such bolo
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
اولی الامر سے مراد حاکم وقت ہے
انکی اطاعت تیسرے درجہ میں آتی ہے
اور وہ بهی اللہ اور اسکے رسول ﷺ کی اطاعت کے تابع ہے
معاملہ بهت واضح ہے کوئی ابہام نہیں
Namaz ke tareeqay per itna ikhtalaf - The real tragedy of Muslim Ummah - A solution
- Thread starter Adeelsaleem
- Start date
اولی الامر سے مراد حاکم وقت ہے
انکی اطاعت تیسرے درجہ میں آتی ہے
اور وہ بهی اللہ اور اسکے رسول ﷺ کی اطاعت کے تابع ہے
معاملہ بهت واضح ہے کوئی ابہام نہیں
Pakistani1947
Minister (2k+ posts)
Brother such bolo, there is no point debating with Shias like "khan_sultan" and "There is only 1" as they do not believe in Main stream Muslim's books of Hadeeths like Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.
Brother, the right and logical way of debating with shia is explained by an ex-Shia in my older post : LINK
When you want to help a Shia to realize how deviated he/she is from Islam or to help a fellow Muslim from the mainstream not to be deceived by Shia, there are TWO QUESTIONS that completely do the job for you:
Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?
I tried asking above question many times on this forum; either they do not have any answer to above questions or in some cases moderator Faiza (Probably she is Shia) would delete my post!
To avoid ruining a sensible debate due to abusive and vulgar posts by Shia members it is always better to stay calm and place above two questions to them.
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There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
اچھا لطیفہ ہے کہ کوئی اختلاف نہیں ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ قیاس بہت مضحکہ ہیز ہے کہ اس سے مراد حاکم وقت ہے
There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
فورم کے حق پرست ممبران اگر یہ سوال پوچھیں گے تو ہم ضرور جواب دیں گے ، ہم تو انتظار کرتے ہیں کہ کوئی پوچھے اور ہم جواب دیں ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ ۔ لیکن تم جیسے قتل و غارت گری کے حمایتی کو سمجھانا بلکل ممکن نہیں کیوں کہ اللّه ظالموں کو ہدایت نہیں دیتا ۔ اس لئے ہم تم جیسے لوگوں کو سوال کے جواب میں سوال کر کے تڑھاتے ہیں اس لئے
امامت پر سوال کرنے سے پہلے اپنی خلافت قرآن سے ثابت کرو
اور مہربانی کر کے کاپی پیسٹ سے پرہیز کیا کرو ، کوئی بھی تمہاری پوسٹ نہیں پڑھتا ، بلکے شاید تم خود بھی نہیں پڑھتے اسی لئے تمہارے کمینٹ میں عبارتی اغلاط بہت زیادہ ہوتی ہیں
Pakistani1947
Minister (2k+ posts)
Firstly it is not appropriate to answer a question with a question. Shia needs to adjust their doctrine with Quran and only after that it is appropriate to ask such a question.
Nevertheless this question only shows the misunderstanding of some brothers about the belief of the mainstream Muslims. Believing in Khulafaaye Raashedin is not a fundamental element of Islam. According to the main stream Muslims, there are only 6 Articles of Faith and 5 pillars of Islam and believing in khilaafath of Aboobakr is not part of either of them.
Any groups of people tend to elect some one as their leader. And the rational and most reasonable way to do so is by election. This is a routine social/political practice. Certainly no system of public election was established at that time and the election of Aboobakr was done through negotiation of present people. You might think that it was not a good choice or that not all qualified people were presented at the time, that's your opinion but it has nothing to do with looking for evidences in Quran about it. It's just a routine social practice that was and is and will be done in any society and no logical mind would expect a divine evidence for that.
Having said that, once the SAHABAH of the holy prophet agree on a great SAHABAH like Abu Bakr (RA) to become the Khalifah, then it is the duty of all Muslims to obey him for the sake of Islam and unity.
Anyway, Let us review the doctrine of 12er Shia first, this is the doctrine that makes 12er Shia a SECT different from the mainstream Muslims and different from other Shia sects:
"The doctrine of Imaamat: Apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. The world cannot be empty of an Imam otherwise it will be destroyed. In the Islamic context, these individuals are 12 people among the descendants of the Holy Prophet who are appointed by no one but God to lead Muslims. Any one who chooses any leader other than these 12 is misguided and not a complete believer. The twelfth (last) of the above Imams is Mahdi and is alive and in occultation (now) for more than 1000 years and will come out of his occultation when God wants".
The above is the core belief of 12er Shia. They consider 5 articles of belief as fundamentals of their religion. These are: Tawheed (Oneness of God) - Nabuwwat (Prophet hood) - Ma'ad (Day of Judgement) - Adl (Justice of God) and IMAAMAT (The above doctrine).
In another way to put it they some times refer to 5 pillars of Islam to be: Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj and IMAAMAT. They further hold that the latter (Imaamat) is the most important one. Since all other four pillars of Islam ( Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj) are mentioned very clearly and repeatedly in Qur'an; IMAAMAT being fifth and most important pillar of 12er Shia faith, it must also be mentioned in Qur'an very clearly and repeatedly.
The above shows the importance of Imaamat in Shia doctrine. And when I say Imaamat I don't mean Leadership. Certainly leadership is an important issue not only for Muslims but also for any group of people. Imaamat here means the above specific doctrine.
One of the main reason I try to avoid Shias that very quickly become abusive, vulgar and personal. If you do not have answer to my question then it is fine! I am OK with that but please refrain from above mentioned attributes of a classical Shia.
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such bolo
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
اہل سنہ کی تمام تفاسیر میں اولی الامر سے مراد حاکم/امیر وقت ہی لی گئی ہے....ہ
شیعہ تفاسیر کا آپ جانیں
Pakistani1947
Minister (2k+ posts)
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Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Verse: "Obey Allah and Obey the Apostle and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority." (Verse 4:59) was revealed in connection with 'Abdullah bin Hudhafa bin Qais bin 'Adi' when the Prophet appointed him as the commander of a Sariyya (army detachment). (Sahih Bukhari; Book #60, Hadith #108)
Now, according to 12er Shia, apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. Hence the word " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " in the verse of Qur'an (4:59) can not be refered to 12er Shia Imam becasue the same verse says "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter" so if the word " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " in the verse of Qur'an (4:59) means 12er Shia imams than since according to "their" believe these Imams are infallible, one can not dispute these Imam, on the other hand Qur'an does not say if you dispute with " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " you will become Kafir, instead, it say "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger."
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khan_sultan
Banned
ha ha ha najadi bhagorey agar tum itney knowldge waley hotey to sirf copy paste nheen kertey
tum itney jahil hoonkey is ka hisaab hi nheen bolo kion?
is leaey key jb debate hoti hainto mukhalif fareeq key kutb sai mustanad hawwaley lagaey jatey hain
leken in per aiman lana lazim naheen kion ? Agar un ko hi hum maan laen to phr vhi maslak naah qabool ker laen ?
tum kia debate kero gaey ? Naah to tum apni kitaboon per aeman rakhtey hoo aur naah hii Quraan per kion ? Hadees rasool paak hai key main do chezen chhor ker ja raha hoon aik Quraan dosrey merey Ahlbaet aab aQuraan Aur Ahlbat hain sath sath tum ney Ahlbait koo chhor dia to tumara Quraan sai kia wasta ? Ya tum is ko kesey samjhoo gaey ? Tumarey bare khud keh gai key Ali as naah hotey to main halak hoo jata too tumari kia auqaat hai ?
Aab merey sawal ka jawab do
agar aik bacha fajar key waqt peda hoo tonis ko azan aqamat main aslath khair min alnom parhonga y ya naheen ?
Aur agar vh zubar asar maghrib asha key waqt hoo paeda to konsi azan do gaey fajar wali ya baqi wali ? Agar baqi wali to fajar wali kion naheen ?
dosra agar debate kerni hai to medan tyar hai idhar koi teen sunni shIa bhi munsif bna letey hain chuntq main hoon iion key do sunni hoon gai aur phir idhar debate kertey hain key khlafat imamat per aur hawaley mukhalif fareeq ki kutub sai tyar hoo too aajana medan main yaad rahey tum apni khlafat hamari kutub sai sabit kero gaey phli dosri teesri chothi aur joo naah khoefa koo man y naah baet krey aur jung kerey is ka islma kia hai iia vh baghi hain? Aur baghi ki sazankia hai ?
Ready hoo to batana
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There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
تمہارا تکفیری ہونا تمھیں بچا گیا
There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
لکھے منہ سا ! پڑھے خود آ
Pakistani1947
Minister (2k+ posts)
I understand you do not have any answer to the following questions:
Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?
It is OK. Thanks for not being "too much" abusive and personal!
If you ever try to answer above question then please make sure you give the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
Since all other four pillars of Islam ( Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj) are mentioned very clearly and repeatedly in Qur'an; IMAAMAT being fifth and most important pillar of 12er Shia faith, it must also be mentioned in Qur'an very clearly and repeatedly.
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QaiserMirza
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
نماز مسلمانوں کی عبادت ہے اور مسلمان اپنے نبی اکرم تقلید کرتے ہیں
اب کسی عیسائی یا نصرانی یا رآافضی یا ہندو کو ضرورت نہیں کہ وہ مسلمانوں کو بتاۓ کہ ان کو عبادت کیسے کرنی چاہیے
اور نہ ہی کسی مسلمان کو ضرورت ہے کہ وہ ان سے مشورے لے
آپ حضرات سے درخواست ہے کہ الله اور اس کے رسول کے احکمات کو یہاں اجاگر کریں تا کہ دوسرے بھائیوں کو سیکھنے کا موقع ملے
الله تعالی آپ کو دین کی اشاعت پر بہترین جزا عطا فرمائے
There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
I just read the first few lines of your previous post, it says khalafat is not a mandatory issue. So shia are not kaffir because they do not consider your first 3 khalifa right. Well if you do consider us Muslim, than you have to answer my question which I asked member Such Bolo.
So go ahead , give me any hadees/aayat about اولی الامر
If you dont have any hadees or aayat then it will be proved that you guys have rubbed this detail!
From Quran alone , is not enough becoz of the hadees : quran and sunat
and know this , I never abuse anybody! AAll I present in my posts, is only truth!
Pakistani1947
Minister (2k+ posts)
Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
As mentioned earlier by Brother "such bolo" that for main stream Muslims the meaning of the word "waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ)" is very clear, that is, those who have authority over you such as a ruler, King, Khalifa or it may be a Army General. See my above post#28 which includes the translations by many renowned translators.
Now, according to 12er Shia, apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. Hence the word " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " in the verse of Qur'an (4:59) can not be refered to 12er Shia Imam becasue the same verse says "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter" so if the word " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " in the verse of Qur'an (4:59) means 12er Shia imams than since according to "their" believe these Imams are infallible, one can not dispute these Imam, on the other hand Qur'an does not say if you dispute with " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " you will become Kafir, instead, it say "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger."
Why only when it comes to Imaamat, we need Hadeeth to help us? We don't need a Hadeeth to understand from Quran that reading prayer, performing Hajj, fasting, Jihad etc. are obligatory upon Muslims. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that a Muslim needs to believe in Oneness of God and his Prophets and the Hereafter. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that God has angels, there were Prophets in the history of mankind and some of them had books, and that the destiny of man is in the hands of God. All of the sudden when it comes to Imaamat, Hadeeth becomes a vital tool to understand Quran . Since all other four pillars of Islam ( Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj) are mentioned very clearly and repeatedly in Qur'an; IMAAMAT being fifth and most important pillar of 12er Shia faith, it must also be mentioned in Qur'an very clearly and repeatedly.
Quran how ever does not need a tool to be understandable. It is written in Quran that this book has been made easy to get guidance from. It is true that the Prophet explains certain verses of Quran but explaining is different from interpreting. Explaining means giving the details. Interpreting means giving the meaning. Quran needs no tool to be meaningful otherwise it wasn't the book of guidance. Also there are many contradictory Hadeeth in explaining verses of Quran and at the end of the day it is impossible to verify exactly which ones are authentic. How could God expect people of our time to use Hadeeth to understand the MEANING of Quran? Is this the way that God says in Quran that Truth and False are separated and clear evidences have been shown? I don't think so.
Now let's come to the question I asked you (if you have any answer to my following questions):
Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?
If you ever try to answer above question then please make sure you give the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
Note: If you do not know the answer to above question or you do not want to answer above question, it is still OK but please instead of answering my question do not just throw a quetion to avoid answering my questions!
As mentioned earlier by Brother "such bolo" that for main stream Muslims the meaning of the word "waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ)" is very clear, that is, those who have authority over you such as a ruler, King, Khalifa or it may be a Army General. See my above post#28 which includes the translations by many renowned translators.
Now, according to 12er Shia, apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. Hence the word " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " in the verse of Qur'an (4:59) can not be refered to 12er Shia Imam becasue the same verse says "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter" so if the word " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " in the verse of Qur'an (4:59) means 12er Shia imams than since according to "their" believe these Imams are infallible, one can not dispute these Imam, on the other hand Qur'an does not say if you dispute with " waolee alamri (وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ) " you will become Kafir, instead, it say "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger."
Why only when it comes to Imaamat, we need Hadeeth to help us? We don't need a Hadeeth to understand from Quran that reading prayer, performing Hajj, fasting, Jihad etc. are obligatory upon Muslims. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that a Muslim needs to believe in Oneness of God and his Prophets and the Hereafter. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that God has angels, there were Prophets in the history of mankind and some of them had books, and that the destiny of man is in the hands of God. All of the sudden when it comes to Imaamat, Hadeeth becomes a vital tool to understand Quran . Since all other four pillars of Islam ( Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj) are mentioned very clearly and repeatedly in Qur'an; IMAAMAT being fifth and most important pillar of 12er Shia faith, it must also be mentioned in Qur'an very clearly and repeatedly.
Quran how ever does not need a tool to be understandable. It is written in Quran that this book has been made easy to get guidance from. It is true that the Prophet explains certain verses of Quran but explaining is different from interpreting. Explaining means giving the details. Interpreting means giving the meaning. Quran needs no tool to be meaningful otherwise it wasn't the book of guidance. Also there are many contradictory Hadeeth in explaining verses of Quran and at the end of the day it is impossible to verify exactly which ones are authentic. How could God expect people of our time to use Hadeeth to understand the MEANING of Quran? Is this the way that God says in Quran that Truth and False are separated and clear evidences have been shown? I don't think so.
Now let's come to the question I asked you (if you have any answer to my following questions):
Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?
If you ever try to answer above question then please make sure you give the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
Note: If you do not know the answer to above question or you do not want to answer above question, it is still OK but please instead of answering my question do not just throw a quetion to avoid answering my questions!
There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
قرآن میں میں لفظ امام بھی دکھا دوں گا اور یہ بھی کہ تمام چیزوں کا کنکریوں پر حساب امام مبین میں اللّه نے رکھ دیا ہے ، یہاں بھی تم لوگ اپنی کہانی شروع کر دو گے اور تم پہلے کی طرح بھول جاؤ گے کہ تم نے صرف قرآن کی شرط رکھی ہے اور کسی وضاحت کو ماننے سے انکار کیا ہے
کتنی بار بتانا پڑے گا کہ اولی الامر کے ماملے میں ہمارا تم سے اختلاف ہے اور اسی آیت میں حکم ہے کہ تمام اختلاف رسول اور اللّه کی طرف پلٹاؤ ۔ اس لئے اگر تم ہمیں مسلمان سمجھتے ہو تو ہمیں اولی الامر سے مطلق کوئی حدیث یا آیت دکھاؤ ، ورنہ مان لو کہ تم لوگوں کو اولی الامر سے متعلق حدیث پسند نہیں ائی اور تم نے مٹا ڈالی
قرآن میں میں لفظ امام بھی دکھا دوں گا اور یہ بھی کہ تمام چیزوں کا کنکریوں پر حساب امام مبین میں اللّه نے رکھ دیا ہے ، یہاں بھی تم لوگ اپنی کہانی شروع کر دو گے اور تم پہلے کی طرح بھول جاؤ گے کہ تم نے صرف قرآن کی شرط رکھی ہے اور کسی وضاحت کو ماننے سے انکار کیا ہے
Pakistani1947
Minister (2k+ posts)
Re: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
I do not understand why you are trying to avoid answering a valid question regarding 5th basic pillar of 12er Shia faith. The whole Shia doctrine is standing on this fragile pillar!
Since all other four pillars of Islam ( Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj) are mentioned very clearly and repeatedly in Qur'an; IMAAMAT being fifth and most important pillar of 12er Shia faith, it must also be mentioned in Qur'an very clearly and repeatedly.
Now let's come to the question I asked you (if you have any answer to my following questions):
Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?
If you ever try to answer above question then please make sure you give the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
Note: If you do not know the answer to above question or you do not want to answer above question, it is still OK but please instead of answering my question do not just throw a quetion to avoid answering my questions!
I do not understand why you are trying to avoid answering a valid question regarding 5th basic pillar of 12er Shia faith. The whole Shia doctrine is standing on this fragile pillar!
Since all other four pillars of Islam ( Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj) are mentioned very clearly and repeatedly in Qur'an; IMAAMAT being fifth and most important pillar of 12er Shia faith, it must also be mentioned in Qur'an very clearly and repeatedly.
Now let's come to the question I asked you (if you have any answer to my following questions):
Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?
If you ever try to answer above question then please make sure you give the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
Note: If you do not know the answer to above question or you do not want to answer above question, it is still OK but please instead of answering my question do not just throw a quetion to avoid answering my questions!
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There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Re: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ ۚ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ
36:12
verses with NO additions to the translation!!!!
:)
Please acknowledge and we shall move to your further question!
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ ۚ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ
36:12
verses with NO additions to the translation!!!!
:)
Please acknowledge and we shall move to your further question!
karachiwala
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
since we have to shia trollers here on this thread, I also have a question - who is greater in status, The Prophet PBUH, Hazrat Ali Radi Allahu Anhu or Hazrat Fatima Radi Allau Anha? Please do not answer this question with another question like you always do.
There is only 1
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
پنجابی کا ایک شعر یاد آ رہا ہے
پہلا حق اللّه اے تے دوجا اے رسول
تیجا حق علی اے تے چوتھا اے بتول
آپ نے سوال کرنے سے منع فرمایا ہے پھر بھی تجسس کے ہاتھوں مجبور ہوں کہ آپ کے اس سوال کا مقصد کیا تھا
QaiserMirza
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
آپ نے ان سے "جبرائیل امین" کا مقام اور رتبہ نہیں پوچھا
