Standing for national anthem is shirk

[Raaz]

Mera bhai, I think you are missing the point here. Holding and protecting a flag in war is one thing, saluting it and standing in its honor (which is not done in war like situations) is entirely another. Same goes for the national anthem. And the flag you are talking about was the flag of Muslims not a specific country, the flag used to identify the presence of Muslims in the field of battle.

Bhai what do u think that Hazrat Jafar Tayyar got Shahadah is waste...

And he did not stood for it....

When u rise up your flag , definitely Islamic , is same as u protect Islam....

If u rise up for US or Brihish flag that is different.....

The respect of flag is important....because it is symbol of Islamic state....

The other situation is dont respect your country , your flag and anthem...

This not Bande MAtram anthem...Muslims protested against that but our Anthem is not against Islamic values...

 

[Raaz]

Thats why this JI was against Pakistan , Because they dont know the Hurmat of Islamic country...

They dont know the deen of Rasool e Pak ....

Rasool e Pak pbuh loved the Islamic state and united....... a muslim community....with all decorum of state , but for Allah and peace for peolpe.

He did not preach for individual Muslim .... he worked for united Islamic country , where every one could live in peace according to Islam .....

 

[SaadKnight]

Bhai what do u think that Hazrat Jafar Tayyar got Shahadah is waste...

And he did not stood for it....

When u rise up your flag , definitely Islamic , is same as u protect Islam....If u rise up for US or Brihish flag that is different.....The respect of flag is important....because it is symbol of Islamic state....

The other situation is dont respect your country , your flag and anthem...

This not Bande MAtram anthem...Muslims protested against that but our Anthem is not against Islamic values...

No

Agreed partially, flag in the battle field is also for holding lines as well as morale.
But do ask yourself do we do what you described when ever we raise it in Pakistan?

Could not understand what you wanted to say.

An Islamic state would be where all the Muslims live together regardless of their nationalities, by this definition is our Pakistani flag a symbol for Islamic state? What and where is Islam in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?
You just said yourself Black flag was the symbol for the Muslims, does any Islamic state use black flag alone to represent themselves as muslims? Obviously no. Muslims today are divided into nationalities, we are not one ummat hence not one flag. Different flags in the muslim ummah represent different nationalities, not Islam.

Our anthem glorifies Pakistan and Pakistaniat not our deen, hence nationalism right?

 

[Raaz]

U r always right , dont respect your Islamic country and its belongings...It is Kufar.....

Salam ho

 

[umairel]

It is very clear from Qur'aan and Hadeeth that SHIRK is worst of all sins. It is also very clear that there is no forgiveness from this sin. Shouldn't we be very careful to avoid any kind of activity even there a slight doubt that this act may lead to SHIRK. For example, prostrating (سجدہ) the grave, even "ta'azimi" (تعظیمی) has been declared by majority of Ulema as SHIRK. Tell me why would a Muslim take risk of committing SHIRK if that Sijda may lead him to hell??? On the other hand, doing Sijda (سجدہ) to a grave is not a requirement to be successful in Aakhirat (آخرت).

Message learned: Dr. Israr Ahmed were so afraid of doing any act where there is slight doubt that it may be termed as SHIRK in the Aakhirat (آخرت).

Just think about it ....neutrally....

May Allah Give Hidayat to all of us.

you r right brother. although sajda e tazeemi is not shirk, yet it is haram and gunah e kabeera and forbidden in islam. it was allowed in previos shariats like brothers and parents do it for Hazrat Yousuf(as). But we have to avoid all things which even resmbles doing shirk

 

[cefspan]

Care to explain what and where is the Islamic life style in Pakistanis?

Its theoretically , IDEOLOGICALLY I meant.!;)

 

[Cheeko]

Care to explain what and where is the Islamic life style in Pakistanis?

Care to explain why one has to listen to national anthem while sitting when the country has nothing to do with Islam? Care to explain why listen to a national anthem which is musical when music is prohibited according to Israr?

 

[SaadKnight]

Its theoretically , IDEOLOGICALLY I meant.!;)

:lol: OK. I agree here's another one for you:
Is the the theory and the ideology same as it was when Pakistan came into being or do you feel it being changed? (serious)

 

[SaadKnight]

Care to explain why one has to listen to national anthem while sitting when the country has nothing to do with Islam? Care to explain why listen to a national anthem which is musical when music is prohibited according to Israr?

Please do not mistake me for being a liberal or secular etc etc etc, I am non of those bullies. And please do expand your question, I am unable to understand.

 

[Cheeko]

you know HAZOOR PAKpbuh nay suhaba ko is kaam se mana fermaya tha? ye kharay ho ker respect shispect local tahzeeb to ho sakti ha per Mohammadi tehzeeb nhi

Adding more to what I have said in one of my previous comments.

The following discussion on the subject of standing out of respect is taken from Imam Nawawi's (rahmat allahi 'alaih) al-Tarkhis, as well as his Sharh Sahih Muslim (Commentary of Sahih Muslim), and Sharh Shamaa'il Tirmidhi (Commentary of Tirmidhi Shareef) by Moulvi Zakariyya Khandhalawi.

1. Anas (radi allahu 'anhu) said that none was dearer to them than Allah's Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam), and they would not stand up when they saw him due to their knowledge that he disliked it. Tirmidhi said it is hasan sahih (fair and sound).
MOULVI ZAKARIYYA'S COMMENTARY :
This Hadith is indicative of the high degree of humbleness of Rasoolullah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam). Rasoolullah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) did not like (the people to stand for him), although he is the possessor of high glory and is the master of both the worlds. Therefore, the Sahaba sometimes did not stand due to love, because Rasoolullah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) disliked it, as is required in this narration (of Hadhrat Anas) and sometimes they would stand due to the demand of love.

It is stated in "Abu Dawood" that, "Rasoolullah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) used to talk to us in the masjid. When Rasoolullah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) stood, we would stand up and we would remain standing till Rasoolullah (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam entered the home". (Sharh Shamaa'il-i-Tirmidhi, page 342, Maktaba Rahmania, Lahore)
[Moulvi Zakariyya explains the reason for not standing],

"Qadi 'Iyad (rahmatullahi 'alaih) says that, 'Qiyaam is prohibited whereby somebody well known is sitting and the rest of the people are standing. Therefore, in the Hadith of prohibition (of Qiyaam), it is also said, 'Do not stand as the Ajamees (non-arabs/foreigners) stand for their chiefs'".

[Moulvi Zakariyya writes further] : "Imam Nawawi says that it is Mustahab to stand for 'Ulama, respectful and noble people". (Sharh Shamaa'il-i-Tirmidhi, Page 342)


2. Abu Mijlaz (radi allahu 'anhu) said: Mu’awiya went out to meet Ibn al-Zubayr and Ibn `Amir. The latter stood up while the former remained seated. Mu’awiya said to Ibn `Amir: "Sit, for I heard the Prophet say: "Whoever likes for men to stand up for him let him take his place in the fire." Tirmidhi's version mentions Ibn al-Zubayr and Safwan, and both get up. Abu Dawud narrated it (Adab 4:385), also Tirmidhi (Adab 5:90 #44) who said: hasan (fair) and Ahmad (4:94, 100).

IMAM NAWAWI'S (RAHMAT ALLAHI 'ALAIH) COMMENTARY:
Most people in disfavour of standing are fond of quoting this Hadith. It is answered in many ways,
1. The soundest and best -- nay, the one answer which makes all others superfluous is that there is no proof against standing up in this Hadith. Its plain, outward meaning is the explicit condemnation and HARSH THREAT AGAINST ANY MAN WHO LIKES PEOPLE TO GET UP FOR HIM. There is neither prohibition nor other than prohibition concerning standing itself, and there is agreement about this... The gravity of the condemnation is in what takes place inside the mind of the person who likes people to stand for him. If there is no such thing in his mind there is no blame on him -- all this whether they get up or not... The prohibition revolves around the love of adulation not the act of standing. Therefore there is no proof in this Hadith against the permissibility of standing.


2. Another answer is that the Hadith is mudtarib (disordered -- many incompatible narrations) according to the two Imams of Hadith, Abu Bakr ibn Abi `Asim and Abu Musa al-Asbahani (may Allah be pleased with them), and this is a necessary cause for the weakness of the Hadith. However, this answer is open to question since both Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud have graded the Hadith fair (hasan) and have spoken concerning it. Moreover, the disparity does not result in a disorder of the kind that makes it necessarily weak, and Allah knows best. [NB: Observe the honesty of Imam Nawawi (rahmat allahi 'alaih) in defending what weakens his position.]


3. The sayings of the Imams and Luminaries concerning whose eminence there is unanimity among the people of intellect and discernment: Abu Nasr Bishr ibn al-Harith al-Hafi al-Zahid, Abu Sulayman Hamd ibn Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Khattabi, Abu Muhammad al-Husayn ibn Mas`ud al-Baghawi, and Abu Musa Muhammad ibn `Umar al-Asbahani the Hafiz, may Allah be well pleased with all of them: [after quoting the isnad] Ahmad ibn al-Mughlis said: Abu Nasr ibn al-Harith said, after I mentioned this Hadith in front of him: "He only disliked the standing from the perspective of arrogance, but from the perspective of sincere love, he did not, since he himself stood up for `Ikrima ibn Abu Jahl... and he said: "Stand for your chief," and he said: "He who likes people to stand for him..." indicating that whoever likes people to stand for him, you must not stand for him." As for Baghawi and Khattabi (may Allah be pleased with them) as we mentioned with our isnad they spoke to the effect that the Hadith concerns only those who order others from the perspective of pride and arrogance. Abu Musa (rahmat allahi 'alaih) said: "The meaning of the Hadith is those who make men stand around them like courtiers stand around kings."


3. From Abu Amama (radi allahu 'anhu): The Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) came out leaning on a stick and we rose up for him. He said: "Do not get up in the manner of the foreigners who aggrandize (flatter) each other." Abu Dawud narrated it (Adab - 4:358). Ibn Majah's version (Du`a #34, 2:1261): "Do not do as the Persians do with their great ones."

IMAM NAWAWI'S (RAHMAT ALLAHI 'ALAIH) COMMENTARY:
The answer is in two beautiful ways:
1. The two Imams, Abu Bakr ibn Abi `Asim and Abu Musa al-Asbahani (may Allah be pleased with them),said that this is a weak Hadith which cannot be used as a proof. Abu Bakr (rahmat allahi 'alaih) said: "This Hadith cannot be established and its sub-narrators are unknown." I say: to this is added the fact that it is "mudtarib" (disordered -- see above), and it would suffice that only one of these two factors were present to grade it as weak, let alone two.

2. The Hadith in itself is crystal-clear as to its intent as opposed to that of the rest: namely, it PURPORTS TO CONDEMN THOSE WHO STAND FOR THE PURPOSE OF AGGRANDIZEMENT. That is why he said: "Do not get up in the manner of the foreigners who aggrandize each others." There is no doubt as to what is being condemned. And Allah knows best.


Our comments: The emphasis of this Hadith is in the words, "in the manner of the foreigners who aggrandize (flatter) each other". If the directive of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) was to forbid standing (Qiyaam), the words "Do not get up !" would have sufficed. There would have been no reason to qualify the statement with the words, "... in the manner of the foreigners who aggrandize (flatter) each other". The disbelieving foreigners (especially the Persians) would stand up for their undeserving kings and leaders in order to flatter their ego. It is this that the above Hadith condemns.

4. From (Nafi`) Abu Bakra (radi allahu 'anhu): The Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) said: "Let no man stand from his seat for another." Abu Musa al-Isbahani narrated it with his chain. Al-Hafiz Abu al-Qasim Ibn `Asakir said in his book al-Atraf that Abu Dawud narrated in the book of Adab (4:258). The chain has Abu `Abd Allah Mawla Al Abi Burda, who is unknown. See al-Taqrib #8215.
IMAM NAWAWI'S (RAHMAT ALLAHI 'ALAIH) COMMENTARY:
The answer to this is the same two answers as the preceding section... There is possibly a third way to answer it reasonably. The meaning would be: "Do not get up from the place of prayer, of listening to a sermon and to remembrance and knowledge etc., for it is disliked that one should give up one's seat in such cases, or leave it and take another farther away from the Imam.

The same is true of all gestures that are similar to these, and we consider this to muster the general agreement of scholars, as opposed to giving up one's food and drink other things related to one's personal lot: to give those up is a most desirable thing, one of the marks of the righteous and among the manners of saints and gnostics, concerning which this verse was revealed: "They prefer others above themselves though poverty become their lot" (59:9).
The difference between the two types of sacrifice is that the right, in the person's nearness, belongs to Allah the Exalted, and to transfer it is not permissible, as opposed to food and the like where the right belongs to the person, although in some cases it belongs to Allah even then...


Our Comments : This Hadith has nothing to do with standing out of respect (Qiyaam). Below is the Hadith in question that is often quoted : Sa'id bin Abi al-Hasan said : When Abu Bakrah came to us to give some evidence, a man got up from his place, but he refused to sit in it saying: The Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam) forbade this, ... (Sunan Abu Dawood, Pg 1349, Volume 3, # 4809). As it is seen this Hadith has nothing to do with the subject matter. It is concerned with giving your seat to another person.

 

[Cheeko]

Please do not mistake me for being a liberal or secular etc etc etc, I am non of those bullies. And please do expand your question, I am unable to understand.

All I am saying is why does Israr have to listen to national anthem while sitting when the country has nothing to do with Islam? Care to explain why Israr has to listen to a national anthem which is musical when music is prohibited according to Israr?

 

[SaadKnight]

U r always right , dont respect your Islamic country and its belongings...It is Kufar.....

Salam ho

Bhai dekho I respect my country's original ideology and its belongings, but we do not need to make this ritualistic. We should change ourselves 1st in accordance with our deen only then can we actually understand the purpose of Pakistan and only then can we really respect our Ideological Islamic country and fight for it on any battle field. We have lost our deen and without it our flag raising is just a worldly ritual.

 

[SaadKnight]

All I am saying is why does Israr have to listen to national anthem while sitting when the country has nothing to do with Islam? Care to explain why Israr has to listen to a national anthem which is musical when music is prohibited according to Israr?

Hmm good question and one I do not have an answer for and will not make my own guess on it (bigsmile)

 

[Cheeko]

Hmm good question and one I do not have an answer for and will not make my own guess on it (bigsmile)

Do us a favour and do not listen to national anthem in future as it contains music produced by musical instruments and according to your understanding music is prohibited.

 

[Bret Hawk]

I think some friends over here are missing to grasp the subtle point of this contention by the late Dr sahab, which is commonly known as Chauvinism with the simplistic meaning of excessive pride in Nationalism which of course is not only discouraged but rightly condemned even by the great Prophet pbuh during his blessed life.

This same issue has also been mentioned by the great advocate (Dr Allama Iqbal) of Pan-Islamism in last century where he rightly attacked the concept of Nationalism and attributes it with the concepts of idol worship and burial shroud of Islamic ideology. Therefore the analogies of standing in respect and honour for a symbol or anthem of a nationalistic territory should not be drawn.

Islamic teachings emphasise to give respect, in its exclusive terms, to the concept of divinely ordained community of Islam which is known as Ummat ul Muslimin instead of glorifying and showing respect to those conceptual ideologies which bear the seeds of artificial divide and distances among the humans. The only division which Almighty ordains is based on the belief on Him and His revealed guidance for the mankind through the chain of His exalted Apostles and hence no one can create further caveats among the humanity on any basis including the hollow concept of nationalism. Full Stop

 

[SaadKnight]

Do us a favour and do not listen to national anthem in future as it contains music produced by musical instruments and according to your understanding music is prohibited.

I have not heard our national anthem with music for almost 5 years.
Suppose, there are a 100 people listening to our musical national anthem, (keeping in your mind that music is haram) would you speak out loud and say that I will not listen to our musical national anthem because music is haram, or would you just stay silent but know that this is not right in your heart (which is the weakest level of eemaan)? I think the later is what Dr. Israr would have done back then, but only Allah knows what were his thoughts.

And by the way please do not mistake me as a strict follower of Dr. Israr.

Tanks (bigsmile)

 

[indigo]

Since long u did not exercise into graves... now this is time... But we are talking about flags and its respect.....

They are not taking history into account.... Question is, was their always a single Muslim nation or there was different nations based on ethnic and other grounds?


As far I remember it was different Muslim nations who fought among themselves and destroyed themselves.

 

[Cheeko]

I think some friends over here are missing to grasp the subtle point of this contention by the late Dr sahab, which is commonly known as “Chauvinism” with the simplistic meaning of excessive pride in Nationalism which of course is not only discouraged but rightly condemned even by the great Prophet pbuh during his blessed life.

This same issue has also been mentioned by the great advocate (Dr Allama Iqbal) of Pan-Islamism in last century where he rightly attacked the concept of Nationalism and attributes it with the concepts of idol worship and burial shroud of Islamic ideology. Therefore the analogies of standing in respect and honour for a symbol or anthem of a nationalistic territory should not be drawn.

Islamic teachings emphasise to give respect, in its exclusive terms, to the concept of divinely ordained community of Islam which is known as Ummat ul Muslimin instead of glorifying and showing respect to those conceptual ideologies which bear the seeds of artificial divide and distances among the humans. The only division which Almighty ordains is based on the belief on Him and His revealed guidance for the mankind through the chain of His exalted Apostles and hence no one can create further caveats among the humanity on any basis including the hollow concept of nationalism. Full Stop

Actions are judged by intentions. Have you ever heard anyone saying that he or she stands up for national anthem with the intentions of worshipping the country? If no then stop defending this blunder of Israr. Wasn't Pakistan created in the name of Islam? Another question that arises is why did Israr listen to a national anthem which is musical when music is prohibited according to him?

 

[Cheeko]

I have not heard our national anthem with music for almost 5 years.
Suppose, there are a 100 people listening to our musical national anthem, (keeping in your mind that music is haram) would you speak out loud and say that I will not listen to our musical national anthem because music is haram, or would you just stay silent but know that this is not right in your heart (which is the weakest level of eemaan)? I think the later is what Dr. Israr would have done back then, but only Allah knows what were his thoughts.

And by the way please do not mistake me as a strict follower of Dr. Israr.

Tanks (bigsmile)

Keep the momentum going and do not listen to it in future also as it is only meant for those who say that music for good purposes is halal like me. Whereas Israr for sure had the lowest level of imaan according to his own criteria for keeping quiet and listening to national anthem while sitting.

 

[SaadKnight]

Keep the momentum going and do not listen to it in future also as it is only meant for those who say that music for good purposes is halal like me. Whereas Israr for sure had the lowest level of imaan according to his own criteria for keeping quiet and listening to national anthem while sitting.

Everyone is at the weakest level of eemaan no one is perfect in this timeline.