Is wearing a tie in Islam Haram?

[abduttawwab]

--Jazak-Allah khair brother babadeena for your understanding and i appreciate your kind words the purpose was as you said,i'll quote you

I have asked them, that Naoozubilla "was Allah in short of words, (specially when their favourite arabic word "Hadith" has been used 28 times in Quran, ) that they have to justify their stance by another word i.e. "atteho".

this is what i meant earlier when i said "you look for exact and precise words to follow anything" so brother there's not a shadow of doubt about The Holy Quran being the Ultimate Authority by Allah (SWT) that was revealed to Our Beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) and the Absolute knowledge of "Unseen" as understood by any layman is the Only attribute of Allah (SWT) and lies only and only with Allah (SWT).Islam has to be adopted in it's entirety that includes covering all aspects of the whole Seera and Life of Our Beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) we get to see that in Ahadeeth just as the occasion of Eid we get to know about it via hadeeth,such an important and vital aspect and institute can not be denied or deliberately overlooked,as far as fabrications and weak hadeeth are concerned it's true one needs to be vigilant about them and Alhamdulillah Ulama-e-deen have done an amazing work in separating out those,i fully understand your stance you do consult or have a look at those hadeeth pertaining to commands in The Holy Quran for instance Namaaz.Zakat etc. but you can not simply limit your approach to that,had that been the case you surely would've separated out yourself from the practice of eid which you said was passed and carried on from generations.The Holy Quran when read with tafseer does cover the proper contexts and explanations regarding Ayats and you'd even see if any hadeeth that's relevant to a specific verse mentioned in the tafseer,having said that,it surely does not mean you need all the Sahah-e-Sitta to understand The Holy Quran but whatever was said by Our Beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) apart from the revelation of The Divine and Sacred Word Of Allah (SWT) needs to be accepted,obeyed and followed.


--Brother as far as tie is concerned i never said it's haraam or halal,the point was simply choice,just as today's most european and american reverts would love to adopt and wear an arab dress just to get the feel of connection with Our Holy Prophet ( Peace be upon him) or may be get themselves dressed in a kurta shalwar to feel more comfortable,hope brother that clarifies any misconception.May Allah guides us all and May Allah (SWT) makes us all steadfast on HIS true deen,Ameen.

Masha`Allah nicely concluded!
Jazak`Allahu khair!

 

[babadeena]

"you look for exact and precise words to follow anything"

This is your conclusion. What I said and still saying that "the word Hadith has been used 28 times in Quran, there is no such mention that "follow Hadith", whereas the Hadith-lovers take the cover of arabic word "ateeho" and project that this is the word which conveys to follow Hadith" There is day and night difference between these two arabic words.

Look Brother, if u go through my initial posts I have said that:

taul wrote:
@ babadeena
-From your remarks it is unclear whether you follow hadeeth which are sayings of our Holy prophet (Peace be upon him) partially or do not follow them at all!!!
I screen everything through Quran and for me Quran's authority is absolute and must. If it goes against Quran then I do not accept it.

Since concept of "Eid" is a practice travelling from generation to generation and is not against the concept of Quran, in the sense that you pray to Allah to give thanks for completing fast and enjoy the day with your family. So it is not absolute a catalyst that "since we celebrate Eid, we may accept everything blindly which has been attributed to our Prophet(PBUH) and specially knowing (with your admission also), that there were many and many fabricated and fraud Hadiths".

BTW, when you have time, please give me a Hadith for my guidance which states Salat Janaza : that in first Takbeer we recite Surah Fatiha, in second Takbir we should recite Darood and in the Third Dua and in Fourth end. I wish to keep that Hadith in my record and will appreciate your cooperation.
My position is as is and even more cemented that "everything is to be screened through Quran because it is "Hablillah".
Thanks.

 

[taul]

"you look for exact and precise words to follow anything"

This is your conclusion. What I said and still saying that "the word Hadith has been used 28 times in Quran, there is no such mention that "follow Hadith", whereas the Hadith-lovers take the cover of arabic word "ateeho" and project that this is the word which conveys to follow Hadith" There is day and night difference between these two arabic words.

--Brother,don't get me wrong but your words are pretty clear regarding your reservation,so by your words first of all,if such a word of "hadeeth" ( as understood by all muslims) isn't mentioned and instructed to be followed in The Holy Quran then you should not even consider looking up to any hadeeth at all even if it matches with the content of The Holy Quran,Secondly you shouldn't be even celebrating eid since it is mentioned specifically in the "Ahadeeth" ( the reason for celebrating) and not merely passed on via generations as if some practices which you mentioned earlier (Shabe-Baraat,Eid-Milad-un-Nabi,the way such celebrations are held zealously and Soaim) that i clarified to be not even a part of Islam.

--Brother,you unintentionally tried to put words in my mouth by saying:

specially knowing (with your admission also), that there were many and many fabricated and fraud Hadiths"

and making it sound like as if almost all of hadeeth are fabrications or weak hadeeth!!!All i said was any fabrications and weak hadeeth are carefully scrutinized and sidelined and been taken care of by the respected Ulama-e-deen (that is again if you even believe and respect any Aalim),and then further complementing it by stressing on blindly so hard,beats me!!!!

 

[such bolo]

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem

@babadeena
I screen everything through Quran and for me Quran's authority is absolute and must. If it goes against Quran then I do not accept it.

brother taul and abduttawab...this is the most common argument presented by rejecters of hadeeth...and through this argument they get the following benefits:

1) they simply discredit the complete Ilmul Hadeeth including Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim...

although Alhamdulillah there is Ijma among scholars and they all are agreed upon Bukhari and Muslim as the most authentic compilation of Hadeeth and there is no week hadith in these two books... Alhamdulillah..

(Few Names of some of the great early scholars of Islam who have approved Saheeh Bukhari as the most authentic book on the face of the earth after Quran.

Imam Ahmed bin Hambel, Imam Yahya bin Moaeen, Imam Ali bin Madeenee, Imam Aqeeli, Imam Daruktuni, Imam Hakim Neesapori, Imam Nisai, Imam abu Fatah Ajli, Imam fazal bin Ismael Jarjani, Imam Balqeeni, Hafiz Ibn Salah, Abu Ishaq Isfarenee, Imam ul Harmain, Imam Nowi, Imam abulfalah Hambli, Abul Fatah Qasheeri, Imam Abdullah Al Hameedi, Hafiz Abu Nasr Sajzi, Imam Shamsuddin Kermani, Allama Qastalani, Ibn Hajr, Imam Ibn Taimiyah, Hafiz Ibn Katheer, Hafiz Sakhawi)

as far as other Compilations of Hadeeth are concerned they are also authentic in a sense that they all contains ahadeeth with asanaad (chains) and it is very easy for Scholars and students of Hadeeth to filter authentic ahadeeth from week/dhaeef ahadeeth and alhamdulillah the sepciality of asanaad (chain) makes the ilmul hadeeth one of the most authentic ilm/science on the face of the earth (I personally call it one of the Miracles of Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam)).

2) the above argument gives them a room to do whatever they want, gives them a room to explain quran as per their whims and wishes and intellect, without considering the specific circumstances in which the specific ayah was revealed and the intentions of Almighty Allah which only Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) could know and explain. and of course those specific circumstances and intentions of Allah (subhanwau tallah) help us to understand Quran more accurately.

(surprisingly you would see that most of these so called Only Quran believers use Arabic Dictionaries to translate Quran (they have more faith on dictioneries then Saheeh Ahadeeth) and some times they even dont have the ability to translate the quran by their own but on the contrary they claim that their understanding of Quran is more authentic then the understanding of Salaf (Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), Sahaba, Tabain etc).

3) above argument gives them a room to simply reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) when ever they want and simply shout the slogan "for me Quran is enough".


Reasons why their argument is wrong

1) For us authentic Hadeeth means an action or saying of Prophet Muhammad (salla laahu alaihi wasallam) therefore, rejecting authentic hadeeth means rejecting sayings of Prophet Muhammad (salall laahu alaihi wasallam)

2) Actions and sayings of Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) can not be against Quran.

3) Screening saheeh ahadeeth through quran is completely a wrong notion.

4) Screening saheeh ahadeeth through Quran means screening sayings and actions of Prophet (salall laahu alaihi wasalla) through Quran which is completely illogical and act of blasphemy.

5) what if a Sahabi had stood up and said i would screen the sayings of Prophet (sallal laahu alaih waallam) through quran and accept only those sayings of Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi waallam) which are according to Quran and would not accept any saying against Quran (nauzobillah)...we know that no sahabi could have said any thing like that...in the same way we say that any one who says that I would screen the saheeh ahadeeth through quran he is doing act of blasphamy.

6) If someone starts saying that I will screen Quran through basic Human Rights, if I find any thing against human rights in Quran I will not take it and if I find any thing according to human rights I will accept it....

Of course being a muslim and being the true believer of Quran we will reject that notion as we believe that there is nothing in Quran against basic human rights likewise we say that there is no saheeh hadeeth against Quran, and if someone thinks that there is any thing then of course it is the fault of his intellect and understanding rather than Quran, and isntead of screening Quran we need to screen our understanding and intellect.

7) There are different groups of Hadeeth Rejecters who are not agreed upon the number of Salat... some of them pray 3 times a day, some of them pray 4 times, and some of them 5 times, and some of them dont pray at all... but on the contrary they falsely claim that if the whole ummah just start believing Only Quran we (ummah) will be united... After rejecting the Sunnah of Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and understanding quran through their intellect if they are not united upon the number of Salat how come they claim to unite ummah on other issues without following Sunnah.

8) Their (Hadeeth Rejecters) understanding of Quran is based on anti Hadeeth mentality....therefore, their understanding can not be accepted at all...

As we all know that lots of Orientalists (non muslims, christians, jews etc.) have translated and tried to understand Quran but as their approach was completely different and their approach was to critisize Quran and Islam rather than to understand Quran, therefore, they could not reach to the right point.

Like wise the approach of these Hadeeth Rejecters is to explain the quran in a way so that the doors towards accepting hadeeth could be shut....that attitude would never let them understand quran in its real sense...as there are many places in Quran where a student is stuck and he definitely needs the guidance from the Sunnah and Seerah of Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) to understand it properly.

May Allah guide us keep us on straight path.

To know more about Pervaizi Cult (Hadeeth Rejecters) the following material is worth reading.

Aina e Pervaiziyet
http://ahlulhadeeth.net/book/Aina-e-Parwaiziat.pdf

Prohibition of explaining Quran by mere opinion
http://www.qsep.com/media/135.php

Critical analysis of Modernist and Hadeeth Rejecters by Brother Sajid Qayum
http://www.qsep.com/books/modernists.html

Dawam e Hadeeth by sheikh Hafiz Muhammad Gondalvi
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/Dawamhadith1.zip
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/Dawamhadith2.zip

Makalaat by Allama Mohammad Ismail salafi.
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/SALFI1.zip
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/SALFI2.zip
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/SALFI3.zip

Difa e Sunnet by Allama Sanullah Amratsari
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/DifaSunnat.zip

Nusrat ul Bari by Mulana Abdul Rauf Rehmani (Saheeh Bukhari ka Mukam)
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/NusratulBari.zip

Difa e Saheeh Bukhari by Abul Qasim Saif Banarsi
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/DifaBukhari1.zip
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/DifaBukhari2.zip
http://www.docs.umm-ul-qura.org/DifaBukhari3.zip

 

[babadeena]

Brother Taul,
I shall, inshallah, revert to your post. Little bit busy with other things.
thanks.

 

[babadeena]

Brother,don't get me wrong but your words are pretty clear regarding your reservation,so by your words first of all,if such a word of "hadeeth" ( as understood by all muslims) isn't mentioned and instructed to be followed in The Holy Quran then you should not even consider looking up to any hadeeth at all even if it matches with the content of The Holy Quran,

Brother, I think either I am not able to convey what I am trying or there is some other problem. It was all along my "question" and still it is there and not mine "position" which u r deducing. My question had been and is still:

a) In Quran the arabic word "Hadith", which in any case is the same word in other language, has been used 28 times. And even in a verse it is stated :In which "Hadith" after Quran, you(people) will believe". So it cannot be said that this word in all its meaning has not been used. In my previous post I gave you readily available references.

b) The "Hadith Lovers", while justifying the "Hadith" generally and and mainly use the verses from Quran where in word "obedience" (Attah) has been used.

So my question was/is that "attah" is equal to "hadith", what kind of logic this is? that a verse says "Oh ye believe, Obey Allah, Obey Rasool" and Hadith lovers say that this is "the verse allowing the usage of Hadith". Then questions arise : what is "Attah" of Allah, and what is "attah" of others who also carry the same word "attah". Is "Attah Allah and Rasool" is the same one command or "both different commands", if both different then, what is "attah of Allah"?

-Brother,you unintentionally tried to put words in my mouth by saying
and making it sound like as if almost all of hadeeth are fabrications or weak hadeeth!!!All i said was any fabrications and weak hadeeth are carefully scrutinized and sidelined and been taken care of by the respected Ulama-e-deen (that is again if you even believe and respect any Aalim),and then further complementing it by stressing on blindly so hard,beats me!!!!

Ok Brother let us find some common ground:
a) Were ever Hadiths fabricated, Yes or No.
b) Are there still some Hadiths which seem to be fabricated or not genuine or
have been screened thoroughly and at this time only those Hadiths are
available, which are "authentic"
c) Is it the case, that "Hadiths" at this present age, even considered authentic and valid are denied by some groups of believers on their own criteria and accepted by others on their own criteria. and This process is "on going".
d) Is still exist some possibility of Fabricating the Hadith; Yes or No.
e) as per common history, what were the reasons of fabricating the Hadiths by people what were their objectives:
f) Is it extremely objectionable that if "someone screen any thing through Quran", specially keeping in fact the harsh reality that "Is there any thing in Islam, on which all Believers are "agreeable", ranging from Namaz, Rooza, Haj, Zakat, Kalma, just anything you may name it.

On which points are you agreeable or not agreed?

Last again request which was made earlier also:

BTW, when you have time, please give me a Hadith for my guidance which states Salat Janaza : that in first Takbeer we recite Surah Fatiha, in second Takbir we should recite Darood and in the Third Dua and in Fourth end. I wish to keep that Hadith in my record and will appreciate your cooperation.
My position is as is and even more cemented that "everything is to be screened through Quran because it is "Hablillah".

 

[taul]

So my question was/is that "attah" is equal to "hadith", what kind of logic this is? that a verse says "Oh ye believe, Obey Allah, Obey Rasool" and Hadith lovers say that this is "the verse allowing the usage of Hadith". Then questions arise : what is "Attah" of Allah, and what is "attah" of others who also carry the same word "attah". Is "Attah Allah and Rasool" is the same one command or "both different commands", if both different then, what is "attah of Allah"?

--Brother,first of all what is meant by "Obeying" as in the Ayat used "Atta'a"???Obeying means to follow what ever is being said and done by any person,in our case whatever is revealed on Our Beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) is meant to be followed and obeyed,now as per some the word "Atta'a" means the revelation of The Holy Quran itself and nothing more than that,meaning some people think the obedience ends right there and then!!In our case we need to Obey and follow our Beloved Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) in all the aspects of his life.


--Brother,it's not mere deduction on my part but your crystal clear emphasis on the word "hadeeth" so your suggestion is if instead of "hadeeth" the proper and literal meaning of "Atta'a" is used which means "Obedience" then all would be well??As per "Atta'a Allah" is concerned it is "Obeying The Holy Quran" which is "The Holy Word of Allah ( SWT)" ofcourse revealed on Our Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) so automatically it means "Atta'a-Ar-Rasool" and Our Holy Prophet not just got this beautiful and Ultimate revelation but also lived by it,doing exactly as was ordered by Allah (SWT) through his words,sayings and actions literally and you get to see both the criteria of "Obeying" here for all of us to be followed and obeyed as well as the meaning of "hadeeth" which means "saying or talking".


--a,Yes....b) I believe that most Ahadeeth collected in Sahah-e-Sitta are authentic one's and may contain some weak ahadeeth with the proper mentioning of it being weak..c) There may be some who differ in their approach..d)..No.....f) Wallahu-Aa'lum...
e)..Yes,i'd say i find it quite strange when someone so sternly objects to the very meaning of the title and banner under which such a unity occurs.

Last again request which was made earlier also:
Quote:
BTW, when you have time, please give me a Hadith for my guidance which states Salat Janaza : that in first Takbeer we recite Surah Fatiha, in second Takbir we should recite Darood and in the Third Dua and in Fourth end. I wish to keep that Hadith in my record and will appreciate your cooperation.
My position is as is and even more cemented that "everything is to be screened through Quran because it is "Hablillah".

--Brother,We were all taught the way of Namaaz first by our parents followed and corrected by our Islamic teachers and all the tasbeehat carried out by us in the Namaaz as well as Salaat Janaza are taught to us by our Respectable Ulama-e-karam.I'll just give you a short hadeeth regarding the method for going down into Sujud from the standing position in Prayer.."Aboo Hurayrah was reported to have said, that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, "If any of you performs Sajdah, he should not kneel like the camel but should place his hands before his knees". (Sunan Abu Daawood, Volume 1, Book of Salah, Chapter 292, Pg. 215, Hadeeth No. 839). After the Salaah dua's one may read could be found in hadeeth as well just to give an example;

Allaahumma inniy as-aluka filal khayraat wa tarkal munkiraati, wa hubbal masaakin, wa izaa aradta bi ibaadika fitnatan faqbidhny ilayka ghayra maftoon. (Tirmidhi Hadith 3233)


Allaahumma inniy aoodhu bika an uradda ilaa ardhalil umr, wa a?oodhu bika min fitnatid-Dunyaa wa aoodhu bika min adhaabil-Qabr. (Bukhari Hadith6374)




--You may find this dua beneficial mentioned in the Hadeeth which can be read after the 3rd takbir in Salat Janaza,

?????????? ??????? ?????????? ???????????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???? ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????????? ? ?????? ????????????? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ? ( ??????? ?????????????? ???????????????

Or this one

?????????? ??????? ???? ??????????? ? ????????? ??????? ?????? ? ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ?????????? ? ??????????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????????? ????????? ???? ??????????? ????? ???????? ????????? ??????????? ???? ????????? ? ???????????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????? ? ????????? ??????? ???? ???????? ? ????????? ??????? ???? ???????? ? ???????????? ?????????? ? ?????????? ???? ??????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ?( ??????? ???????? ???????????????? ??????????????

 

[babadeena]

Brother Taul,
I think we are getting some "common & agreed ground" to discuss:
-Brother,first of all what is meant by "Obeying" as in the Ayat used "Atta'a"???Obeying means to follow what ever is being said and done by any person,in our case whatever is revealed

on Our Beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) is meant to be followed and obeyed,now as per some the word "Atta'a" means the revelation of The Holy Quran itself and nothing more than that,meaning some people think the obedience ends right there and then!!I

So we agree, that as per Quran, the justification of Hadith is as per "GENERALLY" and/or "MAINLY" those Ayas which contain the words "Attah" like:
??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ??????????
Apart from them there are no "Specific Commandment having the word of
Hadith, itself"

In our case we need to Obey and follow our Beloved Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) in all the aspects of his life.

So "in all the aspects of his life" are only contained in Hadiths.

As per "Atta'a Allah" is concerned it is "Obeying The Holy Quran" which is "The Holy Word of Allah ( SWT)" ofcourse revealed on Our Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) so automatically it means "Atta'a-Ar-Rasool"

So Atta's Allah is "Obedience of Holy Quran"

and Our Holy Prophet not just got this beautiful and Ultimate revelation but also lived by it,doing exactly as was ordered by Allah (SWT) through his words,sayings and actions literally and you get to see both the criteria of "Obeying" here for all of us to be followed and obeyed as well as the meaning of "hadeeth" which means "saying or talking".

And this is Hadith.
So the above quoted verse or like verses contain 'TWO different commands" one is for Quran and other is for Hadith, Yes or No.

-Brother,We were all taught the way of Namaaz first by our parents followed and corrected by our Islamic teachers and all the tasbeehat carried out by us in the Namaaz as well as Salaat Janaza are taught to us by our Respectable Ulama-e-karam.

I remember I wrote somewhere the same thing:

Sunnah were the practical practices and travelled from generations to generations. We learned Salaat how to perform it from practices of elders......

How much categorically you agree on the above post? And If u agree, a new thread with relevant head can be opened so that the discussion may have more substance in it.
Thanks.

 

[taul]

So we agree, that as per Quran, the justification of Hadith is as per "GENERALLY" and/or "MAINLY" those Ayas which contain the words "Attah" like:
??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????? Apart from them there are no "Specific Commandment having the word of Hadith, itself"

---Brother,we can go over circles over this with no end at sight,Yes as per me "Atta'a" means "Obeying whatever was revealed on Our Beloved Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) The Holy Quran and all those things being said and done by Our Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) the Hadith" thus completing the very meaning of "Atta'a" and "Obedience".

So "in all the aspects of his life" are only contained in Hadiths.

--Without hadith you can not see the whole picture,again that brings us to the same question of what to eat and what not,how to sleep,Musafaha,cutting nails,taking bath,how to drink water,Moonsighting and so on so forth.

So Atta's Allah is "Obedience of Holy Quran"

--I explained it very concisely and you can not take a part of it and leave the other,so my whole statement clarifies everything.

And this is Hadith.

--This is the proper definition of "Atta'a" meaning "Obeying whatever was revealed,said and done by Our Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him).

So the above quoted verse or like verses contain 'TWO different commands" one is for Quran and other is for Hadith, Yes or No.

--No,as i mentioned above and earlier clearly,you can not take one and leave the other part.

How much categorically you agree on the above post?

--Sunnah has it's basis from the hadeeth.The practices that you are referring to being carried down by generations like eid has it's basis from the Hadeeth and the way darood is read in the Salat-e-Janaza must've come about a concensus amongst Ulama-e-Karam.

 

[babadeena]

@taul
Brother! I have gone through many verses of Quran where "Attah" is mentioned, I may say:
a) at some points, Attah is restricted with the word "Samah".
b) At some point, Attah is at the spur of moment, people are told about specific thing and they do not act. etc etc.
Therefore I am of the view, that "attah" is done at the spur of moment for a living entity.
d) For example, wives have been order to make attah of husband, attah of ulil amar etc.
On this basis I can say that the word attah is completely different in meaning. "Itbah" is something else and it is again and again said that "itbah Quran".
If you wish to discuss some particular verse from whole of quran with reference to your position, it will be a pleasure.
e) Hadiths were written after so many years of Prophet(PBUH)'s death. There is no proof that these were written and compiled at the life time of Prophet(PBUH) as is the case of Quran.
For me "practices" are completely different. These are like things how to do and these had/have and are going to be travelled from generations to generations.

As you have seen, we could not find a Hadith wherein "Namaz-e-Jinaza" is there in the form as we practice. That also shows that this had been the practice not the compilation.

Thanks.