Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I am not sure what point you're trying to make here? Killing animals is bad?
The stupidity that is atheism
- Thread starter Steyn
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I am not sure what point you're trying to make here? Killing animals is bad?
Liberal 000
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Because vegenerianism is getting popular in Athiest, Agnostic and deist West. A big number of people there now think killing animals is an immorality and cruelty!
Look they are even saying you don't kill animals but you are arguing how can Atheist know a murder of a human being a bad thing !
What about slavery who told you turning people into slavery is a bad thing?
Liberal 000
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Religion is mainly being followed by uneducated poor masses. Less population means people will have more resources more education and logical thinking
Religion has no place in such a population dynamics. If someone has only one child he won't like to sacrifice him for religion and nor a child having all the facilities including best education will be willling to sacrifice himself for religion though few exceptions will always be there!
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The biggest vegetarians are in India. Don't make up statistics from your own. Vegatarianism has nothing to do with Atheism.
And I have something for vegans. You're killing life whether you eat plants or animals. Our whole existence is based on killing other creatures. Even if you stand still just by breathing you're murdering creatures.
Do you know even bacteria resist being killed and have distress signals in their community? Vegans don't kill animals but they're murdering plants who can't even run and bacteria and fungi.
For your second point, you're proving my point. West didn't consider slavery wrong until recently. Islam abolished slavery before anyone even considered it wrong. Islam didn't even allowed people to call slaves slaves but brothers and sons.
Morality is from God. If there was no religion, we would all be plundering and raping and doing whatever felt good.
That was the norm anyway before religion came.
You need to read history.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It's quite to the contrary. Only the most moronic of humans believe in atheism. Because atheism means shutting down your logical brain and believing humans came from nothing.
It is always strange to see atheists asking for an evidence or proof of GOD. Actaully it is not the proof they are looking for rather it is the proof of their choice they ask for. Same is in your case. If we ask you to prove the existance of Mogul King Akbar, how will you prove it ? If i ask you about prove if you had a great great great grand father, How will you prove it ? How will you prove it if there was an Aristotle ? Or even there was another person name Newton or Gellilio ? You will bring in some logics and proofs depending on what you is available which may or may be acceptable . Important thing is you first need to define what is a PROOF for you ? Define it in a way so that it is universally applicable. Let see your definition of a proof and then we can deal with the burden of proof on our shoulders as well.
This is easy. The Surah I believe that this is quoted from is Surah An-Nur 24:40? Am I right?
Or [the state of a disbeliever] is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.
It is talking about the state of the disbeliever. If you read this in context to the disbeliever as it is mentioned; I don't think you can take this in the literal sense. When I read it, all I see is a visualization of the disbeliever being in darkness. Like the darkness of the vast deep sea. With wave upon wave between him and the surface. If he reached out his hand in front of him he will not be able to see it. Such darkness.
It would be a big stretch to take it as far as the Youtube video has taken it. But then again when you have faith you see what your eyes want to see. It is only human. :)
If this is how you have interpretted the verse then there is no difference between you and a 1300 year old Mufassir who at the time had no idea of the deep secrets of Sea waters. Look how ignorant you can be when it is convenient for you to be.
Liberal 000
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
We were plundering, killing, looting, turning people into slavery and raping their women throughout history only difference was before religion all it was in the name of tribal superiority and later in the name of religion
Just 100 years ago when West was Christian vegetarianism was unthinkable there. Now a big number of Westerns are vegetarians certainly Atheism, Agnosticism and Deism have a connection with it.
Let me counter you in a religious discourse
There is difference between human acquired Knowledge and natural knowledge given to humans.
We feel the pain, resistance and cries of animals when we butcher them while we cannot feel these things in plants
Animals are given the powers to communicate their pain, cries and resistance to us but not the plants
Human beings are responsible to use or abuse these senses . If these senses are given by God then be sure God made plants for us to eat not animals .
I am not an atheist. But I understand the intricacies of one and also the weakness of theists. What you ask is a philosophical question. Its not scientific. However, I can say you can goto his Tomb and dig up his grave. This may give you proof of a human buried there. But how can we prove this grave is Akbar's? Then we need to follow historical accounts and records. Even then it may not be possible to 100% prove this indeed is Akbar, but the corroborations and historical record may lend a high probability.
It's like the case of the Pharoahs that are being discovered today. Some had a recorded description of a deformity and therefore it was easy to put 2 and 2 together and say this is the guy. That assertion would have a high probability.
Well then. Now you know that no 2 people read a book the same way. ;) Which is actually true. Unless its a mathematical "proof". To me its as clear as day. To you its something else. And you want your version to be "The Law" of the Land. How can we reconcile? ;)
I am not refuting your version of it. I am just saying that I read it different and I don't see "evidence" here. I see a comparative example. The vastness of the deep sea is well recorded in Greek literature and even norse mythology. It wasn't a big secret in 600 AD.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Read the verse again and again. The Holy Quran is using a similie, a likeness.
The YouTube video is showing how did the Holy Quran know that there is a wave over another wave in sea when this is a fact unknown to arabs?
Even i didn't know that oceans have internal waves
I don't know what is your problem with it? But then again like i said i can bring proof after prooofs and you can dismiss them.
It is truly amazing that even in the face of undeniable proof, atheists can't see and can't think. Wallahi, it reminds me of quranic verses that disbelievers are blind and lack logic.
This verse isn't even a matter of faith. It is telling you what a sea is like.
Liberal 000
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Those who say there is God have no proof and those who say their is no God also have no proof
If God born out of nothing then what was before nothing? No human brain and any book on earth have given any answer
If God exists then what is his purpose of existence? Human brain and no book on earth have given this answer
All the books on earth only describe those things which a simple human mind can think nothing beyond that
This discussion is useless
What we should be discussing is how can we make our existence a better existence to exist on earth!
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Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Holy Quran and this universe and our existence is proof of God. An atheist is the last person who can tell us how we can make our existence better.
Liberal 000
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Even Hindus also claim all these miracles from Vedas. I am not going to give you vedic examples because you would say may be Veda is also from God
Sikh holy book says there are a lot of suns . Now tell me how the Punjabis know there are more suns than the only sun we see with our naked eyes
I know it will be difficult for you to accept that Sikh holy book is also from God!
Its not telling you what the sea is like; its telling you what is the state of the disbeliever. That my friend is its message. And the Arabs knew of the sea because the Greeks knew of the sea. But if we assume like you are saying that the arabs had no knowledge of the sea, then they'd probably not understand this verse either like you did. ;)
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Dude the verse doesn't talk about vastness of sea. Are you blind or something like literally?
This is the translation of Sahih International
Or [they are] like darknesses within an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds - darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.
unfathomable sea means vast sea sure.
which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds
Seriously, are you blind? It literally says that.. Let me bold it so you don't need glasses to see it
waves, upon which are waves
It is truly mind boggling how human mind can refuse things if it wants to.
Nobody knew that sea had internal waves. My God, how dumb are you? The video literally tells you that this fact wasn't known to mankind.
As for your history comment, isn't it interesting that when it comes to everything else history is sufficient proof for you but when it comes to Islam and religion, you deny everything.
Did you know the Holy Quran mention of the Pharaoh was exactly like they found it in recent history? How did the Holy Quran knew about Pharaoh body or was it known to Greeks today?
This is NOT a matter of blind faith dude. This is undeniably physical proof.
Do you have any idea what happens to a body in sea? Holy Quran said Pharaoh body will be saved as a Sign for people and Lo and Behold his body is still preserved and it's a medical mystery how. The researcher who wasn't even Muslim when he found SHOUTED that there is Allah when he found it.
How many proofs more do you want because this isn't even the start of the Quranic miracles.
Liberal 000
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It existence is a proof of God then what is a proof of the existence of God. If these things have creator called God then who is the creator of God?
If God came out of nothing then where he was before nothing? Who created nothingness?
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
There are mentions of Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) in Hindu books. Our belief in Islam is that Allah didn't let humanity misguided instead sent guidance in the form of Prophets and some nations books and those Prophets and books were for a certain time and nations and were corrupted until Holy Quran which is for all humanity and is preserved.
What's even amazing the Holy Quran isn't a book of science, in fact Holy Quran gives a challenge that nobody has defeated that proves it. But we are now finding the miraculous realities in it.
There isn't a single contradiction in Holy Quran whereas in every other religion there are huge contradictions because a man made or corrupted book will have discrapancies.
