Point Blank - 31st may 2010 - Alama Ibtasam Ilahi Zaheer, Kia Londi Rekhna Jaaiz hai ?????

abduttawwab

MPA (400+ posts)
Thanks for giving the reference. Do you any more verses or should we concentrate over these only. If only on these two, then now I am supposing that your are saying that "Yes" it is permissible to have "relations" with loondi without Nikah.
a) وْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ includes both men and women, but I take that you mean here it is referring only ladies; yes or no
b) What about if ladies do not wish to have relations with the owner? or according to you they have to(must): Yes or No.
Thanks once again. I hope your reply will be short and quick.

I don't know whether there are more supporting verses or not. What I'd in my memory I've quoted here without studying it in detail and referring to the tafaseer, as the matter is very simple and straight-forward.
Since to you 'ONLY QURAN' with your interpretations 'is enough' and you don't trust on Ahadith and Tafaseer, pl let us know what you could understand from the above verses? and why Allah has specified wives and slave women separately here?


وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ
إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ
فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذٰلِكَ فَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ
(70: 29-31)
And those who guard their private parts, Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,
But he who seeks to go beyond this, these it is that go beyond the limits
 
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babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)

I don't know whether there are more supporting verses or not. What I'd in my memory I've quoted here without studying it in detail and referring to the tafaseer, as the matter is very simple and straight-forward.
Since to you 'ONLY QURAN' with your interpretations 'is enough' and you don't trust on Ahadith and Tafaseer, pl let us know what you could understand from the above verses? and why Allah has specified wives and slave women separately here?


وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ
إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ
فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذٰلِكَ فَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ
(70: 29-31)
And those who guard their private parts, Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,
But he who seeks to go beyond this, these it is that go beyond the limits

In twentyfour hours time, you could not get any thing from Quran, except that you repeated again the same verse. If you "do now know", then at lease answer yes or No to my questions, A & B. I think there may be Hadiths which say that even if Loondis does not wish to have "relation", the owner has the
right to get the "pleasure". Now be straightforward and not resort to that strategy that when "confronted with Quran, label the person "Quran-Only". Foqia Khan post is informative perhaps that may help you to form your answers.

وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ

3. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who
seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to
so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is
more likely that ye will not do injustice.
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women
of your choice two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal
justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That
will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice

Now pay Attention: The arabic word فَانكِحُواْ is governing both categories of ladies one who are النِّسَاءِ and
those who are أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ .Now bring your bruhaan which you and deny me that if the arabic word Nikaah is
not governing both categories of ladies. Otherwise you may bring from Quran a clear verse as I am bringing that
says that without Nikkah you can have loondis.(Ma Malkat). Please take the assistance of your Ulemas and ask
them only one question if this word Nikah covers both categories or if they have any other clear verse from Quran.
 

Bret Hawk

Senator (1k+ posts)
There’s one tract of an exegesis of Sura Al Muminun 23: 5-6 which clearly maintains the formation of sexual relations with a slave woman by his male master. It is to be noted that the same allowance is not given to the female masters of a bondman. Maududi explicates this rationale along with exposing the double standards of the so called modern exegetes of Holy Quran in his “Tafheem ul Quran” in these words;





"Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: (a) wives, (b) women who are legally in ode's possession, i.e. slave-girls. Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relations with one's slave-girl as with one's wife. The basis being possession and not marriage. If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately. Some modern commentators, who dispute the permissibility of having sexual relations with the slave-girl, argue from An-Nisa' (IV) : 25 to prove that one can have sexual relations with a slave-girl only after entering wedlock with her, because that verse enjoins that if a person cannot afford to marry a free Muslim woman, he may marry a Muslim slave-girl. But these commentators have a strange characteristic: they accept a part of a verse if it suits them, but conveniently ignore another part of the same verse if it goes against their wish and whim. The law about marrying the slave-girls as enunciated in Nisa: 25 reads: "....you may marry them with the permission of their guardians and give them their fair dowries." Obviously the person under reference here is not the master of the slave girl himself but the person who cannot afford to marry a free Muslim woman, and therefore, wants to marry a slave-girl, who is in the possession of another person. For if the question had been of marrying one's own slave-girl, who would then be the "guardian" whose permission would have to be sought? Then, the interpretation they give of this verse contradicts other verses dealing with the same subject in the Qur'an. A sincere person who wants to understand the Qur'anic law in this regard should study An-Nisa' (IV); 3, 25; AI-Ahzab (XXXIII): S0, 52, and Al-Ma`arij (LXX): 30 together with this verse of Al-Mu'minun".




Sura Nisa: Ayaats 3 & 25




"If you fear that you might not treat the orphans justly, then marry the women that seem good to you: two, or three, or four. *4 If you fear that you will not be able to treat them justly, then marry (only) one, *5 or marry from among those whom your right hands possess. *6 This will make it more likely that you will avoid injustice".




*4 Commentators have explained this in the following ways:


(i) There is the view of 'A'ishah RA who says that men tended to marry orphan girls who were under their guardianship out of consideration for either their property, beauty or because they thought they would be able to treat them according to their whims, as they had no one to protect them. After marriage such men sometimes committed excesses against these girls. It is in this context that the Muslims are told that if they fear they will not be able to do justice to the orphan girls, then they should marry other girls whom they like.

(ii) The second view is that of Ibn 'Abbas and his disciple 'Ikrimah who expressed the opinion that in the Jahiliyah period there was no limit on the number of wives a man could take. The result was that a man sometimes married as many as ten women and, when expenses increased because of a large family, he encroached on the rights either of his orphan nephews or other relatives. It was in this context that God fixed the limit of four wives and instructed the Muslims that they may marry up to four wives providing they possessed the capacity to treat them equitably.

(iii) Sa'id b. Jubayr, Qatadah and some other commentators say that while the Arabs of the Jahiliyah period did not approve of subjecting orphans to wrong, they had no concept of justice and equity with regard to women. They married as many women as they wanted and then subjected them to injustice and oppression. It is in this context that people are told that if they fear perpetrating wrongs on orphans they ought to be equally worried about perpetrating them on women. In the first place they should never marry more than four, and of those four, they should marry only as many as they can treat fairly.

Each of the three interpretations is plausible and all three may possibly be correct. Moreover, the verse could also mean that if a person does not find himself able to treat orphans in a fair manner, then he might as well marry the women who are looking after those orphans.

*5. Muslim jurists are agreed that according to this verse the maximum number of wives has been fixed at four. This conclusion is also supported by traditions. It is reported that when Ghaylan, the chief of Ta'if, embraced Islam he had nine wives. The Prophet (peace be on him) ordered him to keep only four wives and divorce the rest. Another person, Nawfal b. Mu'awiyah, had five wives. The Prophet (peace be on him) ordered him to divorce one of them. (For the relevant traditions see the comments of Ibn Kathir and Qurtubi on this verse in their exegesis)

This verse stipulates that marrying more wives than one is permissible on the condition that one treats his wives equitably. A person who avails himself of this permission granted by God to have a plurality of wives, and disregards the condition laid down by God to treat them equitably has not acted in good faith with God. In case there are complaints from wives that they are not being treated equitably, the Islamic state has the right to intervene and redress such grievances.

Some people who have been overwhelmed and overawed by the Christianized outlook of Westerners have tried to prove that the real aim of the Qur'an was to put an end to polygamy (which, in their opinion, is intrinsically evil). Since it was widely practiced at that time, however, Islam confined itself to placing restrictions on it. Such arguments only show the mental slavery to which these people have succumbed. That polygamy is an evil per se is an unacceptable proposition, for under certain conditions it becomes a moral and social necessity. If polygamy is totally prohibited men who cannot remain satisfied with only one wife will look outside the bounds of matrimonial life and create sexual anarchy and corruption. This is likely to cause much greater harm than polygamy to the moral and social order. For this reason the Qur'an has allowed those who feel the need for it to resort to polygamy. Those who consider it an evil in itself may certainly denounce it in disregard of the Qur'an and may even argue for its abolition. But they have no right to attribute such a view to the Qur'an, for it has expressed its permission of polygamy in quite categorical terms. Indeed, there is not the slightest hint in the Qur'an that could justify the conclusion that it advocates abolition of polygamy. This expression denotes 'slave-girls', i.e. female captives of war who are distributed by the state among individuals. The purpose of this verse is to tell men that if their financial circumstances do not permit them to support a free woman as their wife then they may marry a slave-girl; if they consider it necessary to have more than one wife and it would be difficult for them to treat their free wives equitably they may resort to slave-girls, for here the burden of obligations is lighter by comparison.


"And those of you who cannot afford to marry free, believing women (Muhsanat), then marry such believing women whom your right hands possess. Allah knows all about your faith. All of you belong to one another. *45 Marry them, then, with the leave of their guardians, and give them their bridal-due in a fair manner that they may live in the protection of wedlock rather than be either mere objects of unfettered lust or given to secret love affairs. Then if they become guilty of immoral conduct after they have entered into wedlock, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free women (Muhsanat) are liable. *46 This relaxation is for those of you who fear to fall into sin by remaining unmarried. *47 But if you persevere, it is better for you. Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate".




*45. The difference between the statuses of people is relative. All Muslims are alike. If there is any true distinction its basis is a person's faith and faith is not an exclusive privilege of the rich or so-called upper classes of the society. So it is possible for a slave-girl to be superior, in respect of her faith and morals, to a woman belonging to the elite of a society.

*46.A superficial reading of this verse can lead to the mistaken conclusion, as Khawarij and others have done, that stoning is not the prescribed punishment for adultery. Such people ask: If stoning is the prescribed punishment for extra-marital sexual intercourse, then how is it possible to halve that punishment with regard to slave-girls? Such people have not noted carefully the wording of this verse. In this section (see verses 24-5) the term Muhsanat (protected women) is used in two different meanings. First, it is used in the sense of 'married women', that is, those who enjoy the protection of their husbands. Second, it is used in the sense of 'women belonging to families', i.e. those who enjoy the protection of families even though they may not be married. In the verse under discussion, the word Muhsanat is used in the latter sense, i.e. in the sense of women who enjoy the protection of families as opposed to slave-girls. At the same time, the word is also used in the first meaning, when slave-girls have acquired the protection accorded by the contract of marriage (fa idha uhsinna), they will be liable to the punishment laid down in this verse if they have unlawful Sexual intercourse.


It is therefore apparent that a free woman enjoys two kinds of protection. One is the protection of her family through which she remains protected even when she is not married. The second is the protection of her husband, which reinforces the protection of the family that she already enjoys. As long as the slave-girl remains a slave, she does not enjoy the protection of the family. However, when she is married she has the protection of her husband - and of her husband alone. This protection is partial. Even after marriage she is neither liberated from the bond of her master nor does she attain the status enjoyed by free women. The punishment prescribed for a married slave-girl is accordingly half the punishment of an unmarried free woman rather than half that of a married free woman.

This also explains that the punishment for unlawful sexual intercourse (zina) laid down in Surah al-Nur 24: 2 refers to the offence committed by unmarried free women alone, and it is in comparison with their punishment that the punishment of married slave women has been laid down as half. As for free married women, they deserve more severe punishment than the unmarried free women (Muhsanat) for they violate the double protection. Even though the Qur'an does not specifically mention punishment by stoning it does allude to it in a subtle manner.

*47. That is, if a man cannot afford to marry a free woman then he should marry a slave-girl with the permission of her master.



Sura Al Azhaab: Ayaats 50 & 52


"O Prophet SAW, We have made lawful for you your wives whose bridal dues you have paid, *87 and the slave-girls you possess from among the prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and maternal aunts who have migrated with you, and a believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet and whom he wants to take in marriage. *88 (O Prophet), this privilege is yours alone to the exclusion of other believers. *89 We know well what restrictions We have imposed upon them as regards their wives and those whom their right hands possess, (and have exempted you from those restrictions) that there may be no constraint upon you. *90 Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful".





*87 This, in fact, is an answer to the objection of the people who said that Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace) forbade others to keep more than four wives at a time but had himself taken a fifth wife. This objection was raised because at the time the Holy Prophet married Hadrat Zainab, he already had four wives with him: 11) Hadrat Saudah whom he had married in the 3rd year before the Hijrah, (2) Hadrat 'A'ishah whom he married in the 3rd year before the Hijrah but who came to live with him in Shawwal, A.H. I, (3) Hadrat Hafsah whom he married in Sha'ban, A.H. 3, and (4) Hadrat Umm Salamah whom he married in Shawwal. A.H. 4. Thus, Hadrat Zainab was his fifth wife. Here Allah has answered the objection of the disbelievers and the hypocrites, as if to say, O Prophet, We have made lawful for you aII these five wives whom you have married by giving them their dowers." In other words, the answer means this: "It is We Who have imposed the restriction of four wives on others, and it is also We Ourselves Who have made Our Prophet an exception to the restriction. When We could impose the restriction, We could also make the exception."

About this answer also one should note that it was not meant to satisfy the disbelievers and the hypocrites but those Muslims to whom the opponents of Islam were trying to impart evil suggestions. Since they believed that the Qur'an is Allah's speech and has been sent down in Allah's own words, Allah declared through a clear and decisive verse that the Prophet had not made himself an exception from the general law about four wives of his own accord, but the exception in regard to him had been decreed by Allah.
*88 Besides making the fifth wife lawful for the Prophet, Allah in this verse also granted him the permission to marry a few other kinds of the women:

(1) The woman who came into his possession from among the slave-girls granted by Allah. According to this the Holy Prophet selected for himself Hadrat Raihanah from among the prisoners of war taken at the raid against the Bani Quraizah, Hadrat Juwairiyah from among the prisoners of war taken at the raid against the Bani al-Mustaliq, Hadrat Safiyyah out of the prisoners of war captured at Khaiber, and Hadrat Mariah the Copt, who was presented by Maqauqis of Egypt. Out of these he set three of them free and married them, but had conjugal relations with Mariah on the ground of her being his slave-girl. In her case there is no proof that the Holy Prophet set her free and married her.

(2) The ladies from among his first cousins, who emigrated along with him. The words "who emigrated with you” do not mean that they accompanied the Holy Prophet in his migration journey but this that they also had migrated in the way of Allah for the sake of Islam. The Holy Prophet was given the choice to marry any one of them he liked. Accordingly, in A.H. 7 he married Hadrat Umm Habibah. (Incidentally, in this verse it has been elucidated that the daughters of one's paternal and maternal uncles and aunts are lawful for a Muslim. In this regard the Islamic Law is different both from the Christian Law and from the Jewish Law. Among the Christians one cannot marry a woman whose line of descent joins one's own anywhere in the last seven generations, and among the Jews it is permissible even to marry one's real niece, i.e. daughter of one's brother or sister).

(3) The believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet, i.e. who is prepared to give herself in marriage to the Prophet without a dower, and he may like to marry her. On account of this permission the Holy Prophet took Hadrat Maimunah as his wife in Shawwal, A.H. 7, but he did not think he should have conjugal relations with her without paying her the dower. Therefore, he paid her the dower even though she did not demand or desire it. Some commentators say that the Holy Prophet did not have any wife who had offend herself to him; but this in fact means that he did not keep any wife without paying her the dower although she offered herself to him.

*89 If this sentence is taken to be related with the preceding sentence, it will mean that it is not permissible for any Muslim to take in marriage a woman who gives herself to him, without paying her the dower; and if it is taken to be related with the whole preceding passage, it will imply that the concession to marry more than four wives is only reserved for the Holy Prophet, not for the other Muslims. This verse also shows that certain commandments are specifically meant for the Holy Prophet to follow and are not applicable to the other Muslims. A study of the Qur'an and Sunnah reveals several such commandments. For example, the Tahajjud prayer was obligatory for the Holy Prophet but is voluntary for the Ummah. It is unlawful for him and his family to receive charities though it is not so for others. The inheritance left by him cannot be divided; as for the inheritance left by others relevant commandments have been given in Surah An-Nisa'. Keeping of more than four wives was made lawful for him though he was not enjoined to do equal treatment with them. He was permitted to marry a woman who gave herself to him without any dower, and after his death his wives when forbidden for the Ummah. None of these privileges could be enjoyed by any other Muslim. Another special thing that the commentators have mentioned in this regard is that it was forbidden for the Holy Prophet to marry a woman from among the people of the Book though it is lawful for the Muslims to do so.

*90 This is the reason why Allah made the Holy Prophet an exception to the general rule. "So that there may be no restraint on you" does not mean that he was, God forbid, a very lustful person, and therefore, he was permitted to marry several wives so that he might not feel any hindrance due to the restriction to four wives. This meaning will be understood only by the person who, blinded by prejudice, forgets that the Holy Prophet at the age of 25 married a lady who was 40 years old, and lived a happy, contented married life with her for full 25 years. Then, when she died, he marred another old lady Hadrat Saudah, who remained his only wife for the next four years. Now, no sensible and honest person can imagine that when he became over fifty-three he was suddenly filled with lust and needed to have more and more wives. In fact, in order to understand the meaning of "no restraint", one should, on the one hand, keep in view the great task whose responsibility AIlah had placed on the Holy Prophet, and on the other, understand the conditions and circumstances under which he had been appointed to accomplish the great task. Anyone who understands these two things with an unbiased mind, will certainly realize why it was necessary to grant him freedom in respect of the wives and what 'hindrance" was there for him in the restriction to tour wives. The task entrusted to the Holy Prophet was that he should mould and chisel by all-round education and training an uncouth, uncultured nation which was not uncivilized only from the Islamic point of view but from a general viewpoint as well, into a highly civilized, refined and virtuous nation. For this purpose it was unbiased mind, will certainly realize why it was necessary to grant him freedom in respect of the wives and what "hindrance" was there for him in the restriction to four wives.

The task entrusted to the Holy Prophet was that he should mould and chisel by all-round education and training an uncouth, uncultured nation which was not uncivilized only from the Islamic point of view but from a general viewpoint as well, into a highly civilized, refined and virtuous nation. For this purpose it was not enough only to train men but the training of the women also was equally necessary. However, the principles of social life and civilization which he had been appointed to teach forbade free mixing of the sexes together, and it was not possible for him to impart direct training to the womenfolk himself without violating this rule. Therefore, for imparting education to the women the only alternative left for him was that he should marry several women of different ages and mental capabilities and should prepare them by education and training to become his helpers, and then employ them to give religious instructions to the young, middle-aged and old women of the city and desert and teach them the new principles of morality and civilization.

Moreover, the Holy Prophet had also been appointed to abolish the system of life of the pre-Islamic days of ignorance and replace it with the Islamic system of life practically. For the accomplishment of this task a conflict was inevitable with those who upheld the system of ignorance, and this conflict was being encountered in a country where the tribal system of life was prevalent with all its peculiar customs and traditions. Under these conditions, besides other devices, it was also necessary that the Holy Prophet should marry in different families and clans in order to cement many ties of friendship and put an end to enmities. Thus, the selection of the ladies whom he marred was to some extent determined by this object besides their personal qualities. By taking Hadrat 'A'ishah and Hadrat Hafsah to wife he further strengthened and deepened the relations with Hadrat Abu Bakr and Hadrat 'Umar. Hadrat Umm Salamah was the daughter of the family to which Abu Jahl and Khalid bin Walid belonged, and Umm Habibah was the daughter of Abu Sufyan. These marriages neutralized the enmity of these families to a large extent; so much so that after Umm Habibah's marriage Abu Sufyan never confronted the Holy Prophet on the battefield. Hadrat Safiyyah, Hadrat Juwairiah and Raihanah belonged to Jewish families. When the Holy Prophet married them, after setting them free, the hostile Jewish activities against him subsided. For according to the Arab traditions when the daughter of a clan or tribe was married to a person, he was regarded as the son-in-law of not only the girl's family but of the entire tribe, and it was disgraceful to fight the son-in-law.

Practical reformation of the society and abolition of its customs of ignorance was also included among the duties of his office. Therefore, he had to undertake one marriage for this purpose also, as has been related in detail in this surah Ahzab itself.
For these reasons it was essential that there should be no restriction for the Prophet in respect of marriage so that in view of the requirements of the great mission entrusted to him he could marry as many women as he wanted.

This also brings out the error of the view of those people who think that polygamy is permissible only under special personal requirements and apart from these there can be no other object for which it may be permissible. Evidently, the reason for the Holy Prophet to marry more wives than one was not that the wife was sick, or barren, or that he had no male child. Or that there was the question of the bringing up of some orphans. Without these restrictions he married all his wives either in view of the educational requirements, or for the reformation of society, or for political and social objectives. The question is, when Allah Himself has not kept polygamy restricted to a few particular needs, which arc being mentioned these days and the Messenger of Allah took several wives for many purposes other than these, how is another person entitled to propose some restrictions in the law and then claim that he is imposing these in accordance with the Shari'ah? As a matter of fact, the root cause for the imposition of these restrictions is the Western concept that polygamy is an evil in itself. That very concept has given rise to the idea that this unlawful thing can become lawful only in case of extreme circumstances. Now, however hard one may try to label this imported concept with Islam artificially. it is entirely alien to the Qur'an and ,Sunnah and the whole Muslim literature.



"Thereafter women will not be lawful for you, and it will not be lawful for you to take other wives in place of them, even though their beauty might please you, *93unless they be those whom your right hand owns. *94 Allah is watchful over everything"




*93 This has two meanings: (1) `No other woman except those made lawful to you in verse 50 above, is any more lawful to you"; and (2) 'when your wives have become pleased and ready to stay with you through every kind of hardship and have rejected the world in preference to the Hereafter, and are satisfied that you may treat them as you please, it is no longer lawful for you that you should divorce any of them and take another wife instead."

*94 This verse explains why one is permitted to have conjugal relations with one's slave-girls besides the wedded wives, and there is no restriction on their number. The same thing has also been stated in Surah An-Nisa': 3, AI-Mu'minun: b, and AI-Ma'arij: 30. In all these verses the slave-girls have been mentioned as a separate class from the wedded wives, and conjugal relations with them have been permitted. Moreover, verse 3 of Surah An-Nisa' lays down the number of the wives as four, but neither has Allah fixed the number of the slave-girls, in that verse nor made any allusion to their number in the other relevant verses. Here, of course, the Holy Prophet is being addressed and told: "It is no more lawful for you to take other women in marriage, or divorce any of the present wives and take another wife in her stead; slave-girls, however, are lawful." This shows that no restriction has been imposed in respect of the slave girls.

This, however, does not mean that the Divine Law has provided the rich an opportunity to purchase as many slave-girls as they tike for their carnal indulgence. This is in fact how the self-seeking people have exploited and abused tire Law. The Law had been made for the convenience of the people; it had not been made to be abused. One could, for instance, similarly abuse the Law concerning marriage. The Shari'ah permits a man to marry up to four wives and also gives him the right to divorce his wife and take another one. This law had been made in view of man's requirements and needs. Now, if a person, merely for the sake of sensual enjoyment, were to adopt the practice of keeping four wives for a time and then divorcing them to be replaced by another company of them, it would be abusing the provisions of the law, for which the person himself would be responsible and not the Shari`ah. Likewise the Shari'ah has allowed that the women who are captured in war and whose people do not exchange them for Muslim prisoners of war nor ransom them, may be kept as slave-girls, and gave the persons to whom they are assigned by the government the right to have conjugal relations with them so that they do not become a moral hazard for the society. Then, as it was not possible to determine the number of the prisoners of war, legally also it could nor be determined how many slave girls a person could keep at a time. The sale of the slaves and slave-girls was also allowed for the reason that if a slave or a slave-girl could not pull on well with a master, he or she could be transferred to another person so that the same person's permanent ownership did not become a cause of unending torture for both the master and the captive. The Shari`ah made all these laws keeping in view human conditions and requirements for the convenience of men. If these have been made a means of sexual enjoyment and luxury by the rich, it is they who are to blame for this and not the Shari'ah.



Sura Al Maarij: Ayyat 29 - 30


"And those who guard their private parts".



"Except in regard to their spouses and those whom their right hands possess, for in regard to them they are not reproachable".





P.S: I hope by viewing all of these relevant Ayaats of Holy Quran which deals with the subject of slave-women and the permissibility of having sexual relations with their male masters one should redress his/her any doubts related to this subject matter. But I also know this fact very well that the arrogance and excessive pride on one’s own personal (Unsubstantiated) views can drive any person away from the facts of a particular subject matter and in this process make a mockery out of his fickle and shallow arguments.





 
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babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
@ Bret Hawk,
I floated a very simple question:

The arabic word فَانكِحُواْ is governing both categories of ladies one who are النِّسَاءِ and
those who are أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ .Now bring your bruhaan (Clear Warrant with) which you can deny me that if the arabic word Nikaah is
not governing both categories of ladies.

It was straightforward and simple question, supported by Quran. You this time bitterly disappointed by resorting to copy n paste without any substnace and relevance. I am afraid that you are not understanding what the topic is. Although from your post I may draw more topics and all the building of even projecting the "blank permission to four marriages for everyone" will crumble, but that is not the topic here. You can take the assistance of your all preferred Ulema and let me know if in the above verse the arabic word "Fankahoo (Marry)" is restricted to both categories of women or not. Either then I will provide you another Quranic verse containing the same words (Ma malakat) in which the "One word" is governing the host of people. Take your time and be concise, to the point and relevant.
 

mehwish_ali

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
In twentyfour hours time, you could not get any thing from Quran, except that you repeated again the same verse. If you "do now know", then at lease answer yes or No to my questions, A & B. I think there may be Hadiths which say that even if Loondis does not wish to have "relation", the owner has the
right to get the "pleasure". Now be straightforward and not resort to that strategy that when "confronted with Quran, label the person "Quran-Only". Foqia Khan post is informative perhaps that may help you to form your answers.

وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ

3. And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who
seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to
so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is
more likely that ye will not do injustice.
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women
of your choice two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal
justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That
will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice

Now pay Attention: The arabic word فَانكِحُواْ is governing both categories of ladies one who are النِّسَاءِ and
those who are أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ .Now bring your bruhaan which you and deny me that if the arabic word Nikaah is
not governing both categories of ladies. Otherwise you may bring from Quran a clear verse as I am bringing that
says that without Nikkah you can have loondis.(Ma Malkat). Please take the assistance of your Ulemas and ask
them only one question if this word Nikah covers both categories or if they have any other clear verse from Quran.

How often have I told you clearly that coming into the Ownership of a Master means Nikah for captive women. The masters don't have to pay any extra Haq Mehr, or slave woman does not have any choice to reject her Masters proposal.

You are only playing with Quran Verses. The Verse you quoted above, there Nikah could be for both or it could also be only for Wives, and it is not in 100% Hard and Fast Rule that every time it applies to both.

Here is another Quranic Verse you neglected completely (I don't think without Hadith you will get the guidance, but still others should get the lesson too).




يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ اللَّاتِي آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ

Quran 33:50 "O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war."

It is very clear from this verse that:

1. Nikah with wife is completed after the HAQ MEHR (dowries).

2. While Nikah with slave woman is their coming into ownership of Master and no DOWRY is required.

3. And these women who have been captured as Captives, they are the slave women (once again a fact that many of Rejectors of Hadith deny).


What a shame you will keep on playing with Quranic Verses and keep on denying the Tafsir of Rasool Allah (saw).
 

abduttawwab

MPA (400+ posts)
In twentyfour hours time, you could not get any thing from Quran, except that you repeated again the same verse.
What do you think I sit 24 hrs a day in front of computer screen reading these posts and thinking over the answers of your ques:? no brother I've other useful things to do in my life alhamdulillah :) anyways
If you answer my previous ques:, definitely I'll not repeat the same thing again insha-Allah. So take 48 hours instead of 24 and try to answer my last question (i.e. why Allah has specified wives and slave women separately in verse? 'وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ')

Now bring your bruhaan which you and deny me that if the arabic word Nikaah is not governing both categories of ladies. Otherwise you may bring from Quran a clear verse as I am bringing that says that without Nikkah you can have loondis.(Ma Malkat).
Regarding your ques: on the word 'فَانكِحُواْ', can you please tell what prerequisites do you have in your mind, for a person who can answer such questions after reading directly this verse? What does he need to know prior to answer this question? I am talking about his knowledge and expertise level in Arabic.
Thanks
 

mehwish_ali

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
The Perfect Example of Misguidance of Hadith Rejectors

Please note how Mr. Patriot taking only one Verse of Quran, while deny to take any lesson from Hadith.

یہ اس تفسیر بالرائے کا فتنہ ہے جو انہوں نے قرآن کی آیت کا اپنی خواہشات کے مطابق استعمال کرتے ہوئے انکار کر دیا کہ جنگ میں قید ہونے والی خواتین کو غلام باندیاں بنا لیا جاتا تھا۔

پہلے انکی منطق پڑھتے ہیں، اور پھر اسکا جواب آگے پیش کروں گی​
۔

When we talk about The Deen Al-Islam for me Quran has first priority, Quran is Furqan, the book of Allah. If Quran says that prisoners must not be slaves, we must not make them slaves. No if and buts.
What anyone else says, for me it has no meaning.
No matter whether it is "Imam" Tabri or any other "Imam". If they say something which is against Quran, ie. against Allah, then it is unacceptable to me.
Now you can call me munkar- e- Hadith or kafir, I do not care.

Here's what Allah T'ala says about POWs:

4.gif


47:4 If you meet the disbelievers in battle, strike at their command
centers, until you have subdued them, then, bind them firmly. And
thereafter, there must be an act of kindness or ransom when the battle
lays down its weapons. If God willed, He could punish them Himself, but
that He may let you test one by means of another (as to which peoples
remains vigilant.) As for those who are slain in the way of God, He does

not render their actions vain.

[8:37, 38:40. Free the captives as an act of kindness or ransom, such as
in exchange for your men in their captivity. There is no third option.


Fadharb ar-riqaab
is usually rendered as smite their necks. A little


contemplation, however, makes it plain that in a battle of swords and
arrows no commander would order his soldiers to aim for the necks
alone. Therefore, the stated term has been used idiomatically, indicating
knocking out the command centers. It is interesting to note that even in
todays encounters with high technology this principle is given a top

priority]

Salaam.​



يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ اللَّاتِي آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ

Quran 33:50 "O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war."

Now if we have to follow Mr. Patriot logic then we will directly Contradict not only Hadith of Rasool, but also this clear Verse of Quran. Hopefully people are able to see this Fitna of Rejection of Hadith. Amin.
 

Bret Hawk

Senator (1k+ posts)
@ Babadeena

First of all I have to reiterate my admission which I also explicitly mentioned in my above post that it was related to the works of Maududi from his magnum opus “Tafheem ul Quran” therefore your objection of blaming (implicitly) me in this regard is a senseless approach . Secondly the explication of those Ayaats which you have (Once again) brushed aside by maintaining as a copy paste is nothing but a disrespect for that scholar whose combined years of research on such issues surpasses your own age at least twice so have some respect for the master. And lastly lets now cut the chase and get on with your “simple” question and lets see how you could not glean through the answer from my post, which I posted exactly for the same purpose, but again as per your quintessential mental disposition you rather chose to ignore that in totality and hence again we are back to square one.


  • Simple answer is that yes it allows the master to marry his bond woman in this 3rd verse of Sura Al Nisa no doubt about that. Now can you confirm this simple point that is it mandatory to marry them or is an option? Remember if the Nass of Holy Quran strictly restricts the Male master to marry every slave woman , which he possess in explicit and unambiguous terms then I have no problem to buy this feigned supposition of yours.
  • I think you should understand the basic rules of the propositions “You can do this” and “You have to do this” isn’t it? Is in this verse Faa Ankiho Maa Taaba Lakum Allah SWT is firmly placing the need of such masters to marry their slaves or providing them the option? I hope now you will not ask this novice question of essentials and options?
  • You asked about the Buhaan from me about the permissibility of forming sexual relations with the slave girls without resorting to marriage, which however I’ve provided in the Ayaats of Sura Al Mauminun where wives and slave girls were separated by these words “ Azwajihim Auo Ma Malakat” and the explanation I’ve provided through the exegeses of Maulana Maududi in the very first paragraph of my post, which was also highlighted in red font colour. Now would you mind to bring your Burhan from your so called Modernists and Parvezi deviator masters from Holy Quran, where it explicitly forbids the Masters to not form sexual relations with their slave girls apart from tacit approval of Nisa’s 3rd Ayaa which just gives them a commendable option not the stricture which you have in your mind?
  • Finally now if you fail to bring any Ayaa of stricture of Masters to marry their bond-women then the option of last resort is to bring any single Ayaa which can abrogate and make redundant the Nass of Surah Mauminun? Now you have two challenges from me let’s see what sort of proofs you can bring forth and kindly allow your spiritual master Ghamdi or of his ilk to help you in this regard. I’m waiting for your response anxiously.
 
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babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
@Mewish Ali,

Whole thread of three pages is there. Yours never have been the position, which has been stated in your post quoted above. In fact you have taken a U turn after my quoting the verse and proving that One is obliged to make Nikah with Slave Girl. All along in the thread I have been asking that anyone should prove what so-called Ulemas said in the video. You may wish to point out your any post wherein you had before admitted that "Nikah" is must before having relations with Loondi. Anyhow better late than never. At last you accepted what was mine position, although your position is still a lukewarm type thing.
I entirely agree with the following:

a) Nikah with an indpendent lady (Muhsinah) involve many rituals, agreements, bargaining and provision for future, payment of Haq Mehr etc.

b) With a slave girls, these things are although not possible but a ceremonial Nikah is necessary.

Now you should convince your favourite Ulemas who are, in video, saying altogether contrary to Quran. The Irony is that they even did not mention the Nikah.

You are a lady and I respect a lot to any lady irrespective of her belief/religion but making accusation like "Haidth rejecter" is the characteristics of those who (ok I will write this for someone else).

The Anchor manipulated the opening question, intentionally or unintentionally. The question should have been "what is the position of Islam with reference to Quran, about Slavery", instead it was "Is it jaiz to keep loondi" as if this is a commodity and one can have it as per his/her ease and choice. Foqia Khan has rightly pointed out this thing.

Since now you have accepted my position of "Nikah" before entering into any relations with a slave girl, Nothing more can be said further. Therefore what I said about these so-called Ulema stands vindicated. As I said "better late than never, u r on track".
 

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
@Abduttawab,,,,

(i.e. why Allah has specified wives and slave women separately in verse? 'وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ
')

Because they are two different categories of ladies. You have to take into account the difference of marriage between an independent lady and slave girl. The Slave lady always till her death carries this mark and even the off-springs from her are labelled as the "children of Kami woman", it is still ripe in Pakistani society specially in Punjab.

Regarding your ques: on the word 'فَانكِحُواْ', can you please tell what prerequisites do you have in your mind, for a person who can answer such questions after reading directly this verse? What does he need to know prior to answer this question? I am talking about his knowledge and expertise level in Arabic.Thanks
I do not expect any prerequisites from a person who is answering any question. If you have anything of informative nature supported by book, come forward or just wait n see and read the posts of others. Thanks.
 

babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
@Bret Hawk,
First of all I have to reiterate my admission which I also explicitly mentioned in my above post that it was related to the works of Maududi from his magnum opus “Tafheem ul Quran” therefore your objection of blaming (implicitly) me in this regard is a senseless approach . Secondly the explication of those Ayaats which you have (Once again) brushed aside by maintaining as a copy paste is nothing but a disrespect for that scholar whose combined years of research on such issues surpasses your own age at least twice so have some respect for the master. And lastly lets now cut the chase and get on with your “simple” question and lets see how you could not glean through the answer from my post, which I posted exactly for the same purpose, but again as per your quintessential mental disposition you rather chose to ignore that in totality and hence again we are back to square one.
I said that you resorted to copy n paste without any relevance. In no way, I meant to underestimate the work of Maulana Maudadi. I may differ with his explanation and that is my right but in no way i am showing any underestimation to that personality. The pity is that you just copy n paste the things which were not relevant to the topic.
  • Simple answer is that yes it allows the master to marry his bond woman in this 3rd verse of Sura Al Nisa no doubt about that. Now can you confirm this simple point that is it mandatory to marry them or is an option? Remember if the Nass of Holy Quran strictly restricts the Male master to marry every slave woman , which he possess in explicit and unambiguous terms then I have no problem to buy this feigned supposition of yours.

  • I think you unde4rstand the basic rules of the propositions “You can do this” and “You have to do this” isn’t it? Is in this verse Faa Ankiho Maa Taaba Lakum Allah SWT is firmly placing the need of such masters to marry their slaves or providing them the option? I hope now you will not ask this novice question of essentials and options?
Again you are failing and failing bitterly. The question being discussed is that "Is it permissible to have 'relations" with Slave Girls without Nikah". I give this verse that if that had been the case, then what was the need to put the words "fankahoo", which implies that One must have to make Nikah before entering into 'relations" with even a slave girl who is totally dependent upon the Master. It is not question of "Option" or "Must", it is guiding principle.

You ask about the Buhaan from me the permissibility of marrying the slave girls without resorting to marriage, which however I’ve provided in the Ayaats of SUra Al Mauminun where wives and slave girls were separated by these words “ Azwajihim Auo Ma Malakat” and the explanation I’ve provided through the exegeses of Maulana Maududi in the very first paragraph of my post, which was also highlighted in red font colour. Now would you mind to bring your Burhan from your so called Modernists and Parvezi deviator masters from Holy Quran where it explicitly forbids the Masters to not form sexual relations with their slave girls apart from tacit approval of Nisa’s 3rd Ayaat which just gives them a commendable option not the stricture which you have in your mind?
Try to make difference between marrying a free woman(Musaynaat) and a slave girls. There is day and night difference. Look around near your constituency there may be a burning example. (anyhow)???? You are again engulfed between Option and Command. I really do not know which frequency you are travelling? It is a guiding principle. Then care to explain "OPTION" for what???? You seem to be also a minion of those Ulema who are of the view that "a master can have the privilege of having sexual relations with slave girls without Nikah". and that is not the case.

وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ..... (24:33)

اور تم اپنی باندیوں کو دنیوی زندگی کا فائدہ حاصل کرنے کے لئے بدکاری پر مجبور نہ کرو جبکہ وہ پاک دامن (یا حفاطتِ نکاح میں) رہنا چاہتی ہیں، اور جو شخص انہیں مجبور کرے گا تو اللہ ان کے مجبور ہو جانے کے بعد (بھی) بڑا بخشنے والا مہربان ہے

Enjoy reading it.

Now your accusations of me being "Pervaizi" or my master "Ghamdi". Those people resort to such tactics who are literally coward and their knowledge is nothing but copy n paste, and least but not last only follow conjecture, go on hearsay, and are driven by others. Peace.
 

mehwish_ali

Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
@Mewish Ali,

Whole thread of three pages is there. Yours never have been the position, which has been stated in your post quoted above. In fact you have taken a U turn after my quoting the verse and proving that One is obliged to make Nikah with Slave Girl. All along in the thread I have been asking that anyone should prove what so-called Ulemas said in the video. You may wish to point out your any post wherein you had before admitted that "Nikah" is must before having relations with Loondi. Anyhow better late than never. At last you accepted what was mine position, although your position is still a lukewarm type thing.
I entirely agree with the following:

a) Nikah with an indpendent lady (Muhsinah) involve many rituals, agreements, bargaining and provision for future, payment of Haq Mehr etc.

b) With a slave girls, these things are although not possible but a ceremonial Nikah is necessary.


Please don't blame me wrongfully that I have changed any of my opinion. You have misunderstood perhaps. No where have I said that there is any NIKAH or Ceremonial Nikah needed in case of Owner and Kaneen Londi.

1. Nikah is needed with a free man is marrying a free woman.

2. Nikah is needed with a free man is marrying a slave woman of 3rd Person.

3. But no Nikah (or even ceremonial Nikah) is needed between Owner and his own slave woman.

Nikah is a type of Pact between 2 Parties and most Important condition of Nikah is the AGREEMENT between 2 parties.

But in case of Owner and his slave woman, there is no such thing like Agreement of both Parties. No, but Master has full right upon the his slave woman. Do you agree with it or not?
 

abduttawwab

MPA (400+ posts)
@Abduttawab,,,,
Because they are two different categories of ladies. You have to take into account the difference of marriage between an independent lady and slave girl. The Slave lady always till her death carries this mark and even the off-springs from her are labelled as the "children of Kami woman", it is still ripe in Pakistani society specially in Punjab.
I don't know from where you invent these theories and why do you deny the crystal clear things come from Quran, Sunnah and Ijmaa'.

وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ
"And those who guard their private parts, Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed"

It's very clear that the words 'أَزْوَاجِهِمْ' and 'مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ' are two different things by definition, otherwise there was no need to bring two words separately. If we assume what you've understood is correct, then it's similar to saying of a 'doctor' to his patient: 'You may eat sea-food OR fish'. Does it make sense?

Anyways وما علينا الا البلاغ
.
 
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babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
But in case of Owner and his slave woman, there is no such thing like Agreement of both Parties. No, but Master has full right upon the his slave woman. Do you agree with it or not?
@Mewish Ali,
I absolutely do not agree to this. Specially when Quranic verses have been quoted and pasted on the board. In surah Nisa verse and also Sura Noor verse are very clear on this. Now you have once again taken a U turn. Your position is ambiguous and bleak. You are just in-between the two positions. Just think that what was the need to put the word "Fankahoo" in the verse, when according to you and your so-called Ulema and plus like-minded people, Master has the right over slave girl without Nika, then what is logic of that word in that verse.
I have also given you a clear verse from Surah Noor that "Without the consent of Loondi, no one can compel her against her wishes".

Your so-called Ulemas and like minded people while mentioning of Loondis in this era is just nothing but a D-3 Technology where the viewer wishes to be falsely part of the film.
Your position, therefore is not in accordance with the Quranic commandaments.
 
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babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
I think folks are now silent. One more question, why "Malakat eemanakum" have been included in those category from whom Allah has given three time of privacy? Logically if the master can have them in their beds, then what kind of privacy still remains????

Unfortunately, the Muslims whole emphasis in Islam is on as much as women and also loondis and when they discuss these things, they feel like sitting in D-3 format of movies, as if they are part of that movie.
 

patriot

Minister (2k+ posts)
Our 'ulama' legalize rape of slaves in their version of Islam which is based on books written 200-300 years after Rasoolullah (S). Books written under the influence of kings who had Harams in their palaces.
"Dau number Islam".
 

Bret Hawk

Senator (1k+ posts)
@ Baba(bay)deena & Pratiot


You both are j**** that’s all I can sum up by reading your inflammatory, derogatory and deviant comments about the social issues of that epoch upon which you don’t have any worth of idea and sense at all. You talk about the legitimacy of the legal verdicts of Juriconsults (Mufti) of Islam, who has given you the damn right to question the established notions of this faith? What’s the bloody worth you both have on this subject matter as a whole? Just who do you both think you bloody charlatans are to comment on these complex religious cum legal issues with your half baked misreable and pathetic theories? Have you ever gained even an elementary and basic education level on Islamic sciences from any established seminaries of the world except of interpreting some words of the holy book according to your own whims and speculations? Talk about the disagreements only those who are well versed and well grounded in their specific fields have this authority to question on such issues. You both and the likes of you are no body to even point any fingers on such intricate matters. Even me who’s by the way a graduate of Islamic Studies from London University and had the privilege of studying under the tutelage of the then grand mufti of UK on the course of Islamic Jurisprudence even though still I have the humility to acknowledge the limitations of my knowledge on these legal injunctions of Islam and therefore I rarely pass on my personal verdicts. And look at your own pathetic and shameful behavior to question on almost every matter which has been decided centuries ago and by doing this sort of practice you’re doing nothing but to make a resounding mockery out of your own filthy selves. Surely the sort of humbleness and humility which is required from the learned personnel is miles away from your bigot and arrogant minds. I don’t give a Rat’s A** from now on what you both think and on which issues you have an agreement because for me you both are nothing but a perfect embodiment of S*** B***.


 
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babadeena

Minister (2k+ posts)
@Bret Hawk,

Your post is reflection of your utter despair and a proof of your defeat in the sense of your inability to prove the matter with evidence and logic. The difference is that you wish to stick with the olden explanations right or wrong whereas I am giving the supremacy to Quran. Be fair enough and rational to point out if I have not given the proof from Quran and discussed it with logic. Your contention is that what x,y,z had written is absolutely correct and cannot be questioned, whereas mine position is that pondering over Quran (which is also a command) opens the windows of knowledge and give you a unique opportunity to compare what had been written. In no way I mean that what had been written or explained by x,y,z, it should be under-estimated or that is all false but at the same time I do not think that what they had written is equal to Quran or they explained it with a clear Vahee from Allah. You should have a courage to point out that if I had not quoted Quran, I quoted its wrong translation or the views. If that notion is being proved from Quran, merely rejecting it-- on the pretext that it contradicts what x,y,z had written in the past --- is nothing but an ostrich policy of putting the peak into sand. You proved yourself a literal coward to went down of adopting derogatory remarks which are not the worth of a person who claimed to have been educated in UK. You wish and continue to dance at the tune of others and wish to be driven away, your choice, I shall keep mine of pondering at Quran and pointing out which goes contrary to its teaching. You like it or not but you must learn to live by it on this board. You may call me Pervaizi, Ghamdi, rejecter of whatsoever, but when things will be going against Quran, and they will come to mine eyes, they will be countered. Quran is mine passion and if it hurts someone or does not suit him, then he may hang himself with a rope, perhaps this strategy may vanish his rage and anger which he may feel.
 

patriot

Minister (2k+ posts)
I agree with you brother "babadeena",well said.
and
@Bret Hawk, Allah S.W.T. orders me to say:
25:63 The true servants of the Beneficent are those who walk upon the earth humbly, and when the ignorant ones address them, they say, "Peace!"
63.gif
 

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