Kia peeri mureedi achhi cheez hai?

ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
Make it easy then

Separate the instructions/ahadees related to human/social (all kind of) interaction, individual piety and region specific factors (like weather, terrain, etc.) influencing life into separate categories.

Why do you want to do this work in modern era after 1400 years (Why you are so eager to challenge the understanding of our Salaf after 14 centuries) and on what authority?

When did clergy try to enforce their interpretation through violent means???

How many examples would suffice?
Give me three examples then we will discuss the nature of these movements
Questions in red
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
It means that Islamic modernist thinkers like Sir Sayyid, Parvez etc are minimalist in their approach to religion. If they find something in religion which does not fit in the modern conditions they reject that part of the religion. This is their religious methodology. Muslim people are attached to religion through the power of belief and love(1). Religion is not something intellectual for them. They were attached to religious law through the institution of Taqleed. They were experiencing imposed societal and cultural changes and understood very easily that reform in religion is a movement inspired by the same power which is responsible for societal and cultural change. They rejected modernists interpretation of Din. The project of reform in religion in the Muslim world has failed completely(2)

1) Who has inculcated this special kind of 'belief and love' in them? Those very people towards whose impotency I have alluded to and you have also admitted to the barrenness of their thought?

2) Though I dont agree with this statement but is it (this failure) a good or bad thing??
 
ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
1) Who has inculcated this special kind of 'belief and love' in them? Those very people towards whose impotency I have alluded to and you have also admitted to the barrenness of their thought?

I talked about the barrenness of thought our so-called intellectuals. Common people are attached always to their religion and culture with the power of belief and love. The modern era is the era of the importance of masses (enlightenment). That is why opinion of masses about religion has become very important.

2) Though I dont agree with this statement but is it (this failure) a good or bad thing??
Khuda ka shukr hai keh nakaam hua
Submissions in red
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
Questions in red

Answer in the same order:

1) Within Islam I dont believe countering rigidity with even greater rigidity. The straitjacket Muslims have put themselves into is making it difficult for them to breathe and not letting any oxygen into to the vital cerebral organs. It may not have been like this but this jacket is quite old, at least 800 years.

2) From our own region and relatively recent times: a) Syed Ahmed shaheed, b) Imam Khomeini c) Talban

Similar examples from muslim world can be quoted from other regions and times.
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
I talked about the barrenness of thought our so-called intellectuals. Common people are attached always to their religion and culture with the power of belief and love. The modern era is the era of the importance of masses (enlightenment). That is why opinion of masses about religion has become very important.

I admire your deep love for and attachment to the mystic tradition and happy for u for following it. But you are also a rational person and man of reason. Unfortunately you are not making any sense here. You need to reflect and ponder over it
 
ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
I admire your deep love for and attachment to the mystic tradition and happy for u for following it. But you are also a rational person and man of reason. Unfortunately you are not making any sense here. You need to reflect and ponder over it
Thank you for your concern. My submission to you would be: you are rational person but you also have a heart and a civilization. Don't sacrifice your heart on the alter of rationalism and don't help in the destruction of the remaining foundations of your civilization only due to the fact that it has made powerless.
 
ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
What is the difference between a wahabi and an ahle-hadees?
Ahl e Hadith is an old Muslim tradition of Muhaddisin. Wahabi movement is a modern phenomenon pf 17th century which has some resemblances with the Muhaddiseen
 
ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
Answer in the same order:

1) Within Islam I dont believe countering rigidity with even greater rigidity. The straitjacket Muslims have put themselves into is making it difficult for them to breathe and not letting any oxygen into to the vital cerebral organs. It may not have been like this but this jacket is quite old, at least 800 years.

I am sorry these are not answers to my questions. I will be grateful if you answer those questions one by one and please answer them without the help of any rhetoric.

2) From our own region and relatively recent times: a) Syed Ahmed shaheed, b) Imam Khomeini c) Talban

Syed Ahmad Shaheed launched a movement against Sikh rule. It was not a movement for Shari'ah law. When he occupied a land in modern KPK he applied Shari'ah there like most of the Muslim kings in the past

Same is the case with Khumini. His movement was against the dictatorial regime of Shah. Liberals and communists were with Imam Khumini in dethroning Shah. When he assumed power, it is normal that he applied Shii fiqh according to the wishes of Shii majority in Iran with some modifications

Talban are not part of our clergy. Majority of Pakistani clergy have declared their activities unislamic. Moreover, Talban are a product of secular institutions of Pakistan and USA for their own interests. They are not a result of any religious interpretation


Similar examples from muslim world can be quoted from other regions and times.
Question and submissions in red
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
Thank you for your concern. My submission to you would be: you are rational person but you also have a heart and a civilization. Don't sacrifice your heart on the alter of rationalism and don't help in the destruction of the remaining foundations of your civilization only due to the fact that it has made powerless.

Thanks for the kind words!

If anything I am proud of is, it is my religio-cultural identity which I derive from shared muslim civilization and being son of the soil (in the same order). For me, the matters of heart and mind go hand in hand (in the same order), neither bothering the other.

Whatever, I do here is to make my humble effort to empowering the sources of identity. If ever you see a post that is in conflict with that, let alone helping the destruction, you have all the rights to point it out and counter.
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
Question and submissions in red

Refer to post# 51.

Please write the specific Qs once again as due to your way of replying now I have lost the context.

Point regarding Syed Ahmed: I agree with you on the principal purpose of their campaign but he and his successor did try to enforce in area under their control.

I disagree with ur point regarding Imam. Struggle against Shah was the secondary purpose.

Your point regarding the Talban is an issue of scale. My original point and argument stand.
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
Ahl e Hadith is an old Muslim tradition of Muhaddisin. Wahabi movement is a modern phenomenon pf 17th century which has some resemblances with the Muhaddiseen

Very briefly, when, where and how this Muhaddisin tradition originated?

Besides denial/acceptance of mysticism, is there any other big difference between them and the mainstream (deobandi and later brailvi as well) muslim tradition?
 

Resonant

MPA (400+ posts)
فاسئلوا اہل الذکر ان کنتم لاتعلمون۔۔۔۔۔"اور یاد والوں سے پوچھ لو اگر تمہیں پتہ نہیں ہے تو"۔۔۔۔یہ یاد والے ہی کو تو پیر و مرشد کہتے ہیں۔۔۔۔
 

ZenoInTheZoo

Minister (2k+ posts)
3.GIF


Love fearlessly jumped into the fire of Namrud
Intellect is absorbed in the spectacle from roof‐top still

4.GIF


Love moves fast in action under the messenger’s precept
Intellect has not even understood the Love’s message still

4.GIF


Thanks for this couplet.

Second line highlights the profound irony of the modernists and the hard core rationalists you often find on this forum and the crux of all their fallacies.

I think translation of the second line also needs a second look. It should be:

Intellect has yet to develop capability (rather it is still in its infancy) to understand the meanings of the prophet's (pbuh) message.
 
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ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
Refer to post# 51.
Plz see Post 43
Please write the specific Qs once again as due to your way of replying now I have lost the context.
It is you who initially started at least three discussions on the same time.
Point regarding Syed Ahmed: I agree with you on the principal purpose of their campaign but he and his successor did try to enforce in area under their control.
Enforcing Shari'ah is normal. When a Muslim king gets control of an area he will enforce religious law according to juristic tradition. However my point is there that this movement was meant to fight against Sikh occupation.
I disagree with ur point regarding Imam. Struggle against Shah was the secondary purpose.
Well! then it is the difference between our interpretation of Iranian revolution. I consider something secondary which you consider primary. However, it is an historical fact that dethroning Shah was a national struggle led by religious people, communists and liberals.
Your point regarding the Talban is an issue of scale. My original point and argument stand.
Are Taliban Religious Ulama?? My simple question.

I think that you can't give even a single interpretation of Din which allows enforcement of Shari'ah (especially in Muslim lands) through violent means. I fact such an interpretation by clergy doesn't exist. The recent violent movements Daesh, Talban, Alqaeda are reactions of globalization as a renowned political scientist Negri has reiterated that globalization creates its own enemies.
submissions in red
 

saeenji

Minister (2k+ posts)
4.GIF


Thanks for this couplet.

Second line is the profound irony of the modernists and hard core rationalists you often find on this forum and the crux of all their fallacies.

I think translation of the second line also needs a second look. It should be:

Intellect has yet to develop capability (rather it is still in its infancy) to understand the meanings of the prophet's (pbuh) message.

My pleasure. :)

couldn't agree more with your translation. :)

This developing capability is getting there with time.
 
ح

حکایت جنوں

Guest
Very briefly, when, where and how this Muhaddisin tradition originated?
Dear Zeno sahib you can get this information from a standard text book on Islamic juristic tradition and Hadith studies. When we discuss such matters we believe that the other person know this primary information. Sorry if you find the comment a bit harsh

Besides denial/acceptance of mysticism, is there any other big difference between them and the mainstream (deobandi and later brailvi as well) muslim tradition?
Sir g ki kr raye o???? Mera husn e zann tha yeh information aap ko ho gi. The old tradition of Muhadiseen and Ahl e Hadith is not against Sufism. Even Indian Wahabis like Nawab Sadiq Hasan Khan were Sufis and followed old tradition of Muhaddiseen.

Secondly, Deobandis and Barelvis are the constructions of colonial era. I think you wanted to draw a comparison between Muhaddiseen and Ahnaf. Moreover Muhaddiseen is the mainstream Muslim tradition. The only difference between Muhaddiseen and Ahnaf is that Muhaddiseen are normally Shafii or Hanbali and Ahnaf as name suggests are the followers of Hanafi school.
Submissions in red
 

Sadia Hashmi

Senator (1k+ posts)
Shariat Qur'an, Sunnat aur un ki bunyaad per hamari fiqhi rawaiton jo qanoon akhaz kia hai, shariat kehlaata hai

Kaynaat ko taskheer krna ilm mein taraqqi se mashroot hai. Aap ko is se kisi ne nahi roka. baharhaal scientific discourses or theories per musalmaanon ka aik tehzeebi moaqqaf hona chahiey woh ham bataur musalmaan ikhtiaar nahi kr sakey. Wajoohaat mein ooper wale comments mein likh chuka hoon


ok

1)Quranic verse 4:34, gives a right to man to beat his wife but we dont have sunnah about it so how can u take this verse? quran ko follow karen gay ya sunnah ko?

2) keeping bear is sunnah,,right,,, but is not mentioned in Quran...... if it is sunnah then wat about men of other religions who keep bear?

yahan bhe kis ko follow karen?

agr ilm hasil karny say kisi ny nae roka tu wo kea baat hy k hum ilm hasil kar he nahi saky?