Evolution, The Muslim theory

[patriot]

Though a great majority of people, regardless of their religion, consider Darwin as the originator of the idea of evolution, Darwin (1809-1882) and his grandfather Erasmus Darwin were influenced by the work of Muslim scientists who lived centuries before them. For instance, John William Draper (1812-1883), first president of American Chemical Society, a contemporary of Darwin, and a former president of New York University summarizes the deliberately induced academic amnesia in the West. Draper acknowledges the fact that Muslims described the theory of evolution in their schools centuries before the West did:


I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has contrived to put out of sight our scientific obligations to the Muhammadans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancor and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever.(Draper, John William. The Intellectual Development of Europe, p. 42.)


[Christian] theological authorities were therefore constrained to look with disfavor on any attempt to carry back the origin of the earth to an epoch indefinitely remote, and on the Muhammadan theory of evolution which declared that human beings developed over a long period of time from lower forms of life to the present condition. Sometimes, not without surprise, we meet the ideas with which we flatter ourselves with having originated our own times. Thus our modern doctrine of evolution and development were taught in their [Muslim] schools. In fact they carried them much farther than we are disposed to do, extending them even inorganic and minerals. (The History of the Conflict between Religion and Science, John William Draper, pp. 118, 187-188.)


Ironically, this Western amnesia regarding the scientific contribution of muslims coincided with the decline in Muslim world. By abandoning rational thinking and scientific methodology which is according to Quran is the necessary condition for being a muslim, they followed dogmas and story tellers.

Muslim scientists and philosophers of the medieval period had no qualms in accepting evolution as a divine system for creation.

For instance, the prominent Muslim polymath, philosopher and sociologist Ibni Khaldun (1332-1406), after a paragraph about the origin of human species, reminds the reader with a verse describing the deterministic nature of Gods system: You will never find a change in Gods system.
In his famous book Muqaddimah, Ibni Khaldun proposes a theory of evolution starting from minerals. Minerals, according to Ibn Khaldun, evolve and become seeded and seedless plants. Plants evolve and reach to their zenith with palm trees and vines. The evolution continues with snails and shelled sea animals. The diversification in animal kingdom reaches the zenith of creation by gradual evolution into human beings with consciousness and thinking skills.
According to Ibn Khaldun, monkeys are the link between animals and the first stage of humanity. Ibn Khaldun presents the theory of evolution by using scientific language, arguing that the essence of creation (in modern terminology: genetic code) passes through various changes (mutations) generating one species after another.


In addition to these, Muhammad al-Haytham (965-1039), who is known in the West by the name Alhazen, defends human evolution starting from minerals, plants, and animals in Kitabal Manazer, his book on optical science. Prominent leaders of Sufism such as Ibn Arabi (1165-1240) and Jaluluddin Rumi (1207-1273) also had no problem in accepting the idea of creation through evolution, an idea which was commonly held among Muslims. The Muslim Geologist al-Biruni (973-1048) in his book Kitab al-Jamahir also asserts that humans are created after long periods of evolution from simple organisms through natural selection.

Unfortunately, violent suppression of free speech and enforcement of anti-Quranic apostasy law by Muslim rulers and their hand-picked scholars plunged the Muslim world into a dark age. Great Muslim scientists and philosophers such as Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Sina, and Ibn Rushd were later condemned as heretics and apostates.

At present, we Muslims appear to have lost our ability to grasp the fact that we are living in a dark age .

15:26 We have created the human being from hardened clay of aged mud.

71:14 While He created you in stages?

71:17 God made you grow from the earth as plants.

 

[RustamShah]

Well nobody is shying away from anything. Here is something you should know about sahih muslim before quoting any hadith from it:

However, it is important to realize that Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj never claimed to collect all authentic traditions as his goal was to collect only traditions that all Muslims should agree on about accuracy.
According to Munthiri, there are a total of 2,200 hadiths (without repetition) in Sahih Muslim. According to Muhammad Amin,[SUP][2][/SUP] there are 1,400 authentic hadiths that are reported in other books, mainly the six major hadith collections.

.... Shia Muslims (and some sunnis) dismiss some of its contents as fabrications or untrustworthy due to the questionable reliability of some narrators

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Muslim

So, first you need to learn about the religion and then Science. However, as I have said before, the Hadith you have mentioned involves the theory of creation as it narrates that Hazrat Adam (AS) was created separately on Friday and was not evolved from the animals created and spread on earth earlier. Do you have any iota of sense to get it ?

Rest assure I know what I am saying, however, do you ? I asked you a simple question, do you accept these two Hadiths as authentic and could you kindly explain them ? And I guess you have reading problems as well ... :)

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Rest assure I know what I am saying, however, do you ? I asked you a simple question, do you accept these two Hadiths as authentic and could you kindly explain them ? And I guess you have reading problems as well ... :)

Seems like you have a serious problem of understanding. Read my previous post again and specially the last paragraph, where I have given you even my interpretation of the Hadith you have referred to.

 

[RustamShah]

Seems like you have a serious problem of understanding. Read my previous post again and specially the last paragraph, where I have given you even my interpretation of the Hadith you have referred to.

My dear shuja ji, in my post 295 I gave you a response which you have missed totally, rest assure I am pretty sure I know more about Science and Religion then you perhas, its however not the question here. You believers can not have your cake and eat it too, you when don't like a "Sahi" Hadith, dissmissed it very easily as nothing happened. I know history of Hadith collection and reason why most of them were rejected, so you don't have to tell me about it, I already know it for a very very long time ;-). About your so called interpretation of Hadith mentioned in first post of this thread, you just mentioned "shia Muslims and some Sunnis [like you may be] dismiss some of its contents as fabrication or untrustworty ...... lol how easy right.. just dismiss it because you know its nonsense, but all major scholars who accept it and perhaps are more learned then you ... they are in conflict with you, so should we trust you or them ?

As I mentioned in my post 295 and let me state once again so you may understand it... there is no evolution in Muslim theology, just a weird creation story with holes, though in 2nd Hadith mentioned in first post of this threaed, length of Bani Adam was shrinking over time .. so this shrinking was not "evolution" for you ?? or what ? Either accept the Hadith collection fully or deny it completely, you can not pick and choose what ever you like and act normal as nothing happened. By the way I know why are you rejecting these particular Hadiths ;) ...

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Unfortunately, violent suppression of free speech and enforcement of anti-Quranic apostasy law by Muslim rulers and their hand-picked scholars plunged the Muslim world into a dark age. Great Muslim scientists and philosophers such as Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Sina, and Ibn Rushd were later condemned as heretics and apostates.

At present, we Muslims appear to have lost our ability to grasp the fact that we are living in a dark age .

15:26 We have created the human being from hardened clay of aged mud.

71:14 While He created you in stages?

71:17 God made you grow from the earth as plants.

Yes, you have pointed out the real problem. This also had been my stance on this topic that religion and science should be dealt within their own perspectives, separately. Since scientific knowledge is not considered as an ultimate truth at any point in time. On the other hand, religion uses many things which may not only be interpreted differently by different people, but religion also uses many parables and likes for one to ponder upon. e.g. if we look at one of the Ayat you have quoted:

71:14 While He created you in stages?

Now your interpretation of it may link it with the theory of evolution, but to some people, it describes the whole prenatal and postnatal stages of human reproduction.

Likewise, there also are some ayats, which apparently go counter to the scientific discoveries, e.g.

18:87 Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Now, the modern science will tell you that there is no such place as the setting place of the sun and if you tell them that the sun sets in a black muddy/hot water spring, then they will only mock at you. So, the people who go by the book should discard science? or the people who go by science should discard the book?..... well this had been the problem. Therefore, a strict cordoning of the two streams of knowledge are necessary wherever they are subjected to prove one another. If science goes counter to religious paradigms, then it should be given its liberty to keep exploring further, rather than just shunning it down. Science can be used as an instrument to make religious teachings more clear, but if it fails to do so, then it is to be pardoned because every now and then new discoveries are made and previous theories become obsolete. So, it should be given due time and diligence to correct itself. To the question that whether or not science is required to prove the truth of the heavenly revelations is that the people living 1400 years ago never had the such a developed stream of knowledge in their times, but still they believed the revelations and testified it as truth and no doubt they were 1000 times better Muslims than we are today (even by having science describing many facets of Quran as true).

Now, personally I do not have any problems with what evolution theorists believe about evolution and creation of man. I just want them to carry on with their work, in a truly unbiased and scientific manner. Since there are many loopholes in the theory still, which demand satisfying answers, e.g. the most common problem of the zoologists (and the evolutionists as well) regarding the species is still to be settled

"... I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties" Darwin 1859 (p. 48)

"The concept of a species is a concession to our linguistic habits and neurological mechanisms" Haldane (1956)

"First, the species problem is not primarily an empirical one, but it is rather fraught with philosophical questions that require - but cannot be settled by - empirical evidence."Pigliucci (2003)

"An important aspect of any species definition whether in neontology or palaeontology is that any statement that particular individuals (or fragmentary specimens) belong to a certain species is an hypothesis (not a fact)" Bonde, N. (1977)

"We show that although discrete phenotypic clusters exist in most [plant] genera (>80%), the correspondence of taxonomic species to these clusters is poor (<60%) and no different between plants and animals. ... Contrary to conventional wisdom, plant species are more likely than animal species to represent reproductively independent lineages." Rieseberg, L.H.; Wood, T.E.; Baack, E.J. (2006)

I think it is better that the theory of evolution remains under discussion within the scientific societies of Darwinism and Creationists. Since they already have all the ingredients (the background and contextual knowledge of the field) and can bring about a refined theory which should be of progressive use for mankind. The debate between the clerics and scientists cannot prove to be of any significance as far as any pragmatism is concerned.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

My dear shuja ji, in my post 295 I gave you a response which you have missed totally, rest assure I am pretty sure I know more about Science and Religion then you perhas, its however not the question here. You believers can not have your cake and eat it too, you when don't like a "Sahi" Hadith, dissmissed it very easily as nothing happened. I know history of Hadith collection and reason why most of them were rejected, so you don't have to tell me about it, I already know it for a very very long time ;-). About your so called interpretation of Hadith mentioned in first post of this thread, you just mentioned "shia Muslims and some Sunnis [like you may be] dismiss some of its contents as fabrication or untrustworty ...... lol how easy right.. just dismiss it because you know its nonsense, but all major scholars who accept it and perhaps are more learned then you ... they are in conflict with you, so should we trust you or them ?

As I mentioned in my post 295 and let me state once again so you may understand it... there is no evolution in Muslim theology, just a weird creation story with holes, though in 2nd Hadith mentioned in first post of this threaed, length of Bani Adam was shrinking over time .. so this shrinking was not "evolution" for you ?? or what ? Either accept the Hadith collection fully or deny it completely, you can not pick and choose what ever you like and act normal as nothing happened. By the way I know why are you rejecting these particular Hadiths ;) ...

Goodness..... well, is it like your way to annoy people away from a discussion when you tend to loose on some point or is it a genuine problem with you ? Go back again to my post and try to find my last paragraph which goes like :

So, first you need to learn about the religion and then Science. However, as I have said before, the Hadith you have mentioned involves the theory of creation as it narrates that Hazrat Adam (AS) was created separately on Friday and was not evolved from the animals created and spread on earth earlier. Do you have any iota of sense to get it ?

Anyway, I am not rejecting the Hadith. Got my point ????

 

[RustamShah]

Goodness..... well, is it like your way to annoy people away from a discussion when you tend to loose on some point or is it a genuine problem with you ? Go back again to my post and try to find my last paragraph which goes like :



Anyway, I am not rejecting the Hadith. Got my point ????

Goodness ... well, is it like your way to annoy people away from a discussion when you tend to loose on some point or is it a genuine problem with you ? Go back again to my post and try to find the line where I wrote "As I mentioned in my post 295 [page 2 of this thread] and let me state once again so you may understand it... there is no evolution in Muslim theology, just a weird creation story with holes"

So if you are NOT rejecting the Hadith would you kindly explain them as well ? As a creation story and not as evolutionary story ? :) Not asking much here my friend ? By the way I already started another thread where some good information given for people like you who loved to challenge theory of evolution .. check it out

 

[mediator]

How about trying to answer the question instead of calling the person names?

The response has two parts.


1. Hadith and science in general

Please watch this lecture by Dr. Jonathan brown
he is a convert who has studied hadith from both Islamic and Western perspectives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ4eZ1C3lyo

He clarifies a lot of misconceptions that lay muslims have about hadith.



2. With regards to these particular hadith

The tafsir Maariful Quran states (41:9-12)
http://www.islamicstudies.info/maarif/

Because of this and also because of its (weak) chain of narrators, this hadith has been hald as malul(defective) by the leading muhaddithin.

Ibn Kathir has stated that this hadith is one of the strange ones of sahih of Muslim and then stated that Imam Bukhari.. has considered this narration to be ma'lul (defective).

And some scholars have quoted this statedment as a saying of Sayyidna Abu Hurairah by Ka'b ahbar and not as a statement of the holy Prophet. ... Similarly ofther masters of hadith like ibn-ulmadinia, Baihaqi, etc, have also considered it to be a statement of ka'b ahbar.

Briefy, of the hadith wherein the duration, days, and sequence of creation of the earth and skies is narrated, no narration is such which can be said to be as absolutely certain as the Quran. Rather, it is very likely that these maybe Israelite tradition not noble hadith.


see also Abu ala Maududi's tafsir
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafhe...&verse=9&to=18

For the height of humans
See
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/20...60-cubits.html

 

[patriot]

Yes, you have pointed out the real problem. This also had been my stance on this topic that religion and science should be dealt within their own perspectives, separately. Since scientific knowledge is not considered as an ultimate truth at any point in time. On the other hand, religion uses many things which may not only be interpreted differently by different people, but religion also uses many parables and likes for one to ponder upon. e.g. if we look at one of the Ayat you have quoted:

71:14 While He created you in stages?

Now your interpretation of it may link it with the theory of evolution, but to some people, it describes the whole prenatal and postnatal stages of human reproduction.

Likewise, there also are some ayats, which apparently go counter to the scientific discoveries, e.g.

18:87 Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Now, the modern science will tell you that there is no such place as the setting place of the sun and if you tell them that the sun sets in a black muddy/hot water spring, then they will only mock at you. So, the people who go by the book should discard science? or the people who go by science should discard the book?..... well this had been the problem. Therefore, a strict cordoning of the two streams of knowledge are necessary wherever they are subjected to prove one another. If science goes counter to religious paradigms, then it should be given its liberty to keep exploring further, rather than just shunning it down. Science can be used as an instrument to make religious teachings more clear, but if it fails to do so, then it is to be pardoned because every now and then new discoveries are made and previous theories become obsolete. So, it should be given due time and diligence to correct itself. To the question that whether or not science is required to prove the truth of the heavenly revelations is that the people living 1400 years ago never had the such a developed stream of knowledge in their times, but still they believed the revelations and testified it as truth and no doubt they were 1000 times better Muslims than we are today (even by having science describing many facets of Quran as true).

Now, personally I do not have any problems with what evolution theorists believe about evolution and creation of man. I just want them to carry on with their work, in a truly unbiased and scientific manner. Since there are many loopholes in the theory still, which demand satisfying answers, e.g. the most common problem of the zoologists (and the evolutionists as well) regarding the species is still to be settled

"... I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties" Darwin 1859 (p. 48)

"The concept of a species is a concession to our linguistic habits and neurological mechanisms" Haldane (1956)

"First, the species problem is not primarily an empirical one, but it is rather fraught with philosophical questions that require - but cannot be settled by - empirical evidence."Pigliucci (2003)

"An important aspect of any species definition whether in neontology or palaeontology is that any statement that particular individuals (or fragmentary specimens) belong to a certain species is an hypothesis (not a fact)" Bonde, N. (1977)

"We show that although discrete phenotypic clusters exist in most [plant] genera (>80%), the correspondence of taxonomic species to these clusters is poor (<60%) and no different between plants and animals. ... Contrary to conventional wisdom, plant species are more likely than animal species to represent reproductively independent lineages." Rieseberg, L.H.; Wood, T.E.; Baack, E.J. (2006)

I think it is better that the theory of evolution remains under discussion within the scientific societies of Darwinism and Creationists. Since they already have all the ingredients (the background and contextual knowledge of the field) and can bring about a refined theory which should be of progressive use for mankind. The debate between the clerics and scientists cannot prove to be of any significance as far as any pragmatism is concerned.

Brother there won't be any problem if we apply it to both , the stages you mentioned and stages of evolution .

And ayat 18:87 does not go against the Quran if you ponder upon the word HE FOUND IT SETTING ....... meaning it seemed to him setting........

So no need of discarding neither the book nor the science.


My position concerning The Qur'an and science is that the book of Allah can never be wrong where as scientific theories can be, but as long there is no clear statement about a specific matter we must not deny it on pretext of religious believes which have no actual basis in The Qur'an and may be mullah beliefs .

Salaamun Alaikum.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

My position concerning The Qur'an and science is that the book of Allah can never be wrong where as scientific theories can be, but as long there is no clear statement about a specific matter we must not deny it on pretext of religious believes which have no actual basis in The Qur'an and may be mullah beliefs .

Wa Alaikum as Salaam.

Well, my take on the subject is also quite similar, however, I see science as an evolving discipline of knowledge, that is why it is fallible and Quran is already an established source of knowledge and wisdom. That is why, I am not in favor of comparing everything of science with religion or vice versa. I have already explained it in my previous posts on the thread that I am not against the theory of evolution or its development or call anyone to be going against religion while he is doing a meaningful research on it. Likewise, I am also not in favor of anyone who tries to imply that the theory of evolution is the ultimate reality of human creation accordingly described in Islam.

Actually there are two kinds of knowledge, one is just impressive and the other one is progressive. While working towards the latter, the religiously inclined people should give science the liberty to make mistakes or differ from their interpretations of anything while the scientists should also accept that anything in science, specially in theories and research works, at any single point can be termed as final and ultimate.... tomorrow may bring some new evidences, new ways of thinking and some new breakthroughs.... therefore no one can really press anyone. Pragmatism in this can only prevail if the validity and reliability of theory of evolution is discussed in circles which have the relevant scientific knowledge. Only then it can proceed further towards its conclusive stance. While holding a debate with the religious and/or a layman will just be a display of impressive knowledge (with no practical benefit to either), since no one will really be able to be convincing enough and the end result will not be anything more than a useless argument. Therefore, the knowledge which is divine should be compartmentalized from science, since people never required science to believe in religion however science can just verify only some aspects of religion, but not necessarily always or all of them, completely.

 

[Sohail Shuja]

there is no evolution in Muslim theology, just a weird creation story with holes"

Well, theory of evolution have bigger holes than that, e.g. can this theory of evolution really prove that life on eath is not extra-terrestrial? I mean they say it takes millions of years to develop from one organism to another. Now, lets start from the variations we have from a nascent virus like creature to the prokaryotic cell, then to all the non chordate phylums to chordates and specially the higher order chordates. Now also look towards the other kingdoms than animalia. Now consider the time not from when earth was created, rather when its surface was mild enough to harness life, and then tell me whether the theory fits into the time frame to circumscribe all the evolutionary changes it requires to evolve from unicellular to such higher functional animals, plants, fungi and others ?

Plus, theory of evolution says that there was only once a situation on earth, when a living cell came into being from non-living matter. Well, it is true that organisms are made up of non-living matter, but how can one explain that why those conditions never occurred again on earth ? How weird and pathetically inexplicable....

Well, I personally think that life is extra-terrestrial, where different species or their primates landed on earth, including plants and animals, carried by a meteor or some other vehicle (and this goes in line with the teachings of Quran as well that Adam was created in heavens and then was sent to earth)... how can you counter my argument with your scientific proofs ?

In order to cut the story short: there are still many questions which demand a meaningful answer and therefore the theory of evolution can not be taken as it is in its present form. So, it will be quite naive to say that it has the answers for all the questions. Therefore, using it to counter arguments put forward by creationists cannot be nullified on scientific merit.

By the way I already started another thread where some good information given for people like you who loved to challenge theory of evolution .. check it out

Yes I have seen your new thread and have also witnessed your popularity over there as well. It is better that you develop some basic sense, acquire enough knowledge of both religion and science and then project your thoughts on a relevant platform, where you may discuss it for the benefit of mankind.

 

[patriot]

Well, I personally think that life is extra-terrestrial, where different species or their primates landed on earth, including plants and animals, carried by a meteor or some other vehicle (and this goes in line with the teachings of Quran as well that Adam was created in heavens and then was sent to earth)... how can you counter my argument with your scientific proofs ?

Reference if you please .

 

[mehwish_ali]

2. With regards to these particular hadith

The tafsir Maariful Quran states (41:9-12)
http://www.islamicstudies.info/maarif/

Because of this and also because of its (weak) chain of narrators, this hadith has been hald as malul(defective) by the leading muhaddithin.

Ibn Kathir has stated that this hadith is one of the strange ones of sahih of Muslim and then stated that Imam Bukhari.. has considered this narration to be ma'lul (defective).

And some scholars have quoted this statedment as a saying of Sayyidna Abu Hurairah by Ka'b ahbar and not as a statement of the holy Prophet. ... Similarly ofther masters of hadith like ibn-ulmadinia, Baihaqi, etc, have also considered it to be a statement of ka'b ahbar.

Briefy, of the hadith wherein the duration, days, and sequence of creation of the earth and skies is narrated, no narration is such which can be said to be as absolutely certain as the Quran. Rather, it is very likely that these maybe Israelite tradition not noble hadith.


see also Abu ala Maududi's tafsir
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafhe...&verse=9&to=18

1st:
Can you give exact reasons why you are calling this tradition Malul?
Really, in name of Malul, scholars got hands to a WEAPON through which they could deny any tradition that they don't like.

2nd:
You are accusing Abu Huraira (a Sahabi) for telling lies upon Rasool Allah (saw)...
Abu Hurairah clearly referring these traditions Rasool Allah (saw), but scholar you pointed above are claiming that Abu Hurairah actually narrated these traditions from Ka'ab al-Ahbar (a jew who converted to islam during Umar's era and even Umar revered him), but wrongfully attributed them to Rasool Allah (saw).

If we to believe that Sahabies like Abu Hurairah lied in name of Prophet (saw), then the whole concept of "Kuluhum Adool" کلھم عدول about Sahaba will collapse.

For the height of humans
See
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/20...60-cubits.html

Are you yourself satisfied with such excuses as has been presented in this article?

1st:
Not a single proof that Adam was made shorter when he was sent to the earth.

2nd:
The statement of Prophet (saw) that **People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.”**, this in itself proving the opposite what Anwar Shah Kashmiri & Mufti Taqi Uthmani is claiming i.e. it is a gradual process on the earth where Adam was 60 cubit long but then people gradually started decreasing in stature.
Mufti Taqi Uthmani and Anwar Shah Kashmiri may be scholars, but excuse which they are presenting here is a very very lame excuse.



Lastly: Quran claims Noah preached for 950 years

It was only preaching age. This means we have to add the age of his birth till getting the Nabuwwah. Then we have to add the years that Nuh (alaihis salam) lived after the storm (which is according to bible 350 years).

And Nuh (as) was not alone who lived such a long life, but his wife and his son was also living along him for such long life. This means whole community of Nuh's (as) era got such age range.

I am not talking about Darwin here, but I am talking about Science, which has succeeded in proving that none of the human being got such long ages.

 

[RustamShah]

@Mehwish

Excellent reply almost what I wanted to say to him about these links and the contents they have. Specially from the last link turnthetable.com...

 

[RustamShah]

Well, I personally think that life is extra-terrestrial, where different species or their primates landed on earth, including plants and animals, carried by a meteor or some other vehicle (and this goes in line with the teachings of Quran as well that Adam was created in heavens and then was sent to earth)... how can you counter my argument with your scientific proofs ?

I don't think you can carry different species or their primates on a meteor, you know they travel quite fast and normally they make a big boom when they hit the ground !! plus until they enter the Earth atmosphere they are traveling in space, where you need to feed these animals with Oxygen etc etc.. you know the normal problems. Its quite amazing that you have probelm with a normal evolution theory, for which you have many evidences, but would like to believe another masterpiece theory ! Its quite possible building blocks of life may came crashing down with meteor or with comets, a theory called Panspermia, but even if its the case you need theory of evolution, you can not deliver fully grown "animals" with your meteor or comets. About the the "some other vehicle" theory, I would let you find them first, please do share with us when you find them !

I don't think Allah need to create Adam first in Paradise and then transports to Earth, He could have easily created Him on Earth or started a process which eventually lead to Adam as first Prophet, with Humans already presents on earth, yes its possible, but saying he just landed on empty Earth doing nothing is not logical nor have any evidences to support it. We have discuss enough on Evolution, we can try your Theory of Adam been created and transported to earth, would you kindly provide us some evidences ? will be highly appreciated !

 

[Sohail Shuja]

I don't think you can carry different species or their primates on a meteor,

Well, it is your own thinking then, you have also mentioned about the theory of panspermia, which also exists and these days they are saying that life started on mars and was carried on a meteorite (reference link 1,reference link 2, reference link 3, reference link 4,reference link 5, reference link 6).

you know they travel quite fast and normally they make a big boom when they hit the ground !! plus until they enter the Earth atmosphere they are traveling in space, where you need to feed these animals with Oxygen etc etc.

.

Well, as I told you earlier that your knowledge even in the field of science (i.e. biology) is also very weak. Don't you know about how viruses go for crystallization and becomes dormant as a non living totally, no breathing and no nutrition ? Also, even if a multicellular organism is frozen (as the temperatures in outer space are well below freezing) then it can regain life once the ice has melted. We have a very good historical account of people who get buried alive in snow avalanches and then they are recovered alive. Also, the impact of friction on a body travelling through the earths atmosphere depends on factors like its speed while entering the atmosphere, the density of air at that time and above all the shape of the body. A body can safely land without getting too hot by friction of air if its aerodynamics are similar to that of a parachute or umbrella. Though it will take it long to land on the surface of earth, but it will definitely land without getting too hot. Also, it is believed that at the time when life started on earth, the earth's atmosphere was not as dense as it is today and carried much less oxygen. That defines that the density of the atmosphere was not high, therefore it would have provided much less resistance (friction) to the body entering and passing through it.

Its quite amazing that you have probelm with a normal evolution theory,

Well, it is not me, there are many scientists as well who do not believe on the normal evolution (see the reference links above). That is why I had been stressing that the discussion on evolution theory should be carried out between the scientists first until they have confirmed that this theory is now complete and have reached to its zenith, where it can define each and everything. What they have now is the word "may" in their description that "it APPEARS that life MAY have started on earth from a single cell" however, they are still not sure because there are many gaps in this theory still.

for which you have many evidences, but would like to believe another masterpiece theory ! Its quite possible building blocks of life may came crashing down with meteor or with comets, a theory called Panspermia,

See, you started to have your tables turning now. First I think all the scientists should come at one conclusion... the things like "MAY" and "Might" should be eradicated completely. Unless so, it cannot be compared with the religious beliefs for any explanations, because religion does not go about the words "May, MIGHT or QUITE POSSIBLE", it should be "DEFINITE" for any religious comparisons.

but even if its the case you need theory of evolution, you can not deliver fully grown "animals" with your meteor or comets. About the the "some other vehicle" theory, I would let you find them first, please do share with us when you find them !

The size of foreign bodies can range upto any size, since there are records of asteroids landing on earth which created craters as big as 10 KM in diameter (e.g. the Chixclub crater ) so you can not really say that the size of such foreign objects on earth is always as small as you might think. It can be humongous as to provide enough space to many thousand animals and plants on it.

I don't think Allah need to create Adam first in Paradise and then transports to Earth, He could have easily created Him on Earth or started a process which eventually lead to Adam as first Prophet, with Humans already presents on earth, yes its possible, but saying he just landed on empty Earth doing nothing is not logical nor have any evidences to support it.

Now, as I said in my earlier posts that your scientific as well as religious knowledge and understanding is quite premature. First, go through Quran and you will come to know that nothing is difficult for Allah (SWT). If the whole universe was created out of nothing at all, then why you find it difficult to comprehend that Allah (SWT) is Almighty and have powers over all things. Another thing you will come to know from the study of Quran (and from Bible and Torah as well) is that Hazrat Adam (AS) was the first man ever created. Can you provide me with any references to your belief that Hazrat Adam (AS) was sent among people who were already present on earth before him ? And it is also your naive perception that Hazrat Adam (AS) landed on earth doing nothing.

We have discuss enough on Evolution, we can try your Theory of Adam been created and transported to earth, would you kindly provide us some evidences ? will be highly appreciated !

Well, in case if above mentioned references are not enough for you to understand, then I can send you some more. But the thing is that I am not getting assertive that whatever I think is the truth and everything happened as I perceive it. I personally think and as I have said earlier numerous times on this thread that the theory of evolution is still evolving and does not describe many things and as everyday more and more things are discovered, the axioms are changing. Therefore, I can really not stress on my theory, nor can I confer to yours, as far as my religion is concerned, I hold it as the ultimate truth and the Final word.

 

[mehwish_ali]

The lifespan of Adam (as) was also 1000 years, out of which he gifted 40 years to prophet Dawud (as), therefore he died at age of 960 years. Here is the tradition from al-Timidhi:

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) informed us that Allah showed Adam his descendants. Adam saw a beautiful light in Prophet Davids eyes and loved him, so he turned to Allah and said: Oh Allah. Give him forty years from my life. Allah granted Adam his request, and it was written down and sealed. Adams life span was supposed to be 1000 years but after 960 years the Angel of death came to Adam. Adam was surprised and said but I still have 40 years to live. The angel of death reminded him of his gift of 40 years to his beloved descendant Prophet David, but Adam denied it. Many, many years later, the last Prophet Muhammad said: Adam denied so the children of Adam deny, Adam forgot and his children forget; Adam made mistakes and his children make mistakes. [At-Tirmidzi]



Narrated Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him): Allahs Messenger (peace be upon him) said:
When Allah created Adam and breathed into him, he sneezed. He said: Praise be to Allah, by His permission. At this, his Lord said to him: Your Lord has bestowed mercy on you. O Adam! Go to those angels sitting there and greet them. So Adam said: As salaamu alaykum (peace be upon you). They responded to him. Then he came back to his Lord. Allah said: It will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring.
Allah said, having made His Hands closed: Select any one of them. Adam said: I select the right hand and both the hands of my Lord are right and blessed. Then Allah spread it. There was Adam and his generation. Adam asked: O Lord! Who are these people? Allah said: They are your children. Every human beings life is written between his eyes. Among them was a man with the brightest face. For him was written only forty years of age. Adam said: O Lord! Who is this fellow? Allah said: This is your son Dawood [David]. His life span is written forty years. Adam said: O Lord! Increase his age. Allah said: This is what I have written down for him. He said: Then I give him sixty years of my age. Allah said: This is between you and him. Live in Paradise.
He lived there as long as Allah wished. Then he was descended from it to earth. Adam was counting his age. Then the angel of death came to him. Adam said to him: You have come earlier. For me, one thousand years have been written. The angel said: Yes, but out of them you have given sixty years to your son Dawood. Adam denied that so his successors also denied. He forgot, so his successors also forgot. From that day, Allah ordered writing down and making witnesses (for pledges).

(This hadith is sound and reported by Ibn Abi Asim, Ibn Hibbaan and Hakim in his mustadrak.)



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[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 700, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]

Lifespans BEFORE the Flood​

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[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]

Lifespans AFTER the Flood​

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[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Biblical
Patriarch
[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Age when
first son born
[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Age
at death
[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Biblical
Patriarch
[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Age when
first son born
[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Age
at death
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Adam[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]?[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]930[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Shem[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]600[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Seth[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]105[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]912[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Arphaxad[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]35[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]438[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Enosh[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]90[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]905[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Salah[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]433[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Cainan[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]70[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]910[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Eber[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]34[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]464[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Mahalealel[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]65[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]895[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Peleg[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]239[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Jared[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]162[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]962[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Reu[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]32[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]239[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Enoch[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]65[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]365[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Serug[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]230[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Methuselah[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]187[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]969[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Nahor[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]29[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]148[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Lamech[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]182[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]777[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Terah[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]70[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]205[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Noah[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]500[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]950[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Abraham[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]175[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]Isaac[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]60[/TD]
[TD="width: 115, align: center"]180[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Sadia Hashmi]

The lifespan of Adam (as) was also 1000 years, out of which he gifted 40 years to prophet Dawud (as), therefore he died at age of 960 years. Here is the tradition from al-Timidhi:

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) informed us that Allah showed Adam his descendants. Adam saw a beautiful light in Prophet David’s eyes and loved him, so he turned to Allah and said: “Oh Allah. Give him forty years from my life.” Allah granted Adam his request, and it was written down and sealed. Adam’s life span was supposed to be 1000 years but after 960 years the Angel of death came to Adam. Adam was surprised and said “but I still have 40 years to live”. The angel of death reminded him of his gift of 40 years to his beloved descendant Prophet David, but Adam denied it. Many, many years later, the last Prophet Muhammad said: “Adam denied so the children of Adam deny, Adam forgot and his children forget; Adam made mistakes and his children make mistakes.” [At-Tirmidzi]

human being can get the years of life in a gift,,,,, great.

i want only 500 years,,, donation required........

 

[Sohail Shuja]

Reference if you please .

2:35 to 2:38 -- but I see why you are asking, so please I will request you to provide any references if you are to go about any counter argument to this like Hazrat Adam (AS) was not said to be created in Heavens, but look at what the story depicts that he was also not created on earth and eventually was sent down to earth. Furthermore, it is also implied that the gardens of heavens had all the plants and animals therein

 

[mehwish_ali]

human being can get the years of life in a gift,,,,, great.

i want only 500 years,,, donation required........

سعدیہ بہن، آج کے دور میں اتنی لمبی عمر لے کر کیا کریں گی؟

ادھر تو یہ چھوٹی سی زندگی نہیں کٹتی کہ روز اخبارات میں انسانیت کے قتل و خون کی خبریں پڑھ پڑھ کر اور پاکستان میں ہونے والے واقعات کو دیکھ دیکھ کر انسان پل پل مرتا ہے۔ یہ دین و مذہب و قومیت و لسانیت کے نام پر پھیلائی گئیں نفرتیں، یہ ناانصافیاں ۔۔۔


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