Why Do India and Pakistan So Furiously Rage?

Nepali Pandit

MPA (400+ posts)
To paraphrase a biblical passage, at times why do India and Pakistan so furiously rage? Since the horrific attacks in Mumbai in November, we have seen much. The historical and structural differences between these two countries may also explain it.
In the eyes of history and their ancient gods, India and Pakistan have been together since the beginning. From the earliest civilizations of the Indus Valley over five thousand years ago until independence from Britain in 1947, they were one. India and Pakistan have been separate entities for only one percent of this recorded history. So why can they not exist in tranquility? As one of my Indian friends has observed, "The Pakistanis speak my language, have my skin color, eat my food and listen to my music. The place looks pretty good to me."
Throughout history, Hindus have been ruled by Muslims, an occupying presence. After the death of the Prophet, the Arabs became well established in Sindh by the early 8th century. Resplendent to some and barbarian to others, the Turkic Mahmud of Ghazni looted north India and ruled from his capital in Ghazni about the year 1000. There followed over eight hundred years of Muslim authority over much of India: Turks, Afghans, and the Mughals made their mark. During this Muslim rule, the Mongol Tamerlane sacked Delhi, like the Persians centuries later. A Muslim aristocracy was imposed upon its subjects, mostly Hindus. Not until Bahadur Shah Zafar was ousted by the British in 1857 did the remnants of Mughal rule officially end.
The memories of civil war and the trauma of partition lingered for decades. But the generation most affected is now passing -- the next ones are more interested in commercial success than in enmity toward Pakistan.
Today the Hindus of India generally accept the contributions of an Islamic past, with pride in the monuments and culture that Muslims brought and left. In the mainstream, the 150 million Muslims of secular India subordinate their faith to their identity as Indians. This is not exactly the case in Pakistan, which became known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in 1956, in spite of the secular vision of its founder, the anglicized Mohammad Ali Jinnah, who received a law education at the Inns of Court in London.
Besides history, a second factor is the disputed territory of Kashmir, which is of little economic value to either Pakistan or India. By a quirk of history, a Hindu maharaja in a Muslim land opted to join India at the time of partition, asking the federal government for help in repelling Pashtun invaders. Kashmir evokes memories and is emotionally bonded to both countries. Like other hill stations, the aristocracy spent time there to avoid the heat of the Indo-Gangetic plain. Kashmir is an enchanted land of abandoned forts, dark forests, glaciers, and cold lakes, and the Urdu poets there longed for a romantic love beyond reach.
India and Pakistan went to war twice over Kashmir in 1947 and 1965, and there were high altitude hostilities in the Kargil region in 1999, when India charged that insurgents were sponsored by the Pakistan government. The strategic value of Kashmir is also derived from its rugged mountainous border with China.
A third factor is the structural difference between the two. Both countries have traditions of royalty and aristocracy, but India has become a broad-based society, with many thousands of families and domestic and foreign investors controlling the economy. Meritocracy is on the rise, and some privilege and government control have been eliminated, with people more empowered. While the transparency of governance is a major issue in the public and private sectors, this need is nevertheless well recognized as a step toward full economic transformation.
The Indian independence movement was broad based in the society, and the creation of Pakistan was more of a vision of the Muslim establishment. Further, Jawaharlal Nehru and later his daughter, Indira Gandhi were able to end the privileges of the Maharajas and establish some land reform, while in Pakistan wealth remains relatively concentrated.
Pakistan is controlled by comparatively few families in collaboration with an equally elitist army, all seeking to maintain status. Many Pakistanis believe the ruling classes have let down the country, pursuing selfish ends with little appreciation for the society and the vast cleavage between haves and have-nots. To maintain privilege and to feed the apparatus that is the Pakistan army, the elites have vilified India, which as neither pure villain nor innocent bystander, is believed to be asserting itself in Afghanistan and able to effect agitation in the Pakistani province of Baluchistan. Even with a vibrant press, Pakistan is still a land of shadows, and reform of governance does not rank high on the national agenda.
It is sometimes said that in India, everything is but it isn't: generalizations or ideas that look true can be found to be false -- and the paradox prevails. There are historical and structural differences between India and Pakistan to be sure, but my friend, who was referring to much of the north, is also right.
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/23/why-do-india-and-pakistan-so-f
 

gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
hello professor pandit,

Thanks for the wonderful thesis. When I opened this forum so early in the morning, 6:25, I was hoping to see some comments about a political situation in Pak, but you have severly disappointed me. Thanks for posting this boring analysis.

Also, try to write something using your heart and mind like most of us, that will carry full conviction and less boring...... good day
 

Pakistani Lion

MPA (400+ posts)
Dear Nepali, your choosing of such a patronising article is a testament to how Indians view Pakistan. Once you start to reconcile to the fact that Pakistan is now a seperate and independent nation with very proud people who love their country and will do anything for it and start to treat us as equals then we will be more than willing to change our attitudes as well. Not very long ago a certain someone left this forum extremely emotionally and received a lot of messages from Pakistanis to change their mind and come back and according to their own admission it made them 'cry' - that's what Pakistan is all about not what its portrayed to be in articles which you've just posted which nit-picks issues, where it fails to even mention what the modern day Indian Muslim even thinks, not to mention the demolition of their mosques and genocide of not only Muslims but other minorities including fellow Hindus who are of the lower caste. In the words of Jaswant Singh 'you only have to look into the eyes of Indian Muslims today to find out why Pakistan was created'. You also need to keep in mind that Pakistan was also partitioned in early 70's as well but we have not attacked Bangladesh and recognise it as a Independent and Sovereign state and do not continue to malign it like Indians do to Pakistan.
 

Star Gazer

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Foremost Pakistan has no rage. What do you call people fighting for their just rights? Do you call that rage.It has been more than 60 years and who keeps harping the tune"we were one before partition,oh we were one,we speak the same language,we have the same skin color etc." showing a lack of accepting the reality and a desire to live in the past.Not Pakistanis. We have moved on and indians need todo the same,move on.We respect and accept india as a seperate entity,but we like to be cautious in view of all the aggression directed towards us sometimes open and sometimes shrouded behind words and gestures of friendship only to be wronged at the time of our neighbors choosing.
Quaid-Azam was not of a secular mind as is generally the propoganda.please read his speeches before you take any other persons word on that and reduce the value of your own.
Indira Gandhi openly claimed to have helped in dividing Pakistan in 1971 and you want to know why we are hurting,why don't you first oplogise for the wrong you committed where you had no business?
Why a plebiscite was promised to the Kashmiri people in1948 and to date india is withholding the right by force,if this is the value of the indian promise then why should we trust you any more.
What you have stated about Pakistan is from crap journalism written for the approval of a mind set,not the truth. We have done much better considering that all assets that the British said would be divided according to a share plan between india and Pakistan was never given to us by india,to state one fact Pakaistan should have recieved more than 1 billion rupees at the time of partition but india thought well why not keep it and devour it.!
 

IndiaGuy

Senator (1k+ posts)
Pandit,
Please don't very complicated articles. Most Pakistani on these forum won't digest it.
 

Star Gazer

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
IndiaGuy said:
Pandit,
Please don't very complicated articles. Most Pakistani on these forum won't digest it.
your answer is short and simple. If I can qoute from what your friend contra uses as his/her slogan
"For every complicated question there is a simple answer, and that is usually not correct"
 

furry87

Senator (1k+ posts)
IndiaGuy said:
Pandit,
Please don't very complicated articles. Most Pakistani on these forum won't digest it.


indian guy ,my friend ...the thing is we being pakis know why we have "rage" for india we do not need a patronizing article by some horse shit journalist to tell us why...and for you to suggest we cannot disgest ur assumptions or logic is incredibly anoying..so let me tell you why we have so much rage for you in a single word "Kashmir"...theres no other reason let me assure u , we have forgot bangladesh , we have forgotten kargil , we have forgotten 65, we have forgotten 48, we have forgotten about the partition, we dont care what religion you are, we dont care what colour you are, we dont care what ealier muslims did to india, we dont care what creed of cast you are or we are...its just about kashmir, if india today says pakistan can have kashmir back or just the muslims of kashmir ...then pakistan will bend over backwards and kiss indias hands ...we do not hate the people of india or hindus ,it is just a build of the kashmir issue for the past 60 years ...i did not mind reading the article at all , it was actually a good read but ur comment is highly anoying ...i think we deserve a bit more credit than that
 

digitalzygot

Senator (1k+ posts)
Youtube and ZEE bad information source LOL "The Pakistanis speak my language, have my skin color, eat my food and listen to my music. The place looks pretty good to me.". WE DON'T SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE, WE SPEAK URDU NOT HINDI THOUGH THEY RESEMBLE AND WE CAN UNDERSTAND EACHOTHER TO AN EXTENT. SKIN COLOUR *SIGH* WE DO NOT LOOK FEEBLE, BLACK AND STARVED. EAT YOUR FOOD??? WHAT :d oh GOD
 

Nepali Pandit

MPA (400+ posts)
digitalzygot said:
Youtube and ZEE bad information source LOL "The Pakistanis speak my language, have my skin color, eat my food and listen to my music. The place looks pretty good to me.". WE DON'T SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE, WE SPEAK URDU NOT HINDI THOUGH THEY RESEMBLE AND WE CAN UNDERSTAND EACHOTHER TO AN EXTENT. SKIN COLOUR *SIGH* WE DO NOT LOOK FEEBLE, BLACK AND STARVED. EAT YOUR FOOD??? WHAT :d oh GOD

may be my source of informations aren't verY reliable but I am learning everyday. My knowledge of history, islam and Pakistan is expanding . Unlike you I regularly visit place called library. I knew you were ignorant but I didn't know you were ignorant to this scale to cosider white people to be more superior or better than black. Must likely I am more white than you so from now onwards I won't debate with you as you are are inferior to me (your theory) . Since when you guys got exclusive right on Urdu, what about large numbers of Hindus and muslims of india who speak that language. What a loser, you are not worth my reply.
 

gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
Nepali Pandit said:
digitalzygot said:
Youtube and ZEE bad information source LOL "The Pakistanis speak my language, have my skin color, eat my food and listen to my music. The place looks pretty good to me.". WE DON'T SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE, WE SPEAK URDU NOT HINDI THOUGH THEY RESEMBLE AND WE CAN UNDERSTAND EACHOTHER TO AN EXTENT. SKIN COLOUR *SIGH* WE DO NOT LOOK FEEBLE, BLACK AND STARVED. EAT YOUR FOOD??? WHAT :d oh GOD

may be my source of informations aren't verY reliable but I am learning everyday. My knowledge of history, islam and Pakistan is expanding . Unlike you I regularly visit place called library. I knew you were ignorant but I didn't know you were ignorant to this scale to cosider white people to be more superior or better than black. Must likely I am more white than you so from now onwards I won't debate with you as you are are inferior to me (your theory) . Since when you guys got exclusive right on Urdu, what about large numbers of Hindus and muslims of india who speak that language. What a loser, you are not worth my reply.

Youare soooooooooo stupid, you did reply. [hilar]

Its good to know that fianally a Pakistani member pissed you off [funnny]

White men are NOT superior to brown men. But white women are better heheheheheh
 

digitalzygot

Senator (1k+ posts)
hahahah LOL LOL [hilar] [hilar] [hilar] but But But You said yourself you rely on youtube and different channels for information about pakistan and Islam, don't blame me these aren't my words [hilar] [hilar] .

Awww my remarks were taken in a wrong way. I am not racist technically I was just pointing out the differences, if you feel that way than too bad it's YOUR fault and sick thinking LOL.
 

digitalzygot

Senator (1k+ posts)
NOW this is a racist statement "Must likely I am more white than you so from now onwards I won't debate with you as you are are inferior to me". YEWWWWWWW [hilar] [hilar] [hilar]
 

gazoomartian

Prime Minister (20k+ posts)
digitalzygot said:
NOW this is a racist statement "Must likely I am more white than you so from now onwards I won't debate with you as you are are inferior to me". YEWWWWWWW [hilar] [hilar] [hilar]

didnt he/she mean 'MOST LIKELY' instead??
 
G

Guest

Guest
digitalzygot said:
Youtube and ZEE bad information source LOL "The Pakistanis speak my language, have my skin color, eat my food and listen to my music. The place looks pretty good to me.". WE DON'T SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE, WE SPEAK URDU NOT HINDI THOUGH THEY RESEMBLE AND WE CAN UNDERSTAND EACHOTHER TO AN EXTENT. SKIN COLOUR *SIGH* WE DO NOT LOOK FEEBLE, BLACK AND STARVED. EAT YOUR FOOD??? WHAT :d oh GOD

kaalay hain to kya hua dil wale hain. :D