Does the conscious arise from a quantum process.

[Sadia Hashmi]

][/COLOR]Ghayab in its essence and in Quranic sense is something that is eternally unknowable or which we are innately/inherently incapable of knowing.........that (physical) element of uncertainty which does not fit into any logic/mathematical calculation........which cannot be comprehensively go hold of...........to prove our existence or still better to prove the start of life (don't bring in Boson particle here yet!) on this planet as we know it, and existence of God

I mentioned Quranic sense also which is totally different from the things u mentioned. Ghayab in the Quran is used for two things: for the creator/Allah (Ghayab per Eman) and having/gaining knowledge with certainty of some thing/event happening in future.

There is nothing specific in this particular verse........I just picked it up because it was related to the topic we r discussing.

Lest, we overlook, our topic is: is it possible to see Allah? My position is He can only be felt, not seen or touched, thus, eman bil-ghaib.

This verse my not directly show that Allah is ghaib but it does point to the attributes I believe and an discussing here.

Here is the translation: "Indeed, those who fear their Lord unseen will have forgiveness and great reward."

If u meant the highlighted parts, then there is no contradictions. If there is then please point it out.......
Argument in the second line of ur post is invalid.

there is a difference between unseen faith and faith on unseen(faith on gayb) and i wana say that we have unseen faith on ALLAH but ALLAH is not gayab. ALLAH is Hazir. we cant see HIM but we feel HIM and wen we feel something it means that is hazir.... i think now u would understand my point.

the contradictions in ur posts are that u say ALLAH is gayb in the essence of Quran (but how come?) on the other hand u say HE can b felt....right ..... how can we feel if HE is gayab?
the verse u presented as reference and u also translated it, shows that fear is unseen not our LORD is unseen. (though i dont translate it in fear sense cause 'fear' shows some negativity and horror for ALMIGHTY who is rahim )

plz read 35:18 verse it would also help u.

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

there is a difference between unseen faith and faith on unseen(faith on gayb) and i wana say that we have unseen faith on ALLAH but ALLAH is not gayab. ALLAH is Hazir. we cant see HIM but we feel HIM and wen we feel something it means that is hazir.... i think now u would understand my point.

the contradictions in ur posts are that u say ALLAH is gayb in the essence of Quran (but how come?) on the other hand u say HE can b felt....right ..... how can we feel if HE is gayab?
the verse u presented as reference and u also translated it, shows that fear is unseen not our LORD is unseen. (though i dont translate it in fear sense cause 'fear' shows some negativity and horror for ALMIGHTY who is rahim )

plz read 35:18 verse it would also help u.

I think there is confusion between the use of two urdu words here and the spellings being used for them in roman Urdu. I adopted ur spellings which perhaps were not correct. The two urdu words are: غائب and غیب. I meant latter and that is what for me Allah is. In English, the former would mean as absent and the latter as unseen.

Hazir is Allah's attribute and is opposite to absent (غائب). In this sense ur point is valid and correct. But it was not the main or original point of discussion.

The original point was/is whether Allah is knowable or feel-able thru five senses. My answer is an emphatic NO. Use of word 'Feel' for indicating present of Allah in an earlier post of mine was a careless choice of word which my mind just translated from Urdu 'mehsoos' to Eng 'feel' while in English I wanted to use word 'perceive' which is the correct expression. Both feel and perceive in English would translate to mehsoos in urdu.

My position on this whole issue is that humans/believers only perceive the presence of Allah by processing various signs in their environment using their conscious/intellect. They cannot feel His presence by using their sense of feeling thru a touch or by using all the five senses combined.

Hope it is clear now.

Regarding the references to the verses (yours and mine), neither of them contradicts my position explained above. As noted earlier, I just randomly picked up that verse. With some effort, an even more directly relevant and applicable verse can be quoted. But I dont think it is needed now.

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

Kithay Sir G, Siyapa is in May and then Wadda Siyapa shall start of finding JOB, Lol

About Maslow ladder of need Veila is skeptical as it is very idealistic kind of approach. If you observe life of Sahaba then you may find their foremost priority has been Islam and they risked even their lives.

Secondly, our dear capitalist also have some kind of pyramid where 1% trickle down effect is supposed to nourish 99% which of course doesn't happen.

Coming back to Maslow, it also doesn't address opportunist behavior so it is beyond reality. Well, that's nothing to do with topic so about topic I shall urge to share your views about Mutashabihat.

Aleph has confined it to Zaat e Bari Tala but what do you say if Life of Hazrat Esa Alaih Salam is Muhkum or Mutashabih?

Veilay: theory, especially in social sciences, is always idealistic and works/applicable in standard circumstances.......serves as a kind of benchmark!

Exceptions to a theory are always there and actually proves that theory is on a relatively sounder foundations. Sahaba (R.A.T.A) were a specially blessed group of people trained by The Chosen One! So, they are considered exceptions but to me even they were on the highest ladder.

In a moral essence, our dear capitalist rarely rises above the third level on this ladder.

You can also view this theory from a macro as well as micro level perspective. Group theories most work at macro level. You would encounter all opportunist at 2nd or 3rd level. But all 2nd or 3rd levelers are not opportunists. Non-opportunists would surely progress to higher levels with time in their lives.

Now to the topic: For me the Quran is a book of Divine guidance and eternal wisdom, thus, an avenue and object of tadabbur and tafakkur. My general attitude is to believe in it.............and every word of it.............as it is, and I dont bother myself for the tadabbur and tafakkur until I have a practical life issue before me.

For me some of the Quranic guidance was for the past times (and may become relevant again in furture), some of it is for the present and some of it is for the future times and life. Please dont be confused by 'some'. It is has not been used to bifurcate the Quran rather just to convey a sense and/or a meaning.

I just believe in what has been said about life of Jesus (AS) in the Quran, as it does not bother my practical life at the moment so I have never given it any serious thought. As I have not done my tadabbur and tafakkur over this topic, so am unable to give u my personal opinion. Same goes for all the other topics relating to mutahsbihat.

Unlike Aleph, I have not been formally trained in the Quranic and Islamic sciences, so need time to read and think about such issues/questions. If u insist then I would need to read in details and think about it. After that I would be in a position to say something. The most I can stick my neck out for at this moment is that some of the mutashabihat of 5-6 centuries ago may have become the muhkmat of today and similarly for the future.......

Finally, having a little insight into human nature/psyche, nature of scientific inquiry and using a little logic, I can say/repeat that our skepticism would always be a step of ahead of our understanding of the state and art of knowledge/science.

 

[Sadia Hashmi]

Veilay: theory, especially in social sciences, is always idealistic and works/applicable in standard circumstances.......serves as a kind of benchmark!

Exceptions to a theory are always there and actually proves that theory is on a relatively sounder foundations. Sahaba (R.A.T.A) were a specially blessed group of people trained by The Chosen One! So, they are considered exceptions but to me even they were on the highest ladder.

In a moral essence, our dear capitalist rarely rises above the third level on this ladder.

You can also view this theory from a macro as well as micro level perspective. Group theories most work at macro level. You would encounter all opportunist at 2nd or 3rd level. But all 2nd or 3rd levelers are not opportunists. Non-opportunists would surely progress to higher levels with time in their lives.

Now to the topic: For me the Quran is a book of Divine guidance and eternal wisdom, thus, an avenue and object of tadabbur and tafakkur. My general attitude is to believe in it.............and every word of it.............as it is, and I dont bother myself for the tadabbur and tafakkur until I have a practical life issue before me.

For me some of the Quranic guidance was for the past times (and may become relevant again in furture), some of it is for the present and some of it is for the future times and life. Please dont be confused by 'some'. It is has not been used to bifurcate the Quran rather just to convey a sense and/or a meaning.

I just believe in what has been said about life of Jesus (AS) in the Quran, as it does not bother my practical life at the moment so I have never given it any serious thought. As I have not done my tadabbur and tafakkur over this topic, so am unable to give u my personal opinion. Same goes for all the other topics relating to mutahsbihat.

Unlike Aleph, I have not been formally trained in the Quranic and Islamic sciences, so need time to read and think about such issues/questions. If u insist then I would need to read in details and think about it. After that I would be in a position to say something. The most I can stick my neck out for at this moment is that some of the mutashabihat of 5-6 centuries ago may have become the muhkmat of today and similarly for the future.......

Finally, having a little insight into human nature/psyche, nature of scientific inquiry and using a little logic, I can say/repeat that our skepticism would always be a step of ahead of our understanding of the state and art of knowledge/science.

i hardly like to argue so i couldnt reply ur post 62 but this is gud that u will read and think. kindly also include in ur thinking that ALLAH in the essence of Quran is gaib/gayb or hazir, and does ilm ul gaib really exist?

 

[ZenoInTheZoo]

i hardly like to argue so i couldnt reply ur post 62 but this is gud that u will read and think. kindly also include in ur thinking that ALLAH in the essence of Quran is gaib/gayb or hazir, and does ilm ul gaib really exist?

Sure.....I will keep your suggestion in mind.