Sister do not under estimate the djinns, Did u look the qalabazis of that 60 year old woman.. I am holy scared...
angryoldman
Minister (2k+ posts)
its very important topic.but there should't be any dought abt it if they exsist or not.of course they exsist.iblees oppointed a jin to every human being.which give us "waswasa"(hindden messages) surah Anaas.and jin has same level as the person has.
The use of word jinn in the quran is not meant what people mean by the use of the same word.
Jinns as people believe them do not exist but jinns talked about in the quran are people and they did and do exist. Iblees was a human not some other kind of creation. The quran has been deliberately misinterpreted by those forces who wanted to derail its message as a deen. If islam has become as mazhab instead of deen and it was all done by muslims themselves then what else these people will not do to it if they could?
The so called mullas and auliaas and scholars who pushed through changes and spread them widely without even giving them any thought, should not be trusted. They are criminals who changed islam from what it was to what it is. It is all magic of mullas, ruling elite and ignorant muslims.
People need to think things through and question their interpretations. By accepting all these make belief things in the name of islam people are actually helping destroy islam and muslims.
Jinns as people believe them do not exist but jinns talked about in the quran are people and they did and do exist. Iblees was a human not some other kind of creation. The quran has been deliberately misinterpreted by those forces who wanted to derail its message as a deen. If islam has become as mazhab instead of deen and it was all done by muslims themselves then what else these people will not do to it if they could?
The so called mullas and auliaas and scholars who pushed through changes and spread them widely without even giving them any thought, should not be trusted. They are criminals who changed islam from what it was to what it is. It is all magic of mullas, ruling elite and ignorant muslims.
People need to think things through and question their interpretations. By accepting all these make belief things in the name of islam people are actually helping destroy islam and muslims.
Ok you cursed Muslims, ullemas and aliwyas but what about "enlightened moderated" Jews and christians who are involved in doing Kebbalah and other satanic rituals to get control over Jinns..
What about the famous holy grail/ghost.... I doubt that you belong to kadyani group??? because so far I have met many kadyanis and they have the same baseless and pointless logic regarding Quran, Jinns and apocalypse..
Dear EniGma, I don't curse anyone just stating facts as I understand them. Allah sent his message for giving people his direction and not to reenforce the nonsense the people already believed.
Our problem is that we try to understand the quran according to those peoples' explanations who never understood things from Allah's point of view rather they just pushed forth whatever was already in their own minds according to their own cultures and ways of life. Also prophetic household was destroyed for this very purpose to bring back imperialism against which the prophets struggled through out history.
The islam in the quran is no where to be seen because people are happy with whatever they have as islam. You cannot get back to that islam today for the very same reasons you could not in the first place. Imagine how hard the divine prophets had to struggle against people full of superstitions. This is the real miracle we are not seeing. Even today one is not allowed to stop muslims from worshiping graves and peers.
Getting people out of nonsense is biggest miracle of our prophet. However they did not stay away from nonsense for very long just like bani israel did not keep away from all sorts of nonsense despite prophet after prophet tried his utmost to put them on right track. All they did was fight with those who tried to educate them.
The quran is full of rational arguments simply for educating people out of make beliefs. I don't think anyone can come out of nonsense unless one makes real effort in trying to discover for oneself what exactly the quran may be trying to convey. All people who try and interpret the quran or try to understand the quran according to their preconceived ideas are bound to fail to understand it because the quran is here to convey its own ideas and concepts. This is absolutely vital point that is decisive in understanding of the quran in my view.
I have nothing against people who sincerely try and fail but only those who stop people even from trying for whatever reasons of their own. The quran takes scientific approach to things and stops people from make beliefs by asking them for proofs for their claims. Blind faith is wrong in light of the quran
regards and all the best.
Jack Sparrow
Minister (2k+ posts)
You idiot Qadiyani ! . Iblees is a jinn and jinns are not humans .Quran mein Allah(SWT) nay clearly mention kiya hay ,keh Jinn ko us nay Aag say takhleeq kiya hay aur Insaan ko mitti say.
Dear js, Iblees is a jin 18/50. But jins are not human, you cannot prove that from the quran alone. It is your make belief that jinns are not humans that is all. If you could explain in your own words what you think jinns are only then I can examine that and comment on that.
Jinns were created before humans, could also means right in front of them. When you are taken before a judge, it does not necessarily mean first you were taken and then the judge.
Not only that but word jinn means expert or master in a field. Something or someone hidden from someone's eyes. People you do not see for a while when you see them, you say hello stranger, long time no see. Not only that, it is also possible to say that people are possessed by jinns when they become ill because they have been infected by invisible small creatures eg germs and viruses. As the videos explain word jinn is from root JEEM, NOON and NOON. This root has various meanings. So why take only and only those meanings which when scrutinized make no sense?
People as you know attribute many capabilities to these jinns and if these jinns have these capabilities and they could be controlled by some people then imagine what people could use the jinns for? Sky is the limit, isn't it? Do we see any evidence of that? None whatsoever. If you therefore put 2 and 2 together then answer is clear that jinns are what we make them to be. Do you think people will be spending trillions on spying and weapons and gadgets etc when any baba with jinns will be happy to help them? Politicians who go to such lengths to blackmail each other would they not implant evidences and get evidences against each other? Allah is simply telling us that jinns are a people full of energy, who come or are brought before masses to be their leaders. The fight between Adam and Iblees is over who has more right to be a leader of the people at the time. Iblees comes from a background of ruling elite and adam comes from back ground of down trodden poeple so iblees thinks he has more right to rule people than adam.
Why is this the case? Because the quran is all about who should rule the world and how or why. If you do not look at the quran in this context your whole understanding of the quran is far off the track. Read surah alfatiha very carefully. This is proclamation of allah to humanity. That I am god and only I have the right to rule in my kingdom. Here is my book for you people so live by what I tell you.
Look what happened to people who lived by what I told them and those who did not. Once a person has right way of looking at the quran then everything in the quran falls in its place. No mysteries just pure and simple facts. No superstition whatsoever. To create paradise here on earth will be a great miracle, would it not? For that you need a program and implementation. The prophets did that many times over. Can we? Of course if we understood the same message the same way and implemented it the same way we ought to get same results.
So people instead of fighting over nonsense make beliefs must start thinking things through so that we could see where we are going. By turning our ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and simple minded people into more foolish and more stupid people we are not going to make any progress, are we? So it would be better if tried to educate our people. Make beliefs are ruining our minds and our people day by day so we must come off this conveyer belt if we wish to see ourselves a better people that others look up to us as an example.
These people who claim to have supernatural powers from Allah are liars and so are those who attribute lies to them. The prophets are told to tell us again and again that they too are just human being and the only difference is these are best of human beings whom Allah has inspired with his divine message to lead people from darkness of ignorance to light of knowledge.
regards and all the best.
Jinns were created before humans, could also means right in front of them. When you are taken before a judge, it does not necessarily mean first you were taken and then the judge.
Not only that but word jinn means expert or master in a field. Something or someone hidden from someone's eyes. People you do not see for a while when you see them, you say hello stranger, long time no see. Not only that, it is also possible to say that people are possessed by jinns when they become ill because they have been infected by invisible small creatures eg germs and viruses. As the videos explain word jinn is from root JEEM, NOON and NOON. This root has various meanings. So why take only and only those meanings which when scrutinized make no sense?
People as you know attribute many capabilities to these jinns and if these jinns have these capabilities and they could be controlled by some people then imagine what people could use the jinns for? Sky is the limit, isn't it? Do we see any evidence of that? None whatsoever. If you therefore put 2 and 2 together then answer is clear that jinns are what we make them to be. Do you think people will be spending trillions on spying and weapons and gadgets etc when any baba with jinns will be happy to help them? Politicians who go to such lengths to blackmail each other would they not implant evidences and get evidences against each other? Allah is simply telling us that jinns are a people full of energy, who come or are brought before masses to be their leaders. The fight between Adam and Iblees is over who has more right to be a leader of the people at the time. Iblees comes from a background of ruling elite and adam comes from back ground of down trodden poeple so iblees thinks he has more right to rule people than adam.
Why is this the case? Because the quran is all about who should rule the world and how or why. If you do not look at the quran in this context your whole understanding of the quran is far off the track. Read surah alfatiha very carefully. This is proclamation of allah to humanity. That I am god and only I have the right to rule in my kingdom. Here is my book for you people so live by what I tell you.
Look what happened to people who lived by what I told them and those who did not. Once a person has right way of looking at the quran then everything in the quran falls in its place. No mysteries just pure and simple facts. No superstition whatsoever. To create paradise here on earth will be a great miracle, would it not? For that you need a program and implementation. The prophets did that many times over. Can we? Of course if we understood the same message the same way and implemented it the same way we ought to get same results.
So people instead of fighting over nonsense make beliefs must start thinking things through so that we could see where we are going. By turning our ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and simple minded people into more foolish and more stupid people we are not going to make any progress, are we? So it would be better if tried to educate our people. Make beliefs are ruining our minds and our people day by day so we must come off this conveyer belt if we wish to see ourselves a better people that others look up to us as an example.
These people who claim to have supernatural powers from Allah are liars and so are those who attribute lies to them. The prophets are told to tell us again and again that they too are just human being and the only difference is these are best of human beings whom Allah has inspired with his divine message to lead people from darkness of ignorance to light of knowledge.
regards and all the best.
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crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Refuting the claims of "Pervaizis" and "Qadianis"
You are back with your Pervaizi stuff yet again. All the Muslims over the centuries accept in the Holy Quran "Al-Jin" is used in three meanings.
1- The creation "Jinns" who were created from Fire by Allah SWT.
2- All other creations, which are not visible to human, eyes, i.e. Microbes etc and it include the Angels.
3- People who are aliens, or are from far flung areas.
But when the Holy Qurans mentions Jinns as a separate creation of Allah SWT, it is very clearly identified as such. You should stop spreading lies against the Holy Quran.
Let me explain the Jinns Creation of Allah SWT, separate from the Humans, or Al-Ins in the Holy Quran.
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ (
51:56)
51:56 And [tell them that] I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may [know and] worship Me.
Men and Jinns are two separate creations of Allah SWT, and both are created to Serve Him SWT. I
Your lies that Jinns are people and not Creation of Allah SWT from fire do not cut mustard.
You are not trying to say, that the Holy Quran did not include all the Humans in this verse and left out some and treated them as Jinns?
This Quranic verse like many many more, which always separate the Jinns as different creation from human, the Holy Quran has used two different words every time for two creations of Allah SWT, Al-Ins and Al-jin
Holy Quran also tells us the Jinns were created from fire.
وَخَلَقَ الْجَانَّ مِن مَّارِجٍ مِّن نَّارٍ (55:15)
55:15 whereas the invisible beings (JINNS) He has created out of a confusing flame of fire.
Min Maraj Min Nar means the fire of scorching winds (Nar as-samum) reflecting non-corporeal origin and composition of the Jinns. This is clarified in the verse 15:27
وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَانَ مِن صَلْصَالٍ مِّنْ حَمَإٍ مَّسْنُونٍ (15:26)
15:26 AND, INDEED, We have created man out of sounding clay, out of dark-slime transmuted.
وَالْجَآنَّ خَلَقْنَاهُ مِن قَبْلُ مِن نَّارِ السَّمُومِ (15:27)
15:27 whereas the invisible beings We had created, [long] before that, out of the fire of scorching winds.
The Holy Quran is very clear on the nature of Al-Jaans Plural of the Al-Jin. They are created from Naar as-samum Scorching fire. It is also made very clear that the Jinns were created before the humans created by Allah SWT.
I also know that you dont believe that Adam As was the first human, thats why I didnt mention the Verses where Iblis was order by Allah SWT to bow down to Adam, but Iblis refused because he thought he is superior to Adam due to his creation from fire and he was haughty.
The Holy Quran also Decreed that at the time of Jahiliah there were people who used to equate the Jinns with Allah SWT or equals to Allah SWT (nauzobillah); as they also falsely claimed Angels were daughters of Allah SWT (nauzobillah).
6:100 Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
إِلاَّ مَن رَّحِمَ رَبُّكَ وَلِذَلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لأَمْلأنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (11:119)
11:119 [all of them,] save those upon whom thy Sustainer has bestowed His grace. And to this end has He created them [all. But [as for those who refuse to avail themselves of divine guidance,] that word of thy Sustainer shall be fulfilled: "Most certainly will I fill hell with invisible beings as well as with humans, all together!"
Allah SWT decreed that He SWT would fill the Hell with the humans and the Jinns. If Jinns were people as you falsely maintain, than why they are not included in humans? Why Jinns are mentioned separately, unless they are different creation altogether.
It had been made clear in the Holy Quran that the divine revelations sent to the Prophets were sent for men and Jinns both. It is clarified in the Holy Quran that the Jinns also became Muslim after hearing the recitation of the Holy Quran.
46:29 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an: when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
First of all let me explain, before you twist the last word their people in the last part of the verse. You should read the translations presence thereof meaning the Jinns were present in the gathering, but because they are invisible beings even Prophet Muhammad SAW was not aware of their presence, they hear quietly the Holy Quran and then on their return to their own people, they warned them of their sins, i.e. conveyed them the message of the Holy Quran.
Allah SWT then sent this verse to Prophet Muhammad SAW, to inform him that the message of the Holy Quran is delivered to the Jinns as well by Prophet SAW.
If they were men as you claim, and as the Verse made abundantly clear, it was a company of them, i.e. a large group, they couldnt have stayed hidden from Prophet SAW and others who were present during the recitation. If they were strangers, they would have been recognised immediately in small, close knitted community of Muslims.
Even the possession by the Jinns is mentioned in the Holy Quran, not for anyone else but for our beloved Prophet SAW. Some of the unbelievers thought Prophet SAW was possessed by the Jinns or a Mad man (nauzobillah) when he SAW started to preach them Islam and start to recite the revealed verses of the Holy Quran to them.
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا رَجُلٌ بِهِ جِنَّةٌ فَتَرَبَّصُوا بِهِ حَتَّى حِينٍ (23:25)
23:25 (And some said): "He is only a man possessed: wait (and have patience) with him for a time."
If you know Arabic read the words Ina ho illa Rajalo bahi Jinnat the man possessed by Jinns. Therefore, it is confirmed by the Holy Quran that Jinns can posses humans, thats why Allah SWT denied that Prophet SAW was possessed, but he SAW off course was reciting to the Pagans the Word of Allah SWT which was so alien to them due to its message that they levy the charges on Prophet SAW that he is a man posses by jinns.
Do you want to maintain, the charge was that SAW was possessed by men or people as you claim?
أَوَلَمْ يَتَفَكَّرُواْ مَا بِصَاحِبِهِم مِّن جِنَّةٍ إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ (7:184)
7:184 Has it, then, never occurred to them that there is no madness whatever in [this] their fellowman? He is only a plain warner.
Madman or possessed as in 23:25 above, man possessed by Jinns, but he SAW is just a plain Warner, who is reciting them the verses of the Holy Quran to warn them of the awaiting torment Allah SWT has prepared for them in the life to come, unless they take heed of the message of the Holy Quran and submit themselves to one True God Allah SWT, Creator of the men and Jinns.
May Allah SWT guide you towards the truth and take you out of the influence of Miserable liars like Pervaiz and Mirza Kazzab.
If my guess is not wrong, you are the one who first debated with Sam Shamoun and then recently you have announced that you have left Islam?
Anyway, even if you are not the same person, I have to say I only saw few minutes of the video of the debate before stop watching. The person should have never debated with people who are spreading false and malicious rumours until and unless you are well verse with the Holy Quran and teachings of Islam.
If you were armed with the knowledge obtained from reading the translations and books by people like Pervaiz and Mirza Kazzab, then result would be no different as what happened to that person.
He not only given Islam the bad name, but in the end declared he is leaving Islam and becoming an Atheist. And to top it he announced him leaving Islam on the web site of the very people he debated with. In essence accepting their win over him.
Karim Sheikh the owner of Ahmedi.org congratulated him on leaving the Islam and became an Atheist on the same Islam and Muslim hating website. Same Karim Sheikh who has been proudly interviewed and presented by people who run the Cult forum.
The whole nexus is quite clear to those who understand and analyse the well-known facts. Nobody can doubt it, he has announced openly that he is leaving Islam also the message of Karim Sheikh taken from the Islam hating sites (involved in attacks on Islam and Muslims) is displayed on different forums, while Karim Sheikh association with certain people is also a well known fact.
I on the other hand always knew and criticised Ahmedi.org for their Islam and Muslims hating policies, and posted my condemnations on their forum. In the end, I was banned, because none of them could debate with me, therefore the easy solution was to ban me.
You are back with your Pervaizi stuff yet again. All the Muslims over the centuries accept in the Holy Quran "Al-Jin" is used in three meanings.
1- The creation "Jinns" who were created from Fire by Allah SWT.
2- All other creations, which are not visible to human, eyes, i.e. Microbes etc and it include the Angels.
3- People who are aliens, or are from far flung areas.
But when the Holy Qurans mentions Jinns as a separate creation of Allah SWT, it is very clearly identified as such. You should stop spreading lies against the Holy Quran.
Let me explain the Jinns Creation of Allah SWT, separate from the Humans, or Al-Ins in the Holy Quran.
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ (
51:56)
51:56 And [tell them that] I have not created the invisible beings and men to any end other than that they may [know and] worship Me.
Men and Jinns are two separate creations of Allah SWT, and both are created to Serve Him SWT. I
Your lies that Jinns are people and not Creation of Allah SWT from fire do not cut mustard.
You are not trying to say, that the Holy Quran did not include all the Humans in this verse and left out some and treated them as Jinns?
This Quranic verse like many many more, which always separate the Jinns as different creation from human, the Holy Quran has used two different words every time for two creations of Allah SWT, Al-Ins and Al-jin
Holy Quran also tells us the Jinns were created from fire.
وَخَلَقَ الْجَانَّ مِن مَّارِجٍ مِّن نَّارٍ (55:15)
55:15 whereas the invisible beings (JINNS) He has created out of a confusing flame of fire.
Min Maraj Min Nar means the fire of scorching winds (Nar as-samum) reflecting non-corporeal origin and composition of the Jinns. This is clarified in the verse 15:27
وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَانَ مِن صَلْصَالٍ مِّنْ حَمَإٍ مَّسْنُونٍ (15:26)
15:26 AND, INDEED, We have created man out of sounding clay, out of dark-slime transmuted.
وَالْجَآنَّ خَلَقْنَاهُ مِن قَبْلُ مِن نَّارِ السَّمُومِ (15:27)
15:27 whereas the invisible beings We had created, [long] before that, out of the fire of scorching winds.
The Holy Quran is very clear on the nature of Al-Jaans Plural of the Al-Jin. They are created from Naar as-samum Scorching fire. It is also made very clear that the Jinns were created before the humans created by Allah SWT.
I also know that you dont believe that Adam As was the first human, thats why I didnt mention the Verses where Iblis was order by Allah SWT to bow down to Adam, but Iblis refused because he thought he is superior to Adam due to his creation from fire and he was haughty.
The Holy Quran also Decreed that at the time of Jahiliah there were people who used to equate the Jinns with Allah SWT or equals to Allah SWT (nauzobillah); as they also falsely claimed Angels were daughters of Allah SWT (nauzobillah).
6:100 Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
إِلاَّ مَن رَّحِمَ رَبُّكَ وَلِذَلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لأَمْلأنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ (11:119)
11:119 [all of them,] save those upon whom thy Sustainer has bestowed His grace. And to this end has He created them [all. But [as for those who refuse to avail themselves of divine guidance,] that word of thy Sustainer shall be fulfilled: "Most certainly will I fill hell with invisible beings as well as with humans, all together!"
Allah SWT decreed that He SWT would fill the Hell with the humans and the Jinns. If Jinns were people as you falsely maintain, than why they are not included in humans? Why Jinns are mentioned separately, unless they are different creation altogether.
It had been made clear in the Holy Quran that the divine revelations sent to the Prophets were sent for men and Jinns both. It is clarified in the Holy Quran that the Jinns also became Muslim after hearing the recitation of the Holy Quran.
46:29 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an: when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).
First of all let me explain, before you twist the last word their people in the last part of the verse. You should read the translations presence thereof meaning the Jinns were present in the gathering, but because they are invisible beings even Prophet Muhammad SAW was not aware of their presence, they hear quietly the Holy Quran and then on their return to their own people, they warned them of their sins, i.e. conveyed them the message of the Holy Quran.
Allah SWT then sent this verse to Prophet Muhammad SAW, to inform him that the message of the Holy Quran is delivered to the Jinns as well by Prophet SAW.
If they were men as you claim, and as the Verse made abundantly clear, it was a company of them, i.e. a large group, they couldnt have stayed hidden from Prophet SAW and others who were present during the recitation. If they were strangers, they would have been recognised immediately in small, close knitted community of Muslims.
Even the possession by the Jinns is mentioned in the Holy Quran, not for anyone else but for our beloved Prophet SAW. Some of the unbelievers thought Prophet SAW was possessed by the Jinns or a Mad man (nauzobillah) when he SAW started to preach them Islam and start to recite the revealed verses of the Holy Quran to them.
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا رَجُلٌ بِهِ جِنَّةٌ فَتَرَبَّصُوا بِهِ حَتَّى حِينٍ (23:25)
23:25 (And some said): "He is only a man possessed: wait (and have patience) with him for a time."
If you know Arabic read the words Ina ho illa Rajalo bahi Jinnat the man possessed by Jinns. Therefore, it is confirmed by the Holy Quran that Jinns can posses humans, thats why Allah SWT denied that Prophet SAW was possessed, but he SAW off course was reciting to the Pagans the Word of Allah SWT which was so alien to them due to its message that they levy the charges on Prophet SAW that he is a man posses by jinns.
Do you want to maintain, the charge was that SAW was possessed by men or people as you claim?
أَوَلَمْ يَتَفَكَّرُواْ مَا بِصَاحِبِهِم مِّن جِنَّةٍ إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ (7:184)
7:184 Has it, then, never occurred to them that there is no madness whatever in [this] their fellowman? He is only a plain warner.
Madman or possessed as in 23:25 above, man possessed by Jinns, but he SAW is just a plain Warner, who is reciting them the verses of the Holy Quran to warn them of the awaiting torment Allah SWT has prepared for them in the life to come, unless they take heed of the message of the Holy Quran and submit themselves to one True God Allah SWT, Creator of the men and Jinns.
May Allah SWT guide you towards the truth and take you out of the influence of Miserable liars like Pervaiz and Mirza Kazzab.
If my guess is not wrong, you are the one who first debated with Sam Shamoun and then recently you have announced that you have left Islam?
Anyway, even if you are not the same person, I have to say I only saw few minutes of the video of the debate before stop watching. The person should have never debated with people who are spreading false and malicious rumours until and unless you are well verse with the Holy Quran and teachings of Islam.
If you were armed with the knowledge obtained from reading the translations and books by people like Pervaiz and Mirza Kazzab, then result would be no different as what happened to that person.
He not only given Islam the bad name, but in the end declared he is leaving Islam and becoming an Atheist. And to top it he announced him leaving Islam on the web site of the very people he debated with. In essence accepting their win over him.
Karim Sheikh the owner of Ahmedi.org congratulated him on leaving the Islam and became an Atheist on the same Islam and Muslim hating website. Same Karim Sheikh who has been proudly interviewed and presented by people who run the Cult forum.
The whole nexus is quite clear to those who understand and analyse the well-known facts. Nobody can doubt it, he has announced openly that he is leaving Islam also the message of Karim Sheikh taken from the Islam hating sites (involved in attacks on Islam and Muslims) is displayed on different forums, while Karim Sheikh association with certain people is also a well known fact.
I on the other hand always knew and criticised Ahmedi.org for their Islam and Muslims hating policies, and posted my condemnations on their forum. In the end, I was banned, because none of them could debate with me, therefore the easy solution was to ban me.
Dear crankthskunk, we all agree that word jinn means various things even in the quran. In verses of the quran meaning of word jinn depends on context within the quran and what is self evident. All I am interested in is to not to interpret the quran in such a way that it makes absolutely no sense.
In context of iblees and adam argument, word jinn cannot mean anything other than human being. It is fight over who has the right to rule on the earth ie rich or poor, strong or weak, knowledgeable or ignorant, authorized by allah or his adversary. Satan=adversary of divine rule.
In verse wa ma khalaqtul jinna wal insa, it is possible to interpret it your way as well but it makes more sense to interpret my way because here allah is talking about creatures with free will otherwise Allah would have said all my creation is for worshiping me ie allah would not need to separate these two. The reason they are separated in my view is because masses are more likely to be followers of clever people who lead them. So regardless you are leader or follower, you have to serve Allah. It is same category to which iblees belongs. Iblees is a clever guy but with evil intention ie he was hiding his true intention as to how he was going to rule people as compared to what adam wated to do for people.
In my view story of adam is a fight between imperialism and khilaafah. The rest of prophetic stories are all following the same pattern.
As for creation of jins before adam it may well be about how each character came about right in front of each other ie good and bad. Adam was moulded into shape one way and iblees another way just like you take a piece of a clay and mould it into any shape you desire. One ended up a person of good conduct towards others whereas the other who tried to use and abuse others. It is story of chiefs and their tribes and how adam is appointed over them as an overall chief.
As for possession of jinns, if you know people some times say to each other tere demaagh main keera hai. So if one talks unexpectedly or annoyingly people make such remarks toward each other ie too paaghal hai. Tujhe jinn ne qaaboo kiya huwa hai.
Also viruses and germs are invisible and they do infect people as well so I see no problem with such statements in the quran.
Allah states different kinds of earth materials from which he created adam likewise he talks about jinns ie to to explain to us their different of characters. This is not actual creation but an evolutionary process both for physical and psychological development in their own natural environment ie nature and nurture.
As I already explained the approach of the quran is very scientific. There is permanent conflict between make beliefs and the evidence based realities. So long as we do not let go blind faith idea we will not be able to appreciate the quran properly. Because make beliefs hold us back from conquering frontiers where no man has gone before or even from getting know what learned people have to say on certain matters.
The question of some of the chiefs that will adam rule the same way as some other rulers who shed blood before is not by angels but by people. MALAAIKA are also people but these are people who carry out will of Allah in his kingdom.
Since the whole quran has been misinterpreted and has remained so it is difficult to see what the quran is actually saying. For this one has to pay attention to each and every word, sentence etc etc. till one gets some sensible understanding of it. It is because we need to rediscover the message of the quran from the quran. It took me several decades to realise this much. Like most people here I too come from peeri mureedi back ground. it depends on what we have learned over life time to have any views about things. It is a very hard work, I too have been all over the place till I found that the quran was not interpreted correctly.
I know where these people are coming from who think I am not talking sense. They will come to know better so long as they keep on learning things in their life. Our worry should be how to educate our fellow human beings about Allah and his creation so that we all could get on with what we ned to do to better this world in the hope of better hereafter.
regards and all the best.
In context of iblees and adam argument, word jinn cannot mean anything other than human being. It is fight over who has the right to rule on the earth ie rich or poor, strong or weak, knowledgeable or ignorant, authorized by allah or his adversary. Satan=adversary of divine rule.
In verse wa ma khalaqtul jinna wal insa, it is possible to interpret it your way as well but it makes more sense to interpret my way because here allah is talking about creatures with free will otherwise Allah would have said all my creation is for worshiping me ie allah would not need to separate these two. The reason they are separated in my view is because masses are more likely to be followers of clever people who lead them. So regardless you are leader or follower, you have to serve Allah. It is same category to which iblees belongs. Iblees is a clever guy but with evil intention ie he was hiding his true intention as to how he was going to rule people as compared to what adam wated to do for people.
In my view story of adam is a fight between imperialism and khilaafah. The rest of prophetic stories are all following the same pattern.
As for creation of jins before adam it may well be about how each character came about right in front of each other ie good and bad. Adam was moulded into shape one way and iblees another way just like you take a piece of a clay and mould it into any shape you desire. One ended up a person of good conduct towards others whereas the other who tried to use and abuse others. It is story of chiefs and their tribes and how adam is appointed over them as an overall chief.
As for possession of jinns, if you know people some times say to each other tere demaagh main keera hai. So if one talks unexpectedly or annoyingly people make such remarks toward each other ie too paaghal hai. Tujhe jinn ne qaaboo kiya huwa hai.
Also viruses and germs are invisible and they do infect people as well so I see no problem with such statements in the quran.
Allah states different kinds of earth materials from which he created adam likewise he talks about jinns ie to to explain to us their different of characters. This is not actual creation but an evolutionary process both for physical and psychological development in their own natural environment ie nature and nurture.
As I already explained the approach of the quran is very scientific. There is permanent conflict between make beliefs and the evidence based realities. So long as we do not let go blind faith idea we will not be able to appreciate the quran properly. Because make beliefs hold us back from conquering frontiers where no man has gone before or even from getting know what learned people have to say on certain matters.
The question of some of the chiefs that will adam rule the same way as some other rulers who shed blood before is not by angels but by people. MALAAIKA are also people but these are people who carry out will of Allah in his kingdom.
Since the whole quran has been misinterpreted and has remained so it is difficult to see what the quran is actually saying. For this one has to pay attention to each and every word, sentence etc etc. till one gets some sensible understanding of it. It is because we need to rediscover the message of the quran from the quran. It took me several decades to realise this much. Like most people here I too come from peeri mureedi back ground. it depends on what we have learned over life time to have any views about things. It is a very hard work, I too have been all over the place till I found that the quran was not interpreted correctly.
I know where these people are coming from who think I am not talking sense. They will come to know better so long as they keep on learning things in their life. Our worry should be how to educate our fellow human beings about Allah and his creation so that we all could get on with what we ned to do to better this world in the hope of better hereafter.
regards and all the best.
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ap tora sa wazahat kar de
ALLAH na quran ma jo kaha hai wo kiya hai?
rasool ullah saw na ya irshad kiu farmaya kouch asa mafhoom hai keh farooq jis rasta sa guzarta hai use rasta sa jins or saitan bi nhi jata
or ary ya tu chor phir suleman as kia waqiya hai?
crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Mughal1
I knew what you would say about Adam AS, thats why I didnt quote the verses about Adam As and Iblis instead I made the passing reference to them. But the verses I quoted, 15:26 creation of Al-Insan i.e. humans from dark-slime transmuted, and the next verse 15:27 creation of Al-Jaan from fire well before the creation of humans.
You failed to refute my evidence from the Holy Quran, I know why because you simple cannot refute it. The concoction you read by liars do not work in case of these two clear verses, which establish without shadow of a doubt, (i) Jinns are separate creation from humans, with different make up, i.e. made from fire, (ii) created before humans.
You have to agree; humans are a reality, so why wouldnt Jinns be a reality? Even though we cannot see them.
These two verses were also selected because they refute your allegations and lies about H Adam As and Iblis,for simple reasons these verses affirms that Jinns were created before humans, Iblis was one of them.
There are limits to everything one should not descend below those limits. There is no doubt that following idiots and liars like Pervaiz have taken away your capacities to think logically, even though you are claiming you are thinking logically. Read the two verses again and explain me how your interpretation fits in?
Are you trying to say according to 15:26 Allah SWT created Al-insan from the sounding clay, i.e. created "the masses from the clay" according to you?
But He SWT long before He SWT created the masses, already created "very intelligent humans" with fire?
Oh please grow up. Like I said, you should have never debated with Sam Shamoun, but the problems with you Qadianis, either present or ex-Qadianis you have grown up in a closed-minded community, where you had been feed lies that you some how are superior to the Muslims who you think are inferior to you in their thinking or intelligence.
This I have learned after 5 years of experience. But the evidence suggest otherwise, none, and I repeat none including people like Dr. Zahid Aziz of Lahoris could last for even few posts against me.
Well, I didnt give examples of people usage of some pet sentences or proverbs. I gave you examples from the Holy Quran. It is insulting for you to equate the Verses of the Holy Quran with the saying of people. In the examples Allah SWT refuted the allegations levelled by the Pagans of Mecca against Holy Prophet SAW.
Those allegations were precise, they didnt blame or opposed Prophet SAW, because they thought he is mentally unstable (nauzobillah) but because they were afraid to hear the verses of the Holy Quran from him SAW and from the Muslims. Therefore, they levelled the accusations that he is possesses by the Jinns.
There is a famous incident when the Pagans selected Utba Ibn Rabia to negotiate with Prophet SAW. He offered Prophet SAW, all the riches he SAW wants, or if he SAW wants power they will make him their Chief, or if he SAW desires even bigger power, they will proclaim him SAW as The King of Arabian tribes. He said to Prophet SAW If the demons, which possess you (SAW), are difficult to be subdued, we will arrange help to subdue those demons.
Hearing that Prophet SAW answered him by reciting first 13 verses of Surah Fussilat. After hearing the verses of the Holy Quran Utba left quietly. Days after the meeting Utba stayed quite and avoided the company. After realising it the Quresh thought he is probably also have changed and become Muslim or worst. So they approached him, Utba told them what he heard from Prophet SAW was so unique that he had never heard anything like it.
I narrated this incident because it clarifies the verse of the Holy Quran, which I posted earlier. The Pagans were of the opinion that Prophet SAW was possessed by Jinns (nauzobillah) because of the miraculous nature of the verses of the Holy Quran.
Their misunderstanding was not because of the Character of Prophet SAW they knew him SAW from his SAW childhood. He SAW was known as very honest (Al-Amin) and very truthful (As-Sadiq) amongst them with best of the manners before receiving the glad tidings from Gabriel As. The verses of the Holy Quran were revealed to cast aside those allegations by the pagans. The verses are not allegorical but are in response to factual incidents recorded in the history of the time.
I have already told you in my first post, that Quran also includes in the meanings of Jinns all those creatures, which are unseen to human eyes, including microbes and Angels too. For this reason I selected specifically the verses, which are talking of the Creature Jinns, created from fire, categorically stated in the Holy Quran. As I said, earlier, human created from clay are a reality, so how could you say the next verse in the same context is describing intelligent humans and not the real creature? And why would wise human be created from fire and long before the human were created from clay?
Let me understand it, first human were created from fire, long before the current humans, and then they evolved and now are created from clay? Right!
Ah, your sense and sensibility.
So which people are Malaaika? Where were they and how they were to carry out Will of Allah SWT in His Kingdom? Where is that Kingdom situated at the time of Adam?
I am amazed at your logical fallacy you should use your own wisdom in understanding the Holy Quran rather than borrowed ideas and concoctions. It is also abundantly clear you are completely deprived of the knowledge of the Arabic language.
وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُواْ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاء وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ (2:30)
2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
First of all, if we take your fallacy on its face value that Adam was on earth as a man when people already existed on earth, then Allah SWT decided to choose Adam as Khalifa fil Ard, forcing the Angels i.e. the Chiefs according to you, to question the decision (nauzobillah).
Now if Adam were already a man living on earth, he wouldnt have to be created? Would he?
Secondly, Idh in Arabic, the closest translation to it in English would be Lo, means the sudden or unexpected occurrence or sudden turn in normal discourse.
Thirdly, you think that Allah SWT was indulged in selecting rulers on earth and were communicating with people who were carrying out His Will in His Kingdom, on earth?
Fourthly, why would that particular man i.e. Adam would have inherited earth, when there were people and also Angels, i.e. people who manage it for Allah SWT? Were they not inheriting earth at that time? And does Adam still inherit earth now, or it was just one off?
Supposedly, those people must have been managing the earth or the Kingdom for Allah SWT at the moment. Care to tell us who are those Angels currently in the world?
Also tell us; is that this Khaliffah still continuing? No change since Adam As?
And why would Allah SWT go through teaching Adam AS name of the things, which Angels did not know? Why Angels did not know the names of the things if they were people on earth and managing it?
Ridiculous I say. And tell us, which people are these who take peoples souls and where do they live?
4:97 When Angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge!
Dear crankthskunk, my overall understanding of quranic concepts is very different from masses. I do not have any dogmatic beliefs about islam but evidence based ideas. To me existence of Allah is provable by means of the quran and natural world using rules of wisdom.
To me the divine revelation is ultimate knowledge beyond which a human cannot go be he a prophet of Allah. However, realization of that knowledge only comes to one who had experienced and only as much one has experienced it. To me even the prophets are bound by this reality so it is very much possible that the prophets may not know things as their later followers may come to know. It is not part of their duty as prophets to know all there is to know but to know what the best they can in relation to their own time and place. The divine revelations could be thought of as advice books by parents for their children. Children will only know them as they grow and only as much as they make themselves aware of their surrounding realities. So humans are on a journey of self discoveries and along the way they are given some landmarks to help them guide themselves.
There are absolutes in divine books but not in human minds because we humans work with possibilities till we discover something thing to anchor our ides and beliefs upon.
So I look at the quran in this context ie absolutely divine but for human beings to discover things for themselves. Make beliefs are ok for suppositions but not for absolutes because that way they stop us from journey to dicoveries.
Coming to your points about existence of jinns, it will be easlier to see where you are coming from if you could put down all detail of your understanding of these creatures that you are talking about so that I could see what you are talking about otherwise we are just arguing over word and their meanings.
In my view I do not need any proof to prove self evident things but since you insist that I am wrong therefore ball is in your court to prove your concept. If we claim an entity that is physical but we have no ways and means to know about it then argument is useless. To me it only matters because look at what is happening to our people due to these make beliefs. So my problem with dangerous make beliefs is due to concern for fellow human beings who are suffering abuse at hands of other human beings who are exploiting them due to their own ignorance. Your points therefore need to be substantiated if you want people to remain in prison of such make beliefs that cannot be proven and at the same time remove chances of their improvement due to their reliance on these make beliefs.
regards and all the best.
To me the divine revelation is ultimate knowledge beyond which a human cannot go be he a prophet of Allah. However, realization of that knowledge only comes to one who had experienced and only as much one has experienced it. To me even the prophets are bound by this reality so it is very much possible that the prophets may not know things as their later followers may come to know. It is not part of their duty as prophets to know all there is to know but to know what the best they can in relation to their own time and place. The divine revelations could be thought of as advice books by parents for their children. Children will only know them as they grow and only as much as they make themselves aware of their surrounding realities. So humans are on a journey of self discoveries and along the way they are given some landmarks to help them guide themselves.
There are absolutes in divine books but not in human minds because we humans work with possibilities till we discover something thing to anchor our ides and beliefs upon.
So I look at the quran in this context ie absolutely divine but for human beings to discover things for themselves. Make beliefs are ok for suppositions but not for absolutes because that way they stop us from journey to dicoveries.
Coming to your points about existence of jinns, it will be easlier to see where you are coming from if you could put down all detail of your understanding of these creatures that you are talking about so that I could see what you are talking about otherwise we are just arguing over word and their meanings.
In my view I do not need any proof to prove self evident things but since you insist that I am wrong therefore ball is in your court to prove your concept. If we claim an entity that is physical but we have no ways and means to know about it then argument is useless. To me it only matters because look at what is happening to our people due to these make beliefs. So my problem with dangerous make beliefs is due to concern for fellow human beings who are suffering abuse at hands of other human beings who are exploiting them due to their own ignorance. Your points therefore need to be substantiated if you want people to remain in prison of such make beliefs that cannot be proven and at the same time remove chances of their improvement due to their reliance on these make beliefs.
regards and all the best.
fahid_asif
Senator (1k+ posts)
Naozbillah if Allah need your approval to create jinn aor ins on different basis? Allah says kun, its done. Allah can produce any creation as he wishes. You wash your head with islam. fool
PkRevolution
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Why don't you understand so simple thing. I think you don't want to. Jinns are not Humans. You are on wrong path.
They are made of fire not like us humans. You don't know Humans definition.
Did you hear word human rights? Do you really think it is valid also for Jinns? There is something wrong with you people. Grow up man.
fahid_asif
Senator (1k+ posts)
aaj k mplvi ki manoo gay to behak jao ga. kyon k aaj fitnay ka daour ha. may be some one talking truth, lakin itni ikhtrafat hain k such baat ko mannana mushkil aur jhoot ko mannana asaan ho gya ha. is liye humain qaroon e oola jis main her taraf aman tha, us daour k ulma se rajoo kerna chahye.
biomat
Minister (2k+ posts)
Assalam-o-alaikum.
Brother @crankthskunk i told you in other thread HUD HUD INSAAN YA PARINDA, we placed all the logics but he left & now he is here with his buddy ehraz.;)
Also i told you that their main aim is to make doubts in mind according to Logical Positivism, end result become aethiest..
Thanks for your detail & logical reply..
I have posted some videos about this mentality in other thread..
Brother @crankthskunk i told you in other thread HUD HUD INSAAN YA PARINDA, we placed all the logics but he left & now he is here with his buddy ehraz.;)
Also i told you that their main aim is to make doubts in mind according to Logical Positivism, end result become aethiest..
Thanks for your detail & logical reply..
I have posted some videos about this mentality in other thread..
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crankthskunk
Chief Minister (5k+ posts)
Ridiculous ideas
Mughal1
First of all, you are basing your arguments on the human knowledge. Human knowledge is very limited. Everything, which you rely upon are based on theories. Theories are not science but efforts by human to understand things, which do not make sense to them.
For example, Einstein said in his theory of E=Mc2 speed of light is constant. But now this theory is challenged since 1998, which had been taken as a gospel truth earlier. So what would you say, about the speed of light? What was your understanding as a proven truth of science is now shaky, it soon would be shattered.
Therefore, those who make fun of the Holy Quran based on their prejudices and on science theories on the two verses describing travel between heaven and earth, what would they say on varying speed of light?
Tell me before the invention of microscopes were human able to see Microbes? If the humans couldnt see them did it means they didnt exist in the past?
Similarly, if we cannot see the Jinns what is the big deal? Simply, we do not have the means to see them, does not mean they do not exists. Like Microbes existed when we didnt have the microscopes. Your arguments are based on ridiculous evidence.
There are many things we cannot see because of the light spectrum; jinns are not the only creatures.
The human eye only sees wavelengths from 390 to 750nm. In terms of frequency this corresponds to band between 400-890 THz. The eyes maximum sensitivity is around 555 nm or 540 THz, in the green spectrum.
Here is a video, in which the scientists say, out of a 2000 miles tape the visible spectrum is about an inch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfS5Qn0wn2o
After seeing this video, please tell am I not justified to call your reasoning rather ridiculous? Out of 2000 miles an inch? Do you understand now, almost the whole of 2000 miles of light spectrum we simply cannot see?
Imagine what else we cannot see apart from the Jinns?
Thats why I laugh on people like you, if pervaiz was alive I would have taken him on, and defeat him in his own game.
Mughal1
First of all, you are basing your arguments on the human knowledge. Human knowledge is very limited. Everything, which you rely upon are based on theories. Theories are not science but efforts by human to understand things, which do not make sense to them.
For example, Einstein said in his theory of E=Mc2 speed of light is constant. But now this theory is challenged since 1998, which had been taken as a gospel truth earlier. So what would you say, about the speed of light? What was your understanding as a proven truth of science is now shaky, it soon would be shattered.
Therefore, those who make fun of the Holy Quran based on their prejudices and on science theories on the two verses describing travel between heaven and earth, what would they say on varying speed of light?
Tell me before the invention of microscopes were human able to see Microbes? If the humans couldnt see them did it means they didnt exist in the past?
Similarly, if we cannot see the Jinns what is the big deal? Simply, we do not have the means to see them, does not mean they do not exists. Like Microbes existed when we didnt have the microscopes. Your arguments are based on ridiculous evidence.
There are many things we cannot see because of the light spectrum; jinns are not the only creatures.
The human eye only sees wavelengths from 390 to 750nm. In terms of frequency this corresponds to band between 400-890 THz. The eyes maximum sensitivity is around 555 nm or 540 THz, in the green spectrum.
Here is a video, in which the scientists say, out of a 2000 miles tape the visible spectrum is about an inch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfS5Qn0wn2o
After seeing this video, please tell am I not justified to call your reasoning rather ridiculous? Out of 2000 miles an inch? Do you understand now, almost the whole of 2000 miles of light spectrum we simply cannot see?
Imagine what else we cannot see apart from the Jinns?
Thats why I laugh on people like you, if pervaiz was alive I would have taken him on, and defeat him in his own game.
