Why do they pick on us Pakistanis? - Dr Hood Bhai

[bons]

بھئی واہ، یعنی کہ اب جاہل ملا، لوگوں کے دین ایمان کا، جنتی یا جہنمی ہونے کا فیصلہ صادر کریں گے
ایک شعر ڈاکٹر ھود بھائی کی نظر کرنے کو دل چاہ رہا ہے

عرفی تو میندش زا غوغاے رقیباں
آواز سگاں کم نہ کند رزق گدا را​

Agar Mulla jahil hain to phir

Jahil logon ko apnay bachay ke paida hone par azan dene ke liye kioon bulwatay ho.
Jahil logon ko nikah ke liye kioon bulwatay ho?
Jab mar jatay ho to jahil logon se apna janaza kioon parhawatay ho?
Agar kabhi namaz parhni ho to jahil logon ke peechay kioon namaz parhtay ho?
Aur zindagi ka kon kon sa moqa hay jab jahil logon se rabta karatay ho?

Tum jaisay so called parhay likhay jahilon se bara jahil duniya main nahi ho ga.

Aik sher tum jaison ki nazar karne ko dil chah raha hay

Pallay nahi dhela
kardi ay mela mela

 

[crankthskunk]

Secondly, I dont know with what faculty you belonged, but let me tell you that I did my first Masters (Physics) from the same Quaid-e-Azam University (1992-94) and studied 3 major courses directly under him, so I must say that I know him well as a teacher and as well as a human being.

Kmanzar,

You say, you did your first Masters in Physics, and according to you, Phit-e-mo Bhoy was your teacher. I have some questions for both the tutor and the pupil, please educate me a novice in Physics with over dose of your wisdom and rationality.

1- Do you believe in the big bang theory?

2- Do you know if science ever found any evidence of Higgs Boson?

3- Do you know if science ever found any proofs of the anti gravitational force, which science says existed at the time of the big bang, when the tiny particle expanded rapidly and became size of marble or a grape, just before it exploded i.e. the Big Bang?

4- Give me solid, undeniable evidence how a small nucleus of the atom changes its sizes and the particles get mass? I am asking a scientific and proven fact not a theory or a computer generated simulation or the QED.

IF Science until now can not provide the answer to the simple question how the particles get mass, then how do you think, this vast universe full of matter is produced out of nothing, from a tiny wandering particle? Even if I do not ask the old age question of where was this tiny wandering particle when there was no time and space?

I am looking for the rational arguments, as you said your tutor is man of rationality. No if and buts and theoretical solutions, I am looking at good old hard facts, nothing else. And please remember I am just a novice, I have never studied Physics, not in a university any way.

I must tell you, I know, there is evidence available that some of the stars are estimated to have existed longer than 14.8 billion years, when according to you the Scientists the universe came in to existence.

I also know the red shift and galaxies which defy the rational behind the red shift. I also know existence of proofs of inter connecting galaxies in the same clusters with wide varying red shifts.

And yeah, while we are at it, I happen to know, that people like Penrose belive based on he Cosmic microwave background (WMAP) that universe existed before the big bang.

Or the theory that multiple Universes exist and it is a perpetual and infinite cycle.

Your and your tutors test of rationality is just beginning.

This is also a message for Hassan Nisar, who recently very fondly blabbed something about the CERN creating a mini Big Bang, if it could be called that. But then one should ask this journalist, how smaller then a nucleus of an atom he want it to be?

Once I saw your Phit-e-mo Bhoy speaking on his atheistic agenda about the creation of the universe according to the so-called Laws of Physics. If only the Pakistani presenters have some knowledge your rationalist could have been tied in knots.

 

[cgullpl]

Kmanzar,


This person MUST be a Christian Fundamentalist who believes in Intelligent Design.
Good luck with your fantasy.

 

[shehreyar]

ya hood nahi hay ya tu hamesha say hum ko yahood bhai lga hay ya spy lgtha hay yahood nasara ka:angry_smile:

 

[Just_one]

I agree with most of what he says, but I disagree with his comments about Imran Khan. Imran Khan is actually very liberal leaning and he is certainly not anti-West. He is only against US foreign policy.

 

[Nice2MU]

Can you please explain that what do you exactly want to say? Should I take it as some sort a cheap personal attack?


What is the basis of this thought? If you read Quran, from the beginning to end you can find lots of verses demands rationale in matters of Eeman, in contrary there is not a single verse that support non-logical approach, if you know please let me know. For your convenient, I can present few references: -

(al baq'ra, 170)
‏وَمَثَلُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ كَمَثَلِ ٱلَّذِى يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لَا يَسْمَعُ إِلَّا دُعَآءًۭ وَنِدَآءًۭ ۚ صُمٌّۢ بُكْمٌ عُمْىٌۭ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

(Anfa'l, 22)
إِنَّ شَرَّ ٱلدَّوَآبِّ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱلصُّمُّ ٱلْبُكْمُ ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

(Yunas, 42)
‏وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَسْتَمِعُونَ إِلَيْكَ ۚ أَفَأَنتَ تُسْمِعُ ٱلصُّمَّ وَلَوْ كَانُوا۟ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

(Yunas, 100)
‏وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ وَيَجْعَلُ ٱلرِّجْسَ عَلَى ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

(Al-Furqan, 73)
‏وَٱلَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُوا۟ بِـَٔايَتِ رَبِّهِمْ لَمْ يَخِرُّوا۟ عَلَيْهَا صُمًّۭا وَعُمْيَانًۭا

(Al-Saba, 46)
قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَعِظُكُم بِوَحِدَةٍۖ أَن تَقُومُوا۟ لِلَّهِ مَثْنَىٰ وَفُرَدَىٰ ثُمَّ تَتَفَكَّرُوا۟ۚ مَا بِصَاحِبِكُم مِّن جِنَّةٍۚ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا نَذِيرٌۭ لَّكُم بَيْنَ يَدَىْ عَذَابٍۢ شَدِيدٍۢ

(Al-Mulk, 10)
‏وَقَالُوا۟ لَوْ كُنَّا نَسْمَعُ أَوْ نَعْقِلُ مَا كُنَّا فِىٓ أَصْحَبِ ٱلسَّعِيرِ

and so on ...
So, in the light of Quranic teachings, I would prefer a person who develops his Islamic thoughts on rationale & logical reasoning over a Mullah who follows religious thoughts blindly


How many times you met him and discussed something on Islam? Can you please refer any of his statement that gives you a feeling about him as atheist? And definitely you must know how big the crime of declaring any Muslim a non-Muslim is.

Enlightened & Secular Peoples like you always mockering about "Mullas" and always call them as even Jahil Mullah........ why do you do that Mr? How much you know about the Religious education in Madrasa. They spend about 14 years for to get the Sanad of "Madrassas" and being a Muslim we should respect these Religious Schools because of these Religious and due to these so Called "Jahil Mullahs" Islam is Alive in our Villages (where no Ghamidi and other Islamic Scholar would go and teach people about Islam. They can only come on TV with big mouths or can give lectures in an Air Condition Hall in a big 5 Star hotels ) and Urbans areas.

Plus don't forget that Our Mosques And Islam are LIVE due to these "Jahil Mullahs" and Not due to you logical Scholars and University Doctors.

Did you see any (Doctor) Islamic Scholar leading any congregation prays in some Janaza (Final Funeral Pray), 5 times prays in the mosques, Saying Adhan in the ears of new babies, Saying an Nikah etc.

If you or me are Muslims, it is due to these "Jahil Mullas" not due to Those Scholars who can give big Lectures or can come on TV and always ,mockering about these "Jahil Mullas" in private gatherings.

These "Jahil Mullas" are preaching Islam in Villages (where about 70 % peoples live) not these Logical Scholars......

So stop mockering and insulting the Mullana Hazrat by saying them "Jahils otherwise we have also mouths and we can also say many things about your Logical Scholars and Thinkers

.........................................................................................................

Now come to Hood Bhia............. Did you see him talking about about Islam or Islamic System in Pakistan or daily life. I had given you link of review about Hood's Book. In conclusion, he wrote about the weak Islamic perceptions of Hood about Islam.... Hood looks Islam with his own eyes & brain not with Islamic Soul..... . Religious things are NOT always logical, many of the issues are related with beliefs.

He has just learnt Islam to make mockering of the Issue not to follow. I didn't need to meet him because I knew him and he is an open declare Atheist and Spy of US & India.

There are a lot of non-Muslims in the world who knows Islam not to follow but just to point out the "Mistakes" in Islam...

As I live there in QAU... We used to discuss students from Physics department. Once I had ask one of his student to come to Jumma pray. He replied "to whom I should pray in Mosque. There would no ONE in Mosque." He further said that he would do "Sajda" in front of me if I would want. And there are many such things are there and you also know very well but as you are very fan of Hood (& Hood like peoples) and have the same thinking about Islam, that's why you would hide it instead you would consider it Right.

And these are not Cheap Personal Attacks ; these are the realities of Hood. So mind your language next time, Mr Hood's Follower. I am just hitting my head with Stone to do discussion with you by the way. You belong to a different world i.e. World of Hood


About Quranic Verses, please give the translation. I am not Arab.

 

[crankthskunk]

Kmanzar, This person MUST be a Christian Fundamentalist who believes in Intelligent Design. Good luck with your fantasy.

Cgullpl,

Wrong, I am a Muslim, Allhamdullilah, lock, stock and barrel. I dont believe in ID, but Kun be and Faikun it is done.

I am waiting anxiously for the response from Kmanzar, who says he hold the Masters in Physics. I dont mind if he contacts his tutor Dr. Phat-e-mon Bhoy to get help or the esteemed Dr. answers my questions himself.

Once I receive the answers, I will proceed further. Until then, let see if Manzar can produce the factual evidence rather then fanciful theories.

I have studied this subject for more than 10 years, with deep research in to this topic. I can assure everyone, Manzar, his tutor Dr. Phat-e-mon Bhoy or any scientist can never ever provide any definite and undeniable proofs.

I have been saying this for years, Physics is the limit of our understandings of the Universe, nothing more, nothing less, we do not have the answers to most fundamental questions, absolutely no answers, fanciful theories, fanciful computer simulated data presented as Facts but no hard evidence. When it comes to Universe and its mysteries, we are in complete dark on most of the matters.

It is the game of funding, which keeps things rolling, here is the answers to most of the rants Hasan Nisar have on the TV stations. This man is an illiterate, a joker, who tries to portray himself some kind of philosopher, just because he have a column in a Newspaper.

Shame for Pakistan, our media is full of ignorant people, who have absolutely no knowledge, personality and character, to ask proper and relevant questions from retard like Hasan Nisar who regularly bashes Muslims and Islam on the TV, with his twisted arguments. He could be silenced in minutes, given an intelligent person is against him.

 

[kmanzar]

Kmanzar,

You say, you did your first Masters in Physics, and according to you, Phit-e-mo Bhoy was your teacher. I have some questions for both the tutor and the pupil, please educate me a novice in Physics with over dose of your wisdom and rationality.

1- Do you believe in the big bang theory?

2- Do you know if science ever found any evidence of Higgs Boson?

3- Do you know if science ever found any proofs of the anti gravitational force, which science says existed at the time of the big bang, when the tiny particle expanded rapidly and became size of marble or a grape, just before it exploded i.e. the Big Bang?

4- Give me solid, undeniable evidence how a small nucleus of the atom changes its sizes and the particles get mass? I am asking a scientific and proven fact not a theory or a computer generated simulation or the QED.

IF Science until now can not provide the answer to the simple question how the particles get mass, then how do you think, this vast universe full of matter is produced out of nothing, from a tiny wandering particle? Even if I do not ask the old age question of where was this tiny wandering particle when there was no time and space?

I am looking for the rational arguments, as you said your tutor is man of rationality. No if and buts and theoretical solutions, I am looking at good old hard facts, nothing else. And please remember I am just a novice, I have never studied Physics, not in a university any way.

I must tell you, I know, there is evidence available that some of the stars are estimated to have existed longer than 14.8 billion years, when according to you the Scientists the universe came in to existence.

I also know the red shift and galaxies which defy the rational behind the red shift. I also know existence of proofs of inter connecting galaxies in the same clusters with wide varying red shifts.

And yeah, while we are at it, I happen to know, that people like Penrose belive based on he Cosmic microwave background (WMAP) that universe existed before the big bang.

Or the theory that multiple Universes exist and it is a perpetual and infinite cycle.

Your and your tutor’s test of rationality is just beginning.

This is also a message for Hassan Nisar, who recently very fondly blabbed something about the CERN creating a mini Big Bang, if it could be called that. But then one should ask this journalist, how smaller then a nucleus of an atom he want it to be?

Once I saw your Phit-e-mo Bhoy speaking on his atheistic agenda about the creation of the universe according to the so-called Laws of Physics. If only the Pakistani presenters have some knowledge your rationalist could have been tied in knots.

O ho, smart guy, although I didn’t talk to you before, I don’t know your background and education level, but still able to see the actual motives from you this post.

Let me tell you that, though you picked the statements we used to hear time to time from the Christian Creationists (who just know how to pick complicated sections from scientific theories and try to fit their creational things into the holes) and though I am no more in Physics after my that masters (as did my second masters in Software Engineering and for the last 13 years associated with this field), but will try to satisfy in any case, lets move ahead with a positive mind

Before coming to your actual point, its background needs to be understood, I hope if I can explain briefly.

Science:
Science is a fact of life; it’s a knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, concerned with the physical world. Purpose of science is to produce useful models of physical truths of the universe. Science is not a static thing, it always progresses forward even updating (or even negating sometimes) its older facts (and this is the reason that instead of dragging on stone plate, you are typing on keyboard).

Religion:
Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause and purpose of the universe, a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Then what is the root cause of problem? Let me explain by putting an easier example: -

Example:
Science can tell that what kind of changes a human body faces upon eating an apple. It can explain the vitamins, salts etc that an apple contains and their consequent effects on the human body.

But science CANNOT explain the difference if someone buys and eat, with to someone who steals then eats. Science tells that both persons get the same ‘advantage’ on eating. So, then what’s wrong with stealing, here the domain of religion starts (and vise versa, it’s not the field of religion to define the types of vitamins etc in an apple and so)

A problem occurs when people inter-mix these two distinctively separated realms. If these two domains keep separated, there won’t be an issue.

Issues with Christianity
Both the Christian Church and Orthodox Jews have issues with modern science, because in their sacred texts, there are full chapters on creation of universe and life (e.g. Old Testament: Chapter 1, The Creation, etc), so with the evolution of modern science, when open facts started colliding with the Christians sacred texts, Church went offensive on science and scientists (and Galileo’s case illustrates a lot on it), and this war continued till the modern science proved itself in many areas, and in general west said good bye to the Church.

Islam & Science
In my opinion this is not an issue with the Islam (that’s why we say that Islam doesn’t oppose science, and I have a full believe on this statement). Reason is very simple, unlike other religions, Islam has a distinctive feature that it’s most sacred text (Quran) is still in the original form. And concept of God (Allah Almighty) in Islam is very different from a Biblical Human like God (who creates things with hands, who can walk in evenings to take fresh air, who can fight with humans etc). There is no physical description of God presented in the whole Quran, only it describes some humanly understandable attributes of Him (Asma-e-Husna). And according to Quran, every event in the universe get started to its destination whenever God ordered just by saying ‘Kun’, after that universal forces start playing their role and so.

So, unlike to the Church (you can be either a Christian (creationist) or a Scientist (atheist)), this is not issue with Muslims at all. Any person can be a true Muslim as well a true admirer of science in parallel, no problem in that

Phew….

Now coming to your points

1- Do you believe in the big bang theory?

Yes, I do, because that what I learned during my studies. If you want to know how the theory evolved, then please update your knowledge on: -
The Doppler Effect
The Red shift phenomenon (you said you know about this)
The "Inflation" Theory
Dark Matter

I believe, because in the field of science such believes on any specific scientific theory or model are based on observations, experiments and mathimatical calculations. The big bang's phemomenon is such sort of thing that is linked with a hypothetical scientific model of universe (similar to the atomic structure model) based on mathematical formulas, scientific evidences and continues research in this field for last 100 years. Of course, there are still lots of gaps n holes in this Big bang model needs to be filled, but, those can be filled by of scientific process only. If you have any alternate model (based on some observations and mathematical formulas), then please let me know (but it should not those old stupid Christian Creationists ideas, I want to hear something new)

2- Do you know if science ever found any evidence of Higgs Boson?

Please read this: -
http://cms.web.cern.ch/cms/Physics/HuntingHiggs/index.html

3- Do you know if science ever found any proofs of the anti gravitational force, which science says existed at the time of the big bang, when the tiny particle expanded rapidly and became size of marble or a grape, just before it exploded i.e. the Big Bang?

4- Give me solid, undeniable evidence how a small nucleus of the atom changes its sizes and the particles get mass? I am asking a scientific and proven fact not a theory or a computer generated simulation or the QED.

You need to read a lot on scientific process, concept of hypothetical models in science, time-space and theory of relativity before understanding such complex concepts (you said that you are novice in Physics, never studied Physics in university)

IF Science until now can not provide the answer to the simple question how the particles get mass, then how do you think, this vast universe full of matter is produced out of nothing, from a tiny wandering particle? Even if I do not ask the old age question of where was this tiny wandering particle when there was no time and space?

I will give the same old answer, this is the field of science, it progressed from creating a wheel (or even before) till now, with lots of improvements and changes, and still progressing. Definitely it will find the solutions of such complicated concepts, but when, I simply don’t know.

I don’t exactly know your actual objective, but if you want to learn, those points may satisfy you.
And one last thing, though I tried to explain you my point of view, but I really DON'T like to see someone calling my teachers by names, so if you want some constructive discussion, try to use civilized language, otherwise I won't be able to proceed with you

 

[kmanzar]

Agar Mulla jahil hain to phir

Jahil logon ko apnay bachay ke paida hone par azan dene ke liye kioon bulwatay ho.​

Jahil logon ko nikah ke liye kioon bulwatay ho?​

Jab mar jatay ho to jahil logon se apna janaza kioon parhawatay ho?​

Agar kabhi namaz parhni ho to jahil logon ke peechay kioon namaz parhtay ho?​

Aur zindagi ka kon kon sa moqa hay jab jahil logon se rabta karatay ho?​

Tum jaisay so called parhay likhay jahilon se bara jahil duniya main nahi ho ga. ​

Aik sher tum jaison ki nazar karne ko dil chah raha hay​

Pallay nahi dhela ​

kardi ay mela mela​

ویسے تو میرا اشارہ کسی اور کی طرف تھا، پر جب آپ نے بات چھیڑ ہی دی ہے تو عرض ہے کے

حضور والا، یہ ہمارے معاشرے میں پائی جانے والی عمومی جہالت ہی تو ہے کہ ہمارے لوگ ایسے کاموں کے لئے بھی نیم مللاؤں (میں ملا اور عالم میں تفریق کروں گا) پہ انحصار کرتے ہیں
کیا آنحضرت (ص) کے زمانے میں یا بعد میں خلفا راشدین کے وقت اس طرح کا کوئی طبقہ پایا جاتا تھا جنھیں لوگ صرف ان کاموں کے لئے بلاتے ہوں
بلکہ سوچئے کہ اگر ہم ان بڑے ناموں کے ساتھ مولانا، مفتی کے سابقے لگایں (مولانا ابو بکر، مولوی عمر، مفتی عثمان، پیر علی صاحب وغیرہ ) تو وہ کتنے اجنبی سے لگیں
یہ طبقہ ہم نے صرف اپنی اپنی عمومی کمزوریوں کے تحت پروان چڑھایا ہے

کم از کم مجھے اپنے بچوں کی پیدائش کے وقت کسی مولوی صاحب کو ڈھونڈنا نہیں پڑا تھا (الحمد لللہ، مجھے اذان دینا ضرور آتی ہے

آخر میں آپکے ہی شعر میں کچھ قطع برید کی گستاخی کر رہا ہوں
(قافیے اور وزن پہ معذرت) ​

Pallay nahi dhela ​

jadon ee ay har paasay mullah​

 

[kmanzar]

Enlightened & Secular Peoples like you always mockering about "Mullas" and always call them as even Jahil Mullah........ why do you do that Mr?

Dear o dear

Another piece of emotional chantey reply from you (full of jazbaat but dalail se khali) as per expected :)
Calm down please merey jazbati bhai, (reply se pehlay thoda thanda pani pee laitay to behtar thaa)

How much you know about the Religious education in Madrasa.

Okay, you want start debate on Madrassa system, please create a new thread, then I will explain you what I know about the Madrassas, Dars-e-Nizami, our Wifaaq-Ul Madaris system and many more

Plus don't forget that Our Mosques And Islam are LIVE due to these "Jahil Mullahs" and Not due to you logical Scholars and University Doctors.

and that exactly is the dilemma of our society, that instead of true literate Islamic scholars (Aalims) majority of those madarassas are heading by most deprived and illiterate class of people from society

Did you see any (Doctor) Islamic Scholar leading any congregation prays in some Janaza (Final Funeral Pray), 5 times prays in the mosques, Saying Adhan in the ears of new babies, Saying an Nikah etc.

Do you know anything about: -
Dr. Israr Ahmed (now prayers are lead by his son Dr Arif sb)
Dr Tahir Ul Qadri
Dr Khalid Zaheer
Allama Ibtisam Illahi
Dr Zafar Ishaq Ansari
Dr Mohammad Shaikh
and many more

All the given names lead prayes in mosques too, but do any of these highly respected scholars studied in any madrassas?
Even if I have some difference of opinion but I do respect all such knowledgeable scholars, and I wish that some day most of our mosques lead by such knowledgeable people

If you or me are Muslims, it is due to these "Jahil Mullas" not due to Those Scholars who can give big Lectures or can come on TV and always ,mockering about these "Jahil Mullas" in private gatherings.

No my dear, I am Muslim because I born and raised in a Muslim family (in a small sect in Pakistan call themselves as Salafi, Ghair Muqalad, Ahal Hadith, or generally known as Wahabees in society), but I didn’t keep myself blind follower of my family thoughts. I studied more n more about different flavors of Islam and still in learning process and very happy that now I call myself Muslim ONLY (without having any sectarian tag)

So stop mockering and insulting the Mullana Hazrat by saying them "Jahils otherwise we have also mouths and we can also say many things about your Logical Scholars and Thinkers

Is that so? Can you bother yourself to have a look on your posts on this thread and on others too on this forum?

As I live there in QAU... We used to discuss students from Physics department. Once I had ask one of his student to come to Jumma pray. He replied "to whom I should pray in Mosque. There would no ONE in Mosque." He further said that he would do "Sajda" in front of me if I would want. And there are many such things are there and you also know very well but as you are very fan of Hood (& Hood like peoples) and have the same thinking about Islam, that's why you would hide it instead you would consider it Right.

So is that all your basis of hatred? You never met him in your life, never tried to verify whatever you hear about him even you had a chance (Bas idhar udhar ki suni sunaee baton pe yaqeen kar liya aur nafrat ki aag dil main paalay jaa rahay ho). Isn’t is the same state of mind of a suicide bomber (who just brainwashed to see all innocent people as agents of Kuffr, and never gives a second thought whatever he know). This is what we call ‘immature behavior’ and I requested couple of times to be grown up. Make your mind broader before participating in discussions

I am just hitting my head with Stone to do discussion with you by the way

Good work, and please do carry on because I heard that if two stones keep striking for a long time, there could be a chance of producing spark [hilar]

About Quranic Verses, please give the translation. I am not Arab.

Oh sorry, though I referred the Suras Names along with the ayah number, but I didn’t know that you won’t even have any translation of Holy Quran with you. Please bookmark the following link for the future references
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/web/endix.html

 

[Nice2MU]

ویسے تو میرا اشارہ کسی اور کی طرف تھا، پر جب آپ نے بات چھیڑ ہی دی ہے تو عرض ہے کے

حضور والا، یہ ہمارے معاشرے میں پائی جانے والی عمومی جہالت ہی تو ہے کہ ہمارے لوگ ایسے کاموں کے لئے بھی نیم مللاؤں (میں ملا اور عالم میں تفریق کروں گا) پہ انحصار کرتے ہیں
کیا آنحضرت (ص) کے زمانے میں یا بعد میں خلفا راشدین کے وقت اس طرح کا کوئی طبقہ پایا جاتا تھا جنھیں لوگ صرف ان کاموں کے لئے بلاتے ہوں
بلکہ سوچئے کہ اگر ہم ان بڑے ناموں کے ساتھ مولانا، مفتی کے سابقے لگایں (مولانا ابو بکر، مولوی عمر، مفتی عثمان، پیر علی صاحب وغیرہ ) تو وہ کتنے اجنبی سے لگیں
یہ طبقہ ہم نے صرف اپنی اپنی عمومی کمزوریوں کے تحت پروان چڑھایا ہے

کم از کم مجھے اپنے بچوں کی پیدائش کے وقت کسی مولوی صاحب کو ڈھونڈنا نہیں پڑا تھا (الحمد لللہ، مجھے اذان دینا ضرور آتی ہے

آخر میں آپکے ہی شعر میں کچھ قطع برید کی گستاخی کر رہا ہوں
(قافیے اور وزن پہ معذرت) ​

Pallay nahi dhela ​

jadon ee ay har paasay mullah​

You usually started issue but without any sense. Please some time try to use it instead of pointing out wrong things due to justify your "Logic".

For the "Amomi Jahalat"........U should imagine that how many Sahabs were at the time of Prophet (PBUH)? Very Little as compare to today's population of Muslims.

They used to present in the Gathering and very fresh in Eiman and wanted to learn & Follow every single act & sayings of Prophet pbuh. So almost everyone know to do the Adhan but there used to be the "Buddoos" at that time. Had they the same knowledge like Sahabs (RA)?

About the prefix of Molvies or Mufti......... by the way we are using Prefix & Suffixes with Prophets and Sahaba i.e. Alaih Salam, Razi Ullah etc. and Hazrat as Prefix........... By the way Razi Ullah suffix was given by Allah (in Quran) to Sahabs.

And why are we use Doctor (Dr), Engineer (Eng.), Professor (Prof), Sir etc. to worldly educated people? Did you raise any objection on that as well. If we use it then why not for Molvies Hazrat? Why it hurt you man and people like you?


So try to Use your brain before "flow in the row" of Logic.

 

[crankthskunk]

KManzar

Lets put it this way, I am not surprised from your response a bit. I was expecting it, because I know you dont have any answers. No one have, not even your Dr. even though he always lectures on how physics provides the answers, but every educated and informed persons know it is the biggest lie, Physics do not provide these answers.

Yes, I do, because that what I learned during my studies. If you want to know how the theory evolved, then please update your knowledge on: -
The Doppler Effect
The Red shift phenomenon (you said you know about this)
The "Inflation" Theory
Dark Matter

I think you dont read properly, I said, I spend 10 years researching this topic. And you in your feeble mind think, I have not read these issues? You are typical of people who do not even know how to conduct a discussion.

Mr. let me tell you loud and clear, I not only know these concepts but I have done a thorough research, didnt you notice I said I know the red shift? And also said I know the evidence of the galaxies interconnected to each other but having different red shift? I have studied the evidence of the Galaxies produce by Halton Arp and now by some others. Same Halton Arp to whom youre Scientists refused to provide observatory time.

As for dark matter and black holes, let me say only this, it may give you the hint, your demigod Stephen Hawking has not received a noble prize yet. I am sure you know why.

Despite you producing irrelevant paragraphs on religion and science. You didnt answer my questions.

KManzar, I gave you this challenge, I am waiting, go and ask Dr. Bhoy, let me see how rationalists and logical he is. He is lucky, he only faced extremely poorly prepared and informed presenters on Pakistani TV channels, if he comes in front of me, he will be spinning like a lutto.

 

[crankthskunk]

KManzar

Let me analysed your statements about science, we are not discussing the religion here, nor did I ask you your opinion about the religion.

Science is not a static thing, it always progresses forward even updating (or even negating sometimes) its older facts (and this is the reason that instead of dragging on stone plate, you are typing on keyboard).

I am sure it does progress, so what happens to the older facts when they are negated? Dont you think, when something is negated it becomes a lie?

If it is negated now and became a lie, then how was it a fact before?

Hmmm, you see how your Dr. Phet-e-mo Bhoy will be in a spin, if he ever faces someone like me you are in a deep dodo even though I am not discussing specific issues yet, because I dont think you have the intellectual capacity to have a constructive discussion.

Mark my words, if I say, Physics is the limit of our understandings of the universe I know what I am talking. You have just provided the proof that Physics in these issues is nothing but a shot in the dark, and by progress and negating; what you are stating is that the theories are put forward and once they fail, new theories are presented and the older ones are rejected or to use your words, negated.

But no scientist would accept that it was a lie to start with in plain and simple language. Because if they do how they will get the funding for future lies, oh my apology, future theories?

 

[Just_one]

crankthskunk,

Science is the reason why you are able to type on your keyboard and communicate with people who are far away from you. When you get a disease, it is the doctor that you consult and not the mullah. The medicine with which you trust your life are the product of science and not religion. The millions that now live and don't die at a young age due to infectious diseases, is the blessing of science and not religion. You and I may not even be alive to do this communication were it not for science and its consequences. In short, we owe our comfort, our health and even our life - to some or greater extent - to science.

In short, science produces tangible results and has at lot to show for.

What does religion have to show for? Nothing.

Religion demands blind belief from us. Science is based on observation and evidence.

There were many people like you who questioned science on the existence of atom, then electron, and so on. Their grand children are now using computers based on the electronic theory of electricity and atomic theory of matter.

The same guiding principle that guided scientists in their quest which resulted in the technological revolution that has left no one untouched - not even the cynics - is guiding scientists in their quest to investigate further and further into the universe, life and the origin of both.

Why be a cynic? Why question science when you avail yourself from its fruits on daily basis? Science is not like religion that asks you to believe blindly, all it ask is to think logically and intelligently. Have you any alternative theory regarding the Cosmos? Write a paper and apply for publication in a scientific journal. Go to a scientific conference and present your calculations and evidences, while point out errors and contradictions in the theories you oppose, and convince the very same experts who you yourself claim are intelligent and balanced enough not to award Hawking a noble prize.

Don't have the guts or the knowledge to do that? Then immerse yourself in further study through the means that are provided to you by none other than science itself.

You say you will knock down Hoodboy given the chance to debate him on TV. But do you have the stature to attain such an opportunity?

Think.

 

[Just_one]

crankthskunk,

Science is the reason why you are able to type on your keyboard and communicate with people who are far away from you. When you get a disease, it is the doctor that you consult and not the mullah. The medicine with which you trust your life are the product of science and not religion. The millions that now live and don't die at a young age due to infectious diseases, is the blessing of science and not religion. You and I may not even be alive to do this communication were it not for science and its consequences. In short, we owe our comfort, our health and even our life - to some or greater extent - to science.

In short, science produces tangible results and has at lot to show for.

What does religion have to show for? Nothing.

Religion demands blind belief from us. Science is based on observation and evidence.

There were many people like you who questioned science on the existence of atom, then electron, and so on. Their grand children are now using computers based on the electronic theory of electricity and atomic theory of matter.

The same guiding principle that guided scientists in their quest which resulted in the technological revolution that has left no one untouched - not even the cynics - is guiding scientists in their quest to investigate further and further into the universe, life and the origin of both.

Why be a cynic? Why question science when you avail yourself from its fruits on daily basis? Science is not like religion that asks you to believe blindly, all it ask is to think logically and intelligently. Have you any alternative theory regarding the Cosmos? Write a paper and apply for publication in a scientific journal. Go to a scientific conference and present your calculations and evidences, while point out errors and contradictions in the theories you oppose, and convince the very same experts who you yourself claim are intelligent and balanced enough not to award Hawking a noble prize.

Don't have the guts or the knowledge to do that? Then immerse yourself in further study through the means that are provided to you by none other than science itself.

You say you will knock down Hoodboy given the chance to debate him on TV. But do you have the stature to attain such an opportunity?

Think.

 

[crankthskunk]

Just one,

Let stick to the issues I raised, I am not bashing the science as a whole, read my posts again please.

Dont bring irrelevant things in to the discussion. I didnt even bring religion in to the discussion it is raised by KManzar and they other guy who straight away called me a Christian.

Science is the reason why you are able to type on your keyboard and communicate with people who are far away from you. When you get a disease, it is the doctor that you consult and not the mullah. The medicine with which you trust your life are the product of science and not religion. The millions that now live and don't die at a young age due to infectious diseases, is the blessing of science and not religion. You and I may not even be alive to do this communication were it not for science and its consequences. In short, we owe our comfort, our health and even our life - to some or greater extent - to science.

I will give you a simple response, even though I am not discussing other aspects of the science but just the Physics and that also in the context of creation and astronomy.

Tell me please, when these new medications created by the modern science become available to the public?

I give you few things to ponder, check the ages of the human in the ancient times they lived hundred of years without the modern medicines, by large, far longer than modern human.

And just to give you more to think, look also, how many disease were there in the past, and how many new diseases have sprung up ever since science progressed? And lastly, what about side effects of modern medications? You cure one ailment and get another one as a bonus, good bargain isnt it?

Also check, most of the ailments are direct results of the chemicals created by the science and used in the products.

As for religion, it never claimed to provide nitty gritty of daily life or scientific experiments, but the food for our souls. Islam provides basic rules how to live and govern our lives in this world, but it also direct us to gain worldly education. I am educated, so your are arguing on wrong points.

But religion, I am only talking about Islam, also provides us the best way to achieve success for the coming and eternal life in heaven by doing the right deeds. According to the Holy Quran, that eternal life is forever, without diseases and death. Now you tell me, what is better to have a good eternal life or worry about blink of an eye in this world?

This is enough on the religion, either of you can provide answers to my questions, please.

 

[Nice2MU]

Another piece of emotional chantey reply from you (full of jazbaat but dalail se khali) as per expected :)[/FONT][/SIZE]
Calm down please merey jazbati bhai, (reply se pehlay thoda thanda pani pee laitay to behtar thaa)

What is the reply?........Just beat about the bushes. U did the same as you blame me for it.

SIZE=2]Okay, you want start debate on Madrassa system, please create a new thread, then I will explain you what I know about the Madrassas, Dars-e-Nizami, our Wifaaq-Ul Madaris system and many more [/SIZE]

There is no need to start threat. Lets start here. How much you know about it? Names are not enough.

and that exactly is the dilemma of our society, that instead of true literate Islamic scholars (Aalims) majority of those madarassas are heading by most deprived and illiterate class of people from society

It is not the Dilemma, it is the reality of the day. Many of the Madrasses are headed by many eminent scholars (Which you called Jahil Mullas). I might agree with for few, but not for all. But people like generalise it on all Madrassas. Why?

SIZE=2]Do you know anything about: -[/SIZE]
Dr. Israr Ahmed (now prayers are lead by his son Dr Arif sb)
Dr Tahir Ul Qadri
Dr Khalid Zaheer
Allama Ibtisam Illahi
Dr Zafar Ishaq Ansari
Dr Mohammad Shaikh
and many more

All the given names lead prayes in mosques too, but do any of these highly respected scholars studied in any madrassas?

Even if I have some difference of opinion but I do respect all such knowledgeable scholars, and I wish that some day most of our mosques lead by such knowledgeable people

I know many of them and I have attended speeches of Dr Israr and Dr Tahir quite few times in Peshawar. But can you give 100 names of such scholars? Don't forget there are more than 170 millions peoples in Pakistan. How many of such scholars can lead daily prayers congregation for 170 millions peoples and how many of them can Head Madrassas.

About 70 % of 170 Millions live in Villages and can you give me any name of such scholar who run any Madrassas and Mosques in Villages?

So we have to look again to those "Jahil" Mullas to run and head the Madrassas and Mosques.

But I think peoples like you don't care about the Religious affairs and Prayers of the villagers and forget the ground realities.

So your reply was not "Rational & Logical" (according to your belief)

There might be the some who might studied in Islamic Universities, but can you imagine how many of those Universities Professor got educated?

No my dear, I am Muslim because I born and raised in a Muslim family (in a small sect in Pakistan call themselves as Salafi, Ghair Muqalad, Ahal Hadith, or generally known as Wahabees in society), but I didnt keep myself blind follower of my family thoughts. I studied more n more about different flavors of Islam and still in learning process and very happy that now I call myself Muslim ONLY (without having any sectarian tag)

I would ask whether your parents were Prophets or were they receiving direct Revelations. How did your parents and forefathers become or remained Muslims? They were remained Muslims with those "Jahil" Mullas that's why you are Muslim.

Don't be irrational (as per your belief) please.

Is that so? Can you bother yourself to have a look on your posts on this thread and on others too on this forum?

What is meant by that? Not Rational.........No Good

So is that all your basis of hatred? You never met him in your life, never tried to verify whatever you hear about him even you had a chance (Bas idhar udhar ki suni sunaee baton pe yaqeen kar liya aur nafrat ki aag dil main paalay jaa rahay ho). Isnt is the same state of mind of a suicide bomber (who just brainwashed to see all innocent people as agents of Kuffr, and never gives a second thought whatever he know). This is what we call immature behavior and I requested couple of times to be grown up. Make your mind broader before participating in discussions

I have an opinion (Based on Facts) about him like you have about "Jahil" Mullas. I am trying to clear the position & importance of "Jahil" Mullas but you just ask me about Hood that did I have meet him or did I have discuss anything about Islam with Mr Hood. Can you tell my his opinions about Islam & Prophet (PBUH) and can you show me in written.

Do you have any dialogue with "Jahil Mullas" and can you share any out come with us?

I will also advice to leave these Enlightened Behaviour and don't try to change Islam according to your wishes. I will not ask you to grow up because are already over-Growed that's why you are mockering and Insulting the Scholars.

Good work, and please do carry on because I heard that if two stones keep striking for a long time, there could be a chance of producing spark [hilar]

Don't impose your Physic on me......I don't want get damage my brain by hitting with stone.

Oh sorry, though I referred the Suras Names along with the ayah number, but I didnt know that you wont even have any translation of Holy Quran with you. Please bookmark the following link for the future references
http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/web/endix.html

[/QUOTE]

I have my Translations, Tafaaseer and Hadiths books with me but it is your duty to convey your message laud and clear. Why do you try me to search the translation and wast my time?

Do you understand the following?

"Hus Ba Tarta Pata Ollagi, Da Hood Parookara"

 

[sngilani]

COMMENT: Dying for the truth —Dr Mahjabeen Islam

Salmaan Taseer saw Islam as inclusive and maternal — after all the word rahman comes from the root word rahm, which means womb in Arabic. He wanted the state to be forgiving, nurturing and maternal the way that God is. As an educated and enlightened man, he was able to see things in the larger perspective rather than getting all fired up over a villager’s alleged disrespect

Quietly, in the recesses of your mind ask yourself who really represents Islam.

Is it that intrepid man who paid the ultimate price for “stand out firmly for justice even if it goes against yourselves your parents or your relatives” (Quran 4:135)? Or is it the bearded, turbaned, self-appointed custodians of Islam who celebrate murder and conspire to kill more, and who are thus going against the oft repeated, “If anyone kills one person, it is as though they have killed all of mankind” (Quran 5:32)?

When the Danish cartoons were published, the West was painstakingly made to understand that for Muslims the hierarchy of love, devotion and respect is God, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and parents. Whenever a Muslim takes the shahadah (bear witness) in sincerity, a bond is born with God and the Prophet (PBUH), but this is not one for exhibition, examination or critical display. Unless a person actually physically renounces Islam, he is not a blasphemer. And even if he does, on the basis of “there is no compulsion in religion” (Quran 2:256), the punishment is not to kill him. This fanatical face of Islam and the greatest disservice to it has been done by the ayatollahs, imams and sheikhs who need a reason to exist.

One of the great tragedies for current day Muslims is lack of a central religious authority like the Vatican where scholars with defined expertise could render judgment on contemporary issues. Al-Azhar in Egypt that comes somewhat close to that has unequivocally ruled on both murtads (renouncers of Islam) as well as suicide bombers. Death is not prescribed for one who renounces Islam. And suicide bombing is haram (forbidden). Simple.

Salmaan Taseer, the governor of Punjab died in harness, did not at anytime renounce Islam, nor disrespect the Prophet (PBUH). Islam is an evidence-based religion. And it is a benign, kind faith. It inclines toward forgiveness and second chances. It recognises the Satan that anger is and extols calmness: “The righteous are those that control their anger and forgive other people” (Quran 3:134).

We have a dual responsibility: as practitioners of the faith we will be called to account on the Day of Judgment for why we misrepresented it so and made it look so violent, hate-filled, vengeful and dinosaurian; and as Pakistanis we must rapidly rid our society of fanatical thought. For before too long there will be more and more hate-inspired killings and the fear that people have now of going out of their homes will seem minuscule. Anyone that veers from the line decided in some mullah’s mind is wajib-ul-qatl (worthy of murder) and the ease and frequency of such murders make it seem that we are at the verge of hordes of lunatics running rabid throughout the land wiping out anyone that dissents with their point of view.

In their great fervour, the mullahs of Pakistan have perhaps forgotten the concept of individual and collective sin. We will have to account for our sins individually but our religious leaders will have to pay/receive two times. If they inspire their congregations to do good deeds, they get a reward as well, but if they promote murder and mayhem, and especially if they do it in the name of Prophet Muhammad, “the one that was sent as a mercy to all mankind” (Quran 21:07), they might find themselves invoking God’s wrath rather than His grace.

It is a travesty that minorities and now ‘liberals’ receive and suffer death pronouncements in the name of a man (PBUH) who was the epitome of tolerance and manners. Historians (Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1,311) report that as a funeral of a Jew passed before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), as a sign of respect he stood up. In doing this, he showed respect and shared in the feeling of sorrow with the Jewish family and community. “Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?” he was asked. The Prophet replied: “Is it not a human soul?”

Salmaan Taseer stood beside a helpless Pakistani-Christian woman and appealed for her forgiveness and repeal of Pakistan’s archaic blasphemy laws that are used for personal and political gain. Salmaan Taseer saw Islam as inclusive and maternal — after all the word rahman comes from the root word rahm, which means womb in Arabic. He wanted the state to be forgiving, nurturing and maternal the way that God is. As an educated and enlightened man, he was able to see things in the larger perspective rather than getting all fired up over a villager’s alleged disrespect.

Islam promotes dialogue and is actually one of the few religions that stand up to harsh inquiry. But mullahs insist on blind faith and no questions. There is no evidence in the Prophet’s (PBUH) life or during the reign of the four caliphs that any action was taken against anyone regarding blasphemy. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was mistreated by a woman that threw garbage at him but he went to visit her when she was sick. Contrast this to the Facebook followers and the lawyers who praised and showered rose-petals on Mumtaz Quadri for murdering Salmaan Taseer.

They pelted stones at Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in Taif and Gabriel said that God could wipe them out if Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) wanted. But the most magnificent of all men declined. Contrast this to the Jamat-e-Islami’s Asadullah Bhutto who declared that “the one who has killed Taseer is a pious man and will go to the Seventh Heaven”. And here I thought prophethood and revelation had stopped with Muhammad (PBUH).

Naseeruddin Shah brilliantly acted in ‘Khuda key liye’ and the line “with haram money in their pockets, they run all over town looking for zabiha [sacrifice] meat” is so pointedly representative of the mullah mindset that has taken over Pakistan, and is bent on razing it to the ground.

A few days before his death when questioned about his security detail and its insufficiency, Salmaan Taseer said: “Aaj bazaar main pa bajolan chalo/Rakhte Dil bandh lo Dil fagaro chalo/Phir hamen qatl ho ayen yaro chalo” (Today, let us walk through bazaar with feet in chains/ Pick up the burden of heart, let us go, heartbroken ones/ Let us offer ourselves, once again, for execution).

Few in Pakistan’s history were as frank and fearless as Salmaan Taseer, ready and willing to die for the truth. If we do not stand up as a nation to the flames of fanaticism, bigotry and hatred, Pakistan will self-destruct. In the foreseeable future.

The writer is a family physician, addictionist and freelance columnist with a practice in Toledo, Ohio(www.thenews.com.pk)​

 

[Raaz]

ڈاکٹر اوت بھائی is student of Dr. Abduslam . rearch on wikipedia , U will find it.

So what kind of Ideas , Dr Salam could have about Islam and Pakistan , U could imagine by the views of this guy.

Actually their Direction is different , Their kaba is Israel. sorry to say.

And Dr. salam was the group fellow of two jews scientists. They all got the Nobel prize. Not Dr. salam alone.

This is just for information.

 

[crankthskunk]

There were many people like you who questioned science on the existence of atom, then electron, and so on. Their grand children are now using computers based on the electronic theory of electricity and atomic theory of matter.

Just one,

You are not only misguided but also misinformed. As I say, the religion of Islam provides the guidance necessary to spend our life according to the wishes of Allah SWT to succeed in the hereafter. Therefore, the Holy Quran lists adequately, what is expected from us by Allah SWT in our daily lives, and how to spend our lives.

But the Holy Quran also states some basic scientific facts. Allah SWT doesnt have to provide details of scientific experiments to convince sceptics like you. He SWT doesnt need to test and prove anything to anyone, remember He SWT is the Creator He SWT created everything with His SWT Creative Powers. He SWT knows the nature of all the things; He is All Knowing, All Powerful Creator of the Universe.

And it is your mistake to think that Allah SWT has not told us about the atom.


10:61 AND IN whatever condition thou mayest find thyself, [O Prophet,] and whatever discourse of this [divine writ] thou mayest be reciting, and whatever work you [all, O men,] may do -[remember that] We are your witness [from the moment] when you enter upon it: for, not even an atom's weight [of whatever there is] on earth or in heaven escapes thy Sustainer's knowledge; and neither is there anything smaller than that, or larger, but is recorded in [His] clear decree.

And if you have patience you can also see that Allah SWT also informed us about the sub-atomic particles in the atom. The atoms consist of Nucleus surrounded by electrons, containing protons and neutrons. Quarks are an example of sub-atomic particles.

This fact is repeated again in the following verse with the warnings to the unbelievers that the hour will be upon us all of a sudden.


34:3 And yet, they who are bent on denying the truth assert, Never will the Last Hour come upon us! Say: Nay, by my Sustainer! By Him who knows all that is beyond the reach of a created beings perception: it will most certainly come upon you! Not an atoms weight [of whatever there is] in the heavens or on earth escapes His knowledge; and neither is there anything smaller than that, or larger, but is recorded in [His] clear decree,

The words used in the Holy Quran is Misqala Zarati (like an atom), or wala asghar min zalika something smaller then the atom.

I dont know about your religion, but my religion surely provided me the knowledge well before your science found it out.

I suggest you hold back, I am a well researched man; you just wouldnt win against me using these kinds of arguments. If I am ready to take on someone who says he has Masters in Physics and even take on his tutor with a PhD, then I am not kidding at all.