Open Challenge to SAFMA to prove Quaid-e-Azam secular!

[desicad]

With due respect,
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Our Beloved Jinnah Sahib took presidency for the first time in 1916..... Further in 1916 Mahomedali Jinnahbhai was a Documented Shia. Parents name Mithibai and Jinnahbhai Poonja. Jinnah's ancestors were Hindu Rajputs; his grandfather had converted to Islam. Jinnah's family belonged to the Ismaili Khoja branch of Shi'a Islam, though Jinnah later converted to Twelver Khoja Shi'a Islam. You need proof.... Ruttie Petit Jinnah died. It was her 29th birthday. She was buried on February 22 in Khoja Shia Isna'Ashari Cemetery, Mazgaon, Bombay according to Muslim rites. Jinnah sat like a statue throughout the funeral but when asked to throw earth on the grave, he broke down and wept.
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What actually you wanted to say with these few lines? Just asking out of curiosity.......

 

[Reactionary]

jinnah was not an extremist; however, he was NOT secular in any way shape or form. that is a non-issue, and not even a topic worth debating

 

[adnan_younus]

yo might be right with secular definition.. but he was a liberal right?? and didn't wanted an islamic state where shariat wil be implemented like the one maududi introduced....

may eb he wasnt secular but he never wanted an islamic state.. he jsut wanted a state of muslims where peolpe living tehre will govern what rules shud be applied... so if ppl want shariat system. every one shud vote for jamat-e-islami and theyll get shariat... simplzzzzz

Who is a secular? Oxford Dictionary defines secular as one who is not connected with religious or spiritual matters
On August 6, 1939, he said: I was born Muslim; I am a Muslim and shall die a Muslim. On another occasion he said: I am no Maulana or a Maulvi but I also know a little of my faith This clearly tells he was NOT a secular character by any definition of secularism.
source : http://safmaexposed.wordpress.com/

 

[sngilani]

Subject of this post is not the necessity of a separate state or what was perceived by the Muslim masses. The subject is weather he wanted secular state or Islamic.

You have to understand that he stood for Muslim masses of India. He himself never rejected the opinion of these masses. He was there nothing more than a means to materialise wishes of the Muslim masses. Please get the point without twisting facts and ground reality.

 

[Unicorn]

You have to understand that he stood for Muslim masses of India. He himself never rejected the opinion of these masses. He was there nothing more than a means to materialise wishes of the Muslim masses. Please get the point without twisting facts and ground reality.

Hindus will seize to be Hindus and Muslims will seize to be Muslims, not in religious sense but POLITICAL sense.NO RELIGION IN POLITICS.If what you are saying is true than either masses were secular or he betrayed the masses there is nothing in between.

One of the writer had mentioned in the column that he asked one of the attendee, who did not understand English but kept clapping during his speech " do you understand what he is saying". Attendee replied " no, but I agree with whatever he is saying"

 

[Unicorn]

With due respect,

When you look at a Strong, fully growen tree.. you also have to appreciate its foundation in this cased its Roots.

Now your Question about Our beloved Quaid Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, concept about being secular or not.... why not look back towards
All India Muslim league.

Now I do hope you have passed Class 7 History books, you might find a Name .... Called the first President of All India Muslim League.
His name Sir Adamji Peerbhoy

It must be noted that Sir Adamji Peerbhoy who was born in 1846 and died in 1913 had seen the period of four Dais [47th Dai Sayedna Abdul Qadar Najmuddin (1840 to 1885 - 45 years), 48th Dai Sayedna Abdul Husain Husamuddin (1885 to 1891- 6 years), 49th Dai, Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (1891 to 1906-14 years) and 50th Dai Sayedna Abdullah Badruddin (1906 to 1915 7 years)]

Getting my Point, Over here we are talking about so called Pure Islam, and what you as your First Muslim President of Muslim league a Dawoodi Bohra. OOOHHHHH

What that is not all We have Sir Aga Khan another All india Muslim Leage President 1909 (Sect Aga Khani)....OOOHHHHHH !!!!

Our Beloved Jinnah Sahib took presidency for the first time in 1916..... Further in 1916 Mahomedali Jinnahbhai was a Documented Shia. Parents name Mithibai and Jinnahbhai Poonja. Jinnah's ancestors were Hindu Rajputs; his grandfather had converted to Islam. Jinnah's family belonged to the Ismaili Khoja branch of Shi'a Islam, though Jinnah later converted to Twelver Khoja Shi'a Islam. You need proof.... Ruttie Petit Jinnah died. It was her 29th birthday. She was buried on February 22 in Khoja Shia Isna'Ashari Cemetery, Mazgaon, Bombay according to Muslim rites. Jinnah sat like a statue throughout the funeral but when asked to throw earth on the grave, he broke down and wept.

Confusion about Jinnah being a Shia Muslim or a Muslim at large took place after 14th Aug 1947. If we are talking about being Secular or Pure Muslman... which Islamic Trajectory are we talking about? If you are talking about Taliban Islam, there was non. if you are talking about Islam that prevail in Pakistan now, its not that.... Question is which Islamic Concept are you talking about?

Further we should not forget speech made by the Quaid-e-Azam in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947.

Further we should not forget Objectives Resolution adopted on 12 March 1949 by the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan.

Our Quaid Died September 11, 1948, his signature are not present on the First Objectives Resolution, or even its Drafts.

Brother my question is .. very simple.... What kind of Islam are we talking about?


Let me be a bit brave at this point.... Pakistan was made for Muslims. But some where along the beaten path we have pushed Pakistan into the folds of Radicalization. its founder members were liberal. Some where some how due to selective breeding we have become Monsters.

Wow hans got the 22 inch artillery gun out today. Lets see some good hateful comments.

 

[sngilani]

Hindus will seize to be Hindus and Muslims will seize to be Muslims, not in religious sense but POLITICAL sense.NO RELIGION IN POLITICS.If what you are saying is true than either masses were secular or he betrayed the masses there is nothing in between.

One of the writer had mentioned in the column that he asked one of the attendee, who did not understand English but kept clapping during his speech " do you understand what he is saying". Attendee replied " no, but I agree with whatever he is saying"

That was his spell. You quoted one example. What he is saying in this example is not preaching secularism. Please do'nt mislead. I can qoute hundreds of his sayings where he said that this country (Pakistan) is aquired in the name of Islam. Only few examples are given here:-

“The vital contest in which we are engaged is not only for the material gain but also the very existence of the soul of Muslim nation, Hence I have said often that it is a matter of life and death to the Musalmans and is not a counter for bargaining.”
Predisential Address devlivered at the Special Pakistan Session of the Punjab Muslim Students Federation
March 2, 1941


“Pakistan not only means freedom and independce but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”
Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation
June 18, 1945



“You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve.”
Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi
February 21, 1948


“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”
Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi
July 1, 1948

 

[Unicorn]

That was his spell. You quoted one example. What he is saying in this example is not preaching secularism. Please do'nt mislead. I can qoute hundreds of his sayings where he said that this country (Pakistan) is aquired in the name of Islam. Only few examples are given here:-

“The vital contest in which we are engaged is not only for the material gain but also the very existence of the soul of Muslim nation, Hence I have said often that it is a matter of life and death to the Musalmans and is not a counter for bargaining.”
Predisential Address devlivered at the Special Pakistan Session of the Punjab Muslim Students Federation
March 2, 1941


“Pakistan not only means freedom and independce but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”
Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation
June 18, 1945



“You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil. With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is nothing worthwhile that you cannot achieve.”
Address to the officers and men of the 5th Heavy Ack Ack and 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi
February 21, 1948


“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind”
Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi
July 1, 1948

Bro, I have already stated before that his other speeches, like the one quoted, are not secular. The speech to the assembly is unambiguously secular. Thats why there are arguments on both sides. Even Dr. Israr Ahmed has admitted this ambiguity.

 

[sngilani]

Bro, I have already stated before that his other speeches, like the one quoted, are not secular. The speech to the assembly is unambiguously secular. Thats why there are arguments on both sides. Even Dr. Israr Ahmed has admitted this ambiguity.

There is no ambiguity if you take Pakistan struggle holistically. Masses did want an Islamic State (that is ideology of Pakistan). Now people like u creat fun and confusion out of it.

 

[desicad]

There is no ambiguity if you take Pakistan struggle holistically. Masses did want an Islamic State (that is ideology of Pakistan). Now people like u creat fun and confusion out of it.

If there was no ambiguity then there won't have been any debate on secularism in pakistan more than 60 years later.
If the masses want islamic state and no political party has any agenda of making pakistan a secular state then few journalists making noise for secularism should not make anybody paranoid. There are half a dozen threads going on right now on more or less the same topic for no reason....pakistan will never be a secular state because vast majority is against it as per one of the surveys.

 

[sngilani]

If there was no ambiguity then there won't have been any debate on secularism in pakistan more than 60 years later.
If the masses want islamic state and no political party has any agenda of making pakistan a secular state then few journalists making noise for secularism should not make anybody paranoid. There are half a dozen threads going on right now on more or less the same topic for no reason....pakistan will never be a secular state because vast majority is against it as per one of the surveys.

''Pakistan will never be a secular state'', you are 100% right. Pakistan can be destroyed but cannot be converted into a secular state. If some how Pakistan is destroyed then if will be reborn with another name few centuries down the line. This is the nature of this land and people living there.

 

[sngilani]

Muslims of South Asia believe that Islam and Hinduism are not only two religions, but also two social orders that have given birth to two distinct cultures with no similarities. A deep study of the history of this land proves that the differences between Hindus and Muslims were not confined to the struggle for political supremacy, but were also manifested in the clash of two social orders. Despite living together for more than a thousand years, they continued to develop different cultures and traditions. Their eating habits, music, architecture and script, are all poles apart. Even the language they speak and the dresses they wear are entirely different. The ideology of Pakistan took shape through an evolutionary process.

 

[Mughal1]

Bro, I have already stated before that his other speeches, like the one quoted, are not secular. The speech to the assembly is unambiguously secular. Thats why there are arguments on both sides. Even Dr. Israr Ahmed has admitted this ambiguity.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthre...piracy-against-Isam/page2&p=505143#post505143

Dr israr is wrong in this because he is more into shariah as per islamic fiqh, which jinnah did not want.

That is why I wanted you to know what islam is as per jinnah. His islam is nonsectarian based on ideas of iqbal and sir seyyed. Secularism you are talking about is part of islam in sense of dealing with worldly affairs. I have a thread on it. Islam is best form of secularism because it gives precepts for dealing with worldly matter for rule of law.

You can find my short explanation on following thread.

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?77418-Islam-and-Democracy-(For-those-muslims-who-are-in-love-with-democracy-and-are-willing-to-die-for-it)

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal1]

Hindus will seize to be Hindus and Muslims will seize to be Muslims, not in religious sense but POLITICAL sense.NO RELIGION IN POLITICS.If what you are saying is true than either masses were secular or he betrayed the masses there is nothing in between.

One of the writer had mentioned in the column that he asked one of the attendee, who did not understand English but kept clapping during his speech " do you understand what he is saying". Attendee replied " no, but I agree with whatever he is saying"

Dear Unicorn, this shows that islam does not discriminate negatively instead it fights negative discrimination. The quran commands children to respect their nonmuslim parents and relatives so long as they do not discriminate against muslims negatively. If they do then they become enemies.

You are either with me or against me when it comes to living on equal footing. If you try and take undue advantage of me then you have shown animosity so if I react to that in a similar manner you should not be surprised.

Secular democracy when based on use and abuse of people is anti islam and the same is true about mullaism and religion whereby people use and abuse each other in the name of God.

So whatever jinnah said in assembly is not anti islam at all and is not secularism per se but islamic.

This is the problem with humanity that people do not agree on definition of secularism either that even between secularists people define secularism differently. Likewise democracy means different things to different people.

All people are trying to move towards common grounds including secularists and religious. All this shows that people do not want to live in isolation from each other. The only problem is what are the best terms for unity and as I already explained islam has the best terms for unity. For last 1400 + years none has been able to find anything better.


So it is better to understand islam and take advantage of it rather than fight for ideologies that are causing more and more problems. It is because there are problems within ideologies. Islamic ideology is free of problems though people are causing problems due to lack of their understanding of this ideology. You are part of problem rather than solution because you are trying to defend secular democracy based on capitalism and free market. This is game of rich and powerful between themselves at the expense of poor and weak people in the community. Even your charity work is rubbish because you promote a system that systematically discriminates against the very people you are trying to support. This is a contradiction within itself if you could realise. Thus your position is indefensible.

regards and all the best.

 

[w-a-n-t-e-d-]

Safma to raa funded kehnay walay kya wohi nhe jo yousaf kazaab k khalifa e awal thay​

[h=6]لال ٹوپی پہننے والے صاحب آپ اپنی اصلیت نہی چھپا سکتے ہو.
کیا تم وہی ہو جو یوسف کذاب کے خلیفہ اول تھے؟
کیا تم سمجتے ہو کہ لوگ تمہاری لال ٹوپی کو دیکھ کر فتنہ کذاب کو بھول جایں گے؟؟[/h][h=6][/h]

​

by khushnood ali khan

Source

http://www.dailyjinnah.com/islamabad/2011/August/18/column.jpg

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main nahi janta safma kia hai i recive this ........

 

[anasmr]

Safma to raa funded kehnay walay kya wohi nhe jo yousaf kazaab k khalifa e awal thay​

لال ٹوپی پہننے والے صاحب آپ اپنی اصلیت نہی چھپا سکتے ہو.
کیا تم وہی ہو جو یوسف کذاب کے خلیفہ اول تھے؟
کیا تم سمجتے ہو کہ لوگ تمہاری لال ٹوپی کو دیکھ کر فتنہ کذاب کو بھول جایں گے؟؟

​

by khushnood ali khan

Source

http://www.dailyjinnah.com/islamabad/2011/August/18/column.jpg

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main nahi janta safma kia hai i recive this ........

Tayyar hojaiyeh. Aap bohut jald RAW k agent, CIA k wazeefa khuwar aur Pakistan k ghaddar k alqaab hasil karnay walay hain :)

 

[famamdani]

aap ek normal vcr ko dosray vcr ke manual se kaise chala sakte ho....................ek vcr national ka ho or dosra sony ka is ka remote ek ho sakta he..................NO

jab ek choti si dunya ke insaan ke hathoon se banai hui woh mumkin nahi.....................tou ek insaan ko kisi doosrey nizam ke manuel ke saath kaise well set chala sakte hain...................us ke liye bhi usi ki muqarar karda manual (QURAN) se hi handle kia jasakta he agar us Rabbul Izzat per imaan ho ...................ke whoi KHALIQ INSAAN HE ................thats it................its very diffucult to understand............................??????????????????

 

[w-a-n-t-e-d-]

Tayyar hojaiyeh. Aap bohut jald RAW k agent, CIA k wazeefa khuwar aur Pakistan k ghaddar k alqaab hasil karnay walay hain :)

bhai main tu safma ko janta he nahi kaun hai kia hai ...

main tu serf maloon zaid hamid ko janta hoon k yeh lanti hai...

safma k baray main siasat pk pay threads dekhay tu yeh ek mail mainay yahan share kardi ta k
k sab k comments dekh k pata chalay k safma ka kia chakkar hai

 

[drkjke]

If you by islamic state mean theocracy or mullah shahi,the answer is:No,he did not want that.
He wanted a state governed by rule of law.

Laws based on book of Allah only.

haaain:13:..what mullahs want?(true ones ofcourse).they also want rule of allah in pakistan according to quran and sunnah...but you people have demonised the word mullah so much...but still go to them for funeral prayers or when you marry...why not go to them even than,if you hate them so much.

iqbal said in his poem iblees ki majlis e shoora that satan is instructing how to take out islam from people,s hearts. satan says that afghan muslims are very emotional about islam and give away their lives for islam,so to take out islams love from their heart we should expell the "mullah" (did iqbal foresee mullah umer?) from mountains of afghanistan...iqbal had great foresight as his heart was muslim..

we are doing the same thing in pakistan..demonise mullah word more than you demonise the word satan,though still "mullah" are the part of society who have least evil in their hearts compared to other people.also mullah means a religious man...only pakistan is a country in the world where mullah or religiou man has become a term for abuse or gaali...even in america religious men are respected....shame on such people who in disguise of word "mullah" actually are criticising against islam

 

[drkjke]

Safma to raa funded kehnay walay kya wohi nhe jo yousaf kazaab k khalifa e awal thay​

لال ٹوپی پہننے والے صاحب آپ اپنی اصلیت نہی چھپا سکتے ہو.
کیا تم وہی ہو جو یوسف کذاب کے خلیفہ اول تھے؟
کیا تم سمجتے ہو کہ لوگ تمہاری لال ٹوپی کو دیکھ کر فتنہ کذاب کو بھول جایں گے؟؟

​

by khushnood ali khan

Source

http://www.dailyjinnah.com/islamabad/2011/August/18/column.jpg

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main nahi janta safma kia hai i recive this ........

may Allahs curses be upon yusuf kezab and his followers .
but khushnood ali khan is also a drama and a liar..imtiaz alam is not a syed but a criminal minded indian agent...he is against islam and two nation theory and such people want pakitan to join with india again.such people inshalah will be dealt very harshly when an islamic and true pakistani government comes into power...by going into imtiaz alam,s pro india conference ,mr nawaz shareef has also inshalah signed the death warrants for his party,and i think that divine powers will humilate him more than he was humilated in 1999