عمران خان نےکہہ دیاہےکہ میں کرسی چھوڑدوں گا مگرشہباز شریف کو نہیں چھوڑوں گا

[Tit4Tat]

If you are hell-bent upon looking for reasons to criticize, you will find plenty. More joy to you.
Assalam-u-alaikum.

Lol, it all started when you used the word ‘Justice’
Hope you know now that there isn’t any
Handsomeness can’t get guy justice
Personality cult worship can’t get get you justice
I just hope PTI youths understand this and demand from their leader to fulfils manifesto

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

Lol, it all started when you used the word ‘Justice’
Hope you know now that there isn’t any
Handsomeness can’t get guy justice
Personality cult worship can’t get get you justice
I just hope PTI youths understand this and demand from their leader to fulfils manifesto

Nay , they would kiss his butts more even if their parents get upset .

 

[stargazer]

Lol, it all started when you used the word ‘Justice’
Hope you know now that there isn’t any
Handsomeness can’t get guy justice
Personality cult worship can’t get get you justice
I just hope PTI youths understand this and demand from their leader to fulfils manifesto

It all started because people became greedy, lost their way and lost faith in anything good, and if they see anything good they only have the capacity to complain, cry, and be like crabs in a bucket., spreading their rubbish burdens to others to pull them down to their own level instead of raising their own.
I think you are not any smarter than your ridiculous comments then please do not put yourself any trouble and save me time too.
If you have no hope for justice then you should be at peace and not arguing here.
I smell a rat Tit4Tat!

 

[Tit4Tat]

It all started because people became greedy, lost their way and lost faith in anything good, and if they see anything good they only have the capacity to complain, cry, and be like crabs in a bucket., spreading their rubbish burdens to others to pull them down to their own level instead of raising their own.
I think you are not any smarter than your ridiculous comments then please do not put yourself any trouble and save me time too.
If you have no hope for justice then you should be at peace and not arguing here.
I smell a rat Tit4Tat!

Dude you said justice and I asked did that include sahiwal too?? Now you are not making any sense,

 

[Hussain1967]

What difference does it make if I don't condemn the NS or PMLN at this time ? Did you not find enough people condemning them for whatever reasons ? My stance is equally condemning those who still take the ladder provided by the Boots to come in to power . I am still against those who allowed Boots to interfere in civilian Jurisdictions and created enough space for Boots to manage the civilian affairs .

I strongly believe that Establishment is the main cause of most of our problems whether it stems from supporting corrupt politicians , forcefully managing the civilian affairs and stubbornly resisting the financial auditing of their budget and poking nose in to foreign policy which is entirely civilian jurisdiction . They have enough financial resources to spend money internally to buy the Judges, force them to provide them the decisions they want and they have enough gun power to threaten , abduct and kidnap people who oppose them openly .

I would have more faith on this so called accountability process, had I not seen the manipulation and biased stand of our judiciary, Nab and other institutions who merged together on one point agenda against one family and one politician. I have no faith whatsoever with this tarnish process of accountability which runs mock of our intelligence and which is stage to malign the opposition leaders and save those who take refugee in joining the Governemnt which was formed to support stooge like IK .

I was once a staunch supporter of IK and kept the same views about his financial integrity as you do, till I saw the Niazi offshore company and the shamble of the court drama to absolve him of any crimes regarding his finance and his money laundering . The process of accountability fell short when it comes to probe his funnelling of money using a friend to finance his house in Bali Gala and yet , no one known much about the whole sordid deal how his money got transferred from his former wife through his friend ...

I also witnessed our jokers court and its proceeding in which he was declared Sadiq and Ameen and the court rushed to quash his case against his illegible activities regarding his affair in the past.

I would have not supported NS , had the proceeding of the court would have been transparent , fair and equal footing . He was definitely made a victim of his resistance against Boots and their encroachment on civilian affairs and supremacy. NS is not a saint , neither IK is an angel. Both have their own shortfalls. But I can see how IK is taking his personal vengeance against NS and using every dirty trick in the book to not only malign him but also using his puppet force on SM to disgrace his daughter and his decease wife.
When politicians start to slid the mud at each other, the establishment love to fuel the fire and make sure that fire continue to burn for their vested interests . IK doesn't know that what goes around comes around . It is just a matter of time when things start to catch up. This is the sad reality of Pakistani politics.

I will reply to only your first sentence. For the rest my response is the same which I wrote previously.
Your Question: What will difference will it make if I don’t condemn Nawaz at this point?

My answer: Principles never become outdated. You don’t follow a principle at certain times because it gives you or someone else. Your condemnation of Nawaz for his heinous crimes, even at this time, will prove you a just person who is not blind in personal vendetta. BTW, I have yet to see your post on this forum where you will condemn Nawaz by name. You didn’t answer my question of Shehbaz ( with the patronage) meeting with Kiyani for one dozen times. Neither did you comment on PMLN voting for Bajwa’s extension just few months ago.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

I will reply to only your first sentence. For the rest my response is the same which I wrote previously.
Your Question: What will difference will it make if I don’t condemn Nawaz at this point?

My answer: Principles never become outdated. You don’t follow a principle at certain times because it gives you or someone else. Your condemnation of Nawaz for his heinous crimes, even at this time, will prove you a just person who is not blind in personal vendetta. BTW, I have yet to see your post on this forum where you will condemn Nawaz by name. You didn’t answer my question of Shehbaz ( with the patronage) meeting with Kiyani for one dozen times. Neither did you comment on PMLN voting for Bajwa’s extension just few months ago.

This is an absurd question . When I say I don't trust this Judiciary which is being manipulated to deliver the decisions, then I certainly don't trust their decision since they have zero credibility. I have written that in order to be fair and just , you need to look at the justice system and ensure that it has not compromised one way or other. I am not going to condemn him on the basis of the decisions I do not trust . I am also not going to condemn him just to prove myself a juts person . Had you produce a fair, transparent and unbiased courts and Judiciary in Pakistan which is not run by the string holders, I would condemn him on his conviction on the crimes he committed if proven .

 

[Hussain1967]

This is an absurd question . When I say I don't trust this Judiciary which is being manipulated to deliver the decisions, then I certainly don't trust their decision since they have zero credibility. I have written that in order to be fair and just , you need to look at the justice system and ensure that it has not compromised one way or other. I am not going to condemn him on the basis of the decisions I do not trust . I am also not going to condemn him just to prove myself a juts person . Had you produce a fair, transparent and unbiased courts and Judiciary in Pakistan which is not run by the string holders, I would condemn him on his conviction on the crimes he committed if proven .

Do you need any judicial verdict against him to convince yourself what he did, in collusion with establishment, from 1981 to 1999?

Do you need any judicial verdict to convince yourself for one-dozen meetings of Shehbaz ( at the behest of Nawaz) with General Kiyani?

Do you need a judicial commission to convince yourself how Nawaz , with the help of the then establishment, stole 1990 elections from Benazir, and stopped her in 1988 from getting 2/3rd majority?

Nawaz was praising Zia ul Haq in 1994 when he had presumably turned against establishment in 1993. Should I send you the YouTube link of his speech of 1994 in front of Farooq Laghari’s home along with Ejaz ul Haq. This ‘lun anti-establishment guy’ was again colluding with establishment in overthrowing Benazir’s government in 1996.

Finally, have you seen Nawaz’s statements in Parliament, Address-to-Nation, in Supreme Court and Trial Court? Have you seen the statements of his children in that case? Certainly, Establishment was running after him in 2016 but Nawaz has to blame himself for that. He had skeletons in his cupboard which establishment knew and they used it against him.

Have you seen Nawaz’s assets in 1981 and then in 1999?

Conclusion: Nawaz has never been anti-establishment. He only pretends it when it suits him. If his support of Bajwa few months ago can’t convince you, then nothing can.

From now onwards, I will consider you a diehard supporter of PMLN. Congratulations to you. Salam.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

Do you need any judicial verdict against him to convince yourself what he did, in collusion with establishment, from 1981 to 1999?

Do you need any judicial verdict to convince yourself for one-dozen meetings of Shehbaz ( at the behest of Nawaz) with General Kiyani?

Do you need a judicial commission to convince yourself how Nawaz , with the help of the then establishment, stole 1990 elections from Benazir, and stopped her in 1988 from getting 2/3rd majority?

Nawaz was praising Zia ul Haq in 1994 when he had presumably turned against establishment in 1993. Should I send you the YouTube link of his speech of 1994 in front of Farooq Laghari’s home along with Ejaz ul Haq. This ‘lun anti-establishment guy’ was again colluding with establishment in overthrowing Benazir’s government in 1996.

Finally, have you seen Nawaz’s statements in Parliament, Address-to-Nation, in Supreme Court and Trial Court? Have you seen the statements of his children in that case? Certainly, Establishment was running after him in 2016 but Nawaz has to blame himself for that. He had skeletons in his cupboard which establishment knew and they used it against him.

Have you seen Nawaz’s assets in 1981 and then in 1999?

Conclusion: Nawaz has never been anti-establishment. He only pretends it when it suits him. If his support of Bajwa few months ago can’t convince you, then nothing can.

From now onwards, I will consider you a diehard supporter of PMLN. Congratulations to you. Salam.

Thats fine . Once I was also in primary class, Jinnah was also in congress and Bhutto was also the foreign minister of Ayub. But that does not mean that their alliance will always be with them . Obviously I am being a democratic person , I feel really terrible about those politicians who have been ca hooting around with GHQ. However, considering how deep rooted these army generals mafia has its hold on power , it is no joke to stand against them and counted for. Had Benazir Bhutto not break the deal with Musharraf, the democracy would never had any hope while Musharraf was ruling the country uninterpreted. NS was definitely removed from power because of his stand against the army policies. It was well documents in so called Dawn leak scandal. What he said at that time , was proven right 3 years later.

 

[Hussain1967]

Thats fine . Once I was also in primary class, Jinnah was also in congress and Bhutto was also the foreign minister of Ayub. But that does not mean that their alliance will always be with them . Obviously I am being a democratic person , I feel really terrible about those politicians who have been ca hooting around with GHQ. However, considering how deep rooted these army generals mafia has its hold on power , it is no joke to stand against them and counted for. Had Benazir Bhutto didn't break the deal with Musharraf, the democracy would never had any hope while Musharraf was ruling the country uninterpreted. NS was definitely removed from power because of his stand against the army policies. It was well documents in so called Dawn leak scandal. What he said at that time , was proven right 3 years later.

How many times Jinnah sb went into and out of Congress? How many times Bhutto was with the establishment ? In fact, you are committing a sin by comparing Nawaz with Jinnah and Bhutto.

Finally, how many times Benazir signed deals with establishment? While, in case of Nawaz, I gave you numerous examples. Latest was that of last year when his party could have stopped Bajwa from getting illegal extension of another three years. After a long time, Army had come under severe pressure. At least , his party could have documented its protest by voting against that law in both NA and Senate. Regarding him being financially honest, I gave you example in my previous post. You don’t need a judicial verdict against him to believe that he made parkland apartments during 1990s through corrupt practices. Just see the statements of his children in 1998, in 2011, and then in 2016. Then compare them with Nawaz’s own statements in Parliament, address to the nation, in SC, and in trial court.

So, in how many attempts Nawaz will pass his ‘primary exam‘ ? That’s a question for you to ponder. Do let me know when Nawaz goes to ‘Middle School’.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

How many times Jinnah sb went into and out of Congress? How many times Bhutto was with the establishment ? In fact, you are committing a sin by comparing Nawaz with Jinnah and Bhutto.

Finally, how many times Benazir signed deals with establishment? While, in case of Nawaz, I gave you numerous examples. Latest was that of last year when his party could have stopped Bajwa from getting illegal extension of another three years. After a long time, Army had come under severe pressure. At least , his party could have documented its protest by voting against that law in both NA and Senate. Regarding him being financially honest, I gave you example in my previous post. You don’t need a judicial verdict against him to believe that he made parkland apartments during 1990s through corrupt practices. Just see the statements of his children in 1998, in 2011, and then in 2016. Then compare them with Nawaz’s own statements in Parliament, address to the nation, in SC, and in trial court.

So, in how many attempts Nawaz will pass his ‘primary exam‘ ? That’s a question for you to ponder. Do let me know when Nawaz goes to ‘Middle School’.

This is the first time NS stood against Army and it will be his last time . Just look around and tell me who else is standing against the establishment right now ? I can't guarantee anyone future and what that person may or may not do in the future. I know that right now, there is not a single entity in Pakistani Politics which is fighting for the civilian supremacy . I hope and pray that someone with balls bigger than a football comes along and kick these generals back into their shell. But till that time, there is no one else is standing which could be counted for. There has to be someone within our lines , someone with hope and trust . The present lot is hopeless , dead meat carpets.

 

[Hussain1967]

Thats fine . Once I was also in primary class, Jinnah was also in congress and Bhutto was also the foreign minister of Ayub. But that does not mean that their alliance will always be with them . Obviously I am being a democratic person , I feel really terrible about those politicians who have been ca hooting around with GHQ. However, considering how deep rooted these army generals mafia has its hold on power , it is no joke to stand against them and counted for. Had Benazir Bhutto not break the deal with Musharraf, the democracy would never had any hope while Musharraf was ruling the country uninterpreted. NS was definitely removed from power because of his stand against the army policies. It was well documents in so called Dawn leak scandal. What he said at that time , was proven right 3 years later.

I know the full history of Pakistani politics and governments. I can tell you everything with timeline. Now read below and then find verify them from Newspapers and Internet.

April 1993-August 1993: Nawaz stood against Army
till the time Benazir formed government

July 1999- October 2012: Nawaz was against Army till the time Imran rose on political horizon and Nawaz felt threatened in Punjab.

April 2014 to October 2019: Nawaz was again against Army till the time he had to flee out of jail and country.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

I know the full history of Pakistani politics and governments. I can tell you everything with timeline. Now read below and then find verify them from Newspapers and Internet.

April 1993-August 1993: Nawaz stood against Army
till the time Benazir formed government

July 1999- October 2012: Nawaz was against Army till the time Imran rose on political horizon and Nawaz felt threatened in Punjab.

April 2014 to October 2019: Nawaz was again against Army till the time he had to flee out of jail and country.

Lol , from April 1993 to August 1993 .. He was against the army ? Any of his statement denouncing the army's rule in Politics ?
July 1999 he was the PM of Pakistan . Any statement attributed to him against army ? He didn't like the Mushrraf's secret plan of incursion in Kargil without confiding him .
He took part in 2013 election . Any of his statements which was against the Army at that time ?
Before the election of 2008 , he admit his mistakes of seeking army support and allow the army to create space for themselves. He draw a deal with Benazir to strengthen the Constitution to be more democratic and abide by the rules setup not to be used by army against each other.
The Dawn leak was the first sign of his distatefullness aginst the army when he was busy trying to revive the economy and the country was being label as terrorists pardise due to idiotc policies of army intervention in Kashmir and screwing up the Kashmiris chance for indignous freedom movement .

 

[Hussain1967]

Lol , from April 1993 to August 1993 .. He was against the army ? Any of his statement denouncing the army's rule in Politics ?
July 1999 he was the PM of Pakistan . Any statement attributed to him against army ? He didn't like the Mushrraf's secret plan of incursion in Kargil without confiding him .
He took part in 2013 election . Any of his statements which was against the Army at that time ?
Before the election of 2008 , he admit his mistakes of seeking army support and allow the army to create space for themselves. He draw a deal with Benazir to strengthen the Constitution to be more democratic and abide by the rules setup not to be used by army against each other.
The Dawn leak was the first sign of his distatefullness aginst the army when he was busy trying to revive the economy and the country was being label as terrorists pardise due to idiotc policies of army intervention in Kashmir and screwing up the Kashmiris chance for indignous freedom movement .

Lol, In April 1993, he delivered his famous speech to the nation on PTV in which he said that he would never take any dictation, referring to Army’s pressure to force him to resign. Army was with Ghulam Ishaq Khan. He then bid farewell to IJI ( a remanent of establishment) and formed his party, PMLN, which took part in 1993 elections and came second.

His second wave of opposition to establishment came in July 1999 when he knew that Mush kept him in darkness. He wanted to punish Mush in October 1999 for that act of foolishness , which was an act of bravery and the big proof of being anti-establishment. Remember, Zardari didn’t even show intention to punish establishment in 2011 over OBL fiasco. Similarly, in 2009, Nawaz wanted PPP to initiate Article 6 against Mush but Gilani said that it was not doable.

From 2004 to 2007, he gave various interviews ( reference: Sohail Warraich, Rauf Klasra) abroad where he vehemently opposed role of military in politics. From 2008 to 2011, he gave various statements where he said that he wanted to improve relations with India but Army impeded his way. I still remember his famous speech of May 28, 2010. Just watch that historic speech on Youtube.

BTW, what’s your definition of being anti-establishment? LOL...

 

[stargazer]

Dude you said justice and I asked did that include sahiwal too?? Now you are not making any sense,

Exactly what I am trying to say! Do you think justice is selective? for this and that or that? Justice means for all regardless of anything.
The very fact that people say Justice for Saahival too? it means they do not understand what justice means.

 

[Zaidi Qasim]

Lol, In April 1993, he delivered his famous speech to the nation on PTV in which he said that he would never take any dictation, referring to Army’s pressure to force him to resign. Army was with Ghulam Ishaq Khan. He then bid farewell to IJI ( a remanent of establishment) and formed his party, PMLN, which took part in 1993 elections and came second.

His second wave of opposition to establishment came in July 1999 when he knew that Mush kept him in darkness. He wanted to punish Mush in October 1999 for that act of foolishness , which was an act of bravery and the big proof of being anti-establishment. Remember, Zardari didn’t even show intention to punish establishment in 2011 over OBL fiasco. Similarly, in 2009, Nawaz wanted PPP to initiate Article 6 against Mush but Gilani said that it was not doable.

From 2004 to 2007, he gave various interviews ( reference: Sohail Warraich, Rauf Klasra) abroad where he vehemently opposed role of military in politics. From 2008 to 2011, he gave various statements where he said that he wanted to improve relations with India but Army impeded his way. I still remember his famous speech of May 28, 2010. Just watch that historic speech on Youtube.

BTW, what’s your definition of being anti-establishment? LOL...

I have yet to understand what you trying to tell me here. My view is very clear. I do not see anyone in the country ready or even able to stand against the Army generals on the rights in the constitution and civilian fair share in it. I also said that the last elections were Jherlo elections and was bought out by the GHQ and its planners by introducing lotas and making IK their front man in deceptive , joke elections .
NS did what he could , Obviously no one is perfect and no one will be perfect , you can always find shortcomings in everyone , but you fail to tell me who is the civilian leader ready to fight for the constitutional rights of the people ? The present rulers are sitting on the lapses of army generals and have no shame even telling it .

You also pointing out that Establishment has taken over everything in the country . You can't find a third party members from outside of the country to come and fight for the rights of the people . Whatever you have in the country , you would have to use it .. You think Bongi Khan will fight for the democratic rights of the people. Just watch his behaviour on Missing people and what going on in the KPK as far as the Pushton movement is concerned. He is an army lackey who is bending backward to accommodate what is told by the GHQ.