Miracles of the Qur'an

[Mughal1]

Okay show me something in quran about embryology that Galen did not already talk about?

Dear vitamin c, as I see it, you are arguing just for sake of argument. Why I think that? Because you are not realising that the way you are looking at the quran is not valid?

Tell me how else should God have proven his existence to human beings other than the way he has according to the quran? What right does anyone have to question the choices of God without first studying God's own point of view about things properly and then coming to that conclusion?

If you are not prepared to answer these like questions to yourself then it only shows you are utterly confused about everything.

You must accept possibility of existence of God because you cannot negate it without a valid or proven reasoning.

However the problem is if you accept possibility of existence of God then you get stuck because then you need to answer the question, how should God get in touch with human beings and tell them things which he needs to tell them about all this that is going on all around us.

This is why idea of existence of God and idea of his revelation to mankind are tightly bound together ie one is useless without the other.

regards and all the best

 

[Wake up Pak]

Human Embryology and the Holy Quran: An Overview.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/

 

[Wake up Pak]

Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur'an

Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C.
The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada.
Address all correspondence to:
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D, F.I.A.C., Professor of Anatomy and Associate Dean Basic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M55 IAB, Canada


Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an. It is only recently that the scientific meaning of some of these verses has been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these verses correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Qur'an is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sorts of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers form the basis of the Hadith literature.

The translations(*) of the verses from the Qur'an which are interpreted in this paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, a Professor of Islamic Studies in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."
This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

Figure 1. Drawing of a sagittal section of a female's abdomen and pelvis showing a fetus in utero. The "veils of darkness" are: (1) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall, and (3) the amniochorionic membrane.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop")."Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

Figure 2. Top, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker. Below, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.

Figure 3. Left, a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh. Right, a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae."Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm."Then We developed out of it another creature."This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers."And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last."Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones."And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl. The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

(*) Even though the translations of the verses of the Qur'an in the above paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, the links to the translations in this page are from Yusuf Ali Qur'an Translation (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/yasurahl.htm) presented by the Alim Online since Sheik Zendani's translation is not available on the internet. (MSA-UTK)

 

[Citizen X]

Australian Govt on Altitude Sickness:
Mountain climbers are at risk of developing altitude sickness (also known as mountain sickness), which may be harmful or even fatal if its onset is ignored. It is caused by gaining altitude too rapidly, which doesn't allow the body enough time to adjust to reduced oxygen and changes in air pressure, and causes hypobaric hypoxia (a lack of oxygen reaching the tissues of the body).

At intermediate altitude (1,500 to 2,500 metres above sea level) altitude illness is unlikely, though possible. Acute altitude sickness arises after at least four hours spent at an altitude above 2,000 m. Ascending to heights greater than 2,500 m can trigger a range of symptoms including headache and vomiting.

Source: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/altitude-sickness

There are over 50 peaks in Saudi Arabia that are over 2500m in height and many others that are over 2000m. Most of them are in the Hejaz region. Many of them are mountain passes which traders like Muhammad would have passed through and which pagan pilgrims would have passed to come to Makkah.

Not even mentioning Mountain passes in Persia which were even higher and there were many Persian travelers and traders that frequented Makkah and Madina and shared their stories.

Altitudes from Saudi geological society.

FUN FACT:
The Otziman's corpse was found at an altitude of 3,210 meters in the Alps. At that altitude he was well aware of shortage of oxygen at high altitudes almost 4000 years before Quran was even written!

Have you even been to 2-3000 meters you have hardly feel anything. Muree is over 2000 meters and everybody is roaming around their normally. As you know 1000s even live there.

And Otzi man died of anything but altitude sickness and how do you know he knew about altitude sickness. There are 1000s of people who live and have lived well above that altitude across the world including the Alps.

And its all woulda coulda shoulda "shared these stories" no definite proof. Or shall we leave your very in depth scientific methodology to "could have"

 

[Citizen X]

Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur'an

Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C.
The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada.
Address all correspondence to:
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D, F.I.A.C., Professor of Anatomy and Associate Dean Basic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M55 IAB, Canada


Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an. It is only recently that the scientific meaning of some of these verses has been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these verses correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Qur'an is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sorts of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers form the basis of the Hadith literature.

The translations(*) of the verses from the Qur'an which are interpreted in this paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, a Professor of Islamic Studies in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."
This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

Figure 1. Drawing of a sagittal section of a female's abdomen and pelvis showing a fetus in utero. The "veils of darkness" are: (1) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall, and (3) the amniochorionic membrane.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop")."Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

Figure 2. Top, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker. Below, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.

Figure 3. Left, a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh. Right, a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae."Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm."Then We developed out of it another creature."This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers."And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last."Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones."And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl. The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

(*) Even though the translations of the verses of the Qur'an in the above paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, the links to the translations in this page are from Yusuf Ali Qur'an Translation (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/yasurahl.htm) presented by the Alim Online since Sheik Zendani's translation is not available on the internet. (MSA-UTK)

Word of advice, no one likes to read long cut and pastes, either put it in your own words and opinions or simply leave a link.

Thanks

 

[Wake up Pak]

Word of advice, no one likes to read long cut and pastes, either put it in your own words and opinions or simply leave a link.

Thanks

Agree!
Too long of an article to put in my own words.
Should have left a link.

 

[Mughal1]

The main problem atheist have with the quran is its interpretation. They want to see an interpretation of the quranic verses that was around in the time of the messenger of God. Any new interpretation of the quran is not acceptable to them.

I realised this point a very long time ago so I got busy with study of origin and development of human language. I explained the idea in my writings. People should read through my provided links to see why scientists are wrong in saying the new quranic interpretation are unacceptable or invalid. This is the argument put forth by vitamin c as well.

Is there any way to overcome his argument? Yes there is.

 

[Citizen X]

The main problem atheist have with the quran is its interpretation. They want to see an interpretation of the quranic verses that was around in the time of the messenger of God. Any new interpretation of the quran is not acceptable to them.

I realised this point a very long time ago so I got busy with study of origin and development of human language. I explained the idea in my writings. People should read through my provided links to see why scientists are wrong in saying the new quranic interpretation are unacceptable or invalid. This is the argument put forth by vitamin c as well.

Is there any way to overcome his argument? Yes there is.

Ghulam Ahmed Parwez saab you came back from the dead? ?

 

[Vitamin_C]

My argument is not that Otziman died of altitude sickness...

My argument is this:

Premise 1: According to the Aus govt in that article at altitudes of 2000-3000m it is possible to have altitude sickness

Premise 1: Aus govt is a credible sourced and is back by best available data we have

Premise 2: There are many places in Arabia and Persia that range in altitudes of 2000-3000m

Premise 3: Many people had traversed those high altitude passes and mountains for thousands of years including traders, pilgrims, soldiers etc(probably even Muhammad himself because he was a trader and war leader), shared their stories in Makkah.

Conclusion 1: It is possible to have known about altitude sickness 1400 years ago due to humans traveling through high altitude for thousands of years. Which means we cannot rule out the possibility that Muhammad learned about altitude sickness through natural means (ie by experiencing it himself or talking to those who have experienced it).

Conclusion 2: If we cannot rule out the possibility of a natural explanation, there is no reason for us to assert a supernatural explanation that Mohammed received that information through Angels and Super beings.

The reason why I mentioned Otziman was that he was at an altitude over 3000m about 5500 years ago, it shows that humans have been traveling through these kinds of altitudes for thousands of years and likely have experienced altitude sickness for thousands of years.

Have you even been to 2-3000 meters you have hardly feel anything. Muree is over 2000 meters and everybody is roaming around their normally. As you know 1000s even live there.

And Otzi man died of anything but altitude sickness and how do you know he knew about altitude sickness. There are 1000s of people who live and have lived well above that altitude across the world including the Alps.

And its all woulda coulda shoulda "shared these stories" no definite proof. Or shall we leave your very in depth scientific methodology to "could have"

 

[Vitamin_C]

Its Muslim's belief that Quran is unchanging word of God. But if you are free to change the interpretation of Quran at will at anytime then you are in essence changing the word of God, which is a major contradiction.

There is also the issue of intellectual dishonest associated with changing interpretations as new scientific discoveries arise for example in the case of big bang theory in the Quran:

Earlier tafsirs from 6th century to 20th century say Earth is an 'Expanse' meaning large

Then in 1922 Alexander Friedmann made a theory of expanding universe which was confirmed observationally by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

Then in 1934 Abdullah Yusuf Ali publishes his new Sahih international translation and changes the word "Expanse" to "Expanding" and people start saying look Quran said 1400 years ago that universe is expanding.

Do you see why there is a problem with changing translations and interpretations of the Quran after scientific discoveries and then claiming that Quran said this 1400 years ago? Its outright fraud and trickery.

The arguments being presented about Qurans stance on Embryology, Shape of Earth and many other "scientific miracles" are based on interpretations and translations that were changed after scientists made those discoveries. (Zakir Naik uses this kind of trickery all the time)

Quran is still in error about embryology btw even after changing the interpretations. No interpretation change can undo the stark resemblance between Greek Embryology and Quranic embryology and the errors in both of them.

The main problem atheist have with the quran is its interpretation. They want to see an interpretation of the quranic verses that was around in the time of the messenger of God. Any new interpretation of the quran is not acceptable to them.

I realised this point a very long time ago so I got busy with study of origin and development of human language. I explained the idea in my writings. People should read through my provided links to see why scientists are wrong in saying the new quranic interpretation are unacceptable or invalid. This is the argument put forth by vitamin c as well.

Is there any way to overcome his argument? Yes there is.

 

[Mughal1]

Let me try and explain this by way of an explanation for understanding of all people regardless atheists or theists.

Quran is a book from God. God knows the end right from the beginning of things. People do not have the ability to see into the future the way God does.

Any message which God reveals to a people will become old for them as soon as it is revealed to them. In other words what we humans call present does not really exist for long. The main thing is either past or future.

Since God reveals his messages to tell people how they should live properly in this world over a set period of time so it has to contain information not only about past but also about future.

Human languages keep on developing as humanity progresses with time. I usually give example of a human baby how he starts with one sound for everything and then starts gradually building his vocabulary upon that ending up with knowing a lots of words and their meanings over a period of his life.

This is why humans need to keep on reinterpreting a book of God according to their time to ensure their proper understanding of it. It is because a lot of things which past people did not know later generations find out for themselves and this helps them to reinterpret book of God closer and closer to what it meant to be.

 

[Mughal1]

Its Muslim's belief that Quran is unchanging word of God. But if you are free to change the interpretation of Quran at will at anytime then you are in essence changing the word of God, which is a major contradiction.

Earlier tafsirs from 6th century to 20th century say Earth is an 'Expanse' meaning large

Then in 1922 Alexander Friedmann made a theory of expanding universe which was confirmed observationally by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

Then in 1934 Abdullah Yusuf Ali publishes his new Sahih international translation and changes the word "Expanse" to "Expanding" and people start saying look Quran said 1400 years ago that universe is expanding.

Do you see why there is a problem with changing translations and interpretations of the Quran after scientific discoveries and then claiming that Quran said this 1400 years ago? Its outright fraud and trickery.

Dear vitamin c, please bear with me before you try to respond. let me explain the point I am trying to explain.

regard and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Also, you cannot ask me to start with an unjustified assumption or conclusion.

My though process always starts from a neutral position and I just follow where the evidence leads me.

Religious people on the other hand start with the conclusion first (ie Jesus is God) and they try to find arguments to fit their conclusion. This is not a way to reach the truth, its a way to rationalize their beliefs, however flawed they may be.

Dear vitamin c, please bear with me before you try to respond. let me explain the point I am trying to explain.

regard and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Can you mark the premises and conclusions in your argument? I do not know which paragraph is a conclusion and which is premise.

Let me try and explain this by way of an explanation for understanding of all people regardless atheists or theists.

Quran is a book from God. God knows the end right from the beginning of things. People do not have the ability to see into the future the way God does.

Any message which God reveals to a people will become old for them as soon as it is revealed to them. In other words what we humans call present does not really exist for long. The main thing is either past or future.

Since God reveals his messages to tell people how they should live properly in this world over a set period of time so it has to contain information not only about past but also about future.

Human languages keep on developing as humanity progresses with time. I usually give example of a human baby how he starts with one sound for everything and then starts gradually building his vocabulary upon that ending up with knowing a lots of words and their meanings over a period of his life.

This is why humans need to keep on reinterpreting a book of God according to their time to ensure their proper understanding of it. It is because a lot of things which past people did not know later generations find out for themselves and this helps them to reinterpret book of God closer and closer to what it meant to be.

 

[Mughal1]

The question is, do we really change the message of God when we reinterpret the message of God? The answer is no, we do not. Why not? Because the human language is such that its word contains an ocean of meanings in them. How do we know that for sure?

We know that for sure because each and every generation of humanity has been expanding the meanings of old or already existing words where they saw the need for doing that as well as they have been inventing new words when the need which arose could not be served by the already existing words and their meanings. This is how human languages have been developing always. For this purpose they used a particular mechanism which works fine even today. The mechanism can be found from within all well detailed dictionaries over the centuries.

This is why by replacing one meaning of a word by another meaning does not change the validity of the original text. All we are doing is superimposing our new understanding of things which we human beings did not know before but which we came to know later on.

This process is like we tell a baby something new which he did not know before, he will try to make sense of it in some way that is exactly what we do with words used by God. This is what any interpretation of words of God is ie just an attempt at its better understanding.

Whether an interpretation of message of God is actually true or right is not decided by the interpretation itself but by the revealed word of God itself. How does the word of God decide that?

Word of God decides it on basis of some rules eg no interpretation of the God sent scripture is valid if it is self contradictory or if it puts scripture of God in conflict with self evident facts or real world realities. It is because God cannot be expected to make any mistakes.

One can say, is this not an attempt at hiding mistakes in the alleged God revealed scripture? No it is not. Why not? Because a real mistake no matter what cannot be hidden this way. One has to lie more and more to hide one lie but in the end one will run out of one's lies.

How does the quran prove its word of God? By telling humanity that which human beings could never know for sure without God telling them. What is that which humanity could never know for sure without telling of God?

 

[Mughal1]

Also, you cannot ask me to start with an unjustified assumption or conclusion.

My though process always starts from a neutral position and I just follow where the evidence leads me.

Religious people on the other hand start with the conclusion first (ie Jesus is God) and they try to find arguments to fit their conclusion. This is not a way to reach the truth, its a way to rationalize their beliefs, however flawed they may be.

Dear vitamin c, are you telling me that, asking question about possibility of God's existence is an unjustified assumption? Can you please explain it a bit more for me.

regards and all the best.

 

[Vitamin_C]

If you are talking to a non Muslim trying to explain your argument and your argument starts with the premise that Quran was written by God. You are already in disagreement and that undermines the whole argument from that start.

You have start on a neutral ground and say; we do not know if Quran has natural or supernatural origins but lets study what the evidence says to reach a rational conclusion.

Dear vitamin c, are you telling me that, asking question about possibility of God's existence is an unjustified assumption? Can you please explain it a bit more for me.

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

If you are talking to a non Muslim trying to explain your argument and your argument starts with the premise that Quran was written by God. You are already in disagreement and that undermines the whole argument from that start.

You have start on a neutral ground and say; we do not know if Quran has natural or supernatural origins but lets study what the evidence says to reach a rational conclusion.

Dear vitamin c, I am not talking about the quran just now that will come later on but about my question to you regarding your stance on possibility of existence of God. We cannot go onto quran before you take a stance either for or against possibility of existence of God. My explanation about the quran is for those who believe in possibility of existence of God not for those who do not till they do.

regards and all the best.

 

[Citizen X]

If we cannot rule out the possibility of a natural explanation, there is no reason for us to assert a supernatural explanation that Mohammed received that information through Angels and Super beings.

And this is where your whole exercise fail, if I cannot prove the information was readily available and Mohammad had access to it doesn't mean divine revelation. I can't prove my POV but I won't believe yours regardless.

Than what is the point of all this when you come in with a "don't bother me with the facts, my mind is already made up" attitude.

 

[Wake up Pak]

Among Galen's major contributions to medicine was his work on the circulatory system. ... Although his anatomical experiments on animal models led him to a more complete understanding of the circulatory system, nervous system, respiratory system, and other structures, his work contained scientific errors

Galen's principal interest was in human anatomy, but Roman law had prohibited the dissection of human cadavers since about 150 BC. Because of this restriction, Galen performed anatomical dissections on living (vivisection) and dead animals, mostly focusing on pigs and primates.