'Omar's Law is UNKNOWN in Sweden': Swedish historian to Imran Khan

[Vitamin_C]

Sure it has taken inspiration from various sources and all, but it was not entirely 'foreign' concept for them. The swedish historian has categorically explained that much of it was indigenously inspired and brought about.

But like I said, broad generalisations and claims is something politicians are good at. It may sound something true, but generalisations are easy to do and ignores the complex matters which most of our simple masses do not even know of.

Developed Nations are proud of what they are, and people in countries such as ours have inferiority complex, they think its not possible to equal them. But we forget what the Nordics used to be, they were basically barbarians. No one wanted to go there and invade simply because there was nothing there.
I know its not true that the Swedes invented this, their politicians most probably copied it from the Germans. They feel it is an insult to admit their success is not entirely based on indigenous invention. Which is why you can never expect them to admit it. If you ask them if their System is copied from Germany they will be like Germany? what is Germany? We have never head of that country before.. :lol:
I do not know whether they copied the whole system from our Caliphs, but it is generally accepted that they do take ideas from those systems if not the whole thing. The point is, its something that we should try to do as well. Every successful nation looks for ideas outside it. When a country focuses all its attention inwards it is doomed. This is how the Kanxi empire of China and the Ottoman empire went into decline. The way to the future is to learn from others and to refine on it. Remember its not called copying if you refine on it, I think this is what the Swedes have done. Japans technology was copied from the West but we still admire it because they not only copied but they greatly improved upon it, this is why Japanese technology is more appreciated over Chinese.

 

[mrk123]

jab khulley aam BONGIYAN mar kar apney aap ko "LEADER" samjho gey, tau phir doosroun ka JAWAB bhi sunn liya karo.

Whats a little exaggeration between friends? ;-) Who knew that Mr. Sulheria is in Sweden and this claim would prick his intellectual curiosity to investigate the claim. As people we are given to getting a little carried away and in excitement we manufacture facts too or sometime merely quote manufactured facts and since some of these facts appear on the internet then they must be true and there is no need to verify their authencity.

Anyway, joking aside - I do have an issue with how the Swedish academic is tying the concept of welfare state with the rights and freedoms. I am going to commit heresy or blasphemy by quoting wikipedia here (just shoot me ;-)):

A welfare state is a "concept of government in which the state plays a key role in the protection and promotion of the economic and social well-being of its citizens. It is based on the principles of equality of opportunity, equitabledistribution of wealth, and public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. The general term may cover a variety of forms of economic and social organization."[SUP][1][/SUP]

 

[mrk123]

Developed Nations are proud of what they are, and people in countries such as ours have inferiority complex, they think its not possible to equal them. But we forget what the Nordics used to be, they were basically barbarians. No one wanted to go there and invade simply because there was nothing there.
I know its not true that the Swedes invented this, their politicians most probably copied it from the Germans. They feel it is an insult to admit their success is not entirely based on indigenous invention. Which is why you can never expect them to admit it. If you ask them if their System is copied from Germany they will be like Germany? what is Germany? We have never head of that country before.. :lol:
I do not know whether they copied the whole system from our Caliphs, but it is generally accepted that they do take ideas from those systems if not the whole thing. The point is, its something that we should try to do as well. Every successful nation looks for ideas outside it. When a country focuses all its attention inwards it is doomed. This is how the Kanxi empire of China and the Ottoman empire went into decline. The way to the future is to learn from others and to refine on it. Remember its not called copying if you refine on it, I think this is what the Swedes have done. Japans technology was copied from the West but we still admire it because they not only copied but they greatly improved upon it, this is why Japanese technology is more appreciated over Chinese.

I think that you make a very good point. I would like to add couple of things. I completely agree with you that we are afflicted with inferiority complex and we love to live in the past and take pride in the achievements of the bygone eras. The other thing is that two minds working to solve a similar problem may come to think of the same solution - they may have been in completely different environments and times but the fundamental conclusions may have been the same. That doesn't mean that they copied each other. I do agree with you that we have to learn from others, in the past and present, to better ourselves and its a continuous process of evolution and once we stop learning and adopting and start to live in the past then we will languish in this state of despair until we change our attitude.

 

[awan4ever]

Developed Nations are proud of what they are, and people in countries such as ours have inferiority complex, they think its not possible to equal them. But we forget what the Nordics used to be, they were basically barbarians. No one wanted to go there and invade simply because there was nothing there.
I know its not true that the Swedes invented this, their politicians most probably copied it from the Germans. They feel it is an insult to admit their success is not entirely based on indigenous invention. Which is why you can never expect them to admit it. If you ask them if their System is copied from Germany they will be like Germany? what is Germany? We have never head of that country before.. :lol:
I do not know whether they copied the whole system from our Caliphs, but it is generally accepted that they do take ideas from those systems if not the whole thing. The point is, its something that we should try to do as well. Every successful nation looks for ideas outside it. When a country focuses all its attention inwards it is doomed. This is how the Kanxi empire of China and the Ottoman empire went into decline. The way to the future is to learn from others and to refine on it. Remember its not called copying if you refine on it, I think this is what the Swedes have done. Japans technology was copied from the West but we still admire it because they not only copied but they greatly improved upon it, this is why Japanese technology is more appreciated over Chinese.

I dont think the Swedes ever claimed that they 'invented' the concept of a welfare state. What Dr. Blomqvist said was that he has see no proof that their policy makers took any inspiration from Islamic principles.

Now to shut him up, all that is required is a copy of some piece of legislation or some policy makers personal notes or autobiography quote which says that he studied the Islamic system in detail and formulated his policy suggestions on the same.

True that people take inspiration but for us to make a sweeping claim that the Nordics made their system on 'Omarian Law' ( a term which doesnt even show up on google search) is a bit of a stretch.

The point of this whole debate is that we have been fed on lies and make belief stories all olur lives. Maybe it is time to shun that practice and learn to raise some questions every time someone makes tall claims even if it is someone we admire and follow. There is no harm in it.

Nobody is suggesting that people should not vote for IK because he might have made an error my misquoting historical references.

 

[rfarooqi]

So Imran shotfrom the hip. If I were him and this issue needs clarification, I would reword the statement but highlighting the similarities in Islamic welfare concept and Swedish system. Keeping the link suitably ambiguous. End of story. We all make errors like this.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I think that you make a very good point. I would like to add couple of things. I completely agree with you that we are afflicted with inferiority complex and we love to live in the past and take pride in the achievements of the bygone eras. The other thing is that two minds working to solve a similar problem may come to think of the same solution - they may have been in completely different environments and times but the fundamental conclusions may have been the same. That doesn't mean that they copied each other. I do agree with you that we have to learn from others, in the past and present, to better ourselves and its a continuous process of evolution and once we stop learning and adopting and start to live in the past then we will languish in this state of despair until we change our attitude.

In Punjab votes are given on electricity, roads and gutters.
If we had a system in which every graduate was given a 2 week visa to UAE to see how a real country works, Zero load shedding, Real roads, Real System. No one would ever think of voting for NS or PPP. This is how a civilization improves by looking outwards. Our country has had a sad fate, our people are deliberately kept dumb and stupid so they cant even look outside even if they wanted to. There so full in fighting for basic necessities that they do not even know what their rights are. If SS builds a road and a sewerage system the will give their life for him and think of him as God no one dare speak against Hazrat Molana Nawaz Sharif because he built a road. These poor people do not even know that its their right to expect proper infrastructure, better than we have in the most beautiful cities of Pakistan right now, its our right to get education, law and order, justice, welfare, jobs... but did any of our leaders provide us with that? yet every idiot will yell dosri bari phir zardari, Qadam barhai mian nawaz sharif hum aap k saath hain. This is how a civilization falls into declines.

 

[mrk123]

I agree that you grow by looking outwards and not inwards - even though I firmly believe that we need to do some serious introspection but that's completely different topic.

I do agree that there is a lot of education that our folks need but I have a problem with this entitlement where people look for the government to change their fortunes. You can't have shiny roads or glittering buildings or other infrastructure without resources. I don't see where the resources will come from to provide all these facitlities and infrastructure. For that we need to have development and funds - people just can't expect that one day we can have all of that if we just have the will to do it. Its a difficult task - but I do agree that we at least need to have the will to serve the people before anything could happen.

In Punjab votes are given on electricity, roads and gutters.
If we had a system in which every graduate was given a 2 week visa to UAE to see how a real country works, Zero load shedding, Real roads, Real System. No one would ever think of voting for NS or PPP. This is how a civilization improves by looking outwards. Our country has had a sad fate, our people are deliberately kept dumb and stupid so they cant even look outside even if they wanted to. There so full in fighting for basic necessities that they do not even know what their rights are. If SS builds a road and a sewerage system the will give their life for him and think of him as God no one dare speak against Hazrat Molana Nawaz Sharif because he built a road. These poor people do not even know that its their right to expect proper infrastructure, better than we have in the most beautiful cities of Pakistan right now, its our right to get education, law and order, justice, welfare, jobs... but did any of our leaders provide us with that? yet every idiot will yell dosri bari phir zardari, Qadam barhai mian nawaz sharif hum aap k saath hain. This is how a civilization falls into declines.

 

[awan4ever]

I agree that you grow by looking outwards and not inwards - even though I firmly believe that we need to do some serious introspection but that's completely different topic.

I do agree that there is a lot of education that our folks need but I have a problem with this entitlement where people look for the government to change their fortunes. You can't have shiny roads or glittering buildings or other infrastructure without resources. I don't see where the resources will come from to provide all these facitlities and infrastructure. For that we need to have development and funds - people just can't expect that one day we can have all of that if we just have the will to do it. Its a difficult task - but I do agree that we at least need to have the will to serve the people before anything could happen.

Speaking of resources and even though this is off-topic but since Sweden is being mentioned so you might find it interesting and embarassing that:

Sweden with population of approx. 10 million : GDP (2011)= 538 billion USD

Pakistan with population approx. 177 million : GDP (2011)= 210 billion USD


So with 17 times the population we are still unable to generate half the income that Sweden does!:(

(I didnt include Norway because they have oil).

 

[mrk123]

It sure is embarrassing but imagine the scary scenario when our projected population growth will puts us at a whopping 300 million by 2050.
Just thinking about it gives me chills and makes me shiver.

Speaking of resources and even though this is off-topic but since Sweden is being mentioned so you might find it interesting and embarassing that:

Sweden with population of approx. 10 million : GDP (2011)= 538 billion USD

Pakistan with population approx. 177 million : GDP (2011)= 210 billion USD


So with 17 times the population we are still unable to generate half the income that Sweden does!:(

(I didnt include Norway because they have oil).

 

[ATIQ_KHAN]

Weldone PTI guys....u defetead the PMLN guys.

I am just wondering, is PMLN guys worried about Hazrat Omar following or they just dont like to hear it from IK. There may be few Peoples who still knows about Omar Law in Sweden which IK mentioned but it is obvious now no one will accept this that their system is based on Islam.

Be realistic if this Law was so common in Sweden then Islam will be very Popular in whole Western world...but any one of you disagree that most of Islamic Teachings are followed in whole wstern world ? Do they say these are ISlamic Values even all Muslims knows they are ...


Be realistic PMLN guys and be sensible. We are supporting IK because Sharif brotherans were not able to deliever .....we did support them before but now looking for some one new rather trying the old one and end result we like to see Pakistan grow....

We tried them many time.....Punjab is better then other provinces but is Punjab is good enough where we can say Life is better for everyone ? I guess not.

Pray to God

Allah hum sub ku sahee rasta dekha aur sahee faisla kurney kee samajh ata furma...Ameen

 

[biofilm]

Please never comment on any post... I will save some space for better comments. Thanks.

ye jo swedish banda ha...ise history ka kia pata or na hi ye swedon ka koi policy maker ha....jihon na polcies banayee ho gi wo kab k mar khap gaye han....ye to bas pubs ma jane wali makhlooq ha....

 

[M Ali Khan]

Weldone PTI guys....u defetead the PMLN guys.

I am just wondering, is PMLN guys worried about Hazrat Omar following or they just dont like to hear it from IK. There may be few Peoples who still knows about Omar Law in Sweden which IK mentioned but it is obvious now no one will accept this that their system is based on Islam.

Be realistic if this Law was so common in Sweden then Islam will be very Popular in whole Western world...but any one of you disagree that most of Islamic Teachings are followed in whole wstern world ? Do they say these are ISlamic Values even all Muslims knows they are ...


Be realistic PMLN guys and be sensible. We are supporting IK because Sharif brotherans were not able to deliever .....we did support them before but now looking for some one new rather trying the old one and end result we like to see Pakistan grow....

We tried them many time.....Punjab is better then other provinces but is Punjab is good enough where we can say Life is better for everyone ? I guess not.

Pray to God

Allah hum sub ku sahee rasta dekha aur sahee faisla kurney kee samajh ata furma...Ameen

You clearly did NOT read the whole thread, never mind me saying that I am NOT a Noon Leaguer or PPP or MQM wala, did you?!

 

[Vitamin_C]

I agree that you grow by looking outwards and not inwards - even though I firmly believe that we need to do some serious introspection but that's completely different topic.

I do agree that there is a lot of education that our folks need but I have a problem with this entitlement where people look for the government to change their fortunes. You can't have shiny roads or glittering buildings or other infrastructure without resources. I don't see where the resources will come from to provide all these facitlities and infrastructure. For that we need to have development and funds - people just can't expect that one day we can have all of that if we just have the will to do it. Its a difficult task - but I do agree that we at least need to have the will to serve the people before anything could happen.

Depends on what type of resources you are talking about, If your talking about natural resources there is no shortage here we have oil, coal, gas, limestone, agriculture it goes on. But if your talking about human resource we are seriously lacking. I believe that human resource is most important, countries like Singapore who do not even have water are one of the most prosperous place in SE Asia.

 

[mrk123]

I am talking about all kinds of resources. I think its a false perception that we have lot of natural resources. Not sure why we can't tap these resources even after 65 years. I think its a false perception similar to the one that Shah Iran gave us some change to keep us from drilling for Oil in Baluchistan ;-) As for human capital we do have the numbers - that is we have the quantity but not the quality.

I think that its a fallacy that we can become a developed nation if we are led by good people. Its not that easy - this is one of the issues I have with IK over selling the idea of change. We are down in the dumps somewhere and I know that any improvements will be a great achievement over the present scenario but saying that we can transform ourselves in a short period of time because we have a little oil and gas is basically doing a disservice. We can only improve if we do a lot of ground work starting from but not limited to education reforms, population control, judicial and administrative reforms etc.

Depends on what type of resources you are talking about, If your talking about natural resources there is no shortage here we have oil, coal, gas, limestone, agriculture it goes on. But if your talking about human resource we are seriously lacking. I believe that human resource is most important, countries like Singapore who do not even have water are one of the most prosperous place in SE Asia.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I am talking about all kinds of resources. I think its a false perception that we have lot of natural resources. Not sure why we can't tap these resources even after 65 years. I think its a false perception similar to the one that Shah Iran gave us some change to keep us from drilling for Oil in Baluchistan ;-) As for human capital we do have the numbers - that is we have the quantity but not the quality.

I think that its a fallacy that we can become a developed nation if we are led by good people. Its not that easy - this is one of the issues I have with IK over selling the idea of change. We are down in the dumps somewhere and I know that any improvements will be a great achievement over the present scenario but saying that we can transform ourselves in a short period of time because we have a little oil and gas is basically doing a disservice. We can only improve if we do a lot of ground work starting from but not limited to education reforms, population control, judicial and administrative reforms etc.

It doesnt matter how much resources you have if you do not know how to use it. Even Nigeria has alot of Oil but because of corruption the people dont benefit. We are sitting on large oil gas and Coal reserves, I have heard rumors that there is some treaty preventing us to tap into oil reserves, maybe its on turn by turn basis after Saudis finish their oil it will be our turn.
You can also import resources like many developed countries are doing.
Numbers aren't going to do the trick, you need Human development, we need to spend on our people. On education, healthcare, empowerment of women. In our country people have no value there treated like dogs. Compare HDI of Pakistan with that of developed countries.
All the reforms you talked about are long term-(if our government has the will) so the problem comes down to corruption. We can set things right and maybe in 20-30 years we will fully develop, but that is- If the govt has the will to do it. Govt problem can be solved in the short term if you elect a govt that is sincere and proactive rather than reactive.

 

[Sikander Ali]

All you morons, Imran nay kon say history college me admission lena ha jo you are bickering over this issue like it's a matter of life and death. The simple matter is his notion of a perfect well fare state derives form Hazrat Umer and the Scandinavian countries. What a load of Moron you all.

 

[Abdullah Choudhery]

read this http://varldsinbordeskriget.wordpre...714-–-the-realpolitik-of-a-christian-kingdom/

 

[Abdullah Choudhery]

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198701/the.swedish.connection.htm here link. read it.

 

[khanstudent]

jab khulley aam BONGIYAN mar kar apney aap ko "LEADER" samjho gey, tau phir doosroun ka JAWAB bhi sunn liya karo.

@Mamo A Khan; tum jo b kaho per this time vote to IK and PTI ka hay .....haha

Imran Khan Zinda Baad

 

[mrk123]

It doesnt matter how much resources you have if you do not know how to use it. Even Nigeria has alot of Oil but because of corruption the people dont benefit. We are sitting on large oil gas and Coal reserves, I have heard rumors that there is some treaty preventing us to tap into oil reserves, maybe its on turn by turn basis after Saudis finish their oil it will be our turn.

This is exactly what I was talking about - this fallacy that 'we are sitting on a lot of oil and gas reserves'. There is no treaty like the one you mentioned. Don't you think that if we had oil Chinese will be all over us to tap that oil for their consumption? Its just some theory thats sold to us based on pure baloney.

You can also import resources like many developed countries are doing.
Numbers aren't going to do the trick, you need Human development, we need to spend on our people. On education, healthcare, empowerment of women. In our country people have no value there treated like dogs. Compare HDI of Pakistan with that of developed countries.

I completely agree with you and made this same argument in different threads. We can't just go to bed one day and think that when we wake up we will be just like Dubai or Istanbul or Kuala Lumpur. Importing resources will come later once we develop ourselves and there would be a demand and funds to pay for these resources.

All the reforms you talked about are long term-(if our government has the will) so the problem comes down to corruption. We can set things right and maybe in 20-30 years we will fully develop, but that is- If the govt has the will to do it. Govt problem can be solved in the short term if you elect a govt that is sincere and proactive rather than reactive.

You can't really elect sincere leaders if people in general don't know what sincerity is and when corruption has seeped into every aspect of our lives at every level. I think we have to take a collective decision that enough is enough. We need to understand and admit that there is something very wrong with us. We need to sit down what are the factors that are causing us to descend into the abyss or as some would argue have already anchored us deep into the abyss. Once we realize and make a conscious collective decision that things need to improve then we can set the priorities and work on finding ways to improve in the short and long term. Unless this realization is there nothing will happen.