gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
ProudPakistani said:
4- and when you have a stalemate, do what your hearts tells you to do << added
Zaid Hamid's message
- Thread starter wsher
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4- and when you have a stalemate, do what your hearts tells you to do << added
gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
takjhank said:
bhai in tofaani maulvion ko is sey bahas naheen key ummat ka nuqsan hai ya Aqa (s.a.w.) key shan mein gustakhi hai. In maulvion ko sirf apni parvah hai key kaheen Yousuf Ali key qatal mein na pakrey jayen. Is lyey k zahid hamid nay kaha hay yeh jahil darhi waley maulvis are responsible for Yousuf's conviction/murder. Bus yeh maulvis dartey hain apney anjam sey. Lekin Allah ki lathi jub chalegi to yeh sub munafeqeen us mein phansey gey.
Zaid Hamid Zindabad
Pakistan Paindabad
Either people are silly to such an extent or on the other hand their aim is to spread disinformation. There were many predictions Rasool (SAW) made regarding future of Muslim Ummah and Ghazwa e Hind was one of them. Stop this propaganda and better to use your energies over welfare of Pakistan. Why are we against every element who talk a little in the favor of Pakistan. How bad we treat Imran Khan in elections who well are we treating Zaid Hamid.
The nation is going towards decline because we do not recognise Heros among us and serving the wrong people who are good for nothing.
Why we always talk about controversies why cant we talk about doing something?
Why are we so ignorant to discuss and order fatwas about somebody's beliefs while he might be a much better Muslim for Allah, who knows except Allah???????
Lets stop this discussion and lets not confuse and make fun of such sensitive issues of religion.
DO NOT INTERFERE INTO ALLAH'S MATTERS OF FAITH JUDGEMENT.
Appreciate what you listen is good, appreciate if something is done good, and trust on what YOU hear!
May Allah shower His Mersey upon us!
The nation is going towards decline because we do not recognise Heros among us and serving the wrong people who are good for nothing.
Why we always talk about controversies why cant we talk about doing something?
Why are we so ignorant to discuss and order fatwas about somebody's beliefs while he might be a much better Muslim for Allah, who knows except Allah???????
Lets stop this discussion and lets not confuse and make fun of such sensitive issues of religion.
DO NOT INTERFERE INTO ALLAH'S MATTERS OF FAITH JUDGEMENT.
Appreciate what you listen is good, appreciate if something is done good, and trust on what YOU hear!
May Allah shower His Mersey upon us!
gazoomartian said:
Thanx Bro but we will continue to raise our voices to overcome this propaganda. We will continue to unite Muslims. Our Faith had to unite us but these people are dividing us on the name of faith. We will continue our Jehad by writing and spreading awareness among people.
gazoomartian said:
Salam Alaikum,
Please elaborate, what you mean here? Do I "believe" in ahadeeth as what? As revelations from Allah or as books written by historians? I BELIEVE that Einstein wrote his paper on general relativity, and I BELIEVE that Bukhari (for example) wrote the volumes of ahadeeth that he did. As I said before, Ahadeeth are works of historians. Do you disagree with that? Do you consider Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood and other collectors of Ahadeeth as Prophets? If not, who are they, and what should we treat their work as?
wasalam,
Tabrez
gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Tabrez said:
Do YOU believe Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood and other collectors of Ahadeeth as Prophets ?
na'uzobillah. Why would I even think that narrators of Ahadeeth are prophets??
I believe in Muhammad (s.a.w.) as the final nabi/rasul of Allah (swt) and firmly believe in oneness of Allah also. there is no nabi/rasul coming after Muhammad (s.a.w.)
Your question to me in red indicates that either you made an error in phrasing the question you have complete lack of knowledge of what Prophets are and what ahadeeth are. Now seriously, do you know the literal meaning of Ahadeeth. I have replied to your question therefore its only that you reply with answer, not with anoher question....
My question was simply put to you: do you believe in ahadeeth.
By reading your response its apparent that you do not believe in Ahadeeth of Aqa (s.a.w.). Please correct me if I am wrong
respectfully Gazoo
shagi said:
Salam Alaikum,
I think you did not read my message carefully. I never denied the Prophet or his Sunnah. In fact, I stated very clearly that things like salaat come to us from his sunnah. I learned salaat from my parents, who learned it from their parents, who, in turn learned it from their parents.... and so on. Salat comes to us from sunnah, not ahadeeth. Can you honestly say that you learned salaat from reading abook of ahadeeth or did your parents teach it.
There is a difference between sunnah and ahadeeth. The Prophet did NOT leave ANY part of his mission incomplete. As far as the deen is concerned, he made sure that ALL (and not just one or two) of his companions were clearly told and shown. This is Sunnah - matters about Deen that the Prophet showed his companions. The collection of ahadeeth, on the other hand, are statements or actions that were NOT necessarily heard or seen by the majority of his companions. These were statements or actions that one or two of his companions ALLEGEDLY heard or saw. I say "allegedly" because these were statements that were recorded by someone like Bukhari some 200 years after the death of the Prophet. According to Bukhari, he searched through some 600,000 statements that were in circulations around his time - and all these statements were alleged to be from the Prophet. Bukhari, like a good historian, devised a methodology to extract what HIS criterion revealed to him to be historically sound. But this was his criterion - not a revelation from God. After the study, he considered about 4000 (excluding the repetitions) to be historically sound - i.e., that they could have come from the Prophet. He rejected 99.5% of the alleged ahadeeth in circulation in his time as historically unverifiable or unsound. Work continued to be done on these historical document even after Bukhari. His own student Dar al Qutni, later conducted a study and declared about 200 of the ahadith in Bukhari's "sound" collection to be of historically doubtful authenticity.
I do not say that we need to "leave" hadeeth. All I am saying is that we should treat it as a good HISTORICAL document, which should be interpreted in the light of Al-Furqan - The Criterion - the Book of God.
Regarding explanations of the Prophet, it should be very clear that the best tafsir of the Qur'an is the Qur'an itself as stated by the Qur'an, or do you dispute this claim of the Qur'an?
Of course, the Prophet, as Allah's appointed Messenger was teaching the Qur'an, but his teachings and explanations primarily came from the Qur'an itself. We are given evidence of this in the Qur'an. Please read some of the verses from the Book to this effect. These verses not only show that his teachings were coming from the Qur'an but also that it was his SUNNAH to follow ONLY the Book of God, to teach ONLY from the Book of God, and to judge ONLY from the Book of God. If you want to follow his sunnah, there is one foolproof way to do that. Do as he did - make the Book of God the center of all teachings, obedience and judgments. You will be following the Prophet's sunnah 100%:
He does not follow any thing or any book besides the Book of Allah:
But when Our Clear ayaat are recited to them, those who rest not their hopes in meeting with Us, say Bring us a Quran other than this, or change this. Say: It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it. I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Sustainer, the punishment of a mighty day. (10:15)
He performs his duty with sincerity as Allah Commands him. His duty is to warn people, and he is warning people with the Book that Allah has given him. Here is the commandment of Allah:
And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, <auhaina_ ilaika qur a_nan arabiy yan> that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire. (42:7)
And here is the answer of the obedient Messenger:
Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. (6:19)
He is teaching people with what Allah has revealed to him. People mock and abuse him, but he is sincere to his Lord and does NOT react or compel anyone to believe he teaches what Allah has told him to teach from:
We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My Promise. (50:45)
And he obeys this command, and says:
I am commanded only that I should serve the Sustainer of this city, Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded that I should be of those who submit; And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ' astray, then say: I am only one of the warners. (27:91-22)
The Prophet Muhammad judges among people, but he does NOT judge from laws OUTSIDE of Allahs Book, as Allah commands him:
Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous. (4:105)
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; (5:48)
Being a servant of Allah, he obeys this command and does NOT judge by anything OUTSIDE of the laws of Allah as given to him through the Book of Allah. He attests to this fact and is made to say:
Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) distinctly elucidated; (6:114)
His Tafsir and teachings ALL came from the Qur'an:
The rejecters say: Why is not the Quran revealed to him all at once? Thus (it is revealed gradually) that We may strengthen your heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to you in slow well-arranged stages gradually. And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the best explanation (ahsan al Tafsir)(25:32-33)
A Book revealed to you-- so let there be no stress in your breast on account of it-- that you may warn thereby, and a reminder close to the believers. <dhikra_ lil mu'minin> (7:2)
For Allah has indeed sent down to you reminder <dhikr> A Messenger reciting the ayaat of Allah which contain clarity <Mubayyinaatin> that he may lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of darkness into Light. (65:10-11)
One Day We shall raise from all peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring you as a witness against these (your people); and We have sent down to you the Book CLARIFYING ALL things <tabayyina likulli shai>, a Guide, a Mercy, and glad tidings to Muslims (16:89)
Ramadan is the Month in which was sent down the Quran, as a Guide <Huda> to humankind and as a Clarity <Bayyinatin> for The Guidance <al-Huda> and The Criterion <al-Furqaan>. (2:185)
"And thus do We repeat the verses and that they may say: You have given the Daras(lecture); and that We may make it clear to a people who know." (6:108)
Mr. Zaid Hamid is promoting war based on some "predictions" contained in a book of ahadeeth. There is absolutely NO support for this "prediction" from Al-Furqan - The Qur'an. Instead, the Book clearly states that the Prophet DOES NOT know the ghaib (which, by definition includes the future).
wasalam,
Tabrez
gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Tabrez said:
another copy&paste expert hired by the almi majlis [wall]
gazoomartian said:
Salam Alaikum,
You wrote: "na'uzobillah. Why would I even think that narrators of Ahadeeth are prophets??"
Good. So we are on the same page with regards to that. So these people were not prophets, and therefore, they were NOT receiving revelations, and therefore, their works are works of Historians. This is what I believe. So we agree on that.
You asked me: "Now seriously, do you know the literal meaning of Ahadeeth."
Yes, I do. here are the LITERAL meanings of the word Hadeeth (the plural of which is Ahadeeth) from Arabic dictionaries:
"Hadeeth: (a) New, novel, recent, late, modern; (b) speech, chat, chitchat, small talk, conversation, talk, discussion, interview, prattle, gossip, report, account, tale, narrative" (Hans Wehr - "A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic" - Beirut 1980).
Similar meanings are given in Al-Mufradat fi Gharib al-Quran By Abdul Qasim al-Husain al-Raghib; Lisan al-Arab By Jamal al-Din Abu al-Fadzl Muhammad bin Mukarram bin Manzur; Taj al-Arus min Jawahir alQamus By Muhammad al Murtadza Husaini; and The Arabic English Lexicon By Edward W. Lane.
In fact, the Qur'an also uses this word in this meaning:
"Tilka ayatu Allahi natlooha AAalayka bialhaqqi fabiayyi hadeethin baAAda Allahi waayatihi yuminoona" meaning
"These are the verses of God that We convey unto thee, setting forth the truth. In what Hadeeth, after God and His verses, will they, then, believe?" (45:6)
You also made the statement: "By reading your response its apparent that you do not believe in Ahadeeth of Aqa (s.a.w.)".
I want to draw your attention to the meaning of the word "Aqa" that you have used for the Prophet. Here are the meanings of this word from Urdu dictionaries:
"Aaqa: - Owner, Ruler, King, Lord" ("Kitabistans New Millennium College" B.A.Qureshi Kitabistan Publishing Company, Lahore, 2005; "Firozul Lughaat", Firoz Sons, Lahore; Urdu-English Dictionary at http://urduseek.com)
The Prophet's Sunnah is to have only ONE Lord, Master, King and Owner, and that is Allah ALONE. I love the Prophet more than you can imagine, but I follow his Sunnah, and I have only Allah as my Lord, Owner, King and Ruler. There is no other.
It is a sad state that in Pakistan these days, titles like Aaqa-e-Dojahan, Sarkaar-e-Doalam, and Sartaaj-e-Alam are used to describe the Messenger of Allah. His companions never used such polytheistic titles. They always referred to him as "Rasul Allah" - "Messenger of Allah". The following are the LITERAL meanings (from the dictionary) of the titles often used in Pakistan:
Aaqa - Owner, Ruler, King, Lord
Sarkaar Ruling Authority, Government
Sartaaj Chief, Sole Ruler, The Superior
The titles used, therefore, mean:
Aaqa-e-Dojahan Owner of the two worlds; Ruler of the two worlds; King of the two wolrds; and Lord of the two worlds.
Sarkaar-e-Doalam Ruling authority of the two worlds; and Government of the two worlds.
Sartaaj-e-Alam Chief of the Universe; Sole ruler of the Universe; and The Superior of the Universe.
These are titles of Allah ALONE, but sadly, the Muslims in Pakistan use these to describe the Prophet. This was NOT the Prophet's Sunnah. He only had Allah as his Owner, Ruler, King, Lord, Ruling authority, Government, Chief, Sole ruler and The Superior of the Universe.
wasalam,
Tabrez
gazoomartian
Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Tabrez said:
you are so confusing . you are just looking audience and recognition. seems to me that you might be a qadyani or pervezi. No more arguments from me. copy&paste all ya want
Pakistani1947
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Gazoo Bhai,
It is better to keep quite if you do not have enough knowledge about the topic.
Honestly, all I see in the debate between you and Tabrez is that Tabrez is coming forward with relevant Qur'aanic verses and and very logical arguments. Regardless of the fact whether I agree with his point of view or not.
On the other hand, with due respect, you are responding merely with words like "CIA agent", "deobandi", "Wahabi", "Qadyani", "Pervaizi","paid agent", "expert hired by the almi majlis", "fasadis"," Takfiries", "tahaffuz maulvis" and "copy & paste" etc. etc.
I salute Tabrez who is spending so much time typing and trying to convince you with reference from Qur'aanic verses and Dictionaries and you are responding by say it is "copy & paste". Think before you write anything, does it make sense at all??
We are all human and can make mistake and we should be ready to accept our mistakes or errors and try to correct ourselves.
Please take it a positive criticism and again I apologize if I am hurting your feeling.
It is better to keep quite if you do not have enough knowledge about the topic.
Honestly, all I see in the debate between you and Tabrez is that Tabrez is coming forward with relevant Qur'aanic verses and and very logical arguments. Regardless of the fact whether I agree with his point of view or not.
On the other hand, with due respect, you are responding merely with words like "CIA agent", "deobandi", "Wahabi", "Qadyani", "Pervaizi","paid agent", "expert hired by the almi majlis", "fasadis"," Takfiries", "tahaffuz maulvis" and "copy & paste" etc. etc.
I salute Tabrez who is spending so much time typing and trying to convince you with reference from Qur'aanic verses and Dictionaries and you are responding by say it is "copy & paste". Think before you write anything, does it make sense at all??
We are all human and can make mistake and we should be ready to accept our mistakes or errors and try to correct ourselves.
Please take it a positive criticism and again I apologize if I am hurting your feeling.
