue of loyalty even in his early life. In fact, after his legal education completed in London (circa 1896), Jinnah had resolved to be a stage actor. His father angered by this wrote a scathing letter telling him “do not be a traitor to the family” [5, pg. 14]. Jinnah’s resolve melted immediately and he proceeded to India. Perhaps hidden by Jinnah’s stoic and firm decision-making was intense loyalty to his homeland that was laid bare through Dard’s probing.Equally interesting is the fact that A. R. Dard had been deputed as the Ahmadiyya Missionary in London only weeks earlier [6, pg. 103]. Dard narrates that he had received advice from the Head of the Ahmadiyya Community, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, to meet and convince Mr. Jinnah to return to India [8][6, pg. 103]. Therefore, the Ahmadiyya Community’s spiritual leader must duly be credited for recognizing the importance of Mr. Jinnah in serving the political cause of the Indian Muslim minority and also for using his influence to bring Jinnah back to India. The rest, as they say is history.Unfortunately, just as have other historical facts of Pakistan’s creation have been ruthlessly brushed aside, this part of our history too, has been officially ignored for political expedience. Hiding inconvenient truths such as these have only reinforced the public trend to deny facts even in the face of stark reality, to make heroes into villains and villains into heroes. The outcome of falsifying realities is that today the Pakistani state is unwilling to respond to threats to its own existence and to bitter facts on the ground. The earlier this mindset changes the better. Otherwise, to imagine that Pakistan can continue to live in its present state of denial and yet return to Jinnah’s vision will be to live in a fool’s paradise.

Very interesting!

Your facts cannot be, however, cross verified. Accuracy and validity of these claims will always be questioned.

Nonetheless, role of Dard don't make a twist. Dard may very well be another character persuading Jinnah to get back to India but it does not refute the fact that Iqbal had also played a major role in bringing Jinnah back. We've got documantry evidence on that.

What actually makes Iqbal a very strange person and questions his role in the idea of creation of Pakistan, is his letter that he wrote to his German teacher stating that he'd never proposed a separate country for Muslims of India.

Role of Ahmadis in the creation of Pakistan is also a matter of intense debate.

It's hilarious though that a man who aspired to play the role of Romeo in one of Shakespeare's dramas actually created World sixth largest country.

Jinnah's one mistake that keeps huanting his character, and I'd call it a stigma to his awesome personality, was to represent Ilm Deen in the famous blasphemy murder case. A man of his stature and wisdom actually took up that case, leaves me wondering....
He was persuaded by Iqbal to represent Ilm Deen at the upper court. That shows how greatly Jinnah regarded Iqbal or How greatly Iqbal influenced Jinnah.

 

[atensari]

Sawal gandum Jawab Chana .

Mein nay kab kaha yeh sab La Diniat ki mohabat mein ya Jamhooriat ki Mohabbat mein kaha gya .

Jamhooriat per IQbal ki baat maantay ho ,

Yeh Mulla ism per Tum log kiun Bhagtay ho ?

بہت اچھا طریقہ واردات ہے جو مذہب کی بات کرے اقبال کے شعر نقل کرو اور اسے ملا مدرسہ بنا دو

 

[stranger]

تلاش جاری رکھیں کبھی نا کبھی کچھ اور بھی مل ہی جائے گا

 

[Username]

Hahaha

This one picture expresses more than my whole text.

 

[Khair Andesh]

Afsos ke aap online mera qatal nahi ker saktay.

Rahi baat 24 ghante ke ban ki tow Abdul Rehman naami online Mullah jo itfaaqan Mod bhi hain, aap hi ki qabeel hain Tolerance se leker Zehni Qabliat tak her cheeze ki kami.

Aap jaisay log jis shakal mein bhi hon dosron ke liye basis takleef hote hain. Zehni Kajravi, kamtar shaur, Ilmi bad- diyanti, jhoot, propaganda, tashdud, violence, dhamkiyan, kam- aqli, aur kam tareen darjay ki insaniyat..... Yeh aap ke trademarks hain.

Abdul Rehman koi talbaani Mod ho ya Khair Andesh naami koi online extremist... Ham in baaton se bay-niyaz hain.

مجھے آپ کی اس پوسٹ پر کوئی اعتراض نہیں، بلکہ میں تو یہی کہنا چاہ رہا ہوں کہ آپ اپنی توپ کا رخ "خیر اندیش" یا "عبدالرحمن" تک ہی محدود رکھیں۔اس سے آگے جانے کی ضرورت نہیں ہے۔
دین کو ہی بدنام کرنا مقصد ہے، تو وہ مولوی کو برا بھلا کہہ کر بھی پورا ہو جاتا ہے۔

 

[Bret Hawk]

Few facts are needed to be refreshed before giving importance to the piece of trash of this thread;

It was Ibn Bajja (d.1138 CE) not Friedrich Nietzsche, who was the precursor of the concept of a Superior Man therefore the concept of Ubermensch is not unique to Nietzsche alone.

The phrase God is Dead was used in a dialogue of Nietzsches 1883 book Thus Spoke Zarathustra and was not compiled in a book form as implied by the eunuch thread starter.

Democracy was never fancied by the likes of Socrates (d.399 BC), Plato (d.348 BC), Friedrich Nietzsche (d.1900 CE), Martin Heidegger (d.1976 CE), Oswald Spengler (d.1936 CE) therefore if Dr. Iqbal was cynical of its Western mould then it doesnt mean that he had challenged the universal law of science in his time.

Democracy is a system which was designed to combat the encroaching and militant nature of Monarchy and Aristocracy primarily speaking and has itself become a handmaid of the exploitative Bourgeoisie class of the states where it is religiously followed.

 

[Username]

مجھے آپ کی اس پوسٹ پر کوئی اعتراض نہیں، بلکہ میں تو یہی کہنا چاہ رہا ہوں کہ آپ اپنی توپ کا رخ "خیر اندیش" یا "عبدالرحمن" تک ہی محدود رکھیں۔اس سے آگے جانے کی ضرورت نہیں ہے۔
دین کو ہی بدنام کرنا مقصد ہے، تو وہ مولوی کو برا بھلا کہہ کر بھی پورا ہو جاتا ہے۔

Hosla rakhein. Daleel ka jawab daleel hota hai. Gaali, dhamki, ya ban nahi

 

[Khair Andesh]

Hosla rakhein. Daleel ka jawab daleel hota hai. Gaali, dhamki, ya ban nahi

صبر کا دامن تو آپ چھوڑ رہے ہو، جو مولوی سے ڈائریکٹ دین پر انگلیاں اٹھا رہے ہو۔
اور دوسرے لبرل فاشسٹوں کے لئے بھی مشکلات پیدا کر رہے ہو، جو یہ ثابت کرنے کے لئے ایڑی چوٹی کا زور لگاتے رہتے ہیں کہ لبرلزم اور دین بے زاری اور ملحدانہ نظریات آپس میں مترادف نہیں ہیں۔

 

[LeezaKhan]

From your post, it seems that Islam is so fragile and brittle that any Tom, **** or Harry would break it. Relax... it's not the case.

Iqbal was not a prophet, just a poet whose status is over exaggerated out of proportion. There does exist substantial evidence to support the assertion that Iqbal got the idea of "khudi" from Nietzsche and he had not enough intellectual honesty to cite his work.

صبر کا دامن تو آپ چھوڑ رہے ہو، جو مولوی سے ڈائریکٹ دین پر انگلیاں اٹھا رہے ہو۔
اور دوسرے لبرل فاشسٹوں کے لئے بھی مشکلات پیدا کر رہے ہو، جو یہ ثابت کرنے کے لئے ایڑی چوٹی کا زور لگاتے رہتے ہیں کہ لبرلزم اور دین بے زاری اور ملحدانہ نظریات آپس میں مترادف نہیں ہیں۔

 

[Ali raza babar]

بہت اچھا طریقہ واردات ہے جو مذہب کی بات کرے اقبال کے شعر نقل کرو اور اسے ملا مدرسہ بنا دو

tum mazhab ki nahi mullaiat ki baat kertay ho.
Yeh munaaafiqana rawaya hay.
Tum defend kertay ho mehrab o mimber kay aisay sartaan ko jo is Jasd e Wahid ko kha gya

 

[Khair Andesh]

From your post, it seems that Islam is so fragile and brittle that any Tom, **** or Harry would break it. Relax... it's not the case.

Iqbal was not a prophet, just a poet whose status is over exaggerated out of proportion. There does exist substantial evidence to support the assertion that Iqbal got the idea of "khudi" from Nietzsche and he had not enough intellectual honesty to cite his work.

بات صرف اقبال رحمتہ اللہ علیہ کی نہیں ہے۔
یہ محترم یا محترمہ صحابہ کے بارے میں بھی کلام کر چکے ہیں،، اور کچھ دن پہلے اپنی اسی آزاد خیالی کی وجہ سے جیل بھی جا چکے ہیں۔
آپ کی بات ٹھیک ہے کہ اسلام کوئی شاخ نازک پر بنا آشیانہ نہیں، مگر کسی چیز کے مضبوط ہونے کا یہ مطلب بھی نہیں کہ پھر جو جی میں آئے اس کو تاک کر دے مارو۔

 

[Night_Hawk]

 

[atensari]

اس نظم کی تعریف سیکولر لبروں سے زیادہ کون کر سکتا ہے

 

[LeezaKhan]

Let me re-phrase his statement.... All Abrahamic religions as well Hinduism, Zoroastrian, Buddhism and many others were true ways to humanity because not only they came from one source but also convey same message.

Humanity is doomed not because the religions were practiced but because religion were not practiced in their rue essence.

You're a funny guy bro.
If Islam is the way for Humanity then Humanity is doomed.

 

[atensari]

tum mazhab ki nahi mullaiat ki baat kertay ho.
Yeh munaaafiqana rawaya hay.
Tum defend kertay ho mehrab o mimber kay aisay sartaan ko jo is Jasd e Wahid ko kha gya

محراب و منبر کے دشمن تم صرف باتیں ہی بنا سکتے ہو لیکن کچھ کرنا دور کی بات منہ بھی نہیں کھولتے اسلام کے لئے. ہاں جو اسلام کی بات کرے اسے ملا بنا دو

ریاست نے اسلام باہر نکال پھینکا ہے تمھارے جیسے محراب و منبر کے پیچھے پڑے ہیں تاکے نماز روزہ جائے. منافقت چھوڑ لبیک یا سیکولر آزم کی تصویر لگاؤ