Armys one-day spending equivalent to one-year education ministry budget

saint

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
seriously?

Being in politics doesnt mean being in POWER.

How many years have the generals ruled the country as compared to the politicians?

Do the math.

You mean the moment they go out of government, their minds stop thinking and they forget every thing about politics ?
Politicians can not conveniently absolve themselves by simply pointing fingers to the generals .. and why do we have this notion that dictator is only the one who wears uniform ? were sharif brethren any different from any dictator ?
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
You mean the moment they go out of government, their minds stop thinking and they forget every thing about politics ?
Politicians can not conveniently absolve themselves by simply pointing fingers to the generals .. and why do we have this notion that dictator is only the one who wears uniform ? were sharif brethren any different from any dictator ?

Fine. Dont absolve the politicians. Hang them. Im not saying anything to defend their actions.

Why are you defending the uniformed politicians then?
 

Star Gazer

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Bhainse kay aagay been bajanay walee baat ho gaee hai!
For the love of God give up this ridiculous campaign against the Army and pick up the banner to state how much money is being looted by the beloved-good-for-nothing-politicians-who-like-to-blame-every-one-else-for-their-incompetent-selfish-gains.
Every day the people of Pakistan spend 50 lakh rupees on the session of national Assembly only, add to this the millions that we are made to spend on this army of ministers and state ministers and special advisers, My fair guess is around 10 crore rupees daily are spent.
This comes to around 3.5 billion dollars every year.
Add to this 8 billion dollars that flow out of the country because these corrupt politicians are not ready to make laws that will safeguard the investments of people like you and me and because they do not know/care to make laws that will make a level playing field for all.
Plus add to this the about 10 billion dollars that are lost because of corruption and pilferage which has nothing to do with the Army, it has only to do with the democratic-puppet-leaders.

(((((((((Net total of money being squandered because of puppet-not-for-any-good-politicians comes around to 21.5 billion dollars a year.))))))))))))))



NOW do the math and tell us who should be bridled? I may be off a few billion dollars but hey does it matter in this context, but I would welcome if I could be given the correct figures as to these amounts.
 

gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
@awan4ever

Its not good way of registering ur protest. Galiyan nikal kar kya mile ga. Gazoo theek keh raha hai. Why u never ask about Zardari's swiss accounts and other corruption of Politicians?

ah mr awan4never is at it again to piss me off? LOL well i do appreciate the devloper who developed 'ignore list' (bigsmile)

khan saheb, your are right. Come to think of it I have never read his post disgracing and accusing the civil leadership, even before I put him iggy bin. Thats what led me to believe that awan4never is Indian paid or Indian sympathizer OR a qadiani, the worst kind of ungrateful to the country and downright dushman-e-Pakistan, just like faqira786


But you know what :

جلتی لکڑی خود ہی چھوٹی ہوتی جاتی ہے
 
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Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)
اگر ملٹری اینٹی پاکستان اور اینٹی عوام پالیسیاں اور کام چھوڑ دے تو شاید پھر یہ بھاری بھرکم بجٹ بھی اتنا نہ چبھے. دکھ اسوقت ہوتا ہے کہ جب انہی پیسوں سے پاکستانی اور افغانی نہتے شہریوں کا بہیمانہ قتل عام کیا جاتا ہے. ان جرنیلوں نے بھائی کو بھائی کا جانی دشمن بنا دیا ہے. مسلم خون اتنا سستہ شاید ہی کبھی دیکھا ہو

All this war hysteria is created by the Pro-USA generals.

Pak Army is the only army in the world which always "win" "War" against their own people, otherwise their Radars can't detect US helicopter but their budget is the highest as compare to any sector.

If you start counting the numbers of Plot they got they are numerous. e.g. One of my cousin has retired from Army as Lieutenant Colonel (just imagine colonel) and I can't count his plots (though legal). I think he got about 6-7 plots and properties from govt. on easy installments. Now just imagine about high ranks i.e. Full Colonel, Brigadier, Major General, Lieutenant Generals & Full Generals....They have simply looted ( the most) this country.
 

Nice2MU

President (40k+ posts)
oh yaar army ki jaan bhe chorou.

مولانہ صاحب، لوگ تو آرمی کی جان چهوڑنے کے لیے تیار هیں لیکن وہ (آئی ایس آئی) همارے لوگوں کی جان لینے کے درپے هیں.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Bhainse kay aagay been bajanay walee baat ho gaee hai!
For the love of God give up this ridiculous campaign against the Army and pick up the banner to state how much money is being looted by the beloved-good-for-nothing-politicians-who-like-to-blame-every-one-else-for-their-incompetent-selfish-gains.
Every day the people of Pakistan spend 50 lakh rupees on the session of national Assembly only, add to this the millions that we are made to spend on this army of ministers and state ministers and special advisers, My fair guess is around 10 crore rupees daily are spent.
This comes to around 3.5 billion dollars every year.
Add to this 8 billion dollars that flow out of the country because these corrupt politicians are not ready to make laws that will safeguard the investments of people like you and me and because they do not know/care to make laws that will make a level playing field for all.
Plus add to this the about 10 billion dollars that are lost because of corruption and pilferage which has nothing to do with the Army, it has only to do with the democratic-puppet-leaders.

(((((((((Net total of money being squandered because of puppet-not-for-any-good-politicians comes around to 21.5 billion dollars a year.))))))))))))))



NOW do the math and tell us who should be bridled? I may be off a few billion dollars but hey does it matter in this context, but I would welcome if I could be given the correct figures as to these amounts.

You know what, I can come up with pretty good figures of how the Army is looting the country but then when I raise questions you run away with your tail between your legs. This has happened several times in threads where I detailed the corruption in NLC, Askari Bank, Palm Golf Course and other ventures.

Heres some further reading on 'daily expenditures' :

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=50916&Cat=2&dt=6/5/2011

Pakistan spends Rs1.35 billion per day over the three armed forces just under the head of salaries and operating expenses only, Rs8.60 million daily on the president and prime minister, Rs7.8 million per day on the Senate and National Assembly

A further break-up indicates that Rs640.37 million will be utilized by the Army per day; a sum equivalent to the running year’s budgetary allocation for the ministry of education.

The allocated amount for the entire year for the education ministry last year, Rs640 million, is spent in a day by the Army for meeting its salaries and operating expenses only.

Likewise, the health ministry’s running year’s budget was less than the one-day spending of the air force. The ministry that has also been devolved now got budgetary allocation of Rs269 million for 2010-2011 whereas the air force’s per day spending is Rs290.86 million. Pakistan Navy’s spending per day is Rs141.80 million.

How much is spent on the ISI, the premier intelligence agency, is anybody’s guess as the budgetary allocation for the agency is not included in the amount specified for the armed forces.

Lets break down the budget allocation percentage wise:

We spend roughly 50% on loan servicing.
We spend roughly 30% on Army.
That leaves the politicians and poor civilians with 20% of the budget to 'play' around with.

So using your calculations of how much we Pakistanis loot, if I am to extrapolate the level of corruption based on percentages of what both parties i.e. military and civilians get we can see who will end up with the bigger part of looted national exchequer.

(and please dont say theres no corruption in the Military because then I will have to go back and dig out the big cases again..also I have worked in government procurement and I have seen the quotations sent to the military...they buy stuff 2-3 times the price our company buys so we can all guess who is pocketing the extra cash..hint: its not the civilians)

For the love of God give up this ridiculous campaign against the Army and pick up the banner to state how much money is being looted by the beloved-good-for-nothing-politicians-who-like-to-blame-every-one-else-for-their-incompetent-selfish-gains.

Why do you get so pissed off if someone asks for accountability of the institution which gets the biggest chunk of the pie?
Have I said anything which is factually incorrect? Have I spread falsehoods? Have I posted anything which I made up myself and does not exist in reality? Do you know how much a general is worth when he retires? almost 10 Million USD!
*Figure from Dr. Ayesha Siddiqas research
**Dr. Ayesha worked as a civil servant and was closely associated for many years to military accounts and spending.


Yes you will call Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa a puppet of the West, a takfiri/rafidi/cia/mossad agent and accuse the west of funding her research etc. but then if she is lying why did Musharraf go about banning her book? Why not come out with a rebuttal of her claims or file charges against her for lying against the military?
Because that would take the case to court and then the military would have to open up its accounts to the courts to prove Dr. Ayesha wrong. But that would also let the cat out of the bag and so its easier to just ban the book and start maligning the writer as an 'agent'. The usual strategy to discredit any opposition.

NOW do the math and tell us who should be bridled?

You do the math now and tell me who needs to be held accountable first and foremost?

(People like you who love the Army blindly automatically assume that people like me who criticize its actions are somehow saying that the politicians are good and they should be allowed to get away with the looting. On the contrary, I am asking for accountability of the most powerful and most rich institution first. Then w can get to the others or even simultaneously is ok by me.)

In the end I will leave you with this gem :

Even former military officials were willing to concede that more oversight may be needed.
“Effective oversight of the defence budget is a must. It is also good for the country and the democracy,” said retired Lt Gen Talat Masood. He said unless the government introduces real oversight of the defence budget it will remain dependent on the army.
Defence budgets have never been debated in Parliament and are always assumed to be a given during the presentation of the annual money bill. In the past, defence budgets were frequently limited to one line. Over the last few years, that number has since expanded to three lines but no further details are provided.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/165546/defence-budget-to-rise-by-12/


UPDATED:

Unjustified expenditure: Major irregularities surface in armed forces’ accounts
Embezzlement, ineffective internal controls led to Rs56.5 billion in discrepancies.
ISLAMABAD:
The auditor-general of Pakistan has unearthed massive financial irregularities amounting to Rs56.5 billion in the accounts of the armed forces during fiscal year 2011.
According to the Audit Report 2011 on accounts of defence services, irregularities occurred due to negligence, ineffective internal controls, embezzlement and misuse of authority by officers of the armed forces.
Around 330 contract agreements were concluded from 2008 to 2010 without following the procedure laid down in the Public Procurement Rules 2004, the auditors observed.
When they pointed out irregularities, the executive stated that the ministry’s instructions were received in June 2010. The auditors said that the reply is not tenable.
Auditors found that the Pakistan Army blocked Rs3 billion in funds due to unnecessary procurement and inappropriate storage of 1,385 new vehicles at the Central Ordnance Depot, Karachi. The vehicles have not been used for the last three years.
The report discovered excess transfer of funds to the Frontier Works Organisation (FWO) for procurement of bullet-proof jackets. Out of the Rs424.2 million allocated for them, the FWO has to refund some Rs385 million in addition to the loss it incurred on account of risk and expense contracts after the supplier, Musterhaft Pvt Ltd, failed to provide more than 1,000 jackets.
The expenditure incurred on building material purchased for renovation by the military is unaccounted for since there is no record of the quantity procured and its subsequent use. The irregularities amount to Rs52.7 million in Kharian, Sialkot and Lahore cantonments. Auditors stated that executive authorities could not prove that repair work was carried out on self-help basis. Irregularities in purchase of pre-fabricated accommodation for UN missions amounted to Rs92 million, in addition to payment of Rs14.6 million as General Sales Tax, which needs to be recovered from the supplier.
Irregularities amounting to Rs6 billion surfaced in the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, on account of irregular conclusion of contracts and procurement of goods during the current fiscal year. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) lost Rs102 million due to non-recovery of five per cent rent on flying allowance from General Duty Pilots in the past 20 years. The record was not provided on request. Auditors observed that this amounts to blatant disobedience and ineffectual administration. Failure to deposit rent in the government treasury caused a loss of Rs14.6 million by the PAF Academy, Risalpur.
The navy failed to transfer 50 per cent accommodation charges paid by foreign trainees in the government treasury, resulting in the loss of $65,516. Auditors also observed that Rs6 million incurred on excess issue of food items in PNS Bahadur and PNS Mehran for the year 2009-10 needs to be reimbursed. An amount of Rs76 million has still not been recovered by the Military Accounts General after irregularities were discovered on account of unauthorised payments to reemployed officers of the Pakistan Navy in 2009-10.
Military Lands and Cantonment inflicted a loss of Rs181 million to the cantonment fund due to irregularities in awarding lease. Cantonment Board, Lahore lost Rs30 million due to its failure to revise the tax rate on immovable property. Fraud and embezzlement caused a loss of Rs68 million to Cantonment Board, Rawalpindi in 2008. Failure to recover Rs97 million in dues added to the losses incurred by various boards. The auditors pointed out the irregularities and observed that their replies were not satisfactory.

Published in The Express Tribune, June 6th, 2011.
 
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awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
ah mr awan4never is at it again to piss me off? LOL well i do appreciate the devloper who developed 'ignore list' (bigsmile)

khan saheb, your are right. Come to think of it I have never read his post disgracing and accusing the civil leadership, even before I put him iggy bin. Thats what led me to believe that awan4never is Indian paid or Indian sympathizer OR a qadiani, the worst kind of ungrateful to the country and downright dushman-e-Pakistan, just like faqira786


But you know what :

جلتی لکڑی خود ہی چھوٹی ہوتی جاتی ہے

Ignorant people have ignore lists. They cant face tough questions. That is all.
 

saint

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Why do you get so pissed off if someone asks for accountability of the institution which gets the biggest chunk of the pie?
Have I said anything which is factually incorrect? Have I spread falsehoods? Have I posted anything which I made up myself and does not exist in reality? Do you know how much a general is worth when he retires? almost 10 Million USD!
*Figure from Dr. Ayesha Siddiqas research
**Dr. Ayesha worked as a civil servant and was closely associated for many years to military accounts and spending.


Yes you will call Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa a puppet of the West, a takfiri/rafidi/cia/mossad agent and accuse the west of funding her research etc. but then if she is lying why did Musharraf go about banning her book? Why not come out with a rebuttal of her claims or file charges against her for lying against the military?
Because that would take the case to court and then the military would have to open up its accounts to the courts to prove Dr. Ayesha wrong.


You do the math now and tell me who needs to be held accountable first and foremost?

(People like you who love the Army blindly automatically assume that people like me who criticize its actions are somehow saying that the politicians are good and they should be allowed to get away with the looting. On the contrary, I am asking for accountability of the most powerful and most rich institution first. Then w can get to the others or even simultaneously is ok by me.)

Recently javed jabbar interview was posted here and he cleared, army budget is somewhere between 16-20% ... same was told by Musharraf ... now either Ayesha Siddiqa is lying or Javed Jabbar is a liar. If writing a book makes some one creditble and right then Javed Jabbar should be taken more seriously .. to me Ayeha Siddiqa made a fortune out of this book .. her whole career based on it

For the sake of discussion even if we agree to all the misdoing of army ... It leads us to more basic question .. who would do the accontability ?

Problem of People like Ayesha Siddiqa is, they are living in lala land .. all their rants are without any viable solution
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
care to share who will do the accountability ?

Accountability means we need to get the Army to be open about their accounts. Which means it should be discussed openly in the Parliament and their should be a representative of to answer their questions. Technically it is the minister for defense but the Army has never nominated him to reply on their behalf.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
This has been already clarified in many talk shows .. defense budget is provided even item wise to ministry of defense

Yes it has been clarified but that is no way to work in a democracy. The budget debates take place in the Parliament and that is where it should be discussed in detail. Giving hand outs at the Ministry of Defense after the budget is passed achieves nothing.
 

rana14801

Senator (1k+ posts)
Who is ruling now in the country? and this is the worst situation ever after the creation of Pakistan.

Who is Head of the State? Reply me in a single word Zardari or Kiyani?
bhai ahmedalikhan, this awan 4ever seems to be paid agent from our enemies and if u keep repying him he will irritate u to an extent where u or any one else start using some indecent language. he is an absolute idiot,anti Pak army and a baf..n. i wish there was an option like before to ban him , i would have been the first to do so.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Recently javed jabbar interview was posted here and he cleared, army budget is somewhere between 16-20% ... same was told by Musharraf ... now either Ayesha Siddiqa is lying or Javed Jabbar is a liar. If writing a book makes some one creditble and right then Javed Jabbar should be taken more seriously .. to me Ayeha Siddiqa made a fortune out of this book .. her whole career based on it

For the sake of discussion even if we agree to all the misdoing of army ... It leads us to more basic question .. who would do the accontability ?

Problem of People like Ayesha Siddiqa is, they are living in lala land .. all their rants are without any viable solution

If you had cared to read the fine print of how this 20% revision has been achieved in the article I posted above you would have seen in the very opening paragraph the following :

The ‘stated’ defence budget for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2012 is likely to be Rs495 billion, an increase of Rs53 billion or 12 per cent over the previous year’s ‘stated’ budget, a rate of increase that is nominally below inflation. This, however, masks actual defence expenditures in several ways, including transferring military pensions to civilian expenses and counting ‘security’ operations separately.

In addition, military pension bill is likely to be included in the civilian side of the federal budget, continuing an accounting trick first employed by the Musharraf administration, designed to lower the military budget while continuing expenses at the same levels.

Like I said before if Ayesha Siddiqa is falsifying and lying she can easily be taken to court for maligning the 'good name' of the Army. Why hasnt the Army done that? You should think about it.
 

awan4ever

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
bhai ahmedalikhan, this awan 4ever seems to be paid agent from our enemies and if u keep repying him he will irritate u to an extent where u or any one else start using some indecent language. he is an absolute idiot,anti Pak army and a baf..n. i wish there was an option like before to ban him , i would have been the first to do so.

Hahahaha...Very 'smart' suggestions. BAN EVERYONE!!!
 

saint

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Like I said before if Ayesha Siddiqa is falsifying and lying she can easily be taken to court for maligning the 'good name' of the Army. Why hasnt the Army done that? You should think about it.

looking at the current situation where every blame blindly goes to army/isi .. how difficult it would be for them to put one bullet in her head .. but they don't do it ... we are unnecessarily hell bent on maligning the whole institute .. rather I will take a liberty to say only institute left
 

saint

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Yes it has been clarified but that is no way to work in a democracy. The budget debates take place in the Parliament and that is where it should be discussed in detail. Giving hand outs at the Ministry of Defense after the budget is passed achieves nothing.

why in parliament ? then we should just abolish ministry of defense .. who appoints defense minister ? like any other ministry defense ministry is also an interface between parliament and army. who stops parliament not to discuss it ? parliament will never do that because if they did it army would ask them to have the same rule for all other institutes as well ... then no kick backs .. no embezzlements :-)

You are not looking/thinking in terms of solution ... only solution is to vote for right people ... nothing else .. if you got any .. I am all keen to listen to it
 

saint

Politcal Worker (100+ posts)
Accountability means we need to get the Army to be open about their accounts. Which means it should be discussed openly in the Parliament and their should be a representative of to answer their questions. Technically it is the minister for defense but the Army has never nominated him to reply on their behalf.

hmmm... seems we are getting to the point .. how parliament would ask army to do that when they (politicians) themselves are looters ? ... they are way way more vulnerable than army and they are very well aware of this fact ... parliament will never do it

if we keep on maligning army ... best we can get is another institute like police and FIA run by shmuck called rehman malik.
Allow me to say actually politicians are responsible to destroy army even .. they always want to appoint least competent, junior and weak person as COAS and ISI head to save their own a*** and yet want best results .. don't you find it illogical and moronic ?