Zaid Hamid The Roar of a Lion- Absolutely Demolishes Fawad the jumper Choudhary !

[SaadKnight]

@modern.fakir & @SaadKnight,


I was going through the conversation of both brothers and I couldn't resist to ask:


Why are 2 Muslims Pakistani's arguing with each other:


1. On the basis of knowledge of Islam? or
2. Zaid Hamid is good or bad?
3. Red cap is the sign of Khilafat?
4. Zaid Hamid is a darveesh or not?
5. Will Khilafat come again?
6. Dr.Israr Ahmed was good or bad?


I know this for a fact:


1. Islam is the only religion selected by ALLAH for his creations.
2. Khilafat will be implemented again, red cap or not.
3. There are Pakistani's who even abuse Quaid-e-Azam & Allama Iqbal today. Does this mean we stop respecting them?
4. ALLAH has a system to get his work done through means we cannot even begin to comprehend. So if he gets his work done by giving hidayat to any one, we cannot even understand His divine hikmat.
5. I have heard Zaid Hamid live also, and I think that whether he is right or wrong, time will tell. Even zardari claims to be innocent today, so we cannot go on anyone's self claims, can we.
6. We should stand as one, i.e, Muslims. This is the need of the hour and only this will lead us to a better tomorrow.

Well I just asked him an authentic source for the red cap to be the sign of the khilafat.

He started going sideways and started babbling all about what his sect believes in and questions others.

I just pointed out that this specific cap culture was adopted to please the west for which I had to give long details seeing his long and sense less details which he still is giving out without any thinking and research and still is trying to say that the adoptions from the west can be a sign of the khilafat. huh....

I agree with your 6 points, all of them.

I am trying to be sect less here by trying to give historical accounts on that cap but he is clearly giving indications to which sect he belongs and is giving sense less (if he can understand the context of the word sense less here) accounts on that cap. By reading a little bit of history it can be said that this cap culture is the sign of the fall of the khilafat.

And he has still not given me an authentic source for that red cap. I can go on to argue about the kind of cap that his sect wears and why so clear contradiction but that would become extremely sectarian issue. And I hate sectarian discussions with the people of other sects.

I was just passing by, reading the thread and trying to see where did zaid hamid bash fawad motu but I saw no place where he did bash him. Although what he said in that discussion was right. I would have left this thread untouched but I could not resist when I saw this written:

[QOUTE]
Red cap is the sign of khilafat[/QOUTE]

 

[Star Gazer]

Example is given by mr. Fawad that even in USA all parliamentarians do not take part in discussion,is funny he does not know that no one in USA is doing drone attacks.

Mr. Fawad says that our sovereignty is being violated by the terrorist and USA is he equating both of them?

Aik dr-one on the houses of these defenders of this stupid war will make ideas very clear. Fawad sahib did not even mention once that more than 40,000 people are killed by this heinous war many times over than those killed in the war zone area of Afghanistan.

We have noticed that since the NATO supply has been stopped suicide bombing has gone down drastically.This fact alone in enough to prove that this war is stupid and Fawad sahib is a part of this spectrum.

 

[modern.fakir]

My sentiments exactly ! .. I was just trying to clarify an exception raised at something ..no harm or malice intended .:)

@modern.fakir & @SaadKnight,


I was going through the conversation of both brothers and I couldn't resist to ask:


Why are 2 Muslims Pakistani's arguing with each other:


1. On the basis of knowledge of Islam? or
2. Zaid Hamid is good or bad?
3. Red cap is the sign of Khilafat?
4. Zaid Hamid is a darveesh or not?
5. Will Khilafat come again?
6. Dr.Israr Ahmed was good or bad?


I know this for a fact:


1. Islam is the only religion selected by ALLAH:subhan: for his creations.

2. Khilafat will be implemented again, red cap or not.

3. There are Pakistani's who even abuse Quaid-e-Azam & Allama Iqbal today. Does this mean we stop respecting them?

4. ALLAH :subhan: has a system to get his work done through means we cannot even begin to comprehend. So if he gets his work done by giving hidayat to any one, we cannot even understand His divine hikmat.

5. I have heard Zaid Hamid live also, and I think that whether he is right or wrong, time will tell. Even zardari claims to be innocent today, so we cannot go on anyone's self claims, can we.

6. We should stand as one, i.e, Muslims. This is the need of the hour and only this will lead us to a better tomorrow.

 

[modern.fakir]

Brother, you review your posts and see who is trying to pigeon-hole who in a sect! here. You finally spilled the beans yourself :). Your whole point was to show your displeasure for what you call is a sect, which is why you started the whole conversation.

Now you read your post above from the topic of a Red Cap being the symbol of a Khilafah which Known men like Allama Iqbal ra, the entire ottomon empire and other have worn at time or another you have just divided yourself into sects and parties !

You tell me is this good intellect ?..Is this what Islam teaches us ?...If the ottomon empire, the entire pakistani nation from the ones who love Iqbal Ra and Quaid e Azam Ra are all from a sect then this sect must be the right one or the Ijma -

Can you even imagine how the Ottomon empire encompassed the entire muslim ummah ? - Is that a sect for you :) ?

On the contrary if you read all this in perspective ...some of your thoughts seem to be representing a minority !

Well I just asked him an authentic source for the red cap to be the sign of the khilafat.

He started going sideways and started babbling all about what his sect believes in and questions others.

I just pointed out that this specific cap culture was adopted to please the west for which I had to give long details seeing his long and sense less details which he still is giving out without any thinking and research and still is trying to say that the adoptions from the west can be a sign of the khilafat. huh....

I agree with your 6 points, all of them.

I am trying to be sect less here by trying to give historical accounts on that cap but he is clearly giving indications to which sect he belongs and is giving sense less (if he can understand the context of the word sense less here) accounts on that cap. By reading a little bit of history it can be said that this cap culture is the sign of the fall of the khilafat.

And he has still not given me an authentic source for that red cap. I can go on to argue about the kind of cap that his sect wears and why so clear contradiction but that would become extremely sectarian issue. And I hate sectarian discussions with the people of other sects.

I was just passing by, reading the thread and trying to see where did zaid hamid bash fawad motu but I saw no place where he did bash him. Although what he said in that discussion was right. I would have left this thread untouched but I could not resist when I saw this written:

[QOUTE]
Red cap is the sign of khilafat[/QOUTE]

 

[SaadKnight]

Brother, you review your posts and see who is trying to pigeon-hole who in a sect! here. You finally spilled the beans yourself :). Your whole point was to show your displeasure for what you call is a sect, which is why you started the whole conversation.

Now you read your post above from the topic of a Red Cap being the symbol of a Khilafah which Known men like Allama Iqbal ra, the entire ottomon empire and other have worn at time or another you have just divided yourself into sects and parties !

You tell me is this good intellect ?..Is this what Islam teaches us ?...If the ottomon empire, the entire pakistani nation from the ones who love Iqbal Ra and Quaid e Azam Ra are all from a sect then this sect must be the right one or the Ijma -

Can you even imagine how the Ottomon empire encompassed the entire muslim ummah ? - Is that a sect for you :) ?

On the contrary if you read all this in perspective ...some of your thoughts seem to be representing a minority !

Whatever.

Read again, and think. Adoption of western customs have always been the reason of fall of the muslim ummah. It was true in the time of Khilafat-e-Usmania and it is true now. You quoted the hadees yourself what Prophet Muhammad pbuh said about the times after him. Khilafat-e-Usmania was a monarchy and although it might have done good things but in the 19th century it became weak and it adopted some western customs which resulted in the fall of Khilafat-e-Usmania at the hand Kamal Ata Turk who was the ultimate result of those adoptions.

No offense by the way. its a fact that need to be accepted.

 

[modern.fakir]

And NO offense taken ! :)

Adoption of western values may have been a cause of the demise of the ottomon empire in your opinion. But in my opinion it was our leaders shifting away from the path of Islam which was more a demise. The reason i say this is because the turkish people and the surrounding geography even to this day is entrenched in what was known as western or christian culture at that time. Lets not forget that the ottomon empire was the Islamic Successor to the Roman Byzentine Empire (which is what you would call a western empire).

Just like Pakistanis have some descendants of Hindu converts as well. But we can still have traditions of subcontinental culture and still be staunch muslims - Alhamdolillah !

So islam is not against any culture or race infact it is all encompassing !. But rather when the culture or race moves away from Islamic Teachings and the shariah and the love of the Prophet pbuh .. Allah swt replaces them with another nation :). This logic is not mine but according to the verse of the Quran ...

"And if you turn away (from Islam and the obedience of Allah), He will substitute you for some other people, and they will not be like you." Quran 47:38

Likewise Allah (swt) first chose the Jews, the Bani Israel as he tells it in the holy Quran:

"O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I preferred you to all other nations."(Quran 2:47).

That favor was that they should become the torchbearers of the knowledge of God to the world. This was the honor, this was the privilege that was at first given to the Jews But because they did not fulfil their end of the obligation, a Jew amongst the Jews Hazrat Isa (A.S.) as recorded in the Christian gospels told them "That the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."(The Bible, Matthew 21:43).

And that nation, we will happily own up is the Islamic ummah. It was taken away from the Jews and given to the Muslims. The Muslims then, among them who were the Arabs at first, were given by Allah (SWT)the privilege that they became the torchbearers of light and learning to the world , but when they relaxed and failed to bring forth the fruits, Allah(swt) replaced them with another nation. In history, we remember the Turks and Mongols destroyed the Muslim empire and when they accepted Islam they became the torchbearers of light and learning to the world.


So you see my friend the jews, christians, arabs, turks, mongols ...all these are seperate races with distinct cultures that have adopted Islam but the baton of Islam was passed over from one race to another because they MOVED AWAY FROM ISLAMIC Teachings. But that does not mean that the entire culture of those people is bad !:)

Some western values are very good, such as:

- Kindness to animals
- Not tolerating corrupt leaders


and so on and so forth, but it is because of their other values which are against Islamic teachings which is why they cant be full role models for us.


Likewise the wearing of the red cap was a sign of the khilafah and was not in any way against the tenets of Islam, as it was part of the muslim and muslim army culture of a Great Caliphate which made muslims proud and protected their interests .
:)

The sad part is that instead of being proud of our elders and what they had done despite the fact that some of what they did was wrong we are being part of the Hadith that states :

" The newer ones of the Religion will Curse the older ones" :)

Even then my Akka pbuh was asked ..Ya Rasullah ..what should be done in such a situation ?

He Replied " Cling to the sunnah " now what is that Sunnah

3. The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islam”. (Abu Dawud)


This one is truly classic ...The Red Cap was worn by the khalifah and Allam Iqbal Ra and now some people tell us that this was not so.

The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: ” In the period prior to the Day of Judgement, false and deceitful groups will emerge. They will say things to you, which neither you nor your forefathers will have ever heard before. Stay away from these deceitful people and do not let them come near you! Do not be misguided by them and do not let them cause strife amongst you!” (Sahih Muslim)

Indeed Ya RasullAllah ...How right you are !


Now NO ONE can Deny the Fact that the Ottomon Empire did not represent the Majority of the Muslim IJMA

No ONE can deny the fact that Allama Iqbal Ra was not the spiritual leader of the majority of Muslims of the Subcontinent.

If these two facts dont consitute the majority then can someone tell me WHAT IS A MAJORITY :)

Whatever.

Read again, and think. Adoption of western customs have always been the reason of fall of the muslim ummah. It was true in the time of Khilafat-e-Usmania and it is true now. You quoted the hadees yourself what Prophet Muhammad pbuh said about the times after him. Khilafat-e-Usmania was a monarchy and although it might have done good things but in the 19th century it became weak and it adopted some western customs which resulted in the fall of Khilafat-e-Usmania at the hand Kamal Ata Turk who was the ultimate result of those adoptions.

No offense by the way. its a fact that need to be accepted.

 

[modern.fakir]

and to your point this hadith :

Shafi`i continues (Risala p. 253): "The Prophet's order that men should follow the Muslim community is a proof that the Ijma` of the Muslims is binding." Later on (p. 286) he quotes the hadith whereby the Prophet said: "Believe my Companions, then those who succeed them, and after that those who succeed the Successors. But after them falsehood will prevail when people will swear to the truth without having been asked to swear, and testify without having been asked to testify. Only those who seek the pleasures of Paradise will keep to the Congregation..."

Even here my Akka pbuh has never said to disobey the Ijma. Even though according to you the Red Cap was a western influence but the IJMA or consensus accepted it and wore it. So we are supposed to "Follow the congregation" . Which is what we are doing (bigsmile)

Can you show me a Hadith which says discard the Congregation and do as you please incase your rulers go corrupt ?:)

 

[SaadKnight]

Sorry, not agreed with your view point. Things are not that simple.

Your heavily lacking a lot of background knowledge on a lot of things and you are enforcing your limited sectarian point of view, and I am not here for a sectarian discussion although I can take you on on sectarian ground as well but that will yield no +ve result.

Do not expect any kind reply from me now.

And NO offense taken ! :)

Adoption of western values may have been a cause of the demise of the ottomon empire in your opinion. But in my opinion it was our leaders shifting away from the path of Islam which was more a demise. The reason i say this is because the turkish people and the surrounding geography even to this day is entrenched in what was known as western or christian culture at that time. Lets not forget that the ottomon empire was the Islamic Successor to the Roman Byzentine Empire (which is what you would call a western empire).

Just like Pakistanis have some descendants of Hindu converts as well. But we can still have traditions of subcontinental culture and still be staunch muslims - Alhamdolillah !

So islam is not against any culture or race infact it is all encompassing !. But rather when the culture or race moves away from Islamic Teachings and the shariah and the love of the Prophet pbuh .. Allah swt replaces them with another nation :). This logic is not mine but according to the verse of the Quran ...

"And if you turn away (from Islam and the obedience of Allah), He will substitute you for some other people, and they will not be like you." Quran 47:38

Likewise Allah (swt) first chose the Jews, the Bani Israel as he tells it in the holy Quran:

"O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I preferred you to all other nations."(Quran 2:47).

That favor was that they should become the torchbearers of the knowledge of God to the world. This was the honor, this was the privilege that was at first given to the Jews But because they did not fulfil their end of the obligation, a Jew amongst the Jews Hazrat Isa (A.S.) as recorded in the Christian gospels told them "That the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."(The Bible, Matthew 21:43).

And that nation, we will happily own up is the Islamic ummah. It was taken away from the Jews and given to the Muslims. The Muslims then, among them who were the Arabs at first, were given by Allah (SWT)the privilege that they became the torchbearers of light and learning to the world , but when they relaxed and failed to bring forth the fruits, Allah(swt) replaced them with another nation. In history, we remember the Turks and Mongols destroyed the Muslim empire and when they accepted Islam they became the torchbearers of light and learning to the world.


So you see my friend the jews, christians, arabs, turks, mongols ...all these are seperate races with distinct cultures that have adopted Islam but the baton of Islam was passed over from one race to another because they MOVED AWAY FROM ISLAMIC Teachings. But that does not mean that the entire culture of those people is bad !:)

Some western values are very good, such as:

- Kindness to animals
- Not tolerating corrupt leaders


and so on and so forth, but it is because of their other values which are against Islamic teachings which is why they cant be full role models for us.


Likewise the wearing of the red cap was a sign of the khilafah as it was part of the muslim and muslim army culture of a Great Caliphate which made muslims proud and protected their interests .
:)

and to your point this hadith :

Shafi`i continues (Risala p. 253): "The Prophet's order that men should follow the Muslim community is a proof that the Ijma` of the Muslims is binding." Later on (p. 286) he quotes the hadith whereby the Prophet said: "Believe my Companions, then those who succeed them, and after that those who succeed the Successors. But after them falsehood will prevail when people will swear to the truth without having been asked to swear, and testify without having been asked to testify. Only those who seek the pleasures of Paradise will keep to the Congregation..."

Even here my Akka pbuh has never said to disobey the Ijma. Even though according to you the Red Cap was a western influence but the IJMA or consensus accepted it and wore it. So we are supposed to "Follow the congregation" . Which is what we are doing (bigsmile)

Can you show me a Hadith which says discard the Congregation and do as you please incase your rulers go corrupt ?:)

 

[Wasiq]

Fawaad choudry is from pp party this pp party want break pakistan his party and he himself they are traiters. he is so stupid beause he think USA want see strong pakistan,he is dreaming.PP party and Nawaz shreef party and others they are al slave of USA.

 

[modern.fakir]

Brother ..don't, for even a second conclude that I'm trying to thrust anything upon you - I'm Not ! ..I'm just responding with the knowledge i have regarding the position you have taken on a particular matter. If i feel somethings are more abstract, i present it in a concise format !

Likewise you mentioned things are not that simple and that you need books of knowledge to explain them. Then brother if you have read those books and you can summarize then please do so !. If not then no worries :)

I was just surprised and honestly quiet disturbed when some of these statements came from you, because you mention that your not here for a sectarian discussion but yet all these statements are coming from you ..

"you are enforcing your sectarian point of view,"

"started babbling all about what his sect believes in and questions others."

"he is clearly giving indications to which sect he belongs"

“Atleast I am not backing a kazzab like you are”

In one breath you are accusing me of following a sect which "Allama Iqbal Ra, Quaid E Azam, The Ottomon Empire belonged too" and in the second breath you are unilaterally issuing fatwas against Muslims !..It made me think that you are either a learned scholar or maybe you are student and want to have a healthy discussion - thats all :)

No one can make you believe if you dont want to man so - Chill Out

And I'm not expecting any response to this post ..so have fun and see you around the Forum (bigsmile)

Sorry, not agreed with your view point. Things are not that simple.

Your heavily lacking a lot of background knowledge on a lot of things and you are enforcing your limited sectarian point of view, and I am not here for a sectarian discussion although I can take you on on sectarian ground as well but that will yield no +ve result.

Do not expect any kind reply from me now.

 

[Fursan]

this army can't even find his lost troops in siachen without american support n u sayin they will stop or fight americans, these generals r biggest toddies of americans

Are you criticizing the army ??

Dont forget that despite US has technological edge, it also was not helpful in recovering the buried soldiers.

 

[Hathamreborn]

Are you criticizing the army ??

Dont forget that despite US has technological edge, it also was not helpful in recovering the buried soldiers.

Why not criticizing army??? are they holy cows??? if they do something bad they must be put on right path.... Ayub, zia and mush they all were biggest toddies and on payroll of america and still today army is getting money from america for fighting their crusader war in tribal areas