Sikhs, Christians and Hindus ok, but not Qadyanis?

bhitai

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
I see a lot of folks over-reacting to my posts here. So i want to answer all of them in one posting.


First off, I want to compare how we perceive various minorities within pakistan. Let's go over the 3 main groups:
a) Sikhs
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We all know that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. It's also true that Muslims were also the first victims of atrocities by non-muslims (ok, it was mutual but I am trying to make a point here).
Can anyone here provide me a figure of how many muslims were killed by the sikhs?

The truth is, Master Tara Singh whos hands were stained with muslim blood was LATER INVITED to visit Pakistan, and he did so, meeting with govt. officials, dignitaries and what not.

So it's OK if Sikhs killed muslims, WE DO NOT HOLD ANY GRUDGES AGAINST THEM, AND WE DO NOT ADVOCATE killing all sikhs who live in/visit Pakistan! RIGHT???????


b) Hindus
==========
In general Pakistanis have a very unfavorable view of Hindus. We view the indian hindus as always conspiring to break pakistan and to merge it back into their Akhand bharat. Yet, when we see the likes of Anil Dilpat and his cousin Danesh Kaneria playing for pakistan, we cheer them just the way we would any muslim players.. CAN ANY SANE PAKISTANI ADVOCATE THE KILLING OF ALL PAKISTANI HINDUS - BASED ON OUR SORDID PAST ?

So.....Hindus caused the break-up of Pakistan, arguably resulting in the loss of countless lives. Yet we will never advocate killing of a single hindu, let alone all of them???


c) Christians
=============
Don't we remember how we felt when GW Bush used the word 'crusade' to start his anti-terrorist (anti-muslim) campaign in far-away lands. So far this 'crusade' has resulted in the deaths of about a million iraqis and hundreds of thousands of Afghans.

Now how do you patriotic pakistanis feel about Christians living in Pakistan? eliminate/expel them all to cleanse our PURE Pakistan?


So here's my new set of questions:

1- When you read the history of 1947 riots, do you have the urge to kill the next sikh you see roaming about?

2- when you read about the events of gujarat, or BJP leaders anti-muslim politics, or any military developments in india (considered a hindu power by many here) - don't you feel you need to send all the hindus back to india?

3- Finally, when you read about how evangelical christians want to defeat the islamic world, allied with their zionist friends, don't you feel a nagging suspicion about every Pakistani christian being a foreign agent???

Let's hear your answers here. I am positive you will vehemently say NO to all these questions. you will say 'NO' - we embrace any peaceful christian, hindus, or sikhs living here and consider them our pakistani brothers.

Now anybody here, please tell me, how DIFFERENT IS QADYANIAT from SIKHISM???

IF WE CAN EMBRACE SIKHS, WHY NOT QADYANIS?

I don't have anything against sikhs, christians or hindus, just like I don't consider qadyanis any less worthy of living in pakistan than anybody else. But if we are talking theology, I have some read some confessions of a FORMER SIKH where he details how sikhs STILL have a deep hatred for muslims! (I STILL don't hold any grudges against any group - I repeat!)
 

sarbakaf

Siasat.pk - Blogger
Bhitai
do sikhs say their guru was a true prophet and Mohammed pbuh was last but not the last prophet?
do hindus make any such claim.......
but mirzaiz make that claim that their mirza saab was a prophet and was mirror image of MOhammad pbuh.


Remember why iqbal kept himself aside from mirzai activities under kashmir commettee?
why were pakistani embassies used to preach qadyaniism?
Why did zafar ali khan (first F.Minister of pak) refused to pray jinaza of quaid e azam?
why did dr Salam stabbed our nuclear prog by giving blueprints to americans?
Why do mirzais have to prove that every one else except them is kafir?
Why do they call muslim SONS OF KHANZIRS ( literally these are words of ghulam ahmed qadyani)


so my mate....

qadyanis are not like sikh or hindu ....qadyanis are back stabbers and kafirs calling themself muslim
 

bhitai

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
So you think somehow Sikhs are ahlul-kitaab or something?

And if you think somehow sikhs are pro-islam, THINK AGAIN. They have a built-in hatred for islam in their theology. I am waiting for a few more queries to post some evidence in this regard!

let me be clear : I'm not advocating violence or hatred against sikhs here, but please guys, DON'T PRETEND you don't know the truth. Sikhs killed countless muslims and Yet we embrace them! They still harbor a deep-seated hatred for muslims, yet we consider them our compatriots , even future partners.... Our behavior is in-line with Quaid-e-Azam's vision, where any non-muslim minority is considered welcome in pakistan.

IFF We consider qadyanis as kaffirs and NOT munafiqs (fifth colum against islamic state, as per sharia), then we have GOT TO treat them the way we treat sikhs and hindus!
 

sarbakaf

Siasat.pk - Blogger
bhatti...

SIkhs hindud christians ....all are non muslim...none of them believe in quran or sunnah and in prophethood fo Mohammad PBUH.....
No one calls them muslim and they dont call themselve muslim either.

But mirzais from their actions try to prove tht prophet Mohammad PBUH did not deliver complete religion that why we need PAGAL ghulam ahmed mirzai.

They call themselve muslim ...while they are worst kafirs in the world.


now regarding killings of muslim by sikhs.....

so mr bhatti.........go and read history.......and tell me what did shah jehan , and aurangzeb did with sikhs ..how many of them were killed including their gurus

secondly at time of partition .........dont forget thousands of sikh and hindus were killed by muslim too ....lahore and pindi are prime examples....

slaughter at time of partition was unavoidable for both parties........

coming back to issue of qadyanis...

well they are minorities just like sikhs, hindus , etc in pakistan
they have right of minorities...........
but we see that most of them are not even loyal to pakistan........mirza tahir khabees....mirza masroor , and dont u forget what happened in rabwa in 1970s.

these mirzais are meer jafars and meer sadiqs of today .....

and to put an end to all this discussion.........

what happened to masjid e zarar in madina?.......same applies to mirzais and they deserve same treatment.....
they conspire against islam and pakistan............even jewish pm attends their iftar dinners........lol....

so lala geeeee.....mirzais deserve one thing........thats called...............MARD E MOMIN KA AAHNI BAZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 

bhitai

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
SIkhs hindud christians ....all are non muslim...none of them believe in quran or sunnah and in prophethood fo Mohammad PBUH.....
No one calls them muslim and they dont call themselve muslim either.

But mirzais from their actions try to prove tht prophet Mohammad PBUH did not deliver complete religion that why we need PAGAL ghulam ahmed mirzai.

They call themselve muslim ...while they are worst kafirs in the world.

Qadyanis are non-muslims at par with sikhs hindus and christians.

As for their beliefs, only a retard in this day and age will fall for it. Thus why do we have to feel so insecure about them?

so mr bhatti.........go and read history.......and tell me what did shah jehan , and aurangzeb did with sikhs ..how many of them were killed including their gurus

secondly at time of partition .........dont forget thousands of sikh and hindus were killed by muslim too ....lahore and pindi are prime examples....

slaughter at time of partition was unavoidable for both parties........

So sarbakaf, WHY do you want to REPEAT the mistake of Aurgenzeb?
He killed guru Gobind singh, and introduced a deep-seated hatred in the hearts of Sikhs against muslims.

Did Aurengzeb's 'AHANI HAATH' really eliminate Sikhism?? the last I checked, he could NOT contain it, and sikhs eventually took over Punjab!!!

FORCE alone only HELPS to create victim-mentality. The best way to approach Qadyaniat is with knowledge and nice-manners!!!!


secondly at time of partition .........dont forget thousands of sikh and hindus were killed by muslim too ....lahore and pindi are prime examples....

slaughter at time of partition was unavoidable for both parties........

coming back to issue of qadyanis...
If it is that simple, why there is so much BAD BLOOD b/w Pakistan and India??
Many in Pakistan view hindus with suspicion, and there are hate-mongers in India who play on the masses distrust of Pakistan.

Thus you can't ignore how Hindus are viewed in Pakistan EVEN today, esp in Punjab...so please don't pretend it's all water under the bridge!

these mirzais are meer jafars and meer sadiqs of today .....

and to put an end to all this discussion.........
Meaning they should be hanged from every tree and lamp-post?
Cuz that's the punishment for a traitor!

what happened to masjid e zarar in madina?.......same applies to mirzais and they deserve same treatment.....
they conspire against islam and pakistan............even jewish pm attends their iftar dinners........lol....
If anyone (hindu/christian/sikh/muslim) conspires against Pakistan he should be prosecuted accordingly.

Our courts are FREE now, remember..

Bring the cases of treason against anyone you suspect, and bring forth proof.

May be there are agents within Qadyanis, just like there are agents in NGOs here, just like Blackwater-hired pakistani agents..
Does it mean we view an entire community as a traitor?


so lala geeeee.....mirzais deserve one thing........thats called...............MARD E MOMIN KA AAHNI BAZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
As I said, Aurgengzeb tried that against sikhs, how did that work out?
(before mughal oppression, Sikhs were fairly muslim-friendly, remember)
 

Tanweer.Amjad

Councller (250+ posts)
The only point is that they pretend to be Muslims and never reveal their identity, whereas I know Hindus and Christians do not hide their identity.
Pretending to be Muslims while being Muslims is dangerous. It is similar to thinking of somebody as your friend whereas he is an enemy. Had they had no issues with the true Muslims, they would have been declaring openly that they are non-Muslims. And they have nothing to do with Islam. But they never do and they will never do that. That is why they are ever dangerous.
 

bhitai

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
^ If we let them pray in their places of worship. why would they come and pray with the rest of the muslims (who they consider kafir)?

Do you think the average qadyani is a trained spy? don't you think they got better things to worry about - work, family, power outages , sugar crisis etc. etc.?

And lastly, we cannot pry apart everybody's heart and look for imaan in it. This is NOT our place. Some people come to masjid to pray, some to create mischief. Only our knowledge and good ikhlaq can convince the fitna-creators to change their minds.

And as for qadyanis, I think there's enough material available to convince any average qadyani to change his or her faith, provide the message is delivered in a BEAUTIFUL manner (not with Aahani haath).

If you doubt my statements, just youtube 'Shahid Kamal' a former-qadyani (www.thecult.info) and see for yourself his gentle yet firm delivery of facts. According to Shahid kamal, an average Qadyani is just a misinformed dupe, and can be convinced with reason and politeness!
 

such bolo

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
If we let them pray in their places of worship. why would they come and pray with the rest of the muslims (who they consider kafir)?

who said that they are not allowed to worship? they have their compounds where they freely go and pray....Please correct your knowledge before favouring them...

Do you think the average qadyani is a trained spy? don't you think they got better things to worry about - work, family, power outages , sugar crisis etc. etc.?

The thing is that we should be aware of their enmities towards muslims...We should keep an eye over them... just like in UK and America Muslims are carefully watched ... and just like in Paksitan where some particular groups even muslims are kept under watch... whats wrong in it???

And lastly, we cannot pry apart everybody's heart and look for imaan in it. This is NOT our place. Some people come to masjid to pray, some to create mischief. Only our knowledge and good ikhlaq can convince the fitna-creators to change their minds.

And as for qadyanis, I think there's enough material available to convince any average qadyani to change his or her faith, provide the message is delivered in a BEAUTIFUL manner (not with Aahani haath).

So you beleive that capital punishment for Murtid in Islam is wrong? you mean that a murtid should be preached only and should not be punished??? then why do you have capital punishment for high treason??? anul that punishment!!!!!
Being a Qadyani or to become a Qadyani or to become Hindu, sikh christian etc.,is like hight treason act according to Islam, and Islamic state is bound to act against them as was done at the time of Salaf...

If you doubt my statements, just youtube 'Shahid Kamal' a former-qadyani (http://www.thecult.info) and see for yourself his gentle yet firm delivery of facts. According to Shahid kamal, an average Qadyani is just a misinformed dupe, and can be convinced with reason and politeness


It does not mean that a traitor should be preached only.......its an exception.... if Allah has given someone opportunity to repent he must thank Allah....
 

bhitai

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
who said that they are not allowed to worship? they have their compounds where they freely go and pray....Please correct your knowledge before favouring them...
So we agree in principle we shouldn't be destroying their places of worship (as sarbakaf used the example of Masjid-e-Zarrar), and letting them freely practice their faith, without *any* interference/harassment!!!

The thing is that we should be aware of their enmities towards muslims...We should keep an eye over them... just like in UK and America Muslims are carefully watched ... and just like in Paksitan where some particular groups even muslims are kept under watch... whats wrong in it???
Wow are you serious? Any muslim who has been wrongly profiled at an airport (myself included) absolutely HATES that system. I don't want ANYONE's eyes on me, period! why the hell should a peaceful citizen come under suspicion in the first place.

with your statements , you just endorsed G W Bush's oppressive policies. Talk about losing perspective!

So you beleive that capital punishment for Murtid in Islam is wrong? you mean that a murtid should be preached only and should not be punished??? then why do you have capital punishment for high treason??? anul that punishment!!!!!

explain to me how a qadyani born to qadyani is automatically a murtad?
and which court has ever declared them as 'murtads' ??

ok so mirza was a british agent. Does it mean all of his followers are also agents? I don't think so. As I quoted Shahid Kamal, *most* of these folks are 'nasli' ahamdis, whose parents/grandparents have been duped into following this religion.

Don't you think a better option is to convince them them merge back into mainstream Islam.

Just do a google search on 'Elijah Muhammad' and then 'Waris Deen Muhammad', and you will know what I am talking about.

Elijah Muhammad was a FALSE black Prophet in the US. He led many people astray, and formed the famed 'Nation of Islam'. After he died, his followers were divided into more than one groups, ALMOST ALL OF WHICH HAVE FINALLY MERGED BACK into the mainstream islam. Even Louis Farrakhan prayed with Waris Deen Muhammad in Chicago, a sign he is willing to join the mainstream.


It does not mean that a traitor should be preached only.......its an exception.... if Allah has given someone opportunity to repent he must thank Allah....
You make it sound like being a qadyani is the same as being a traitor to Pakistan. This is INCORRECT.
It surely makes them kaffir, but Kaffirs CAN BE PAKISTANIS JUST LIKE YOU AND ME AND HAVE THE SAME HUMAN RIGHTS!!!
 

such bolo

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
So we agree in principle we shouldn't be destroying their places of worship (as sarbakaf used the example of Masjid-e-Zarrar), and letting them freely practice their faith, without *any* interference/harassment!!!

In a pure muslim state they should not be allowed to build their Ibadatgah... but as far as Paksitan is concerned... they are allowed... thats why I am surprised that what kind of problem they are facing for which Altaf Husein is advocating??? and what kind of problem you have regarding their worship place???

Wow are you serious? Any muslim who has been wrongly profiled at an airport (myself included) absolutely HATES that system. I don't want ANYONE's eyes on me, period! why the hell should a peaceful citizen come under suspicion in the first place.

with your statements , you just endorsed G W Bush's oppressive policies. Talk about losing perspective!

you completely misunderstood....bhai sahib I just gave an example taht every country has the right to keep an eye over their enemies or on people whom they percive enemy, it is another thing that they are right or wrong... It is quite clear that America assumes muslims as potential enemey thats why he keeps an eye over them... of course we as muslim condemn it but for America it is ok...Like wise it is our right to be aware of our enemies.. whether they are Qadyans, Americans, Indians or of any other religion....so whats wrong in it???

You said: why a peaceful citizen come under suspicion in the first place....bhai sahib for muslims Qadyanis are their enemies...they have hate for us... they are eager to make our muslim brothers Qadyani and they think that we are non muslim and they are just muslim... whereas our constituion calls them as non muslim....

So of course a spy or your enemy would show himself as peaceful person but infact he would not be.....

explain to me how a qadyani born to qadyani is automatically a murtad?
and which court has ever declared them as 'murtads' ??

SubhanAllah so you mean all qadyanis are by birth Qadyani? the most dangerous thing is that they call themselvs Muslim and then propagate their filth....How can they be considered as equal to as other non muslims?? never... they are more dangerous then others....

Court of Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) has declared them kafir and Murtad....

ok so mirza was a british agent. Does it mean all of his followers are also agents? I don't think so. As I quoted Shahid Kamal, *most* of these folks are 'nasli' ahamdis, whose parents/grandparents have been duped into following this religion.

bhai sahib the strongest point is that they call themselves as Muslim whereas they are not....now they are nasli or asli...by birth or after birth....through parents or grandparents... it doesnot make them innocent...An indian pretend to be a Pakistani is more dangerous then an indian calling himself indian...

Don't you think a better option is to convince them them merge back into mainstream Islam.

Who has denied to convince them if they listen and accept... but as far as their being kafir is concerned... it is well established... and they should be treated as minorities as well as enemies of Islam. So keep an eye on them.

Elijah Muhammad was a FALSE black Prophet in the US. He led many people astray, and formed the famed 'Nation of Islam'. After he died, his followers were divided into more than one groups, ALMOST ALL OF WHICH HAVE FINALLY MERGED BACK into the mainstream islam. Even Louis Farrakhan prayed with Waris Deen Muhammad in Chicago, a sign he is willing to join the mainstream.
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As i said earlier if someone joins back Muslims and repent... he is of course welcome...

You make it sound like being a qadyani is the same as being a traitor to Pakistan. This is INCORRECT.
It surely makes them kaffir, but Kaffirs CAN BE PAKISTANIS JUST LIKE YOU AND ME AND HAVE THE SAME HUMAN RIGHTS!!!

You again misunderstood... Qadyanis are traitor to Islam (murtid is like traitor to Islam)... for treason the punishment is death......so if anyone is traitor to Islam,,, Islam has also death penalty for him....therefore, nobody should have objection that this punishment is inhuman.

But again that this punishment can be applied by goverment only... not by individuals.
 

bhitai

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
such bolo

your arguments can be summarized in two points:

1. qadyanis are traitors hence worthy of extermination
2. they don't have a problem living in pakistan, so why even bring up the issue!

even a child can see the contradiction here. First of all, the parliament in 1974 DID NOT declare them as 'murtad', but simply as non-muslims. (Of course, you don't seem to care about this major distinction, cuz you have a different opinion, probably shared by many here). This creates a contradiction for you: On one hand you submit to the writ of the law which doesn't accuse them of treason, and on the other hand you go by your own convictions and consider them traitors/murtads.

Now imagine, if the majority of the people consider qadyanis worthy of extermination, how 'safe' would they feel in pakistan?

I personally feel they are misguided and CAN BE brought back to Haq, ALL of them! My position is inline with the law that grants them full rights to live WITHOUT fear for what they belief. Yes I want to have a constant out-reach to them, and will be happy to see them revert, but I would NOT KILL them or advocate their murder if they didn't listen! the final judgment is with Allah, remember!