I think religion has its uses. For example if religion gives a man a positive frame of mind; it helps with the survival of the species. It becomes irrelevant if its fantasy or actual truth. And history has shown religion is an excellent form of control. So it has its strengths and it has its weaknesses. I am not biased or against it, I can demonstrate both sides of the story. The problem is that believers in religion don't like probing inquiries and try to make their religion jump scientific hoops. Science is an unforgiving field. It questions everything. It lives and breathes on people questioning it - because it gets better everytime someone disproves it. Religion is not like that. People should keep it in the realms of philosophy and they will see its much easier to demonstrate the strength's of religion if its handled better than what they are attempting to do.
The stupidity that is atheism
- Thread starter Steyn
- Start date
SUPER SHAHEEN
Senator (1k+ posts)
Come on man, it's all drama and god is an imaginary character but if you want to give different shades and dimensions to those made up theories and character then good luck,I ain't going to follow,backward and made up Stone Age stories especially barbaric theory like Islam just beacuse it has some benefits. The benefits you mentioned.modern world,science and atheism have more of those benefits than any religion in the world. I am done with Islam and other religions since the age of 20,I am a proud ex Muslim and it was the best decision of my life,it made me very happy and more wiser.
Good for you brother. If it makes you happy and you feel you are wiser then more power to you. But if it made you think that these others who believe in a Higher power are stupid, then I am afraid its bad for you. A balanced perspective would be to give respect to these people who have beliefs and obviously respect those who do not have belief.
There are benefits to religion as I mentioned. The human brain is a remarkable organ but it operates on physical elements. The thoughts that are coming in your mind right this very instant are not by magic; they are based off complex chemical reactions and prior conditioning. This conditioning is exactly what I am alluding to when I say that Religion has its uses. A Positive mindset is useful for the human race. Now you may not feel the need for religion to get in this zone; that's good for you. Others need it. So respect the pros and cons of all sides. Nobody here is an idiot. :)
I suspect you are letting your prior engagements with these folks cloud your better judgement. Try to be unbiased and humble.
SUPER SHAHEEN
Senator (1k+ posts)
Nah bro my decision is totally based on my own thoughts and experiences and it has nothing to do with any individual or class. I left Islam in 1991 at the time when I found it very backward,violent and shallow. Islam can only make you narrow minded,confused and thick as you get older.Its unfortunate that even in 21st century,something as rediculous as religion that rely on superstitious,dogma and fear than reason,evidence and logic is reserved by majority.Good luck to you.
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Alright let's say my assumption that Neanderthals must wear clothes to keep warm is false. How did they survive without clothes? Care to take a guess? I welcome a better explanation. Science loves a proper argument to beat its accepted norms. :)[/QUOTE]
Now that is called logical thinking my friend. When you do not have an evidence you try to use your brain i mean your logic. Problem is that when we come up with a logic you go back to the line of evidence. There is a serious flaw in your thinking. Try to understand this here that you have to define what an evidence is for you and what is a logic. When will you need a evindence to believe in somthing and when can the logic be enough to make a belief ?
Regarding how Neanderthals survived in cold weather, if i say they had 3 pieces suits and leather jackets, blankets etc will you believe or you would ask for an evidence ? Again you will not get an evidence but will use your brain or logic to understand this. Untill you can find out with evidence that your cousins Neaderthals had used clothing as Humans used you have no ground to negate my claim of its exclusiveness to humans as mentioned in Quran.
Also try read it further that cloths were used by humans long before they migrated to north or EU or cold areas. Now question is for you my friend. How come cloths been used by humans even before going uphills to EU when there were no cold weathers in africa, to trigger a thought in human mind to start making cloths ? While Neanderthals were in EU waiting for humans for 1000s of years to come over in mass migration and teach them how to make a leather shawl ? Also try find out if only shawl was enough for neanderthals to survive n ice age ? As there is nothing evident they were ever capable of making anything better then that, even that is only a claim by scientist using only assumptions but no evidence.
cheers
Hope you get the point and will spend some time to read it through in more detail.
Now that is called logical thinking my friend. When you do not have an evidence you try to use your brain i mean your logic. Problem is that when we come up with a logic you go back to the line of evidence. There is a serious flaw in your thinking. Try to understand this here that you have to define what an evidence is for you and what is a logic. When will you need a evindence to believe in somthing and when can the logic be enough to make a belief ?
Regarding how Neanderthals survived in cold weather, if i say they had 3 pieces suits and leather jackets, blankets etc will you believe or you would ask for an evidence ? Again you will not get an evidence but will use your brain or logic to understand this. Untill you can find out with evidence that your cousins Neaderthals had used clothing as Humans used you have no ground to negate my claim of its exclusiveness to humans as mentioned in Quran.
Also try read it further that cloths were used by humans long before they migrated to north or EU or cold areas. Now question is for you my friend. How come cloths been used by humans even before going uphills to EU when there were no cold weathers in africa, to trigger a thought in human mind to start making cloths ? While Neanderthals were in EU waiting for humans for 1000s of years to come over in mass migration and teach them how to make a leather shawl ? Also try find out if only shawl was enough for neanderthals to survive n ice age ? As there is nothing evident they were ever capable of making anything better then that, even that is only a claim by scientist using only assumptions but no evidence.
cheers
Hope you get the point and will spend some time to read it through in more detail.
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You have another problem now. you are mixing up guidance to the scientific facts in Quran. That is why i say you are totally on a wrong track of thinking. Quran is guidance for all times for all humans. But the signs are totally different thing. Signs it has may not be understood until humans have sufficient knowledge to understand that. But for guidance in your life (how to live like a good human being) you do'nt need to know if sea has wavy layers do you ??? It is so simple my friend to understand but if you fail to get this really i can't help you either.
The signs being revealed to Humans in Quran with time further proves that with progress of human knowledge and development of more understanding Quran continues to surprise us with its wonders. Layers of waves in Quranic verses is undeniable and so far not a single scientific evidence has been produced by you and your friend atheists to counter the fact, how come it is revealed in Quran 1400 years ago. Why do you not simply accept it as a fact and try not to disprove when you have no solid basis to do that.
Further i should explain that when i say guidance for all times, it certainly means guidance in belief and how to live a life as a good human being. The principles Quran has mentioned are universal and for all times. But that has nothing to do with the scientific facts or signs. Lets not confuse yourself and try have a clear concept what a guidance is and what is a sign in Quran.
I don't subscribe to the business of signs or Prophecies. We are human beings and we have a propensity to seeing patterns even where they don't exist. I know myself as a Human being I am susceptible to this weakness. Therefore I don't think of signs as signs but as probabilities. Is the Quran talking about the nature of currents in the Sea in this Ayah? Possibly yes. But probably no if you go by the context of what it is actually talking about. Here is where we disagree. I give leeway to possibility but my judgement is based on probability. And my explanation is the most simplest one. It does not require any discovery to understand, its pretty much straightforward. Therefore it has a Higher probability. Read the other translations as well. They lend credence to the probability that its NOT talking about undercurrents or layers of currents in the sea.
You never doubt yourself that perhaps you are reading what you want to read? Know your weaknesses and then keep them in check. You know what they say, Knowing is half the battle. :)
Why don't you just share the Arabic verse and then the translations so we can see if there is a context any different than what i am stating. Lets share it here. I will wait for your text then.
At least you seem to understand the difference between Guidance for all time and a sign in Quran. Thank you for that :)
By the way this what Mr Liberal posted. All translations together. Let see if there is any one of these where there is another comparison with out meaning of wave upon wave in the deep vast sea.
If there is any evidence that deep sea had layers of waves before 1400 years please share. I will be happy to entertain then. See now
Sahih International: Or [they are] like darknesses within an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds - darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.
Pickthall: Or as darkness on a vast, abysmal sea. There covereth him a wave, above which is a wave, above which is a cloud. Layer upon layer of darkness. When he holdeth out his hand he scarce can see it. And he for whom Allah hath not appointed light, for him there is no light.
Yusuf Ali: Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
Shakir: Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there covers it a wave above which is another wave, above which is a cloud, (layers of) utter darkness one above another; when he holds out his hand, he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever Allah does not give light, he has no light.
Muhammad Sarwar: Or it (the deeds of the unbelievers) are like the darkness of a deep, stormy sea with layers of giant waves, covered by dark clouds. It is darkness upon darkness whereby even if one stretches out his hands he can not see them. One can have no light unless God gives him light.
Mohsin Khan: Or [the state of a disbeliever] is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.
Arberry: or they are as shadows upon a sea obscure covered by a billow above which is a billow above which are clouds, shadows piled one upon another; when he puts forth his hand, wellnigh he cannot see it. And to whomsoever God assigns no light, no light has he
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I understand a lot of things and I am a very flexible person. I accommodate as much as possible. Most of the time I am not trying to prove you are wrong, I am just trying to show you a different way of looking at the same thing. This will open your mind to vast possibilities.
I have linked the supposed Ayah for your perusal.
https://quran.com/24/40?translations=32,42,101,22,18,19,84,20,21,17,95,85
I thought you could share it. Anyways i am also not trying to impose anything but rather challenging you in your ways of thinking. It will not be rational to brush aside certain facts which do prove a point when we talk about signs in Quran. Rather you should counter it with contrary evidence if you have and not present a weak argument of its interpretations in old tafseers or translations. You should rather focus on the very text and what it implicates. Forget about what is understood in the past about these scientific facts. These remain facts if not understood in the past, that does not disprove it as it still remains a fact. You can question the knowledge of the people of old times but not the very text itself.
I have just edited my previous post and shared all translations there. If you have any issue with the context let me know. thanks
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
It's amazing that you jumped to a conclusion about religion from the actions of few murderers. If this is how you base your beliefs then you should kill yourself right now because humanity has committed so many atrocities and still do, by your definition all humanity is stupid, murderers and up to no good.
Stone age was way way before Islam. You don't even know this basic knowledge.
Say fantasy stories a few more times and you will become believable. Say it a few more times, you haven't said it enough times. I will do it for you - fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy fantasy i think i people will believe me now
Who's the moron here? Hehee
SUPER SHAHEEN
Senator (1k+ posts)
Ha ha ha just to inform you,i left religion in 1991 so do not give me craps of few murderers,religion is just waste of brains and time. You follow it,good for you but if you attack us atheists then get ready plenty to come,do not be offended. By uploading this video and showing these innocent Europeans does not mean you dealt with all the great atheists in the world. If you debate with intelligent atheist scholars then you will not find place to hide in your ignorant world.So just shut up and do not act like some super creature,you are just a bloody dumb person who is not mote a sheep.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Problem is you're calling me a moron because of your own ignorance of religion. Just because you might be a Muslim doesn't make you an authority on Islam and definitely not on me or the billions of Muslims.
You need to understand the difference between opinions and facts. This is how serial killers are born btw. Hitler considered all Jews bad and he considered it a fact. I hope you don't go and murder Muslims, you've scared me because you make the text red when talking to me and it's scary.
The fact that you think an atheist of high calibre will defend your non beliefs better show your own ignorance doesn't it?. You admit to not knowing anything and blindly believing what you've heard or seen on TV from others. What does that make you? Not to mention your atheists "scholars" have never had much luck in debates and none even rebuts the challenges and miracles of Holy Quran, some even become agnostic. Want me to link a few?
I don't know why you are so offensive towards me and insulting me out of nowhere. I don't appreciate it, just because i am following beliefs different than yours.
I am done arguing with you, you say how Muslims are violent and barbaric but go and attack me going full barbaric on me making your text red as some sort of psychological tactic.
I have made my point anyway. You're insulting me and calling me names, i can say Atheism is barbaric and you would be a proof in this immediate space.
SUPER SHAHEEN
Senator (1k+ posts)
Come on give me a break you hypocrite cunt,you are bashing atheists and atheism left right centre even your thread is about bashing atheism yet you are playing like a victim,hypocricy at its best.
One big advice for you " Respect other beliefs and thoughts including atheism just the way you like to be respected as a Muslim. " if you start bashing others and try to prove them wrong then be ready beacuse your Stone age theory and made up fantasy theory has many flaws and issues. Last but not the least REMEMBER THE ADVISE WHICH I GAVE YOU " Respect others beliefs and way of life.
Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Be ready for what? You're resorting to threats now?
You sound like a very stupid immature person if this is how you behave in your life.
It seems like you've some deep rooted issues that's making you this angry and violent. Sort them out man. It doesn't seem like whatever you're believing or not believing in is making you happy at all
I haven't seen anyone act like you are before. Nobody has threatened me before lol except little kids in battlefied and cod games
SUPER SHAHEEN
Senator (1k+ posts)
When i put you in your shit place,you started crying like a baby. You asshole you need to come out of your psychological disorder (superiority complex)which all the religious people have it. There is more to life then your stone age theory. Stop treating people as if you are better than them,you shameless gay : ) : )
I have studied prophecies and predictions all my life. Not just religious ones, but done by many people. A good example was nostradamus's predictions. There are many famous predictions of his which many claim to be true. But the weakness of prophecies are that they are time bound and they are ambiguous. Nostradamus had the art down to a science. His technique was that history has a pattern of repeating itself. Therefore he had repetitious tones in his predictions of the future.
The Japanese bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the twin towers and the rise of Hitler. These are all attributed to Nostradamus. What does this mean? Did he have ilam al ghaib? A better explanation would be that he simply wasn't talking about what people are thinking he is attributing to. I know the seduction of ilam al ghaib is intoxicating, but the real world doesn't work that way. There are no cheat codes. There are far better ways to convince human beings of a God than to just show signs and prophecies.
If I were to give a 'Sign' to you, I would give you specifics. I would be more thorough than just saying, A disbeliever is like a man drowning in a vast deep sea in darkness with a wave upon wave on top of him. UNLESS, this wasn't a sign at all. The "FACT" in this entire ayah is not scientific or the waves; its that the disbeliever is the one in the wrong. It was displayed eloquently with the example of the pitch blackness of the deep sea. You are looking for signs where Allah didn't even intend to give one. The core strength of any religious text is not in specifics, but in pointing you in the right direction. You cannot perform a marriage of science and quran. That's sacrilege. That's opening the Quran up to being dissected, because science does not care about sentiments or emotions or respect. It is what it is. I understand that if indeed this were Scientific Fact then it reaffirms your faith in the Quran being divine and having foreknowledge, I know this seduction well. But my friend there are no real shortcuts in this life. You want Imaan in Allah and His message then you will need to conjure it up without the help of science.
You do not have to think like I am thinking. You can continue to believe this is scientific fact, although my advise to you is to not profess this as such to someone who is more factual and meticulous in dissection of scientific facts. Because you would not be successful. One must always be wise enough to pick and choose their battles.
The Japanese bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the twin towers and the rise of Hitler. These are all attributed to Nostradamus. What does this mean? Did he have ilam al ghaib? A better explanation would be that he simply wasn't talking about what people are thinking he is attributing to. I know the seduction of ilam al ghaib is intoxicating, but the real world doesn't work that way. There are no cheat codes. There are far better ways to convince human beings of a God than to just show signs and prophecies.
If I were to give a 'Sign' to you, I would give you specifics. I would be more thorough than just saying, A disbeliever is like a man drowning in a vast deep sea in darkness with a wave upon wave on top of him. UNLESS, this wasn't a sign at all. The "FACT" in this entire ayah is not scientific or the waves; its that the disbeliever is the one in the wrong. It was displayed eloquently with the example of the pitch blackness of the deep sea. You are looking for signs where Allah didn't even intend to give one. The core strength of any religious text is not in specifics, but in pointing you in the right direction. You cannot perform a marriage of science and quran. That's sacrilege. That's opening the Quran up to being dissected, because science does not care about sentiments or emotions or respect. It is what it is. I understand that if indeed this were Scientific Fact then it reaffirms your faith in the Quran being divine and having foreknowledge, I know this seduction well. But my friend there are no real shortcuts in this life. You want Imaan in Allah and His message then you will need to conjure it up without the help of science.
You do not have to think like I am thinking. You can continue to believe this is scientific fact, although my advise to you is to not profess this as such to someone who is more factual and meticulous in dissection of scientific facts. Because you would not be successful. One must always be wise enough to pick and choose their battles.
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You do not have to think like I am thinking. You can continue to believe this is scientific fact, although my advise to you is to not profess this as such to someone who is more factual and meticulous in dissection of scientific facts. Because you would not be successful. One must always be wise enough to pick and choose their battles.[/QUOTE]
There is yet another problem my friend. Previuosly you mixed up book of guidance & signs and now you are mixing up prophecies and scientific facts. How can i address all this every time. Plz don't do that.
Cut the story short. ALLAH compares non believer who is in darkness of ignorance to deep see darkness. Why is it so difficult for you to realize that this could have compared with darkness at night ? Why can't you see there is a specific comparison to deep sea ? Its deep darkness is a fact and then it has wave upon waves which is another proven fact. Problem is with your way of thinking. You just fail to appreciate a clear sign. A clear statement which no one would make 1400 tears back. You think Nabi SAW would compare a non believer living in darkness to the darkness of deep sea, which he never traveled upon nor he dived in that deep sea and come back. Or when he compares with deep sea darkness he would also had to mention waves upon waves ? Come on man. Whats wrong with you. This is not prophecy. This is not prediction. This was a fact stated in Quran and even Prophets SAW n his companions would'nt have known this.
You see when you don't want to believe in something you will always find reasons to do that. But my friend that will never change a fact. It is there and it will never disappear.
Regarding use of cloths exclusively by Humans, i suggest you should continue to follow the research. If you ever find any evidence against what is stated in Quran, email me then .... [email protected]:)
I will repeat it once more. Quran specifically mentions about few characteristics of Bani Adam (You may call them modern humans or Homosapiens).
1) Intellect
2) Language
3) Clothing
4) Burial
I have mentioned earlier that ALLAH has used words Anzalna Libasa .... Word Anzalna suggests its divine nature. Humans have been divinely inspired to put on cloths n cover up their private parts. Quran mentions 2 uses of clothing, covering private parts and tazeen o araish (urdu has better phrase). All the evidence so far proves it to be true. Clothing was exclusive to Bani Adam or homo sapiens, it started well before migration to cold areas. It was never a feature of any other species. Your argument about Neanderthals holds no ground and there is no evidence to support that either. Neanderthals were in cold areas 100s of centuries before with out cloths. There are many flaws in your argument which i already mention n you never responded. I wont insist either.
My humble request is listen to what i said, do some more research and study it in an academic way with open heart n mind. Na Qila men ne fatah kerna hay na aap ne.
There is more to say on language n burial but i have given you a food for thought already. We are not yet done with clothing i guess. By the way i am a doctor by profession and have developed some sense of science after studying for so many years my friend. Cheers
There is yet another problem my friend. Previuosly you mixed up book of guidance & signs and now you are mixing up prophecies and scientific facts. How can i address all this every time. Plz don't do that.
Cut the story short. ALLAH compares non believer who is in darkness of ignorance to deep see darkness. Why is it so difficult for you to realize that this could have compared with darkness at night ? Why can't you see there is a specific comparison to deep sea ? Its deep darkness is a fact and then it has wave upon waves which is another proven fact. Problem is with your way of thinking. You just fail to appreciate a clear sign. A clear statement which no one would make 1400 tears back. You think Nabi SAW would compare a non believer living in darkness to the darkness of deep sea, which he never traveled upon nor he dived in that deep sea and come back. Or when he compares with deep sea darkness he would also had to mention waves upon waves ? Come on man. Whats wrong with you. This is not prophecy. This is not prediction. This was a fact stated in Quran and even Prophets SAW n his companions would'nt have known this.
You see when you don't want to believe in something you will always find reasons to do that. But my friend that will never change a fact. It is there and it will never disappear.
Regarding use of cloths exclusively by Humans, i suggest you should continue to follow the research. If you ever find any evidence against what is stated in Quran, email me then .... [email protected]:)
I will repeat it once more. Quran specifically mentions about few characteristics of Bani Adam (You may call them modern humans or Homosapiens).
1) Intellect
2) Language
3) Clothing
4) Burial
I have mentioned earlier that ALLAH has used words Anzalna Libasa .... Word Anzalna suggests its divine nature. Humans have been divinely inspired to put on cloths n cover up their private parts. Quran mentions 2 uses of clothing, covering private parts and tazeen o araish (urdu has better phrase). All the evidence so far proves it to be true. Clothing was exclusive to Bani Adam or homo sapiens, it started well before migration to cold areas. It was never a feature of any other species. Your argument about Neanderthals holds no ground and there is no evidence to support that either. Neanderthals were in cold areas 100s of centuries before with out cloths. There are many flaws in your argument which i already mention n you never responded. I wont insist either.
My humble request is listen to what i said, do some more research and study it in an academic way with open heart n mind. Na Qila men ne fatah kerna hay na aap ne.
There is more to say on language n burial but i have given you a food for thought already. We are not yet done with clothing i guess. By the way i am a doctor by profession and have developed some sense of science after studying for so many years my friend. Cheers
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Steyn
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Oh wow, you're comparing the predictions of Nostradamus with the clear Quranic verse about sea waves. This is hilarious hahaha.
Nostradamus plagiarised the Bible and was inspired from the ancient texts and history. You make like 900+ vague predictions, don't you think you can consider few to be true based on their vagueness lol.
Here's my prediction completely based on bullshit - humans will cure most causes of death. They will conquer the skies. There will be a major disaster that will change the face of humanity. Bla bla. This is the same tactic psychics use, throw a million misses and one hit and people will remember the hit only. You're giving too much credit to Nostradamus, he's not credited with those and even his supporters argue with each other on his the same prediction
I see you've been watching Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, that's his argument. Why look at Quran scientifically, just do blind belief
