Armys one-day spending equivalent to one-year education ministry budget

[gazoomartian]

looking at the current situation where every blame blindly goes to army/isi .. how difficult it would be for them to put one bullet in her head .. but they don't do it ... we are unnecessarily hell bent on maligning the whole institute .. rather I will take a liberty to say only institute left

Its NOT unnecessarily at all saint saheb. awan4never has definite plan to create rift between people and the army, on behalf of someone else. With him on the siasat, usually Indians go on coffee break.

 

[awan4ever]

looking at the current situation where every blame blindly goes to army/isi .. how difficult it would be for them to put one bullet in her head .. but they don't do it ... we are unnecessarily hell bent on maligning the whole institute .. rather I will take a liberty to say only institute left

They already put bullets in many heads. Salim Shehzad and Saba Dashtiyari being the latest examples.
You can derive your conclusions and I will derive mine. WE both have our own logic. Let the readers decide which one they like.

 

[gazoomartian]

bhai ahmedalikhan, this awan 4ever seems to be paid agent from our enemies and if u keep repying him he will irritate u to an extent where u or any one else start using some indecent language. he is an absolute idiot,anti Pak army and a baf..n. i wish there was an option like before to ban him , i would have been the first to do so.

I hear you brother. I wonder if he is one the terrorist. If he continues to have this kind of hatred against the army in his heart, he could well become a suicide bomber. may Allah keep him from getting to that point of blowing himself up, Ameen

 

[awan4ever]

why in parliament ? then we should just abolish ministry of defense .. who appoints defense minister ? like any other ministry defense ministry is also an interface between parliament and army. who stops parliament not to discuss it ? parliament will never do that because if they did it army would ask them to have the same rule for all other institutes as well ... then no kick backs .. no embezzlements :-)

You are not looking/thinking in terms of solution ... only solution is to vote for right people ... nothing else .. if you got any .. I am all keen to listen to it

I think you do not know how the Parliament and Ministries are supposed to work. The ministry is a tool of the Parliament to run a department or set of departments effectively. However the Ministry is answerable to the Parliament and reports back to it.
The Army does not allow the ministry to present its detailed requirements in the Parliament. It just gives a lump sum requirement. If they gave details they would have to endanger the commercial aspects of their ventures such as DHA, Askari schemes etc. which the Parliament might cut as unnecessary burden on the exchequer.

Can you name any institute which gets even half the budget of the Army and does not allow it to be discussed in the Parliament? Im curious.

 

[awan4ever]

hmmm... seems we are getting to the point .. how parliament would ask army to do that when they (politicians) themselves are looters ? ... they are way way more vulnerable than army and they are very well aware of this fact ... parliament will never do it

if we keep on maligning army ... best we can get is another institute like police and FIA run by shmuck called rehman malik.
Allow me to say actually politicians are responsible to destroy army even .. they always want to appoint least competent, junior and weak person as COAS and ISI head to save their own a*** and yet want best results .. don't you find it illogical and moronic ?

Please try to differentiate between 'maligning' the Army and 'asking for accountability of 30% of the budget'.

 

[awan4ever]

I hear you brother. I wonder if he is one the terrorist. If he continues to have this kind of hatred against the army in his heart, he could well become a suicide bomber. may Allah keep him from getting to that point of blowing himself up, Ameen

Im one of the ANTI-Terrorist, anti-Jihadi, anti ALL Taliban, anti-Kashmiri Jihadis, anti-military supported jihadis present on this forum.

Kaisa ch**** hay ye Gazoo....kabhi mujhay Indian or kabhi suicide bomber in the making kehta hay???!! :D
I think he doesnt know how different the two accusations are??

Budha sathya gya hay bilkul!!!
Whats the number for any mental institution in Canada? :p

 

[saint]

Please try to differentiate between 'maligning' the Army and 'asking for accountability of 30% of the budget'.

I wish I could but the timing of this discussion is not allowing me to ... it is not the best time to do it ... it is the time when we have to stand behind them .. we are passing through a rough time .. doing it now is nothing less than a back stabbing .. even if we wanted to cut the army budget this is definitely not a good time for this discussion

it is a time to focus on rest of the 70% .. what are we getting out of it ? how to best utilize it ... how to get best people in to increase it .. how to get credible people in to start accountability ... believe me these are much more important and tough issues to deal with

 

[saint]

I think you do not know how the Parliament and Ministries are supposed to work. The ministry is a tool of the Parliament to run a department or set of departments effectively. However the Ministry is answerable to the Parliament and reports back to it.
The Army does not allow the ministry to present its detailed requirements in the Parliament. It just gives a lump sum requirement. If they gave details they would have to endanger the commercial aspects of their ventures such as DHA, Askari schemes etc. which the Parliament might cut as unnecessary burden on the exchequer.
Can you name any institute which gets even half the budget of the Army and does not allow it to be discussed in the Parliament? Im curious.

every department prepares budget according to their needs and pass on to their respective ministries. If budget is within their means ministry would deal directly otherwise they will go back to parliament for approval and ask more funds depending on the nature of request. Departments do not directly interact with parliament they go through the respective ministries, in this context ministry acts as an interface between different departments and parliament

that's easy one .. parliament itself is such an institute who wants to talk about anything and every thing but not themselves. They don't want to discuss that corruption is rampant with in their own cadres .. there are plenty of tax evaders sitting in there but they yet want to ask more from people .. funny is n't it ?

how can you do accountability of others if you are not willing or start it from your own .. it never works .. how can I ask some body to be honest when I am dishonest ?
it is not limited to army ... real world works this way only

 

[saint]

They already put bullets in many heads. Salim Shehzad and Saba Dashtiyari being the latest examples.
You can derive your conclusions and I will derive mine. WE both have our own logic. Let the readers decide which one they like.

lol, that's exactly I was talking about when they know blame in either case is going to them why not one more bullet ? Salim Shehzad was small fry as compared to Ayesha Siddiqa ... she exposed so called all the figures .. why not her ? these institutes do not work this way .. based on hate and personal feuds

 

[awan4ever]

I wish I could but the timing of this discussion is not allowing me to ... it is not the best time to do it ... it is the time when we have to stand behind them .. we are passing through a rough time .. doing it now is nothing less than a back stabbing .. even if we wanted to cut the army budget this is definitely not a good time for this discussion

it is a time to focus on rest of the 70% .. what are we getting out of it ? how to best utilize it ... how to get best people in to increase it .. how to get credible people in to start accountability ... believe me these are much more important and tough issues to deal with

Theres never been a good time to do this discussion for the past 60 years apparently.
look where that has led us. This is not just fiscal accountabiity, it is also accountability for subverting the constitution for over half the total life of the country.
There will always be a 'clear and present danger' to national interests whenever you raise the specter of accountability of the Army. They will always have a reason ready for you and me as to why its not a 'good time' to do such an exercise but I believe now is the best time since the Army which was our most loved institution made reckless policies given our lenient nature towards their antics. It is high time we asked them to stop messing around with policy making and do the job they are hired to do i.e. defense, where they are seriously lacking at the moment.

 

[awan4ever]

every department prepares budget according to their needs and pass on to their respective ministries. If budget is within their means ministry would deal directly otherwise they will go back to parliament for approval and ask more funds depending on the nature of request. Departments do not directly interact with parliament they go through the respective ministries, in this context ministry acts as an interface between different departments and parliament

that's easy one .. parliament itself is such an institute who wants to talk about anything and every thing but not themselves. They don't want to discuss that corruption is rampant with in their own cadres .. there are plenty of tax evaders sitting in there but they yet want to ask more from people .. funny is n't it ?

how can you do accountability of others if you are not willing or start it from your own .. it never works .. how can I ask some body to be honest when I am dishonest ?
it is not limited to army ... real world works this way only

No thats not how it works. All budget whether within means or not is sent to the parliament where it is debated. Except for the Army. They just send a lump some figure on various major heads such as operations, maintenance, procurement etc. The details of what has to be maintained and what has to be procured and why is not presented to the Parliament.

YEs the PArlimentarians are corrupt but we are talking about regining in a bigger beast i.e. the Army which is beyond the reach of any accountabiloty. The politicians end up rounded out of the assemblies on a regular basis atleast and though it is not a functional way to deal with things but that will evolve soon. Already people are fed up with old faces and people like Imran are making a dent into the old guard.
So we can hope for an evolution there, however the Army has been untouchable on every level to this day. When was the last time a general was tried in a court of law and convicted?

I can give examples from politicians, politically motivated you might say but they did spend life behind bars nonetheless. Never a general. The closest was Admiral Mansurul Haq and he didnt spend a day in jail, he was given a plea bargain by the military to return some money and go away to USA.

 

[awan4ever]

lol, that's exactly I was talking about when they know blame in either case is going to them why not one more bullet ? Salim Shehzad was small fry as compared to Ayesha Siddiqa ... she exposed so called all the figures .. why not her ? these institutes do not work this way .. based on hate and personal feuds

I wonder why Salim Shahzad went to HRW to tell them that he had been threatened by the ISI before he was picked up?
I wonder why Umar cheema was beaten into silence?
There are many examples that the journalists have spoken about where some Col. would call them up for 'tea' and tell them to shut the hell up. I wonder why the ISI would do that?

As for taking out Ayesha Siddiqa , she is a former civil servant and not a journalist. The political ramifications of taking 'care' of her are far too big for the ISI to handle. She has made a very big splash so 'taking her out' is not that easy. All fingers will point one way and one way only.
If you think the ISI is some kind of Holy Fraternity of Pious Warriors fighting to save and preserve the word of God then you are sadly mistaken. They are an extension of the Military Machine and a tool to exercise control.

 

[saint]

I wonder why Salim Shahzad went to HRW to tell them that he had been threatened by the ISI before he was picked up?
I wonder why Umar cheema was beaten into silence?
There are many examples that the journalists have spoken about where some Col. would call them up for 'tea' and tell them to shut the hell up. I wonder why the ISI would do that?

As for taking out Ayesha Siddiqa , she is a former civil servant and not a journalist. The political ramifications of taking 'care' of her are far too big for the ISI to handle. She has made a very big splash so 'taking her out' is not that easy. All fingers will point one way and one way only.
If you think the ISI is some kind of Holy Fraternity of Pious Warriors fighting to save and preserve the word of God then you are sadly mistaken. They are an extension of the Military Machine and a tool to exercise control.

no, you are getting me wrong .. I have no doubt that Salim Shah would n't has been warned by ISI ... if proper control and procedures would not be exerted on these personnels they are more dangerous for their own officers/institute even. Every state creates these killing machines and they have be dealt with extra care and put in under tight control. It would be least possible to let them loose

intelligence is a dangerous business specially in current situation, when it is difficult to figure out who is working for whom .. small mistake can cost you life .. and same is true for ISI personnel also .. Salim Shehzad most likely crossed red line some where .. it is very remote possibility that he was assassinated because of that column .. specially when it was already published

If Murtaza Bhutto can be assassinated in day light while sister is sitting PM ... what chance Siddiqa stands for political ramification .. I highly doubt so

 

[saint]

No thats not how it works. All budget whether within means or not is sent to the parliament where it is debated. Except for the Army. They just send a lump some figure on various major heads such as operations, maintenance, procurement etc. The details of what has to be maintained and what has to be procured and why is not presented to the Parliament.

YEs the PArlimentarians are corrupt but we are talking about regining in a bigger beast i.e. the Army which is beyond the reach of any accountabiloty. The politicians end up rounded out of the assemblies on a regular basis atleast and though it is not a functional way to deal with things but that will evolve soon. Already people are fed up with old faces and people like Imran are making a dent into the old guard.
So we can hope for an evolution there, however the Army has been untouchable on every level to this day. When was the last time a general was tried in a court of law and convicted?

I can give examples from politicians, politically motivated you might say but they did spend life behind bars nonetheless. Never a general. The closest was Admiral Mansurul Haq and he didnt spend a day in jail, he was given a plea bargain by the military to return some money and go away to USA.

my understanding is different from your's in this regard, though we have discussed item wise detail is submitted to ministry of defense
and parliament is free to get this detail and discuss as much as they want. To me this point is raised to deviate attention from the real
issues .. it is petty detail we are getting in to


The moment you say "YEs the PArlimentarians are corrupt " that's exactly the point where chain of command breaks. We need to fix this system break down before moving to next step. You are hoping least corrupt (be honest here) but most powerful to submit to most corrupt and least powerful .. quite unrealistic scenario

I want my streets to be clean and litter free, my town to be safe from decoits and thieves, education system to be revised,my property not to be sold off to four other people,consumer rights to be provided,crack down on fake medicines,pure milk for kids,clean drinking water,police man to be held responsible,no road encroachments,speedy justice for all,jungles erosion to be stopped to protect environment,our women and girls to be safe out there .. lonoonng list .. these are the real problems a common person faces every day... his life life is miserable because of all these issues. Most of these issues are purely because of poor governance and lack of concern. Common man life is least bothered whether army buys AK47 or MI6 .. give it a serious thought

I seriously fail to understand why people don't furiously demand and discuss all this and just want to discuss army and foreign policy only

 

[dukelondon]

first u have to follow the step of our prophet the u have the right to say any thing to others

How do you know that he is not following the steps of Rehmatullil Alameen (SAWW) ?? Do you know him personally OR you have a direct connection with the angels or something??? Are you a Prophet or Wali?

 

[awan4ever]

my understanding is different from your's in this regard, though we have discussed item wise detail is submitted to ministry of defense
and parliament is free to get this detail and discuss as much as they want. To me this point is raised to deviate attention from the real
issues .. it is petty detail we are getting in to


The moment you say "YEs the PArlimentarians are corrupt " that's exactly the point where chain of command breaks. We need to fix this system break down before moving to next step. You are hoping least corrupt (be honest here) but most powerful to submit to most corrupt and least powerful .. quite unrealistic scenario

I want my streets to be clean and litter free, my town to be safe from decoits and thieves, education system to be revised,my property not to be sold off to four other people,consumer rights to be provided,crack down on fake medicines,pure milk for kids,clean drinking water,police man to be held responsible,no road encroachments,speedy justice for all,jungles erosion to be stopped to protect environment,our women and girls to be safe out there .. lonoonng list .. these are the real problems a common person faces every day... his life life is miserable because of all these issues. Most of these issues are purely because of poor governance and lack of concern. Common man life is least bothered whether army buys AK47 or MI6 .. give it a serious thought

I seriously fail to understand why people don't furiously demand and discuss all this and just want to discuss army and foreign policy only

The common man is least bothered what the Army buys but he is getting bothered that they buy it with 30% share of the GDP which leaves education, health and basic utilities to be under funded as I have already pointed out.

In dire economic conditions everyone looks at their major expenditures and the justification for that expenditure. Our major expenditure is our Military so we need to scrutinize it with a fine comb so that we dont dole out free cash to them.

You link every problem we have to the 20% share that the civilians are left with to run the nation of 180 million people but you seem to have no problem with the 30% that ends up on only 600,000 people serving in the Army. I see that as a very big concern.

 

[cashkash]

[video]http://youtu.be/tloRE9JbaE4[/video]

 

[cashkash]

i love army but general r same they live like king.

 

[mrcritic]

[MENTION=9205]awan[/MENTION] sahab - achay tu abh kia karein? Army/ISI/Navy kay sarey generals ko maar dein? sari defense ki buying chor dein? ( I agree we need to spend more on education/health!)

Mulk is waqt Nazuk tareen halat mein hai, so much so that God Forbid another 1971 is waiting to happen - is that what you want? will that make you happy?

ACCOUNTABILTY IS A MUST NO DOUBT for EVERY IDARA.

you and gazoo's fight is now on EGO basis - so please take that somewhere else.

WE ALL NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW and What we should respond to foreign media and local media - 2 different things/approaches. Dushman to humein torney pur tuley hi huey hain, magar hum mein se bhi bahut hain jo yeh kaam kurney mein inka sath dey rahey hain intentionally or unintentionally!

 

[awan4ever]

achay tu abh kia karein?

Ab ye kerain keh sab say pehlay Army say policy making kay ikhtiarat wapis lein aur Parliament mein trasfer kerain. Chahay jitni bhe jahil hay Parliament they still represent the masses better than the generals.
An example of this is that the Balochis were never this alienated in times of civilian governments as they are since the day Musharaf unilaterally decided to kill Akbar Bugti. Today we cant set foot in Balochistan.

Im sure you will quote examples of the inefficiency and buffoonery of the Parliamentarians but then please keep in mind that the current 'genius' plans of creating local religious extremists in the name of Jihad and later for getting strategic depth in Afghanistan are all Army made and look where they have led us today.
So the generals are not really extra ordinary in policy making either but the politicians have a lot of restrictions and checks and balances that they need to keep in mind so they tend not to alienate the local populace of the country when they go about making policies.

sari defense ki buying chor dein?

Have I said that? Im saying they should open up all accounts and put all major expenses before the Parliament for approval. Take a round of Rawalpindi and Lahore and see how many new Askari Apartments and Villas are popping up in these hard economic times. Take a look at the rapid development of DHA Lahore and Islamabad. Where is all the money coming from?

Remember when the Parliament tried to construct new living areas recently at the cost of around a billion rupees? It was presented in the Parliament and the public pressure made them ditch the extravagance on account of the bad economic state of Pakistan. Now try to get just one Askari Development shut down in a similar way. How do you go about doing it? Any ideas? The Army doesnt present it to the Parliament so they cant do much about it.

Mulk is waqt Nazuk tareen halat mein hai, so much so that God Forbid another 1971 is waiting to happen - is that what you want?

That is exactly what I dont want but since we are rapidly declining towards that scenario we should open our eyes and see how the defenders of the nation are performing.
Are they doing the job they are supposed to do?
With regards to Balochistan they certainly arent. Again they have made a policy of eliminating anyone who is raising a dissenting voice. If this keeps going on the dissenting voices will become to many to silence and that will lead to another Dhaka like debacle.
Are we doing our duty by asking them what kind of policy they are pursuing in the troubled region?
Are they answering our queries i.e. telling the parliament what they are doing there and how it is solving the problem?
Are they allowing the media free access to the troubled areas so that we can see they have nothing to hide?

ACCOUNTABILTY IS A MUST NO DOUBT for EVERY IDARA.

Then lets start with the 'Idara' which holds the most power, takes the biggest chunk of the budget and has ruled DIRECTLY for over half the total life of the country.

you and gazoo's fight is now on EGO basis - so please take that somewhere else.

Theres no where else. I dont have a visa for Canada and he is a looser who sits there in comfort and tells us how to run our lives here. So I guess the fught has to stay here! ;)

WE ALL NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW and What we should respond to foreign media and local media - 2 different things/approaches. Dushman to humein torney pur tuley hi huey hain, magar hum mein se bhi bahut hain jo yeh kaam kurney mein inka sath dey rahey hain intentionally or unintentionally!

I have laid out my views on how we should respond to the current affairs of state. Most people dont like it becasue they are too brainwashed into beleieving that the Army can do no wrong or that we should wait for a better time to ask for accountability. I think now is the best time becasue if we dont stop the decline now, there wont be a better time later.

Dushman hamain tornay per is leaye tulay huay hein kyunkeh hum nay khud aisay halaat paida keaye huay hein jinko wo utilize jer rahay hein. We need to fix our own weaknesses before we go after them because as long as we dont address our weaknesses, they will keep on being exploited by the enemy. I dont blame the enemy for doing what they are doing. They are just being good enemies and exploiting the situation to their benefit. I blame us for creating the conditions that facilitated the enemies in the exploitation.