The dajjal system

[Mughal1]

Dear Mughal1,
There is day and night difference in both verses. the subject is different. 2/173 is in
continuation of 172. The addressee in 172 are those who believe.
I think your problem is that you are not approaching Quran from a neutral
position, rather you have one PRE-DETERMINED CONCEPT and wish to adjust
Quran according to your pre-determined concept and that is very dangerous.
Now with the help of "THE" you wish to convey that only "a particular type
of animal" is harram, not all those animals. that is chilling?
regards.

Dear babadeena, are you telling me that the quran does not have any particular context? Is it just a collection of random verses put together without any sense of purpose? If you have that notion about the quran then I am afraid it is result of these wrong interpretations because that was their objective to ruin the continuity of the quranic text. This is why mullas were able to mess up the minds of the people. It is because the context of the quranic text is ignored by using shaane nuzool idea that each verse is taken as separate from the rest. No wonder nonmuslims attack us from all sides because we provided them with material like this. Not only that but our own children and grand children are asking questions and we are just looking at their faces rather than provide them with answers.

I can assure you the quran is not a broken up text verse by verse but a coherent text. Surah al baqara is a consistent text beginning with what is told in surah al fatiha. The struggle between people over land, resources and means of production and distribution are main reasons for wars between people and the quran states the terms for stopping this killing and bloodshed to achieve peace and unity. It tells us in this context the story of adam and his opponent iblees then moves on to story of moses and pharaoh and then on to story of Abraham etc etc.

People are divided in to those who want and work for divine rule and others who do not and yet others who are not sure which way to go. The quran is put together in such a special way that one could not expect it that way by anyone. Each word of the quran is so specially selected for use that it cannot be replaced even with an equivalent. It is unfortunate that we have not educated ourselves to the level the quran requires for its proper understanding.

Thanks for your reply anyway, regards and all the best.

 

[babadeena]

Dear babadeena, are you telling me that the quran does not have any particular context?
Is it just a collection of random verses put together without any sense of purpose?

Dear Mughal1,
This is not what I said, this is my dear what you deducing!!! you wish
to connect without any logic or rational 2/173 to 2/165 whereas I pointed out
that 2/173 is connected with 2/172. The subject in 165 is entirely different.
Still you have not replied how the arabic word "Yatama(Orphans) have been
translated ( i suppose,RATIONALLY) as "Individuals", please enlighten me with
this logic, if there is any in that translation.
regards.

 

[Mughal1]

Dear Mughal1,
This is not what I said, this is my dear what you deducing!!! you wish
to connect without any logic or rational 2/173 to 2/165 whereas I pointed out
that 2/173 is connected with 2/172. The subject in 165 is entirely different.
Still you have not replied how the arabic word "Yatama(Orphans) have been
translated ( i suppose,RATIONALLY) as "Individuals", please enlighten me with
regards.

Dear brother please look up the meanings of word yataama in any decent dictionary if you are in doubt about meaning of the word. As for logic, it is contextual consistency in the text of the quran that is absent in translations that you love to quote.

If you let me know the context of the quran only then we can proceed otherwise you can carry on as usual ie randomly. In my view each word must be looked at in sense of over all context of the quran then in context of the surah as a whole and then in context of the verses around the verse and finally in context of the verse itself wherein the word is used.

I do not see that kind of consistency in your posts if I may say so. They seem chaotic to me when we discuss meanings of words and their context. This is why discussions become purposeless in that case.

regards and all the best.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/orphan
http://www.wordnik.com/words/orphan

 

[babadeena]

Dear brother please look up the meanings of word yataama in any decent dictionary if you are in doubt about meaning of the word. As for logic, it is contextual consistency in the text of the quran that is absent in translations that you love to quote.

If you let me know the context of the quran only then we can proceed otherwise you can carry on as usual ie randomly. In my view each word must be looked at in sense of over all context of the quran then in context of the surah as a whole and then in context of the verses around the verse and finally in context of the verse itself wherein the word is used.

I do not see that kind of consistency in your posts if I may say so. They seem chaotic to me when we discuss meanings of words and their context. This is why discussions become purposeless in that case.

regards and all the best.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/orphan
http://www.wordnik.com/words/orphan

Dear Mughal1,
I even checked your quoted dictionaries. It is your stance that we should
check the verses in their context and in consistent way. Let us check the
arabic word Yatama with the help of your quoted dictionaries and in the
contextual way. Even by this criteria your quoted translation is a disaster.
If for example the word "Orphan" in an dictionary is conveying many meanings,
it does not mean that one should pick a random meaning as your translation is.
Please pick any verse from Quran and I will, inshallah tell you the subject,
context, the start and the end. I am afraid the way you are adopting a
translation, the integrity of which carries a BIG QUESTION MARK, will lead
you or anyone to nowhere. I will be more than happy to discuss any
verse from whole of Quran depending upon your criteria of text, context and
consistency. But for me these three things never and should not translate
a word which is no where nearer to its original meaning, text-wise, and context wise.
regards.

 

[Mughal1]

Dear brother, my point here is that not only word yateem has various meanings but other words as well.

My question is if words have various meanings in a verse how does anyone come to know which meaning one should pick for each of these words? It matters not it is I or you or anyone else for that matter.

This is where rule of context of the quran starts making sense. Because without it none can be sure that one has translated or interpreted the quran correctly.

It is for this reason knowing the context of the quran to begin with becomes important and that is the reason we have surah alfatiha in the beginning because it tells us how to look at the quran as a divine message in an overall context. The quran is divine constitution for mankind to follow but it was given to muslims to start with so that they let it be known to the rest of the world.

Now when we look at it as a divine constitution we need to also observe the state of our world as well as to how people already exist and live. To begin with there is no one already living as per any divine constitutions already in the world eg toraat, zaboor and injeel. So the prophet starts his mission but all communities are divided and are at each others throat.

The situation is that there is no muslim community to begin with but only the constitution and then there is a divine constitution and a muslim community but no state to implement divine constitution in and finally we have divine constitution, the muslim community and the state. This tells us how to look at various quranic verses. Not all verses of the quran apply to all situations and circumstances at the same time. So we are given verses in the quran which apply only and only when there is an islamic state. Others only and only apply when there is no islamic state but there is/are muslim community/ies. Yet other verses apply always.

So I hope this makes my point of view clear for you. You may agree with it or not but in case of disagreement you need to explain how do you look at the quran so that our explanations make sense to each other as well as other interested parties.


Thank you for reply, regards and all the best.

 

[babadeena]

Dear brother Mughal1,
I think we have basic difference, that is our approach towards Quran!
I approach it from a very neutral position, whereas u r from a already pre-determined
concept. For me Quran is a book containing mainly:
a) past historical events;
b) those events which happened during that time when Quran was being
revealed. for present days people those are also now "past"
c) Perpetual and ever-lasting commands, about life, death, social life, business,
day-to-day living.
Quran is the only book of this Universe which comes automatically into the
comprehension of its readers, provided there is intention, continuity,
permanency, etc. etc. Therefore its text with context is automatically clear.
That is the beauty and an ample proof of this divine book.
Taking into account mine perception of Quran, you can pick any verse
from Quran and I can discuss it with you, provided you are from a neutral
position.

 

[Mughal1]

Thank you dear brother babadeena for helping me to see where you stand regarding translation and interpretation of the quran. I am afraid I agree with you that we are miles apart on this issue.

As I see it past people deconstructed islam as a concept and then reconstructed their own versions. First they turned deen into religion and then religion became sects and all this was done to divide muslims and to rule them, which is anti islam to begin with. In islam no man is master nor any man slave of any other man.

It was done by imperialists who claimed to be muslims yet destroyed islam from within by first working towards positions of power and then slowly strangling the forces of islam and then gradually moving islam out of their way by creating and using the priestly class.

It is these very people who did not build any real educational institutions for research and exploration of islam rather they built brainwashing institutions which indoctrinated and conditioned people from childhood to their altered versions of islam ensuring new muslim generations were religious muslims not deeni muslims.

This let them use and abuse people at will and create their own laws in the name of islam that suited them. This is the time period from where almost all translation and interpretations of islam originate.

It is for muslims to realise this trick that has been played on them and to deconstruct this religious version of islam and bring back the original deene islam and we can do that because we have concrete rules on one hand and original text of the quran on the other.

It is in this context some muslims have been making the attempts every now and again but they have not been very successful because they have been trying it as individuals against the state machinery and the ruling elite and their mullahs and the masses that followed them.

However, enough noise has been made that people are by now aware that something is wrong with islam that is wide spread but they have little idea what exactly it is. Each sect is accusing others for being wrong but not itself. It is because they still have not realised that real problem lies with translations and interpretations of the quran that they have within their own hands. They still suffer great influence of personality cult this is why they have problem with assessing the information on its own by rules for its validity. They also yet do not realise the importance of following rules nor are they bothered to find out for themselves as to which rules are proper and which are not and how those rules relate to each other as building blocks.

It is for this reason certain translations and interpretation appear to them as something new and their reaction is better staying away from them.

Once debates and discussion begin seriously, things will fall into place because truth is very clear when looked at through commonly accepted rules as common ground ie following evidence wherever it leads. It is because we have been indoctrinated to look at things irrelevant to rules because rules prove our make beliefs false and we do not want to give up our those very dearly held make beliefs. Therefore we give up on looking at things by using the rules.

It is like maths formulas and numbers. We just want to play with numbers without referring to ways of doing calculations properly.

What happens if we take the quran according to commonly accepted rules that cannot be refuted no matter what?

1)Take laws of nature for example, following the way the world works stops us from accepting all stories about so called miracles or impossible events. This will mean all translation and interpretation against this rule are wrong so the words in the quran must be taken to mean other things but not miracles or impossible things because Allah claims to be wise and is supposed to show us his wisdom in the quran.

This is is first deconstruction of islam as a mazhab and its first reconstruction as a deen.

2)Rules of wisdom eg both contradictory statement cannot be true at the same time in the same sense. Either both are false are only one may be true. Different statements are not necessarily contradictory.

This rule tells us to say goodbye to all nonsense translations and interpretations of the quran as well as any stories and concepts attributed to the quran that show as if there are contradictions within the quran or they show there are contradictions in between what the quran says and what we actually observe in the real world.

3)The rule of grammar and the text of the quran ensure that we remain within these limits when translating and interpreting the quran. This takes in to account the interlace style of the quranic text.

4)before anything else we must bring out the purpose of the quran and decide its framework within which any translation or interpretation must remain to be as near to its intended message as possible even if exact. The idea is to not to be totally wrong and absurd in translating and interpreting the quranic text. That is what we find in the existing translations and interpretations which goes to show that these people just did not bother with knowing and using the rules to their proper effect.

So looking at these rules one can see if any person translates or interprets the quran within these limits then his translation or interpretation cannot be called a free or random translation or interpretation.

No ancient translation or interpretation meets this criterion because they were all done according to make beliefs and this can be proven using these stated rules.

All tafaseer are full of make belief based stories and laws because that was the intention of the imperialist rulers and their mullahs ie to confuse muslim masses and to take them away from deene islam into mazhabe islam and into sectarianism.

Creating confusion leads to ignorance and troubles and that is where we are today and have been for a very very long time.

We will never get out of this confusion till we accept the diagnoses by great scholars of islam like sir seyyed, iqbal, jinnah and parwez and the like before and after them.

Khilaafat based on religious grounds is imperialism in the name of islam because mullahs will implement their shariah not quran based shariah. Mullaism is anti islam not islam. Theocracy will strangle us not make us prosperous.

Thanks again for sharing your views and may Allah guide us all to what is true and proper.

regards and all the best.

 

[babadeena]

regarding translation and interpretation of the quran.
I am afraid I agree with you that we are miles apart on this issue.

Yes dear Brother, We are miles apart on this issue of interpretation of
Quran. I 100 percent and definitely do not agree with your way of
interpretation. thanks